Despite the peace process that demanded Israel halt all settlement activities. This is if I understand right, its either a part of, or on top of what Israel calls 'natural expansion' of existing settlements. All illegal under international law BTW.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7158072.stm

"It is Israel's duty to provide its citizens with a place to live."

I'll let it hang in the air.

[Edited 2007-12-23 11:20:11]

Quoting Bravo45 (Thread starter): Despite the peace process that demanded Israel halt all settlement activities. This is if I understand right, its either a part of, or on top of what Israel calls 'natural expansion' of existing settlements. All illegal under international law BTW.

Hello Bravo,long time no see  
Israel is not and will never be concerned about international law.
I wish you Happy Eid,Christmas and new year 

Alex!!!

Quoting Bravo45 (Thread starter): "It is Israel's duty to provide its citizens with a place to live."

I think he forgot to add in the end, "even if it was on stolen lands".

Is there something wrong with the land that's not in the Palestinian territories or something?

Yes, Israel should provide its citizens a place to live, but I don't see why it's so necessary for that place to be in Palestine. If Israel wants to show that it is committed to a two-state solution, this isn't the way to go about it.

-Mir

Quoting Bravo45 (Thread starter): "It is Israel's duty to provide its citizens with a place to live."

Great...this shouldn't have any repercussions at all 

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 2): I think he forgot to add in the end, "even if it was on stolen lands".

Quoting Mir (Reply 3): Yes, Israel should provide its citizens a place to live, but I don't see why it's so necessary for that place to be in Palestine. If Israel wants to show that it is committed to a two-state solution, this isn't the way to go about it.

  ....

My last post was deleted..but I do believe there is a double standard in how things are done...and that is what I'm find to be troublesome...

Quoting Bravo45 (Thread starter): "It is Israel's duty to provide its citizens with a place to live."

I hate to bring this up, and if it offends anyone, I'm sorry. But doesn't that statement sound alot like the "Lebensraum"-bullshit?

Cheers
Mats

Quoting Doona (Reply 6): But doesn't that statement sound alot like the "Lebensraum"-bullshit?

In this context, yes it does somewhat.

-Mir

Quoting Doona (Reply 6): I hate to bring this up, and if it offends anyone, I'm sorry. But doesn't that statement sound alot like the "Lebensraum"-bullshit?

Especially when you consider that they are actively recruiting people to live in the country, despite strained resources...

Sorry for my ignorance, but who makes international law? Whenever Israel does something that pisses the rest of the world off, they all cry "Against international law!!" Ironic when its the terrorists themselves that say it too.....Regardless of the heinous crimes they commit.

So my question is, who enforces international law? If somebody breaks it, what are the consequences? Apparently nothing in Israel's case, but if something was done, what can be done?

It seems Israel will never learn. These settlements are causing a lot of problems, and they're basically flipping the bird and doing it anyway.

The fact that Israel never has or will care about international law is not a badge of honor -- it's a disgrace.


Andrea Kent

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 10): It seems Israel will never learn. These settlements are causing a lot of problems, and they're basically flipping the bird and doing it anyway.

Didn't they just go through the heartburn of tearing said settlements out of the Gaza strip? What is their long term strategy here, besides making peace impossible?

As a Jewish American, I should also add I think the settlements need to go. I have been to Israel a couple of times already, I do love Israel with all my heart, while I do find the settlements to be causing a lot of problems, but I think it isn't the entire problem altogether. I think the people that move into them to be part of the problem. Not just because the army is then forced to police the area in order to keep a small village from harms way, its like these people just want to cause problems. Israel is a small country I understand this, but there are much nicer, more beautiful, safer areas to live where people want you, not shun you. Why can't these people just live in the Tel Aviv suburbs? Let the Palestinians have their share of the land.

I do think a two-state solution needs to happen, but unfortunately I don't think it will solve the problems. You give them 50 hectares they want a hundred. Give them a hundred they'll want a thousand.

The Palestinians were at one point given a lot more than they ever would anticipated but Arafat said no. He wanted it all. And I'm afraid Hamas and the rest won't give up arms and live in peace until they control every last centimetre. Who knows, even if they did control it all, they will want to conquer the rest of the middle east. So frustrating this tit for tat conflict, I'm afraid one day there won't be anything left for either side to have.

Quoting CaptainJon (Reply 9): So my question is, who enforces international law? If somebody breaks it, what are the consequences? Apparently nothing in Israel's case, but if something was done, what can be done?

Nobody and everybody. International law is not really law, it's basically an agreement between two or more nations. In the case of Israel and it's settlements, it's the 4th Geneva Convention (and the Hague Conventions of 1907) that comes into play, as the Palestinian Territories in effect are occupied by Israel, which is a violation. So is planting your own citizens in an occupied area, which is basically colonization.

When it comes to enforcement, there's the problem with all international law. If enforcement capabilities even exist, states have to acknowledge the enforcing body's right to do so (for example signing and ratifying the Rome Treaty on the International Criminal Court). And even then, there's not really anything that forces the nation to submit to outside enforcement; however the international community can (but hardly ever does) use certain means to put pressure on the state in question. Trade sanctions is one such method. AFAIK, a nation can be ordered to pay punitive damages, which has been paid out in country-to-country complaints in the International Court of Justice, which is a UN court with a mandate to arbitrate disputes between nations, pertaining to international law or treaties. But usually the only desired outcome would be for violations to cease, and when more atrocious acts have been committed, responsible individuals might be brought to justice, be it in a domestic court, an international ad-hoc tribunal, or in the International Criminal Court.

In the end, most options require the cooperation of the state in question. The good thing about that is, that states are pretty vain. Most want to look good, and through cooperation one can usually shed some of the bad rep one gets from doing stupid things. That's why Saddam and Kim Jong-Il let IAEA inspectors into their countries. The international system is built on international cooperation, basically by not forcing anyone to do anything against their will. Sadly, that leaves room for all kinds of nastiness to slip through the cracks. For example, most countries that today practice Sharia Law have signed the Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination against all Women. So why don't they constantly violate them? It's possible for countries to submit reservations to the UN before signing, and therefore overlook the rights included in the text that the country does not believe are necessary.

Yeah, the system sure does suck ass, but it's the only way the world's nations would be willing to participate.

