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searpqx
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:43 pm



Quoting QR332 (Reply 10):
First of all, let me start by saying that I do agree that we have a huge problem - I am not denying this in any way. What I am disagreeing with here is two things - what people see as the cause of the problem and the solutions people seem to think will work.

QR, this is your standard response. I actually agree with many of your points and the feel the West has yet to completely face up to its role in helping create much of today's problems. But beyond blaming the West for the creation of today's version of radical Islam, what do you propose to counter it? How do you get the vast majority of Muslims, who we repeatedly hear are peace loving and oppose the likes of Bin Laden, to stand up to those that would pervert their faith? The US and its allies can do many things differently, and I think we're beginning to see the start of that, but until Islam itself fights back against these people that kill in its name, history has shown their is little an outside force can do. So how does it happen?
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:43 pm

Quoting ZTagged (Reply 49):

No I don't think so , as said the best way to put them under Pressure is to show them that we can do it also without their oil, that will drop the Oil Price , resulting in less money for Al Qaida .

And the only way to do that ,without loosing our wealth, is by investing in other Energy forms, renewable or not (Nuclear, Solar , Termic , eolic etc)


Constantin

[Edited 2007-12-29 15:50:04]
Boycott The Olympic Games In Beijing !
 
Jalto27R
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:48 pm



Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 3):

That didn't work for Communism, and it won't work for radical Islamics. The challenge at hand is to always keep in mind that it is the few and far between that think like this. Isolating the threat is the best way to eliminate it. It may be a long and painful road, but it is the most humanitarian and effective way to deal with it.

Mike
 
wingnut767
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:53 pm



Quoting N74JW (Reply 1):
No, not in my opinion. Every religious group has it's radical sects. It is the way it is...

To compare

Quoting Windshear (Reply 19):
Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 7):
We usually don't have the same opinions but I agree with you on this point completely , the main Problem is we are dependent of that Oil !



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 7):
We have to invest in renewable energy , a disentanglement of the dependence would be the end for the Radical Islam .


I think the above is one of the sneakiest left-wing agenda moves I have seen, this week!
Well done my man

 checkmark 

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 44):
Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 42):
This shows how Paradox the American Society is ...

On the other side the Government could sink the Taxes for the Gas and then make it obligatory to invest the rest of Money into renewable energy , also a control of the Gas Prices is important .

And your posts have been deviating from the original idea of the thread.

 checkmark 

Turning it ever so slowly into a Euro Green Party, anti big oil/capitalism thread.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 10):
Lets look at some of the facts:
-Prior to the last couple of decades, Hamas was insignificant, and the Palestinian resistance movement was purely secular. In fact, many Palestinian freedom fighters in the 1960s were aethiest; Hamas was funded in the 1970s by Israel in order to counter the threat of the PLO. This is well documented, and sources confirming this can be found by running a simple google search.
-Hezbollah only arose in order to counter the Israeli occupation of Lebanon; another group created by the West.
-Al Qaeda and their likes were also funded and brought to power by the West; the US funded them as part of their very short sighted cold war policy.

So, the 3 main Islamic terrorist organizations that most Westerners hear about were all indirectly created by the West. To get supporters, they need to have causes. The West has also conveniently provided these:
-In Saudi Arabia, the extremely corrupt ruling regime has been supported by the US since it first came into power. Wahabism, the basis of today's extremist Islamism, was created and spread in/by Saudi Arabia. So basically the US supported the most extreme country in the Middle East and allowed it to export its extreme Islamism. Mind you, Islam was only spread by the Al Sauds to gather support; they themselves have always been famous for their lack of morals, and as a result many ordinary Saudis hate them. Combine this with the various wars supported by the West in the region and you have the perfect recipe for disaster.
-In Iraq, the US invaded for no good reason, and for years had sanctions in place that killed many Iraqis. In Palestine, the US supports Israel blindly. In Iran, the US has supported brutal regimes and killed the only chance the country had at proper democracy.
-Egypt is another example of a corrupt leadership being supported by the US. How do you think this makes the Egyptian people feel?

Do all these things mean nothing? Do you not thing that after all of the different things done by the West in the Middle East, someone was bound to get pissed off?

Another blame America, the west and Israel thread. Oh yeah and the crusades where an unprovoked attack on peaceful nomadic tribes just trying to practice their religion also. And then there is the "we do not understand them". Do they try to understand us? I am sure is what caused them to hate us. Maybe a little self reflection and a look at the core beliefs of the religion might help a little instead of pointing the finger at everyone else.

And maybe the so called moderates might one day stand up and say enough and destroy the radicals themselves.
Yakum purkan min shmaya
 
Alias1024
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:04 am



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 36):
No it isn't. There is freedom of speech, yet you can't yell FIRE in a theatre. I am not sacrificing anything. People that preach hate have no business in this country. Why is it that HATE crimes get such billing these days. Hate is not tolerated.

So why is the KKK allowed to parade through the streets, with uniformed police officers protecting them while they try to spread hate?
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
miamiair
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:07 am



Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 54):
So why is the KKK allowed to parade through the streets, with uniformed police officers protecting them while they try to spread hate?

