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Quoting Bravo45 (Thread starter): Despite the peace process that demanded Israel halt all settlement activities. This is if I understand right, its either a part of, or on top of what Israel calls 'natural expansion' of existing settlements. All illegal under international law BTW. |
Quoting Bravo45 (Thread starter): "It is Israel's duty to provide its citizens with a place to live." |
Quoting Bravo45 (Thread starter): "It is Israel's duty to provide its citizens with a place to live." |
Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 2): I think he forgot to add in the end, "even if it was on stolen lands". |
Quoting Mir (Reply 3): Yes, Israel should provide its citizens a place to live, but I don't see why it's so necessary for that place to be in Palestine. If Israel wants to show that it is committed to a two-state solution, this isn't the way to go about it. |
Quoting Bravo45 (Thread starter): "It is Israel's duty to provide its citizens with a place to live." |
Quoting Blackbird (Reply 10): It seems Israel will never learn. These settlements are causing a lot of problems, and they're basically flipping the bird and doing it anyway. |
Quoting CaptainJon (Reply 9): So my question is, who enforces international law? If somebody breaks it, what are the consequences? Apparently nothing in Israel's case, but if something was done, what can be done? |
Quoting N1120A (Reply 15): Actually, it is, particularly in the US where treaties supercede all laws other than the Constitution. |
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): I support Israel's right to populate these newly conquered lands. Israel won control of the West Bank fair & square when it was unilaterally attacked by Arabs in 1967. |
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): Israel pushed back and rightly has a claim on these lands. |
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): This has how the results of war have panned out throughout human history. It sends a clear message: "if you attack me, I I will fight back and might even take some of your lands. Hence, don't attack me." Again, good for Israel. |
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): Here's what the Palestinians can do to get their West Bank land back: Israel extended an olive branch by withdrawing from Gaza, in return for an expectation of peace by residents of Gaza. If Gaza can become democratic, prosperous, and STOP sending missiles into Israel, they will be demonstating to the world that they are peaceful. THis can help set the stage for an eventual Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank. |
Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 2): I think he forgot to add in the end, "even if it was on stolen lands". |
Quoting Mir (Reply 3): Is there something wrong with the land that's not in the Palestinian territories or something? |
Quoting Doona (Reply 6): I hate to bring this up, and if it offends anyone, I'm sorry. But doesn't that statement sound alot like the "Lebensraum"-bullshit? |
Quoting N229NW (Reply 8): Especially when you consider that they are actively recruiting people to live in the country, despite strained resources... |
Quoting CaptainJon (Reply 9): Apparently nothing in Israel's case, |
Quoting CaptainJon (Reply 9): but if something was done, what can be done? |
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11): Didn't they just go through the heartburn of tearing said settlements out of the Gaza strip? |
Quoting CaptainJon (Reply 12): I think the people that move into them to be part of the problem. Not just because the army is then forced to police the area in order to keep a small village from harms way, its like these people just want to cause problems. Israel is a small country I understand this, but there are much nicer, more beautiful, safer areas to live where people want you, not shun you. Why can't these people just live in the Tel Aviv suburbs? Let the Palestinians have their share of the land. |
Quoting CaptainJon (Reply 12): I do think a two-state solution needs to happen, but unfortunately I don't think it will solve the problems. You give them 50 hectares they want a hundred. Give them a hundred they'll want a thousand. |
Quoting CaptainJon (Reply 12): The Palestinians were at one point given a lot more than they ever would anticipated but Arafat said no. He wanted it all. |
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): I support Israel's right to populate these newly conquered lands. |
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): Israel won control of the West Bank fair & square when it was unilaterally attacked by Arabs in 1967. Israel pushed back and rightly has a claim on these lands. |
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): This has how the results of war have panned out throughout human history. |
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): having a larger number of Israeli citizens living their strengthens the negotiating hand of the Israel's. |
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): Israel is harming its image with continued new settlements. |
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): they will be demonstating to the world that they are peaceful. |
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11): Didn't they just go through the heartburn of tearing said settlements out of the Gaza strip? What is their long term strategy here, besides making peace impossible? |
Quoting Doona (Reply 13): In the end, most options require the cooperation of the state in question. |
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): I support Israel's right to populate these newly conquered lands. Israel won control of the West Bank fair & square when it was unilaterally attacked by Arabs in 1967. |
Quoting CaptainJon (Reply 12): I do think a two-state solution needs to happen |
Quoting Baroque (Reply 21): True, but it seems fair to assume that they are not that stupid, so what is their plan? |