Cheers
Mats

I support Israel's right to populate these newly conquered lands. Israel won control of the West Bank fair & square when it was unilaterally attacked by Arabs in 1967. Israel pushed back and rightly has a claim on these lands. Good for them. This has how the results of war have panned out throughout human history. It sends a clear message: "if you attack me, I I will fight back and might even take some of your lands. Hence, don't attack me." Again, good for Israel.

Israel will eventually have to negotiate a land-for-peace swap involving all or large tracts of the West Bank.....having a larger number of Israeli citizens living their strengthens the negotiating hand of the Israel's.

Having said that, Israel is harming its image with continued new settlements.

Here's what the Palestinians can do to get their West Bank land back: Israel extended an olive branch by withdrawing from Gaza, in return for an expectation of peace by residents of Gaza. If Gaza can become democratic, prosperous, and STOP sending missiles into Israel, they will be demonstating to the world that they are peaceful. THis can help set the stage for an eventual Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank.

Quoting Doona (Reply 13): International law is not really law,

Actually, it is, particularly in the US where treaties supercede all laws other than the Constitution.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15): Actually, it is, particularly in the US where treaties supercede all laws other than the Constitution.

That's not what I meant. In the case of the US, and other countries, international laws can have the full force of domestic law, but that's in the US, not anywhere else. But on the international stage, it's nothing like domestic legal system. That's simply because the international legal system is not reliant on coercive enforcement, like a domestic system that relies on the police for law enforcement.

Cheers
Mats

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): I support Israel's right to populate these newly conquered lands. Israel won control of the West Bank fair & square when it was unilaterally attacked by Arabs in 1967.

Never mind that Israel was the first to attack, eh? Or that Palestinians are being ethnically cleansed so that Israelis can live on this land?

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): Israel pushed back and rightly has a claim on these lands.

"Pushed back"? They invaded huge chunks of lands from 4 of their neighbors! That is not "pushing back", especially when it was them that attacked first. Settlements exist to this day in two of the said conquered areas.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): This has how the results of war have panned out throughout human history. It sends a clear message: "if you attack me, I I will fight back and might even take some of your lands. Hence, don't attack me." Again, good for Israel.

Going by your logic, the Nazis should have been allowed to keep all of what they invaded in Europe; after all, they were the superior force  

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): Here's what the Palestinians can do to get their West Bank land back: Israel extended an olive branch by withdrawing from Gaza, in return for an expectation of peace by residents of Gaza. If Gaza can become democratic, prosperous, and STOP sending missiles into Israel, they will be demonstating to the world that they are peaceful. THis can help set the stage for an eventual Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank.

The withdrawal from Gaza was not the extension of an "olive branch", it was purely a PR move by Sharon; the Gaza settlements are useless, especially compared to the West Bank ones, and Sharon knew what would happen if the Israeli army withdrew. And your talking about missles being sent into Israel... 2/3rds of Gaza's populations relies on external food aid, and on water + electricity from Israel... do you have ANY idea how many times all of the listed things have been cut off from Gaza?

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 2): I think he forgot to add in the end, "even if it was on stolen lands".

That was a given, I suppose.

Quoting Mir (Reply 3): Is there something wrong with the land that's not in the Palestinian territories or something?

Nothing other than the fact that they already have that and they want more. And this while there are millions of ethnically cleansed Palestinians have the right to return being prevented from returning.

Quoting Doona (Reply 6): I hate to bring this up, and if it offends anyone, I'm sorry. But doesn't that statement sound alot like the "Lebensraum"-bullshit?

Pretty much yeah. A belief in superiority, need of land theory and I am sure much more.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 8): Especially when you consider that they are actively recruiting people to live in the country, despite strained resources...

I recently read that the number of immigrants from Russia to Israel have fallen primarily due to improving economic conditions in the region which is particularly worrying for Israel as it depends on immigration to keep Jewish percentage high. Not to forget the only requirement to immigrate to Israel and thus these colonies is being Jewish. Pathetic!!!

Quoting CaptainJon (Reply 9): Apparently nothing in Israel's case,

  

Quoting CaptainJon (Reply 9): but if something was done, what can be done?

Saddam was in violation of International Law. Basically force is not used unless a resolution is passed in the Security Counsil under chapter 11. Many have been voted on guess who veto's it?
Furthermore, IIRC the General Assembly votes every so many years regarding the conflict, there are always the same 7 or so negative votes; Israel, US, Israel, Naru, Palau, Tuvalu, Micronesia and the Marshall Islands.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11): Didn't they just go through the heartburn of tearing said settlements out of the Gaza strip?

Yes but its just as important to mention in the same breath that they confiscated more land in the West Bank the same year than was 'given back' in Gaza.

Quoting CaptainJon (Reply 12): I think the people that move into them to be part of the problem. Not just because the army is then forced to police the area in order to keep a small village from harms way, its like these people just want to cause problems. Israel is a small country I understand this, but there are much nicer, more beautiful, safer areas to live where people want you, not shun you. Why can't these people just live in the Tel Aviv suburbs? Let the Palestinians have their share of the land.

  

Quoting CaptainJon (Reply 12): I do think a two-state solution needs to happen, but unfortunately I don't think it will solve the problems. You give them 50 hectares they want a hundred. Give them a hundred they'll want a thousand.

So long as what they are demanding is rightfully theres it ought to happen. Israel has confiscated so much land in that small area, its unbelievable. Israel's strategy is nothing other than to make it impossibly inconvenient to give that land back, so that its people feel there is no other way for them but to keep it. Its a fatal strategy, one that will further radicalise reasonables on both sides

Quoting CaptainJon (Reply 12): The Palestinians were at one point given a lot more than they ever would anticipated but Arafat said no. He wanted it all.

Here we part company, unfortunately. I am no fan of Arafat, but its a media myth, what was offered was a joke. In the words of the Israel vice prime minister Shlomo Ben Ami who was there in negotiations, 'I would not have accepted it if I was a Palestinian'. We can further discuss it if you want, but there is no way it could have been called reasonable offer let alone the media catch phrase of 'a generous offer'.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): I support Israel's right to populate these newly conquered lands.

Interesting.. Which century is this?

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): Israel won control of the West Bank fair & square when it was unilaterally attacked by Arabs in 1967. Israel pushed back and rightly has a claim on these lands.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): This has how the results of war have panned out throughout human history.