Are they perpetrating a crime when they are assembled? Didn't think so.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:08 am

I mentioned the following points in another thread a couple of days ago, but I think It is very strange that we continue to judge Islamic countries in terms of a Western-style participatory democracy. Most Islamic nations consists of two elements - one element that will always be enemies of the West and another element that will more or less play ball with Western democracies - unless their political influence and economic power is in danger.

True democracy in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan would almost certainly bring the enemies of democracy (radical fundamentalists along the lines of the Afghan Taliban) into political power in my opinion. It would likely led to the mass deaths or deportations of the middle and upper classes and any political opponents to the fundamentalist regime. The regime's politicians will continue to hand out political favors and patronage jobs to their own supporters to cement their loyalty - just like western leaders do in western democracy.

If this situation sounds rather like medieval form of governance, that is because it is.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
N74JW
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:30 am



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 31):
Well your President is being very unproductive on this topic , whole America should go the same way California is going .

Our President unfortunately has a case of senioritus. The wellfare of the American people are not fore-front on his mind.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 54):
So why is the KKK allowed to parade through the streets, with uniformed police officers protecting them while they try to spread hate?

They have a right to peaceful assembly under the Constitution/Bill of Rights (Amendment 1). I do not condone what they represent, but their right to do so under the law.
rm -r *
 
Alessandro
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:45 am



Quoting QR332 (Reply 10):
MO the single largest base of extremism lies in Pakistan - a country with no oil whatsoever, and one that is not even Arab.

Wrong but their production don´t cover their domestic needs.
As for extremists, too much money from natural resources in the area where does extremists origin from, when they have to work to survive then their extreme ideas will become less valid.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:24 am



Quoting QR332 (Reply 10):
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):
So to answer the question - we need to isolate them. Stop buying their oil. Stop supporting their murderous regimes. Stop catering to a religion that claims to be one of peace... but actively supports a global war.

This thinking is extremely dangerous. All of the oil-producing Middle Eastern countries, with the exception of Saudi Arabia and Iraq, are very stable countries. Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, the UAE, and Oman are all developing at insane rates, with extremism being a very small issue in all of the said countries. Not buying oil from the Middle East as a whole would just destroy the economies of the said countries and create even larger problems for the West. Furthermore, IMO the single largest base of extremism lies in Pakistan - a country with no oil whatsoever, and one that is not even Arab.

Isolating over 1,000,000,000 people is just not possible, and is a very dangerous way of thinking, especially when a large portion of today's Islamic extremism came as a direct result of the West; if you cannot appreciate where the problem came from, you cannot solve it.

I respectfully disagree purely on the basis of realpolitik. Cut off the money and watch leaders throughout the region summon everything they can behind stamping the radicals out. When it comes down to it, those who have power and money will do anything to retain their position. It's not about isolating people per se, it's more about isolating extremist ideology and goals and cutting off the money will illustrate to most that their claims and perversions of fact have nothing to stand on, in addition to being to blame for sudden economic depressions across borders. Further, it will illustrate to those who have everything to lose that without taking serious and damning action, they will be left standing alone without the friends and the institutions that keep their populations placated.

If anything isn't going away in the ME, it's systemic corruption and hunger for power, and not using that as the primary weapon and tool of manipulation against extremism is the center of what's wrong with our current so-called "war" on terror.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
baroque
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:06 am



Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 3):
It sure is. You need the following.

I sort of hoped you were joking, but clearly you were not. Six years of trying that and you really think more is a solution to the increased problems.

Killing militants is simply not the answer, especially if your methods of killing them result in the average killing knocking off a multiple of innocents, who by that very act become radicalised. It does not take much to work out that if you use those tactics each killing multiplies not solves the problem.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 10):
Isolating over 1,000,000,000 people is just not possible, and is a very dangerous way of thinking, especially when a large portion of today's Islamic extremism came as a direct result of the West; if you cannot appreciate where the problem came from, you cannot solve it.

Combating militant Islam should have lethal force as the last not the first option. Then again, some seem to think killing a billion folk is an option. If it does become an option, be assured the billion will not be all Muslims.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 11):
Firepower won't work...really. How can we kill each and every one of the scum causing the problem? We can't..no matter what we use.

 checkmark  It is indeed about time to bring in brain power and stop using firepower.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 15):
So lets say you kill a thousand terrorists. Do you really not think that there aren't people out there who will replace them in an instant? The War on Terror has been ongoing for 6 years now... do you honestly think that the capabilities or the numbers of the terrorists are any less than before? If anything, they are stronger as a result of the war on Iraq. Destroying a nation's capability to make war is much easier than destroying the capability of an enemy who lives as part of society like you and me.

That build on the kill one and breed three theme earlier. It is bleeding obvious that this is what has been happening. At least Petraeus seems to realise it even if I am not sure his solution is optimal.

Quoting N74JW (Reply 16):
Quoting QR332 (Reply 15):
the extremists seem to think that if they bomb and terrorize the West, the West will leave the Arab/Muslim world alone.

That ideology has not worked out too well for them. Al Qaeda is casting their own kind a very negative light to millions of ignorant Americans who allegedly control things over there.... and whom are armed to the teeth.