Quoting Joni (Reply 20): True, with the exception that the UN Security Council may authorize UN member states to enforce it's will using force, as was done in the first Gulf War but not the 2003 invasion. |
Quoting QR332 (Reply 17): Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): I support Israel's right to populate these newly conquered lands. Israel won control of the West Bank fair & square when it was unilaterally attacked by Arabs in 1967. Never mind that Israel was the first to attack, eh? Or that Palestinians are being ethnically cleansed so that Israelis can live on this land? |
Quoting QR332 (Reply 17): the Gaza settlements are useless, especially compared to the West Bank ones |
Quoting Joni (Reply 20): Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): I support Israel's right to populate these newly conquered lands. Israel won control of the West Bank fair & square when it was unilaterally attacked by Arabs in 1967. So if in the future the Arabs push the Jews into the sea, Israel's territory will be "fair and square" theirs? You're on a very slippery slope, IMO. |
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 24): Egypt, Jordan and Syria were massing troops on the Israeli border in 1967. Israel's attack was merely a pre-emptive defensive manoeuver. |
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 24): Why are they useless? What is stopping the resident Palestinians from creating a wealthy society? As I said, Israel created a wealthy society on the same parched land, right next door. The Palestinian problems are 100% self-inflicted. They should focus on business, farming, peaceful co-existence and democracy. That's the ticket to prosperity. |
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 24): Israel knows it will only lose a war once (which will result in its destruction). So it remains strong to prevent this from happening. But I will take your bait anyway.....if Israel aggressively attacks a neighbour and is forced back into the sea with Israel overrun by some Arab nation, then yes, that would be fair and square. All of Israel's military actions are largely focused on self-defense, so your scenario is hypothetical. |
Quoting QR332 (Reply 17): Or that Palestinians are being ethnically cleansed so that Israelis can live on this land? |
Quoting QR332 (Reply 22): The current status quo is pretty much what Israel wants... |
Quoting TheCol (Reply 27): Are you accusing Israel of actively committing genocide? |
Quoting Joni (Reply 20): True, with the exception that the UN Security Council may authorize UN member states to enforce it's will using force, as was done in the first Gulf War but not the 2003 invasion. |
Quoting Blackbird (Reply 10): It seems Israel will never learn. |
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 25): Any bets as to how long this thread'll last before it's shut down? |
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 25): It's the same old thread, with all the usual suspects. |
Quoting QR332 (Reply 26): Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 24): Egypt, Jordan and Syria were massing troops on the Israeli border in 1967. Israel's attack was merely a pre-emptive defensive manoeuver. This is a heavily disputed point, and i'm not going to get into it. |
Quoting QR332 (Reply 26): You also forget that the Palestinians don't enjoy the help of US aid. |
Quoting TheCol (Reply 27): That's why the international community must step up the pressure on Israel to make a cooperative peace deal. At the end of the day, most Israelis don't want to be embroiled in conflict for another century. |
Quoting Sbworcs (Reply 29): The UN should do something about this |
Quoting Mir (Reply 31): Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 30): and Hudson River Real Estate. Oh come on, if you're going to use that tired old line you could at least get the river right... |
Quoting QR332 (Reply 26): Gaza is a tiny strip of land with a gigantic population; even today it is one of the most densely populated areas on earth. The little arable land it has cannot support the population, |
Quoting QR332 (Reply 26): Just goes to show how much you know about Palestine. While the southern, mostly unpopulated half of Palestine is desert, the other 50% isn't. |
Quoting QR332 (Reply 28): Ethnic cleansing is not limited to genocide, it also includes the forced transfer of populations based on race. Israel's foundation was based on ethnic cleansing, and these practices have continued today. |
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 30): http://www.usaid.gov/wbg/ http://theocracywatch.org/us_aid_palestine_brit_tzedek.htm Perhaps not since the terrorist Hamas Gov't was 'voted' in but certainly in the past. . . . http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...8.htm |
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 33): Gee whiz....sounds just like Japan, or Hong Kong, or Singapore, or Bermuda....the list goes on. All of which are prosperous. Again, there is no reason why Gaza cannot also be prosperous. They share a border with Egypt and there is no reason why a flourishing mercantile economy cannot be created....they've had almost 60 years to get their act together. A focus on democracy, rule of law, elimination of corruption, separation of church & state, equal rights for women.....these are the building blocks of prosperity. Land is almost irrelevant. Palestine has yet to learn these lessons. |
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 33): There is no one "Palestine". There is Gaza and the West Bank. Both are different. The West Bank is more prosperous and indeed, as reported in a recent Canadian newspaper, many West Bank Palestinians want nothing to do with Gaza because of the corruption, instability & poverty. Gaza and the West Bank are going in 2 different directions. |
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 33): When Israel was formed, most Arab states threw out there established Jewish communuties many of which has existed for hundreds of years. That sounds like ethnic cleansing to me. Israel welcomed all of the these refugees. Funny how not a single Arab state welcomed any Palestinian refugees.....even to this day. It begs the 60-year old question.....why not? |