Okay then you ought to stop complaining about those tho vow to 'push Israel into the sea' because by the same rules, its all fair game. But my guess is that you believe only Israel is justified and others can't do it.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): having a larger number of Israeli citizens living their strengthens the negotiating hand of the Israel's.

Precisely as I state above, you are being remarkably clear about your ways here.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): Israel is harming its image with continued new settlements.

I am not surprised, Israel's image is your only concern as opposed to those who lost their homes and lands, I think you'd be in favor of a complete ban on such media coverage so this problem too could be resolved.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): they will be demonstating to the world that they are peaceful.

Just like Israel is showing itself to be peaceful??

Quoting QR332 (Reply 17): Going by your logic, the Nazis should have been allowed to keep all of what they invaded in Europe; after all, they were the superior force

No no, this law only applies to Israel.  
Doona already has mentioned Lebensraum. And not surprisingly he didn't respond.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11): Didn't they just go through the heartburn of tearing said settlements out of the Gaza strip? What is their long term strategy here, besides making peace impossible?

Their strategy is to populate all the better parts of the West Bank and drive as many Palestinians out of East Jerusalem as possible. This way if they eventually have to concede to a two-state solution they'd have all the better parts with the indigenous Palestinian population consigned to practically useless wastelands.

Quoting Doona (Reply 13): In the end, most options require the cooperation of the state in question.

True, with the exception that the UN Security Council may authorize UN member states to enforce it's will using force, as was done in the first Gulf War but not the 2003 invasion.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): I support Israel's right to populate these newly conquered lands. Israel won control of the West Bank fair & square when it was unilaterally attacked by Arabs in 1967.

So if in the future the Arabs push the Jews into the sea, Israel's territory will be "fair and square" theirs? You're on a very slippery slope, IMO.

Quoting CaptainJon (Reply 12): I do think a two-state solution needs to happen

In fact Israel's actions on the ground may make a two-state solution infeasible, which may ironically end up causing the issue to be resolved in a one-state solution. In this state Jews would be (or would become) a minority, so the illegal settlements can turn out to be a catastrophic strategic blunder from Israel's side.

Quoting Joni (Reply 20): In this state Jews would be (or would become) a minority, so the illegal settlements can turn out to be a catastrophic strategic blunder from Israel's side.

True, but it seems fair to assume that they are not that stupid, so what is their plan?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 21): True, but it seems fair to assume that they are not that stupid, so what is their plan?

The current status quo is pretty much what Israel wants... its allowed them to take away quite a bit of the fertile land in the West Bank by closing it off with the wall (there wasn't that much in the West Bank to begin with), and to control all of the valuable resources there. The current situation also allows them to continue to build settlements, especially around East Jerusalem, while making conditions in Jerusalem for Palestinians worse and worse in order to force them to leave. This has been done in several ways; many houses in East Jerusalem have been knocked down for "not having a permit", and entry and exit in Jerusalem are very restricted.

Quoting Joni (Reply 20): True, with the exception that the UN Security Council may authorize UN member states to enforce it's will using force, as was done in the first Gulf War but not the 2003 invasion.

You are right, that's why I wrote "most" options, and I left the Security Council out for a reason. Action under Chapter VII is impossible in this case, as the US can veto anything. Anyway, even if the US wouldn't veto such a resolution, other members probably would as well.

Not that I think intervening by using force in Israel is a good idea, just trying to make a point.

Cheers
Mats

Quoting QR332 (Reply 17): Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): I support Israel's right to populate these newly conquered lands. Israel won control of the West Bank fair & square when it was unilaterally attacked by Arabs in 1967. Never mind that Israel was the first to attack, eh? Or that Palestinians are being ethnically cleansed so that Israelis can live on this land?

Egypt, Jordan and Syria were massing troops on the Israeli border in 1967. Israel's attack was merely a pre-emptive defensive manoeuver.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 17): the Gaza settlements are useless, especially compared to the West Bank ones

Why are they useless? What is stopping the resident Palestinians from creating a wealthy society? As I said, Israel created a wealthy society on the same parched land, right next door. The Palestinian problems are 100% self-inflicted. They should focus on business, farming, peaceful co-existence and democracy. That's the ticket to prosperity.

Quoting Joni (Reply 20): Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14): I support Israel's right to populate these newly conquered lands. Israel won control of the West Bank fair & square when it was unilaterally attacked by Arabs in 1967. So if in the future the Arabs push the Jews into the sea, Israel's territory will be "fair and square" theirs? You're on a very slippery slope, IMO.

Israel knows it will only lose a war once (which will result in its destruction). So it remains strong to prevent this from happening. But I will take your bait anyway.....if Israel aggressively attacks a neighbour and is forced back into the sea with Israel overrun by some Arab nation, then yes, that would be fair and square. All of Israel's military actions are largely focused on self-defense, so your scenario is hypothetical.

Any bets as to how long this thread'll last before it's shut down?

It's the same old thread, with all the usual suspects. You guys will never solve or resolve anything here.



        

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 24): Egypt, Jordan and Syria were massing troops on the Israeli border in 1967. Israel's attack was merely a pre-emptive defensive manoeuver.

This is a heavily disputed point, and i'm not going to get into it.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 24): Why are they useless? What is stopping the resident Palestinians from creating a wealthy society? As I said, Israel created a wealthy society on the same parched land, right next door. The Palestinian problems are 100% self-inflicted. They should focus on business, farming, peaceful co-existence and democracy. That's the ticket to prosperity.

Just goes to show how much you know about Palestine. While the southern, mostly unpopulated half of Palestine is desert, the other 50% isn't. There are large amounts of fertile land, especially in the northern Galilee region, a very large coastline, and quite a few resources. Gaza is a tiny strip of land with a gigantic population; even today it is one of the most densely populated areas on earth. The little arable land it has cannot support the population, and it has huge dependencies on outside aid. The West Bank has some arable land, but a lot of it has been stolen by Israel, either through settlements or the security wall.

And what do you mean they are 100% self-inflicted? How can you possibly build an economy when you cannot even transport goods from one city to the next? In the past 7 years alone over 100 restaurants, factories and shops closed in Bethlehem alone because there was so little tourism and because they could not transport goods to be sold in other cities. Gaza's situation is even worse. Huge amounts of trees and farms have been ripped up, killing profits for farmers. If your going to spread bullshit on these forums, at least base them on some reality.