Indeed a two edged sword, but so far EACH side seems to be convinced it is on a winner, when logic should tell both sides they are NOT.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 21):
Maybe CIA should sponsor womens' right organisations in the Muslim counties rather than sending weapons to dictators...

Well apart from suggesting the CIA, it was a good idea. Then again, just because the CIA stuffs us some things, it actually does the none stupid stuff quite well at times.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 32):
Read my blog, I've got an article by Dr. David Fine on the December 22 date. There are 1.4 trillion (with a T) recoverable barrels of oil in oil shale in Colorado, Utah and Wyoming. That's four times Saudi's reserves. Recoverable, and 75 per cent of it is under BLM land.

I have read it. Sorry to say, those are not recoverable numbers. If they are he does not give any indication of the factors used. The overall "reserves" appear to be the old one from pyrolysis assay, which is a bit of a laugh as he is on about in situ recovery. There are two factors he does not give, for each tonne of oil shale heated in situ only a proportion X of the theoretical recoverable reserve will actually be recovered, my guess is that X will be about 20 to 30% at most. Then the proportion of the total volume that can be treated, another factor, Y. If you look at the spatial problems involved in 3D, Y could be below 10%. Which may mean that of the 1.4 T barrels, about 2 to 3% is the recoverable figure, still about 20 to 30 billion barrels, or about 2x Prudhoe Bay-ish in size.
You would need to prove how the numbers are arrived at.

Also, it should be noted that while the recent Shell work seems promising, this has been going on for nearly 30 years and in the early days, the results were anything but promising. The Green River Formation (GRF) is a complex assemblage, the alginite probably leaves little residual carbon, however bitumens are in almost equal abundance and we found (Chemical Geology, 1983) that the bitumens break down first and that some of the breakdown products block the fracture systems. I see no detailed account (well no account at all actually) of how these problems are addressed.

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 56):
True democracy in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan would almost certainly bring the enemies of democracy (radical fundamentalists along the lines of the Afghan Taliban) into political power in my opinion. It would likely led to the mass deaths or deportations of the middle and upper classes and any political opponents to the fundamentalist regime. The regime's politicians will continue to hand out political favors and patronage jobs to their own supporters to cement their loyalty - just like western leaders do in western democracy.

It does seem to be a case of being careful what you wish for. One matter not considered are the (to the west) unusual dynamics within the Islamic religion. There is no formal organization, no way of addressing a Pope to get matters fixed. It is as diverse as its Imams. And the west has been fast asleep at the wheel while Wahabbi Sunni Islam has pushed its extremist views out to what become client states, including Pakistan, Bangladesh and Indonesia.

As someone remarked, when the US asked for volunteers to fight the Russians, the Egyptians and Saudis were only too please to "volunteer" some of their less welcome citizens in the hope that they would be rid of them. No doubt at the time, the US was happy to get these fervent radicals. Oh dear oh dearie me!!
 
windshear
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:00 am



Quoting QR332 (Reply 10):
Isolating over 1,000,000,000 people is just not possible, and is a very dangerous way of thinking, especially when a large portion of today's Islamic extremism came as a direct result of the West; if you cannot appreciate where the problem came from, you cannot solve it.

The west created Islamic Extremism?  rotfl   rotfl 
What a joke, there are so many things wrong with what is quoted above, it is almost impossible to cook up a decent reply for what you have written.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
flynavy
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:10 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):

I'm all about letting them all slaughter each other en masse.

But keep my country out of it.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
qr332
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:12 pm



Quoting N74JW (Reply 16):
No, not in the slightest. Terrorists are like drug dealers in that regard. If one falls, there are a dozen more ready to take the place. Attrition in that manner does send a message, even to those who are not afraid to die and to those who look forward to martyrdom. Trust me, deep down everyone everyone gets afraid once they realize the next moment could be their last.

The whole point is that these people don't care if the next moment is their last. They are so brainwashed that they believe no matter what will happen, they will end up in heaven.

Quoting N74JW (Reply 16):
Is it? Where does a normal military base come from? Society,,,

Of course it does, but soldiers are different to civilians, with different rules governing them. Terrorists hide among us; armies cannot function in this way.

Quoting N74JW (Reply 16):
I would say oil and money is the game in th M.E. The U.S. and the Saudis are the key brokers. Both parties follow the money.

I was referring more to the US's influence towards the Middle East. The UK, France, etc are not big players in the region anymore, while the US is the biggest player today.

Quoting N74JW (Reply 16):
Have you met every American? Blanket statements like that do not help your argument. You are right regarding the CIA's debacle in Iran. Even then, do you think the average American and the judicial part of the U.S. govt were aware of the facts at that time? I read 'A Legacy of Ashes' a couple of months ago, and was astounded at the cavalcade of CIA screw-ups committed around the world since it's inception. The CIA's effort to thwart Communism cost the U.S. a great deal, whilst not really fighting Communism at all. Those hostages taken in 1979 had nothing to do with what happened in 1953. How just was that?

No, I have not, but the amount of support a war based on lies got even after the lies were exposed isn't exactly encouraging.

As for the hostage crisis, it wasn't very just, but the crisis affected a small number of Americans as opposed to an entire nation. The US's actions cost the Iranians their only shot at democracy and allowed a tyrant to remain in power. There was a lot of anger among Iranians, and that was how they took it out. I am not saying it was right, but to every action there is a reaction. Even today, Iran's hatred for the US has its roots in the 1953 coup.