Quoting Mir (Reply 31): Oh come on, if you're going to use that tired old line you could at least get the river right.... |
Quoting N1120A (Reply 35): Interesting that a site called "Theocracy Watch" doesn't cover Israel, given the inherent religious discrimination. |
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 33): Again, there is no reason why Gaza cannot also be prosperous. |
Quoting QR332 (Reply 34): That aid is nothing compared to what comes in to Israel, |
Quoting QR332 (Reply 26): You also forget that the Palestinians don't enjoy the help of US aid. |
Quoting QR332 (Reply 34): Please tell me your not seriously comparing the aid Palestinians receive to the aid Israel receives? |
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 36): Sure there is . . . . too busy trying to bomb the crap out of their neighbors and crying the woe is me song to the world . . . rather than picking themselves up by their bootstraps. |
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 36): The best option, once again, is to sit down at the negotiation table and knock off this tit for tat destruction of each other. That is the best option . . . |
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 36): Of course, with the current Gov't in Palestine being a Terrorist Organization, that's not going to happen. |
Quoting QR332 (Reply 37): You really haven't been keeping up, have you? Only Gaza is ruled by Hamas now, the Palestinian gov't at the moment is made up of an independent party that was brought into power in the summer - they control the West Bank. |
Quoting QR332 (Reply 37): But, how can we carry on discussions when every time we sit down to have peace talks, things like new settlements get announced? |
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 38): So, when will the Terrorist Hamas leave Gaza? |
Quoting Baroque (Reply 21): True, but it seems fair to assume that they are not that stupid, so what is their plan? |
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 24): All of Israel's military actions are largely focused on self-defense, so your scenario is hypothetical. |
Quoting TheCol (Reply 27): Are you accusing Israel of actively committing genocide? |
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 33): Gee whiz....sounds just like Japan, or Hong Kong, or Singapore, or Bermuda....the list goes on. All of which are prosperous. Again, there is no reason why Gaza cannot also be prosperous. |
Quoting Baroque (Reply 39): Well they were only just elected, when the residents of Gaza decided - in one of these things called an election, and a part of the democratic process - they did not like the corrupt western backed administration that the west was backing. |
Quoting Baroque (Reply 39): FWIW, Hamas when elected had declared a truce, but was that good enough, not on your nelly. |
Quoting Baroque (Reply 39): Why did we have to deal with the Israeli government back in the mid 70s when it was headed by an ex-terrorist? |
Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 42): |
Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 42): With all my sympathy to the Palestinian people |
Quoting QR332 (Reply 34): Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt all have similar schemes, even if in some countries it is much more restricted. But, none of these countries can economically handle millions of refugees becoming normal citizens - Egypt is already insanely overpopulated and quite poor, Lebanon is still politically very unstable and economically in a bad state, and Syria has pretty much integrated Palestinians |
Quoting QR332 (Reply 34): That aid is nothing compared to what comes in to Israel, and is only basic humanitarian aid. Please tell me your not seriously comparing the aid Palestinians receive to the aid Israel receives? |
Quoting QR332 (Reply 37): Never mind that half the time they don't even have running electricity or water because Israel flips the switch whenever they feel like it? Yeah, that really helps an economy prosper |
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 38): The Billions of Dollars collected by oil rich states and not much trickles to their Palestinian brethren? Seems to me something terribly wrong with that. I believe more humanitarian aid comes into Palestine from the US than comes from their Arab neighbors . . . or did until the Hamas gained power |
Quoting Joni (Reply 40): Quoting TheCol (Reply 27): Are you accusing Israel of actively committing genocide? Not genocide, but they have driven Palestinians from their homes and stolen the land. |
Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 44): All this, while the vastly wealthy Arab nations, flush for years with Petro-Dollar funded wealth, have provided the poor Palestinians with little to no relief. To do so would work against their cause, which is to generate many generations of desperate refugees willing to die. Pathetic, really. New towns and settlements continue to spring up in all kinds of areas in all different countries in the world all the time, for all different reasons, and no one makes mention of it. But, there is always a double-standard when discusion involves Israel. That is because Israel is Jewish and there is no reasoning to be had with the anti-semites of the world. Hatred, of any kind, is a nasty thing. It pollutes the soul. Just take a good look at the venomous statements made by the circle of visicious anti-semites right here on our A.net website and you will see exactly what I mean. They constantly make up all kinds of hypothetical situations involving the Jewish people in general and Israel in particular. Like a constant paranoia. |
Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 46): What is Israels Aid compared to Egypts from the US? |
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 38): Apparently not . . . thanks for that info. So, when will the Terrorist Hamas leave Gaza? Do you not think that Israel would be more prone to discussion if they knew a terrorist organization wasn't governing their neighbor? |