You also forget that the Palestinians don't enjoy the help of US aid. Before you say the Arabs can help, Israel restricts all money entering the Palestinian territories, and it is very difficult to even perform simple bank transfers.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 24): Israel knows it will only lose a war once (which will result in its destruction). So it remains strong to prevent this from happening. But I will take your bait anyway.....if Israel aggressively attacks a neighbour and is forced back into the sea with Israel overrun by some Arab nation, then yes, that would be fair and square. All of Israel's military actions are largely focused on self-defense, so your scenario is hypothetical.

How the fuck are moves like the one discussed in the thread starter self-defense?! Especially while peace talks are on-going?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 17): Or that Palestinians are being ethnically cleansed so that Israelis can live on this land?

Are you accusing Israel of actively committing genocide?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 22): The current status quo is pretty much what Israel wants...

That's why the international community must step up the pressure on Israel to make a cooperative peace deal. At the end of the day, most Israelis don't want to be embroiled in conflict for another century.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 27): Are you accusing Israel of actively committing genocide?

Ethnic cleansing is not limited to genocide, it also includes the forced transfer of populations based on race. Israel's foundation was based on ethnic cleansing, and these practices have continued today.

As far as i'm concerned, building settlements for Jews only and moving Palestinians out of their land to make space for them counts as ethnic cleansing.

Quoting Joni (Reply 20): True, with the exception that the UN Security Council may authorize UN member states to enforce it's will using force, as was done in the first Gulf War but not the 2003 invasion.

But that will never happen in this case because it is Israel we are talking about who can violate as many laws, treaties or whatever you want to call them with impunity knowing that any resolution to stop them would never be approved by the UN security council due to certain countries vetoing.

The UN should do something about this but I get the feeling that it will be another case of "It's Isreal - lets turn the other way!

Without reading the thread, only the source article:

I think Israel needs to cease it's expansion plans . . . . nothing good will come of any of this until the Palestinians and Israelis stop butchering each other (spare me the lecture on who started what) and get down to brass tacks negotiation. Anything other than that, at this point, will only serve to escalate the distrust and hatred on both sides.

Now, on to the thread:

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 10): It seems Israel will never learn.

They are not alone. It's a two edged sword. Tit for tat. Always been so.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 25): Any bets as to how long this thread'll last before it's shut down?

Long as necessary as long as it doesn't get personal . . .

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 25): It's the same old thread, with all the usual suspects.

That much is true . . . like a Gun Control thread.

But, there is new news to bicker over this time . . . at least that's a start.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 26): Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 24): Egypt, Jordan and Syria were massing troops on the Israeli border in 1967. Israel's attack was merely a pre-emptive defensive manoeuver. This is a heavily disputed point, and i'm not going to get into it.

Why not? We're dragging everything else into this . . .

Lets get that out in the open as well.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 26): You also forget that the Palestinians don't enjoy the help of US aid.

  
http://www.usaid.gov/wbg/
http://theocracywatch.org/us_aid_palestine_brit_tzedek.htm

Perhaps not since the terrorist Hamas Gov't was 'voted' in but certainly in the past. . . .
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200601/s1557058.htm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 27): That's why the international community must step up the pressure on Israel to make a cooperative peace deal. At the end of the day, most Israelis don't want to be embroiled in conflict for another century.

ANd keep the pressure on the Palestinians as well . . .

Quoting Sbworcs (Reply 29): The UN should do something about this

UN       

Sorry . . . . waste us $$$$ and Hudson River Real Estate.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 30): and Hudson River Real Estate.

Oh come on, if you're going to use that tired old line you could at least get the river right....  

-Mir

Quoting Mir (Reply 31): Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 30): and Hudson River Real Estate. Oh come on, if you're going to use that tired old line you could at least get the river right...

Odd how the US acts as if it hates the UN, but continues to use it in perhaps the most biased fashion of any state and screams like all getup if there are suggestions it move elsewhere.

On the matter of vetoes in relation to Israel, that made me look them up again and since 1972, there have been 42 (plus or minus one, I refuse to recount a fourth time) and all have been whatever to 1, with up to four abstentions - mostly UK, Australia when it was there, Denmark, France (not often). Thailand, Ireland and Norway also get in the act. Germany has been prominent of late, and amazingly Bulgaria and Cameroon have also felt the whip. Romania, Japan, Slovakia and Peru are also latecomers to the lash. But opposite to what I thought, the UK and France have not been sufficiently encouraged to add their vetoes or even to vote against. Needless to say, that number of vetoes handsomely exceeds even the great country of NIET, and really China will have to brush up its performance.

Most odd is that China (2) and Libya (1) did not participate in a couple of votes back in 73 and 76.

Curiously, with its reflexive veto, the US has also prevented the UN Sec Ccl from condemning terrorism on a number of occasions. Oh, dear, could that be misread I wonder?

Some of the vetoes seem pretty bloody minded, for example
"On the killing by Israeli forces of several UN employees and the destruction of the World Food Programme (WFP) warehouse"
The full resolution is more detailed and appeals to the Geneva convention. Once again, is there wider significance to that veto?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 26): Gaza is a tiny strip of land with a gigantic population; even today it is one of the most densely populated areas on earth. The little arable land it has cannot support the population,

Gee whiz....sounds just like Japan, or Hong Kong, or Singapore, or Bermuda....the list goes on. All of which are prosperous. Again, there is no reason why Gaza cannot also be prosperous. They share a border with Egypt and there is no reason why a flourishing mercantile economy cannot be created....they've had almost 60 years to get their act together. A focus on democracy, rule of law, elimination of corruption, separation of church & state, equal rights for women.....these are the building blocks of prosperity. Land is almost irrelevant. Palestine has yet to learn these lessons.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 26): Just goes to show how much you know about Palestine. While the southern, mostly unpopulated half of Palestine is desert, the other 50% isn't.

There is no one "Palestine". There is Gaza and the West Bank. Both are different. The West Bank is more prosperous and indeed, as reported in a recent Canadian newspaper, many West Bank Palestinians want nothing to do with Gaza because of the corruption, instability & poverty. Gaza and the West Bank are going in 2 different directions.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 28): Ethnic cleansing is not limited to genocide, it also includes the forced transfer of populations based on race. Israel's foundation was based on ethnic cleansing, and these practices have continued today.