Quoting N74JW (Reply 16):
That ideology has not worked out too well for them. Al Qaeda is casting their own kind a very negative light to millions of ignorant Americans who allegedly control things over there.... and whom are armed to the teeth.

I never claimed it did. I am simply stating the irony that AirTran737 thinks in the same way they do.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 25):
If the Saudi government knew about what the terrorist was doing and did nothing to stop him/her then yes, you have to punish all who are involved, and all who sanction terrorism.

The Saudi government would not do that to the US; they have way too much at stake. Without the US the Al Sauds would lose their source of funding, and would find it very difficult to remain in power. The vast majority of Arab governments are opposed to terrorism and combat it as well; this is something that Americans forget.

We suffer from these people as well. Just look at the recent bombings in Algeria. I remember in November 2005 when several bombs were detonated in Amman, Jordan - a city I consider my second home. One was detonated at a Palestinian-Jordanian wedding, killing dozens of hard working middle class Palestinian and Jordanian Muslims in a city that has not witnessed any violence in decades.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 27):
Your plaintive and repetitive cries that radical Islam was created by the west is a fallacy.
There were radical Islamic groups, even whole nations long before "the West" was in a position of influence. Perhaps more than a millenium before the great Satan, the United States of America.

Don't patronize me, I am not Ahmedinijad here - I never claimed the US was the "great satan". Radical Islam has always existed, but it was never as big a problem as it is today. Radical Islam, in its modern form, only started early this century with the rise of Wahabism, which was invented in Saudi Arabia.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 27):
I concede the various Crusades were carried out with vigour and whilst the atrocities and cruelty carried out by those European armies can hardly be denied, their opponents were not the gentle scholars that revisionist historians would like us to believe.

What the hell do the crusades have to do with anything? You aren't seriously going back all the way to the Middle Ages to bring an example of radical Islam? Especially when it was absolutely nothing compared to radical Christianity, which resulted in the streets of Jerusalem being soaked in the blood of Jews and Muslims.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 27):
If radical Islam makes up such a tiny percentage of the Muslim world, and the victims are mainly Muslim, why do the 95 % of "peaceful" Muslims not stand up and say this behaviour is not acceptable?
Is it because they don't care?
Is it because, despite their claim to being peaceloving, they tacitly approve?

How do Muslims not stand up to this behavior? The Jordanian intelligence service has uncovered several terrorist plots in the US in the past, Arab governments across the region are constantly battling terrorism and working with the US to solve the problem. As for the people, they mostly see no need to defend America while it continues to wage wars across the region, support Israel, and support brutal regimes. That is the whole point; in order to win the war on terror, the US needs to show these people that they are trying to help rather than further hurt the region. Unfortunately, the US has not gone about this very well and has destroyed its chances of winning over people through its actions in Iraq, Palestine, and throughout the region.

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 53):
Another blame America, the west and Israel thread. Oh yeah and the crusades where an unprovoked attack on peaceful nomadic tribes just trying to practice their religion also. And then there is the "we do not understand them". Do they try to understand us? I am sure is what caused them to hate us. Maybe a little self reflection and a look at the core beliefs of the religion might help a little instead of pointing the finger at everyone else.

And maybe the so called moderates might one day stand up and say enough and destroy the radicals themselves.

Are you honestly trying to justify the crusades, which occurred 1000 years ago? Especially since it was a classic example of Christian extremism and brutality?

And yes, I am blaming America and the West for a big part of the problem. I am not saying they are solely responsible, but nobody is willing to accept the blame, which just goes to show how many hypocrites there are out there willing to point the finger at Muslims for every little thing, but who are not willing to accept their own countries' roles in the damage done.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 58):
Wrong but their production don´t cover their domestic needs.
As for extremists, too much money from natural resources in the area where does extremists origin from, when they have to work to survive then their extreme ideas will become less valid.

Many of the extremists out there are uneducated and poor - not all Arabs use $100 bills in the place of toilet paper.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 59):
I respectfully disagree purely on the basis of realpolitik. Cut off the money and watch leaders throughout the region summon everything they can behind stamping the radicals out. When it comes down to it, those who have power and money will do anything to retain their position. It's not about isolating people per se, it's more about isolating extremist ideology and goals and cutting off the money will illustrate to most that their claims and perversions of fact have nothing to stand on, in addition to being to blame for sudden economic depressions across borders. Further, it will illustrate to those who have everything to lose that without taking serious and damning action, they will be left standing alone without the friends and the institutions that keep their populations placated.

If anything isn't going away in the ME, it's systemic corruption and hunger for power, and not using that as the primary weapon and tool of manipulation against extremism is the center of what's wrong with our current so-called "war" on terror.

Systematic corruption and hunger for power... where exactly? Again, it is mostly isolated to the US's closest allies in the region; Egypt and Saudi. What about the dozens of other Arab countries that do not have these problems?