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 38): Like I said earlier in this thread . . . Israel needs to stop this . . . it cannot pretend to negotiate and at the same time announce an expansion in it's settlements. But to answer your question: HOW? Well, however simplistic this may sound, "just do it". Have to start somewhere. Toss out the first, or second, or third, Olive Branch. The other point I wanted to bring up - which you mentioned earlier - is aid from neighboring Arab and other Middle East Countries . . . seems to me Gaza, Palestine, the West Bank, where-ever, has been rather left hung out to dry by their non-Israeli neighbors. The Billions of Dollars collected by oil rich states and not much trickles to their Palestinian brethren? Seems to me something terribly wrong with that. I believe more humanitarian aid comes into Palestine from the US than comes from their Arab neighbors . . . or did until the Hamas gained power. |
Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 44): Like it or not, Israel's control of the borders, checkpoints and roads right down to the sea, and to the river in the West Bank and in Gaza is precisely what has allowed Israel to repel the THOUSANDS of attempted suicide bombers AND MASS WEAPONRY from entering Israel. Anyone who can read a military map of the region can see what I'm talking about. |
Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 44): Most Israelis now understand that they cannot live together in peace with the Palestinians who have been penned up in refugee camps for fifty some odd years---and brainwashed into blaming Israelis and Jews for all their many sorrows. AND, the desperate Palestinians, deserted by the entire Arab and Islamic world---except being used as human artillery, and propaganda to be used against Israel---are climbing over the security fences, risking death, just to work SECRETLY in Israel, so that they and their families do not die of starvation. |
Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 44): All this, while the vastly wealthy Arab nations, flush for years with Petro-Dollar funded wealth, have provided the poor Palestinians with little to no relief. To do so would work against their cause, which is to generate many generations of desperate refugees willing to die. Pathetic, really. |
Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 44): New towns and settlements continue to spring up in all kinds of areas in all different countries in the world all the time, for all different reasons, and no one makes mention of it. But, there is always a double-standard when discusion involves Israel. That is because Israel is Jewish and there is no reasoning to be had with the anti-semites of the world. |
Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 46): There would not be millions to integrate now if they had done it many years ago. |
Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 46): What is Israels Aid compared to Egypts from the US? |
Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 46): Maybe the Rich oil Cousins from down the road could build them a power plant and sewers. No it is easier to blame someone else. |
Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 46): WIth all of the oil money they could of built the Palestinains Las Vegas in the Middle of the Desert. Look at Dubai building Islands for the Rich Sheikhs |
Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 46): How did they "steal" the land? Seems that all of the Jewish folks who had been driven from their homes and countries in 48 should also get "their" property and homes back. And what % of the refuges had been told to leave by their own leaders who had started the war. |
Quoting QR332 (Reply 34): All Palestinian refugees in Jordan carry temporary citizenships, the only difference between the temporary and full citizenship being that those carrying temporary citizenships have to renew their passports every 2 years. More than 50% of Jordan is originally Palestinian. |
Quoting QR332 (Reply 34): But, none of these countries can economically handle millions of refugees becoming normal citizens - |
Quoting QR332 (Reply 34): Egypt is already insanely overpopulated and quite poor, |
Quoting QR332 (Reply 34): Lebanon is still politically very unstable and economically in a bad state |
Quoting QR332 (Reply 34): Palestinian refugees in the Gulf regularly get help from the governments, and are taken care of for the most part. |
Quoting QR332 (Reply 34): So, again, don't run your mouth about something you know nothing about, especially when you are talking to a Palestinian who himself carries the citizenship of another Arab country. |
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 36): Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 33): Again, there is no reason why Gaza cannot also be prosperous. Sure there is . . . . too busy trying to bomb the crap out of their neighbors and crying the woe is me song to the world . . . rather than picking themselves up by their bootstraps. |
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 36): The best option, once again, is to sit down at the negotiation table and knock off this tit for tat destruction of each other. That is the best option . . . |
Quoting QR332 (Reply 37): Never mind that half the time they don't even have running electricity or water because Israel flips the switch whenever they feel like it? |
Quoting Joni (Reply 40): Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 33): Gee whiz....sounds just like Japan, or Hong Kong, or Singapore, or Bermuda....the list goes on. All of which are prosperous. Again, there is no reason why Gaza cannot also be prosperous. Those territories aren't under foreign occupation. Even though Israel has "withdrawn" from Gaza they still control all the borders and frequently raid the area. |
Quoting QR332 (Reply 48): Egypt has a huge problem with overpopulation, Jordan has very limited resources, especially when it comes to water, Lebanon is a small country with a weak economy, and Syria also has a weak economy. |