When Israel was formed, most Arab states threw out there established Jewish communuties many of which has existed for hundreds of years. That sounds like ethnic cleansing to me. Israel welcomed all of the these refugees. Funny how not a single Arab state welcomed any Palestinian refugees.....even to this day. It begs the 60-year old question.....why not?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 30): http://www.usaid.gov/wbg/ http://theocracywatch.org/us_aid_palestine_brit_tzedek.htm Perhaps not since the terrorist Hamas Gov't was 'voted' in but certainly in the past. . . . http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...8.htm

That aid is nothing compared to what comes in to Israel, and is only basic humanitarian aid. Please tell me your not seriously comparing the aid Palestinians receive to the aid Israel receives?

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 33): Gee whiz....sounds just like Japan, or Hong Kong, or Singapore, or Bermuda....the list goes on. All of which are prosperous. Again, there is no reason why Gaza cannot also be prosperous. They share a border with Egypt and there is no reason why a flourishing mercantile economy cannot be created....they've had almost 60 years to get their act together. A focus on democracy, rule of law, elimination of corruption, separation of church & state, equal rights for women.....these are the building blocks of prosperity. Land is almost irrelevant. Palestine has yet to learn these lessons.

The whole point is that Gaza has been under occupation since 1967... the Israelis never allowed its economy to develop. You can repeat what your saying over and over again but it doesn't change anything. Also, all of the countries above have much better circumstances than Gaza, and all of the above countries had Western help in development. Furthermore, they do not have millions of refugees with no work and nowhere to go. Land is 100% relevant. Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore, and Bermuda all had very different circumstances, and the West played a big role in their development.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 33): There is no one "Palestine". There is Gaza and the West Bank. Both are different. The West Bank is more prosperous and indeed, as reported in a recent Canadian newspaper, many West Bank Palestinians want nothing to do with Gaza because of the corruption, instability & poverty. Gaza and the West Bank are going in 2 different directions.

Do you see me lecturing you about your own country on these forums? Time and time again you have proved your ignorance and sheer extremism when it comes to this subject, so please, don't tell me how Palestinians from the West Bank think or what my country is made up of. At the end of the day we are all Palestinians, and even if we disagree with what is happening in Gaza, we consider it 100% Palestinian.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 33): When Israel was formed, most Arab states threw out there established Jewish communuties many of which has existed for hundreds of years. That sounds like ethnic cleansing to me. Israel welcomed all of the these refugees. Funny how not a single Arab state welcomed any Palestinian refugees.....even to this day. It begs the 60-year old question.....why not?

You have got to be fucking kidding me. Do you know what passport I carry? Jordanian. And I am originally Palestinian, from the West Bank city of Nablus. All Palestinian refugees in Jordan carry temporary citizenships, the only difference between the temporary and full citizenship being that those carrying temporary citizenships have to renew their passports every 2 years. More than 50% of Jordan is originally Palestinian.

Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt all have similar schemes, even if in some countries it is much more restricted. But, none of these countries can economically handle millions of refugees becoming normal citizens - Egypt is already insanely overpopulated and quite poor, Lebanon is still politically very unstable and economically in a bad state, and Syria has pretty much integrated Palestinians.

Palestinian refugees in the Gulf regularly get help from the governments, and are taken care of for the most part.

So, again, don't run your mouth about something you know nothing about, especially when you are talking to a Palestinian who himself carries the citizenship of another Arab country.

As for Jewish refugees:
a) As a Palestinian, I had nothing to do with that, and will not apologize about something that my people were not even responsible for. Especially since the Jews themselves did the exact same thing to the Palestinians.
b) Quite a bit of the expulsions were in response to the creation of 800,000 Palestinian refugees. Its not like the West are innocent when it comes to things like this; Japanese internment camps anyone?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 30):

Interesting that a site called "Theocracy Watch" doesn't cover Israel, given the inherent religious discrimination.

Quoting Mir (Reply 31): Oh come on, if you're going to use that tired old line you could at least get the river right....

It's New York City, the place sucks, who cares what river it's on. Second only in "suckiness" to LA.   Hudson River, East River, they all look the same . . . and smell the same too.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 35): Interesting that a site called "Theocracy Watch" doesn't cover Israel, given the inherent religious discrimination.

Wasn't supposed to there N1120A. The topic was Aid to Palestine . . . .

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 33): Again, there is no reason why Gaza cannot also be prosperous.

Sure there is . . . . too busy trying to bomb the crap out of their neighbors and crying the woe is me song to the world . . . rather than picking themselves up by their bootstraps.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 34): That aid is nothing compared to what comes in to Israel,

Irrelevent.

You clearly stated:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 26): You also forget that the Palestinians don't enjoy the help of US aid.

And you're wrong. Humanitarian Aid, like it or not - is aid. Well until the terrorist Hamas were voted into power . . .

Quoting QR332 (Reply 34): Please tell me your not seriously comparing the aid Palestinians receive to the aid Israel receives?

Irrelevent again. Not what you stated. But for the record, no, I'm not comparing the level or type of aid. Only showing your error.

The best option, once again, is to sit down at the negotiation table and knock off this tit for tat destruction of each other. That is the best option . . .

Of course, with the current Gov't in Palestine being a Terrorist Organization, that's not going to happen.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 36): Sure there is . . . . too busy trying to bomb the crap out of their neighbors and crying the woe is me song to the world . . . rather than picking themselves up by their bootstraps.

Never mind that half the time they don't even have running electricity or water because Israel flips the switch whenever they feel like it? Yeah, that really helps an economy prosper  

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 36): The best option, once again, is to sit down at the negotiation table and knock off this tit for tat destruction of each other. That is the best option . . .

Which is exactly what the Palestinians are doing right now. But, how can we carry on discussions when every time we sit down to have peace talks, things like new settlements get announced?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 36): Of course, with the current Gov't in Palestine being a Terrorist Organization, that's not going to happen.

You really haven't been keeping up, have you? Only Gaza is ruled by Hamas now, the Palestinian gov't at the moment is made up of an independent party that was brought into power in the summer - they control the West Bank.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 37): You really haven't been keeping up, have you? Only Gaza is ruled by Hamas now, the Palestinian gov't at the moment is made up of an independent party that was brought into power in the summer - they control the West Bank.

Apparently not . . . thanks for that info.