Again, boycotting Middle Eastern oil will hurt the region as a whole, not just the Saudis or whoever. The rich in other countries will scramble for a solution, but the moderate middle classes in countries such as Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, the UAE, etc will be completely alienated.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 61):
The west created Islamic Extremism? rotfl rotfl
What a joke, there are so many things wrong with what is quoted above, it is almost impossible to cook up a decent reply for what you have written.

Instead of sitting there mocking my post, why don't you provide evidence proving its wrong? I've backed up all my claims, time for you to do the same...
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
flynavy
Posts: 2179
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:17 pm

Their called Islamic Fundamentalists for a reason.

There's something fundamentally WRONG with Islam.

...at least, their interpretation of it.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
hkg82
Posts: 1333
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 4:24 pm

RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:02 pm

It is unbelievable how many people here point the blame on Islam itself AND not on the rulers and so called 'religious' leaders of these Middle Eastern countries who only care about greed and power consolidation.

ALL religions have their groups that deviate from the straight path towards extremism, violence and terrorism, and dedicate their acts to that particular religion, and ALL cases of this are in the minority. Again, how can something be fundamentally wrong with Islam when the vast majority of followers are not extremist fundamentalists?! Can you people not understand that?

To generalise the more than 1 billion people who practice Islam in that manner is completely uncalled for and displays an extreme level of delusion and paranoia.

With that said Islamic terrorism IS one of the biggest threats to world peace today but to approach the issue with the kind of mindset displayed here is wrong.

Now watch me get labeled a terrorist hugger by the usual war-mongering clueless bunch that populate these boards.

[Edited 2007-12-30 05:12:50]
 
flynavy
Posts: 2179
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:09 pm



Quoting Hkg82 (Reply 65):
Again, how can something be fundamentally wrong with Islam when the vast majority of followers are not extremist fundamentalists?! Can you people not understand that?

 redflag  WHERE is the public outcry AGAINST the fundamentalists then?!
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
flynavy
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:11 pm

Further, why is Al Jazeera always the FIRST station to air Bin Laden propaganda tapes? WHY don't they simply NOT air them?

I think we all know the reason why.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
flynavy
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Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:12 pm



Quoting Hkg82 (Reply 65):
Now watch me get labeled a terrorist hugger by the usual clueless bunch that populate these boards.

Duly noted.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
Arniepie
Posts: 1454
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:00 pm

All these problems with radicalisation within Islam can be solved within Islam itself, it only takes some courage to perform a true Ijtihaad (enlightenment/self reflection).
It is rather ironic that the things that made the western world (in the beginning Europe) so successful namely the Renaissance, a new way of thinking whereby basically every believe or predisposition can be put to the test and be valued on its effects/results is actually directly coming from one of the basic principals of Islam namely the use of Ijtihaad which was one of the fundaments of Islam.

Ever since the 11th century Islam has been unable to reinvent and adjust its laws to more modern times just because one ,now long death, ruler decided that true enlightenment was no longer necessary and everything should be as it was from then on.

By giving up this ability to modernise the Islam has slowly but steadily lost influence on those fields it used to master as nobody else namely, sciences, mathematics, literature, the law, and most importantly human and personal rights.

Things like the position of the women in the Islam world , the Shari'a law, the attitude of Muslim against the Kuffaar (all non Muslims) and many other things or a direct reflection of life 1000yrs ago.
The Profhet biggest achievement was undoubtedly the realisation that laws and customs are not supposed to be rigid but always adjustable within the timeframe they are used in.
Ever since Islam has given up on this basic value it has lost its momentum and gradually lost its leading role in the world.

[Edited 2007-12-30 06:03:31]
[edit post]
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:13 pm



Quoting QR332 (Reply 63):
We suffer from these people as well. Just look at the recent bombings in Algeria. I remember in November 2005 when several bombs were detonated in Amman, Jordan - a city I consider my second home. One was detonated at a Palestinian-Jordanian wedding, killing dozens of hard working middle class Palestinian and Jordanian Muslims in a city that has not witnessed any violence in decades.

Excellent post QR322, but I would slightly correct this part. It is not that Islamic nations suffer AS WELL, it is that by far the highest casualties are from the local populations. Whichever country you choose, from Iraq, to Afghanistan, to Algeria, to Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Indonesia, pretty much every terrorist attack, even those aimed at western targets kills more locals than westerners.

That is why even Al Q told the Iraqi franchise to back off a bit and why it appears that JI in Indonesia has split with the less radical and larger part of the split has decided to abandon violent methods.

As QR lists, there are many examples of police forces in Muslim dominated states following quite effective policies. Mostly these have been non military solutions, and that may be one reason why they have sometimes been discounted in the west. While none has been 100% successful as yet, you would have to score most of them pretty highly compared with the military efforts in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

Quoting Hkg82 (Reply 65):
Now watch me get labeled a terrorist hugger by the usual war-mongering clueless bunch that populate these boards

Sorry, Hkg82, would like to oblige, but I am only used to (watching) Brett Lee and the speed of the labelling is far faster than anything Lee can manage.  Wow!

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 66):
Quoting Hkg82 (Reply 65):
Again, how can something be fundamentally wrong with Islam when the vast majority of followers are not extremist fundamentalists?! Can you people not understand that?

redflag WHERE is the public outcry AGAINST the fundamentalists then?!