So, when will the Terrorist Hamas leave Gaza?

Do you not think that Israel would be more prone to discussion if they knew a terrorist organization wasn't governing their neighbor?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 37): But, how can we carry on discussions when every time we sit down to have peace talks, things like new settlements get announced?

Like I said earlier in this thread . . . Israel needs to stop this . . . it cannot pretend to negotiate and at the same time announce an expansion in it's settlements.

But to answer your question: HOW? Well, however simplistic this may sound, "just do it". Have to start somewhere. Toss out the first, or second, or third, Olive Branch.

The other point I wanted to bring up - which you mentioned earlier - is aid from neighboring Arab and other Middle East Countries . . . seems to me Gaza, Palestine, the West Bank, where-ever, has been rather left hung out to dry by their non-Israeli neighbors. The Billions of Dollars collected by oil rich states and not much trickles to their Palestinian brethren? Seems to me something terribly wrong with that. I believe more humanitarian aid comes into Palestine from the US than comes from their Arab neighbors . . . or did until the Hamas gained power.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 38): So, when will the Terrorist Hamas leave Gaza?

Well they were only just elected, when the residents of Gaza decided - in one of these things called an election, and a part of the democratic process - they did not like the corrupt western backed administration that the west was backing.

Now we know that the US thinks it gets to chose which governments it want to deal with regardless of who gets elected, do we get to do this with governments we do not like?

FWIW, Hamas when elected had declared a truce, but was that good enough, not on your nelly.

Why did we have to deal with the Israeli government back in the mid 70s when it was headed by an ex-terrorist?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 21): True, but it seems fair to assume that they are not that stupid, so what is their plan?

They don't want that to happen, but it may be that the status quo won't last forever and a two-state solution may wind up impossible, because of Israel's actions.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 24): All of Israel's military actions are largely focused on self-defense, so your scenario is hypothetical.

Um.. well..

Quoting TheCol (Reply 27): Are you accusing Israel of actively committing genocide?

Not genocide, but they have driven Palestinians from their homes and stolen the land.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 33): Gee whiz....sounds just like Japan, or Hong Kong, or Singapore, or Bermuda....the list goes on. All of which are prosperous. Again, there is no reason why Gaza cannot also be prosperous.

Those territories aren't under foreign occupation. Even though Israel has "withdrawn" from Gaza they still control all the borders and frequently raid the area.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 39): Well they were only just elected, when the residents of Gaza decided - in one of these things called an election, and a part of the democratic process - they did not like the corrupt western backed administration that the west was backing.

You forgot to add   

I certainly have no qualms about the democratic process that elected the Hamas . . . it's Gaza's right to choose their Government, not anyone elses. It's every country's right to choose their Gov't.

That said: Electing a Terrorist Organization to run your Government speaks volumes doesn't it.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 39): FWIW, Hamas when elected had declared a truce, but was that good enough, not on your nelly.

Really? Show me.

They were pretty peaceful in Lebanon too weren't they . . .

Quoting Baroque (Reply 39): Why did we have to deal with the Israeli government back in the mid 70s when it was headed by an ex-terrorist?

Rabin? A Terrorist?   

Better acquaint yourself with the original terrorist: Arafat. The Israeli's should have capped him off in the 1960s when they had him in their gun sights . . .

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 38): So, when will the Terrorist Hamas leave Gaza?

When the Terrorist Israelis give them back Palestine.....and feel free to delete my post as usual

With all my sympathy to the Palestinian people

Alex!!!

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 42):

Surprised there isn't a picture of Chavez in here   

Great quality post by the way . . . as usual.

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 42): With all my sympathy to the Palestinian people

See that's the problem with you - and others.

You cannot have sympathy for BOTH sides. And that is one thing that will help resolve this issue. Partisan BS and hatred will not. Something you might try to overcome as you mature.

If both sides of the conflict could reflect for a moment on the destruction both have caused each other instead of grabbing the next missile or bomb and lobbing into their neighbors lap, perhaps things would progress . . .

BOTH sides of this issue are guilty as charged in that respect.

Just from a military standpoint, the roads and borders through and around the West Bank and Gaza are obviously essential for Israel's saftey.
Like it or not, Israel's control of the borders, checkpoints and roads right down to the sea, and to the river in the West Bank and in Gaza is precisely what has allowed Israel to repel the THOUSANDS of attempted suicide bombers AND MASS WEAPONRY from entering Israel.
Anyone who can read a military map of the region can see what I'm talking about.

Most Israelis now understand that they cannot live together in peace with the Palestinians who have been penned up in refugee camps for fifty some odd years---and brainwashed into blaming Israelis and Jews for all their many sorrows.
AND, the desperate Palestinians, deserted by the entire Arab and Islamic world---except being used as human artillery, and propaganda to be used against Israel---are climbing over the security fences, risking death, just to work SECRETLY in Israel, so that they and their families do not die of starvation.

All this, while the vastly wealthy Arab nations, flush for years with Petro-Dollar funded wealth, have provided the poor Palestinians with little to no relief. To do so would work against their cause, which is to generate many generations of desperate refugees willing to die.
Pathetic, really.

New towns and settlements continue to spring up in all kinds of areas in all different countries in the world all the time, for all different reasons, and no one makes mention of it.
But, there is always a double-standard when discusion involves Israel.
That is because Israel is Jewish and there is no reasoning to be had with the anti-semites of the world.

Hatred, of any kind, is a nasty thing. It pollutes the soul.
Just take a good look at the venomous statements made by the circle of visicious anti-semites right here on our A.net website and you will see exactly what I mean.
They constantly make up all kinds of hypothetical situations involving the Jewish people in general and Israel in particular. Like a constant paranoia.

If only all their negative energy could be turned into good.

The pity of it all--------

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 43): You cannot have sympathy for BOTH sides

Why should I if the aggressors and the invaders are the Israelis.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 43): BOTH sides of this issue are guilty

Sure but only the Palestinians are the terrorists....Give me a break !

Alex!!!

Quoting QR332 (Reply 34): Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt all have similar schemes, even if in some countries it is much more restricted. But, none of these countries can economically handle millions of refugees becoming normal citizens - Egypt is already insanely overpopulated and quite poor, Lebanon is still politically very unstable and economically in a bad state, and Syria has pretty much integrated Palestinians

There would not be millions to integrate now if they had done it many years ago.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 34): That aid is nothing compared to what comes in to Israel, and is only basic humanitarian aid. Please tell me your not seriously comparing the aid Palestinians receive to the aid Israel receives?