I am not sure what effect a public outcry would have but many of the countries at which you rail are indeed busy as a bunch of Beirut bricklayers trying to sort out extremists. In a random real time try to find out some relevant news, I went to the Jakarta Post. In the middle of severe floods, yet another Aceh earthquake and landslides, the Jakarta Post finds space for this.
http://www.thejakartapost.com/detail...l.asp?fileid=20071229123312&irec=8
You need to read carefully to find the significance. It appears that those released have been turned. It may be the case or not but to suggest that the relevant countries are not trying just shows your blinkers off to great effect.

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 67):
Further, why is Al Jazeera always the FIRST station to air Bin Laden propaganda tapes? WHY don't they simply NOT air them?

I think we all know the reason why.

Yes we do, don't we kiddies? It is because CNN and Fox are stampeding down the paddock in their anxiety to get the tape. I don't think that green colour suits them at all, especially not in winter.  Wow!
 
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:18 pm



Quoting QR332 (Reply 63):
Are you honestly trying to justify the crusades, which occurred 1000 years ago? Especially since it was a classic example of Christian extremism and brutality?

 redflag 

No, the arab muslim conquest of Jerusalem in 638 AD had nothing to do with the crusades, which started in 1095 AD, when muslims kept on conquering lands especially in Anatolia. The crusades were just started for no reason, because the other side just wanted to crusade, unlike islam which never conquered any lands that were not islamic before. Janissaries never existed either, islam would not do that to christians, force them to convert to isalm or die, and then fight many times against fellow christians. Such rose colored glasses some wear. So many classic examples of islamic extremism and brutality. Look at Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s, such brutality among fellow muslims, makes the Gulf War and Iraq War look like mere skirmishes.

Great revisionist lesson. This is why radical islam won't be stopped, it has always been there, sometimes a minority view, sometimes a majority view, probably a secret majority view amongst many muslims today, it would be human nature, along with a view for blaming others for their troubles.
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qr332
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:22 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 66):
WHERE is the public outcry AGAINST the fundamentalists then?!

Where are the public outcries against stopping support for Israel? About stopping support for extremist regimes? Where is the public outcry for actually stopping war in the region rather than starting new ones?

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 69):
Ever since the 11th century Islam has been unable to reinvent and adjust its laws to more modern times just because one ,now long death, ruler decided that true enlightenment was no longer necessary and everything should be as it was from then on.

Ever since the 11th century Islam has been unable to reinvent and adjust its laws to more modern times just because one ,now long death, ruler decided that true enlightenment was no longer necessary and everything should be as it was from then on.

By giving up this ability to modernise the Islam has slowly but steadily lost influence on those fields it used to master as nobody else namely, sciences, mathematics, literature, the law, and most importantly human and personal rights.

Things like the position of the women in the Islam world , the Shari'a law, the attitude of Muslim against the Kuffaar (all non Muslims) and many other things or a direct reflection of life 1000yrs ago.
The Profit biggest achievement was undoubtedly the realisation that laws and customs are not supposed to be rigid but always adjustable within the timeframe they are used in.
Ever since Islam has given up on this basic value it has lost its momentum and gradually lost its leading pole in the world.

With all due respect, this is wrong. Evidence for this is that Wahabism was invented because the Wahabis thought Islam had "strayed too much" in the late 18th century - it did not gather large amounts of support until the establishment of the KSA in the 20th century, and its adoption as the primary form of Islam practiced in the country.

Furthermore, you only need to look at the differences between the different Muslim countries to be able to tell that this statement is not true. Palestinians, Jordanians, Lebanese and Syrians, for example, have traditionally been quite liberal and secular; I mentioned above that in the 1960s, much of the Palestinian liberation movement was secular and aethiest. Militant Islam only grew recently, and was never as big of an issue in the past as it is today. Society in Greater Syria is completely different to that of the Gulf, even though they are all majority Muslim countries - it is because of the culture. The Gulf has always been very conservative, as opposed to the more diverse Greater Syria.

What you said above about Islam today being a reflection of it 1,000 years ago is true - Islam has changed very little, and this is not a bad thing, because Islam, unlike popular belief, is very compatible with the modern world. Just look at Qatar, for example - there are several female ministers in power, and the Emir's wife is an extremely high profile figure that has had huge influnece over the country. In Jordan, Queen Rania is also very influential, and has never been veiled, yet nobody cares.

You also mention that attitudes towards "kuffar" haven't changed - that is also false. Greater Syria has always had a very diverse population in terms of religion, and even today there are many Christians who Muslims treat just as they would treat other Muslims. In the Gulf, there are huge Hindu, Christian, Buddhist, etc communities; two churches are currently being constructed in Qatar, a country that up until recently was over 90% Muslim. Shimon Peres was in the country this year, and there are exchange programs being opened up between Israel and Qatar. This in a country that only 12 years ago did not allow Qatari women to drive. Today, they can vote, work wherever they want, drive, run for office, and have many freedoms.