What is Israels Aid compared to Egypts from the US?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 37): Never mind that half the time they don't even have running electricity or water because Israel flips the switch whenever they feel like it? Yeah, that really helps an economy prosper

Maybe the Rich oil Cousins from down the road could build them a power plant and sewers. No it is easier to blame someone else.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 38): The Billions of Dollars collected by oil rich states and not much trickles to their Palestinian brethren? Seems to me something terribly wrong with that. I believe more humanitarian aid comes into Palestine from the US than comes from their Arab neighbors . . . or did until the Hamas gained power

  

WIth all of the oil money they could of built the Palestinains Las Vegas in the Middle of the Desert. Look at Dubai building Islands for the Rich Sheikhs

Quoting Joni (Reply 40): Quoting TheCol (Reply 27): Are you accusing Israel of actively committing genocide? Not genocide, but they have driven Palestinians from their homes and stolen the land.

How did they "steal" the land? Seems that all of the Jewish folks who had been driven from their homes and countries in 48 should also get "their" property and homes back. And what % of the refuges had been told to leave by their own leaders who had started the war.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 44): All this, while the vastly wealthy Arab nations, flush for years with Petro-Dollar funded wealth, have provided the poor Palestinians with little to no relief. To do so would work against their cause, which is to generate many generations of desperate refugees willing to die. Pathetic, really. New towns and settlements continue to spring up in all kinds of areas in all different countries in the world all the time, for all different reasons, and no one makes mention of it. But, there is always a double-standard when discusion involves Israel. That is because Israel is Jewish and there is no reasoning to be had with the anti-semites of the world. Hatred, of any kind, is a nasty thing. It pollutes the soul. Just take a good look at the venomous statements made by the circle of visicious anti-semites right here on our A.net website and you will see exactly what I mean. They constantly make up all kinds of hypothetical situations involving the Jewish people in general and Israel in particular. Like a constant paranoia.

     

Remember they are not Anti semites, they are Anti Zionist.
        

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 46): What is Israels Aid compared to Egypts from the US?

Israel has gotten more every year for the past ten - the vast majority of it military.

In 2006, Israel recieved $2,593,800,000, of which $2,257,200,000 was military. Egypt recieved $1,786,500,000, of which $1,288,200,000 was military. Palestine got $139,300,000.

For the entire period of time for which data is available (going back to 1946), the US has given Israel over $158 billion. Egypt has been given over $99 billion. Palestine has gotten over $1.9 billion (i.e less than what Israel gets in one year)

This is all USAID information available from http://qesdb.usaid.gov/cgi-bin/broke...y_list.sas&_service=default&unit=R and doesn't take into account private donors.

-Mir

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 38): Apparently not . . . thanks for that info. So, when will the Terrorist Hamas leave Gaza? Do you not think that Israel would be more prone to discussion if they knew a terrorist organization wasn't governing their neighbor?

A terrorist organisation hasn't been governing their neighbour for 6 months, and Hamas wasn't even in power for that long. I think the answer is quite clear.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 38): Like I said earlier in this thread . . . Israel needs to stop this . . . it cannot pretend to negotiate and at the same time announce an expansion in it's settlements. But to answer your question: HOW? Well, however simplistic this may sound, "just do it". Have to start somewhere. Toss out the first, or second, or third, Olive Branch. The other point I wanted to bring up - which you mentioned earlier - is aid from neighboring Arab and other Middle East Countries . . . seems to me Gaza, Palestine, the West Bank, where-ever, has been rather left hung out to dry by their non-Israeli neighbors. The Billions of Dollars collected by oil rich states and not much trickles to their Palestinian brethren? Seems to me something terribly wrong with that. I believe more humanitarian aid comes into Palestine from the US than comes from their Arab neighbors . . . or did until the Hamas gained power.

They have not been left dry. Israel denies the entry of much of the money that comes in from the Arab world, they control what money flows in and out of the West Bank and Gaza. Their claims? "The money might be used for terrorist purposes." When Israel demolished thousands of homes in Gaza 5 years ago, it was the UAE that rebuilt them. Qatar contributed millions in humanitarian aid during the time Hamas was in government and none was coming in.

Also, a lot of the donations that come into Palestine used to be pocketed by the PLO. That is why the people elected Hamas - not because they are bloodthirsty, but because Fatah is extremely corrupt. After the events of the summer, they have now discovered that Fatah is the lesser of two evils.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 44): Like it or not, Israel's control of the borders, checkpoints and roads right down to the sea, and to the river in the West Bank and in Gaza is precisely what has allowed Israel to repel the THOUSANDS of attempted suicide bombers AND MASS WEAPONRY from entering Israel. Anyone who can read a military map of the region can see what I'm talking about.

Eh? The suicide bombings only started AFTER Israel invaded the West Bank and Gaza in 1967. They came as a result of the invasion, and have only increased since.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 44): Most Israelis now understand that they cannot live together in peace with the Palestinians who have been penned up in refugee camps for fifty some odd years---and brainwashed into blaming Israelis and Jews for all their many sorrows. AND, the desperate Palestinians, deserted by the entire Arab and Islamic world---except being used as human artillery, and propaganda to be used against Israel---are climbing over the security fences, risking death, just to work SECRETLY in Israel, so that they and their families do not die of starvation.

How are the Israelis not responsible for their sorrows? They invaded their land, kicked them out and forced them to live in refugee camps with no prospects for their future, and have ensured that they are completely isolated for decades. That is not to mention that up until the Oslo accords Arabic literature wasn't even allowed in the West Bank, schools were closed half the time, etc.

My dad lived in Nablus in the West Bank during the 1970s. As a schoolboy he was frequently the victim of collective punishment whenever someone stood up to the Israeli Army.

So please, don't even try to convince me that Israel is not responsible for today's situation.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 44): All this, while the vastly wealthy Arab nations, flush for years with Petro-Dollar funded wealth, have provided the poor Palestinians with little to no relief. To do so would work against their cause, which is to generate many generations of desperate refugees willing to die. Pathetic, really.

Because Israel has blocked much of it from coming in. The Arabs have made plenty of mistakes, but there is only so much they can do.

Also, why would the Arabs want to generate more refugees? Firstly, practically none of the terrorists involved in international plots are Palestinians, most Palestinian fighters are only involved in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Please name me just one Arab nation that uses Palestinian refugees to further their goals.

It is in the interest of the Arab countries for the problem to be solved, as the refugees are a huge strain on their economies, especially in countries such as Lebanon and Jordan.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 44): New towns and settlements continue to spring up in all kinds of areas in all different countries in the world all the time, for all different reasons, and no one makes mention of it. But, there is always a double-standard when discusion involves Israel. That is because Israel is Jewish and there is no reasoning to be had with the anti-semites of the world.

What part of the land isn't theres to build on do you not get? When we talk about settlements, we are not talking about them building them inside Israeli territories. These are constructed on Palestinian territory in the West Bank, at the expense of the Palestinian people.

This has nothing to do with religion or the fact that they are Jewish. This is to do with the fact that they are building on land that is not theirs to begin with, and the fact that they are kicking Palestinians off it so they can build their settlements.

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 46): There would not be millions to integrate now if they had done it many years ago.

The Arab countries back then were in an even weaker economic situation. How do you suggest they could have done that, exactly? Egypt has a huge problem with overpopulation, Jordan has very limited resources, especially when it comes to water, Lebanon is a small country with a weak economy, and Syria also has a weak economy.

No country can absorb hundreds of thousands of refugees without there being serious problems.

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 46): What is Israels Aid compared to Egypts from the US?

Egypt is just behind Israel in terms of aids. But, two points:
a) Egypt is ruled by Hosni Mobarak, who is extremely corrupt and yet enjoys the full support of the US.
b) Israel's population is 7.1 million. Egypt's is 80.3 million.

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 46): Maybe the Rich oil Cousins from down the road could build them a power plant and sewers. No it is easier to blame someone else.

Maybe... if Israel allowed it.

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 46): WIth all of the oil money they could of built the Palestinains Las Vegas in the Middle of the Desert. Look at Dubai building Islands for the Rich Sheikhs

We Palestinians don't want the desert. We want to live in OUR land, which is our right. Even if they build the Palestinian Las Vegas in the desert, few would come.

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 46): How did they "steal" the land? Seems that all of the Jewish folks who had been driven from their homes and countries in 48 should also get "their" property and homes back. And what % of the refuges had been told to leave by their own leaders who had started the war.

First of all, us Palestinians had nothing to do with that. Even if it were 100% true, how is it our fault if Iraq or Yemen or whoever decided to expel the Jews in their country? Why should we pay for it?

Second of all, the Palestinians were expelled before the Jews were, so it is entirely irrelevant in the context of the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

Thirdly, lets assume for a moment that what you are saying is true - that they were asked to leave. Why didn't Israel allow them to come back to their homes afterwards, if it had nothing to do with them being expelled?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 34): All Palestinian refugees in Jordan carry temporary citizenships, the only difference between the temporary and full citizenship being that those carrying temporary citizenships have to renew their passports every 2 years. More than 50% of Jordan is originally Palestinian.

Sounds like Palestinians are treated like second class citizens by Jordan. Sounds like racism to me. How do you enjoy living in Qatar? I guess you know Qatar will never allow you to have Qatari citizenship.....more racism by Arabs against Palestinians.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 34): But, none of these countries can economically handle millions of refugees becoming normal citizens -

Sure they can. Humanitarianism comes first.....sounds more to me like these Arab countries just don't want any Palestinians. More racism by Arabs again Palestinians,

Quoting QR332 (Reply 34): Egypt is already insanely overpopulated and quite poor,

Japan i& Holland are more densely populated than Egypt. And yet are prosperous. Holland continues to accept immigration....therefore, Egypt can also if it is truly concerned about Palestinians, Sounds like perhaps it's not concerned about Palestinians. Why is Egypt so poor anyway......they've have 5000 years to get their act together....

Quoting QR332 (Reply 34): Lebanon is still politically very unstable and economically in a bad state

Self-inflicted. No sympathy.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 34): Palestinian refugees in the Gulf regularly get help from the governments, and are taken care of for the most part.

Yet none are allowed to take out citizenship in those countries. More racism against Palestinians....and yet, all you do is bark again Israel.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 34): So, again, don't run your mouth about something you know nothing about, especially when you are talking to a Palestinian who himself carries the citizenship of another Arab country.

It's becoming clear to me that I probably know more about Palestine than you. Canada is a free society with a free press. I see both sides of the argument (Isreali and Palestinian) and call it as I see it. I also have no emotional ties to the region so I can view Palestinians aggressions & failures in the proper perspective.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 36): Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 33): Again, there is no reason why Gaza cannot also be prosperous. Sure there is . . . . too busy trying to bomb the crap out of their neighbors and crying the woe is me song to the world . . . rather than picking themselves up by their bootstraps.

Haha, very true ANCFlyer!

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 36): The best option, once again, is to sit down at the negotiation table and knock off this tit for tat destruction of each other. That is the best option . . .

Oh they tried that ANCFlyer. In 1994, they came very close to a peace agreement. Arafat walked away from major consessions by Israel. It showed that the Palestinians are not interested in peace.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 37): Never mind that half the time they don't even have running electricity or water because Israel flips the switch whenever they feel like it?

Why can't Gaza generate its own power, as do most countries? Or import it from Egypt? If they have money for missiles.....then they have money for power generation.....

Quoting Joni (Reply 40): Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 33): Gee whiz....sounds just like Japan, or Hong Kong, or Singapore, or Bermuda....the list goes on. All of which are prosperous. Again, there is no reason why Gaza cannot also be prosperous. Those territories aren't under foreign occupation. Even though Israel has "withdrawn" from Gaza they still control all the borders and frequently raid the area.

No. Gaza has a coastline and a long border with Egypt. It is Egypt that regularly shuts its border with Gaza....sounds like more racism by an Arab government against Palestinians to me.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 48): Egypt has a huge problem with overpopulation, Jordan has very limited resources, especially when it comes to water, Lebanon is a small country with a weak economy, and Syria also has a weak economy.

Japan & Holland (like Egypt) are overpopulated, but are prosperous. Japan also has limited resources (just like Jordan) but is prosperous. Why do Lebanon & Syria have weak economies by the way?......it's all self -inflicted.