The problem comes from countries such as Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia, which have very conservative cultures that are unwilling to change. That is where traditionally the biggest abuses in human rights are found, especially when it comes to women.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:35 pm



Quoting ArniePie (Reply 69):
All these problems with radicalisation within Islam can be solved within Islam itself, it only takes some courage to perform a true Ijtihaad (enlightenment/self reflection).
It is rather ironic that the things that made the western world (in the beginning Europe) so successful namely the Renaissance, a new way of thinking whereby basically every believe or predisposition can be put to the test and be valued on its effects/results is actually directly coming from one of the basic principals of Islam namely the use of Ijtihaad which was one of the fundaments of Islam.

Ever since the 11th century Islam has been unable to reinvent and adjust its laws to more modern times just because one ,now long death, ruler decided that true enlightenment was no longer necessary and everything should be as it was from then on.

By giving up this ability to modernise the Islam has slowly but steadily lost influence on those fields it used to master as nobody else namely, sciences, mathematics, literature, the law, and most importantly human and personal rights.

Things like the position of the women in the Islam world , the Shari'a law, the attitude of Muslim against the Kuffaar (all non Muslims) and many other things or a direct reflection of life 1000yrs ago.
The Profhet biggest achievement was undoubtedly the realisation that laws and customs are not supposed to be rigid but always adjustable within the timeframe they are used in.
Ever since Islam has given up on this basic value it has lost its momentum and gradually lost its leading role in the world.

I tend to agree with your post - but have to come back to one of my earlier posts in which I deplore the suppression of the "female" factor in religion (Islam ,Catholicism,buddism etc..)
All this discussion -even here on a.net - is a male chauvinist exercise with most likely no female intervention.
I persist that world politics are a men's affair and that's why it turns sour .We -male ,machos,"superior" hard thinkers and "doers" - are far from getting to the core of many problems-including obviously Islamic radicalization.Since we argue on a power basis rather than a emotional-human basis.Religion is all about power and dominance -nothing else!
As long as we stick to the traditional visions perpetrated by current politicians and "religious "leaders,nothing will ever change.Militant Islamists use Islam as a lame duck excuse for power purposes-they have in most cases no clue about spirituality,visions or philosophy -all elements that used to be a turf for the "old Islamic" scientists and philosophers -used even today in a very perverted way by the very same that blow up children,women and innocent compatriots.
One should impose the election of 50% female politicians in islamic countries to diminish the negative male influence ...
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N74JW
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:38 pm



Quoting QR332 (Reply 63):
The whole point is that these people don't care if the next moment is their last. They are so brainwashed that they believe no matter what will happen, they will end up in heaven.

That is the party line, and what they would like you to believe. Brainwashed, yes, that part is tragic.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 63):
I was referring more to the US's influence towards the Middle East. The UK, France, etc are not big players in the region anymore, while the US is the biggest player today.

It would be nice if certain European nations would stop selling nuclear technology to certain Middle Eastern nations...

Quoting QR332 (Reply 63):
As for the hostage crisis, it wasn't very just, but the crisis affected a small number of Americans as opposed to an entire nation. The US's actions cost the Iranians their only shot at democracy and allowed a tyrant to remain in power. There was a lot of anger among Iranians, and that was how they took it out. I am not saying it was right, but to every action there is a reaction. Even today, Iran's hatred for the US has its roots in the 1953 coup.

This one is getting anorexic. Iran's hatred for the U.S. is unfounded today. Funny, that the Iranians hate us, but they come here to study. They come to the 'Great Satan' to better their lives...

Quoting QR332 (Reply 63):
I am not saying it was right, but to every action there is a reaction.

Doesn't sound like you are far behind...
rm -r *
 
qr332
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:59 pm



Quoting CALTECH (Reply 71):
No, the arab muslim conquest of Jerusalem in 638 AD had nothing to do with the crusades, which started in 1095 AD, when muslims kept on conquering lands especially in Anatolia. The crusades were just started for no reason, because the other side just wanted to crusade, unlike islam which never conquered any lands that were not islamic before. Janissaries never existed either, islam would not do that to christians, force them to convert to isalm or die, and then fight many times against fellow christians. Such rose colored glasses some wear. So many classic examples of islamic extremism and brutality. Look at Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s, such brutality among fellow muslims, makes the Gulf War and Iraq War look like mere skirmishes.

Your not seriously getting into this discussion? I'm not going to argue medieval history with you, especially since brutality was the norm across the world at the time, but it is well established that Islamic rule during the middle ages was much more fair and just than that of the West. Yes, the Muslims did do brutal things, but it was not nearly as widespread as in the West, and brutality was the norm in those days.

As for the Iraq-Iran war, now you are just relating things that have NOTHING to do with religion to Islam. That is like me calling the Vietnam war an example of Christian brutality.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 71):
Great revisionist lesson. This is why radical islam won't be stopped, it has always been there, sometimes a minority view, sometimes a majority view, probably a secret majority view amongst many muslims today, it would be human nature, along with a view for blaming others for their troubles.

What are you going on about? If I were to go back and look at Christianity in medieval times, then Christianity would by far come out on top for being the most brutal religion to exist.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
Arniepie
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:01 pm



Quoting QR332 (Reply 72):
With all due respect, this is wrong. Evidence for this is that Wahhabi's was invented because the Wahhabi's thought Islam had "strayed too much" in the late 18th century - it did not gather large amounts of support until the establishment of the KSA in the 20th century, and its adoption as the primary form of Islam practiced in the country.



Quoting QR332 (Reply 72):
What you said above about Islam today being a reflection of it 1,000 years ago is true - Islam has changed very little, and this is not a bad thing, because Islam, unlike popular belief, is very compatible with the modern world. Just look at Qatar, for example - there are several female ministers in power, and the Emir's wife is an extremely high profile figure that has had huge influnece over the country. In Jordan, Queen Rania is also very influential, and has never been veiled, yet nobody cares.

I'm sorry but you cannot say I'm wrong and than a bit further down the line say I'm right about Islam not changing much in the past 1000 years.
The connection you made with Wahabism is certainly right but it is not me who immediately connected Islam with Wahabism per se.
Wahabism is an extreme vision of Islam which most Muslim don't support, I know this and so do most people on this board.

I do not share your views however when you say that Islam today does not need to be changed because it is is "compatible" with the modern world.
The whole Idea of Islam (in the beginning that is) was that customs and laws have to be adjusted according to the timeframe they are used in .

Your example of Syria is a very interesting example, the religious minority (Christians) where certainly tolerated better than non Christians where for a long time in Europe.
However marginalisation and severe limits have always existed for them in Syria and sometimes even worse, they are not treated the same as a normal Muslim and that is true for almost all minorities in predominately Muslim countries.
Over here however things have changed and true secularism is a fact of everyday life.
As a result many Muslims that have made the move to the west come and live in a place that gives them basically the same possibilities and rights as anybody else regardless of ideology.
[edit post]
 
miamiair
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:04 pm



Quoting QR332 (Reply 75):
Your not seriously getting into this discussion?

Good. Stop living in the past and stop playing the blame game. Fix the problem, reaching into the history books is not an option.

If these people don't give a crap about living, I say send them on their way.
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:16 pm



Quoting QR332 (Reply 75):
Your not seriously getting into this discussion? I'm not going to argue medieval history with you, especially since brutality was the norm across the world at the time, but it is well established that Islamic rule during the middle ages was much more fair and just than that of the West. Yes, the Muslims did do brutal things, but it was not nearly as widespread as in the West, and brutality was the norm in those days.

As for the Iraq-Iran war, now you are just relating things that have NOTHING to do with religion to Islam. That is like me calling the Vietnam war an example of Christian brutality.

I can't believe you are trying to be serious, this is why radical islam is alive and well at this time. Yes I know, the prophet Mohammed of islam never conquered lands, he just peacefully took over them and the people. Ottoman Muslim Turks peacefully took over Constantinople. The Balkans were peacefully entered by muslim armies. The jaundiced eye and blinders show radicalism.


Quoting QR332 (Reply 75):
What are you going on about? If I were to go back and look at Christianity in medieval times, then Christianity would by far come out on top for being the most brutal religion to exist.

Vienna invited muslim armies to come and take over the city.Someone must not have been awake during the Ottoman muslim suppression of arab muslims in history class. Here's a cliff note, very brutal and barbaric. Or the Seljuk Turks as they conquered, or all the other historical incidents. Or is it just blame the west for everything. Yes please, don't throw rocks when you live in a glass house. Many here in the west see muslim complaints of abuse and suppression by westerners quite ironic, when we see how muslims treat women in their own countries, not all countries, but many.

The Janissaries were a muslim organization for displaced and homeless christians. Yes, such a peaceful and caring religion.
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windshear
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:56 pm



Quoting QR332 (Reply 63):
Instead of sitting there mocking my post, why don't you provide evidence proving its wrong? I've backed up all my claims, time for you to do the same...

I am not mocking you, your claim simply is a joke. Now if I was to start on a trail of trying to explain ("prove you wrong" in your words) to you how I see things, and how simplistic AND defensive your assumptions are, I would really be in a world of pain.

The paradox about our ability to grasp reality, is that we all are self-referential in our attempt to decrease complexity. This means that I can only understand you by referring to my own system of understanding, thinking and feeling.

How can I then explain to you, why you are wrong in your assumptions? Even more, what is the point of asking for proof, when you've already made up your mind about who is to blame, and for what?

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:46 pm



Quoting ArniePie (Reply 76):
I'm sorry but you cannot say I'm wrong and than a bit further down the line say I'm right about Islam not changing much in the past 1000 years.
The connection you made with Wahabism is certainly right but it is not me who immediately connected Islam with Wahabism per se.
Wahabism is an extreme vision of Islam which most Muslim don't support, I know this and so do most people on this board.

When I said it hasn't changed, I didn't mean the mentality of the people, I meant the basic concepts of Islam - these have not changed in the slightest.

As for why I referred to Wahabism, Wahabisim is what you are currently seeing in action with extremists, and is entirely relevant to this discussion.

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 76):
Your example of Syria is a very interesting example, the religious minority (Christians) where certainly tolerated better than non Christians where for a long time in Europe.
However marginalisation and severe limits have always existed for them in Syria and sometimes even worse, they are not treated the same as a normal Muslim and that is true for almost all minorities in predominately Muslim countries.
Over here however things have changed and true secularism is a fact of everyday life.
As a result many Muslims that have made the move to the west come and live in a place that gives them basically the same possibilities and rights as anybody else regardless of ideology.

That is because the West didn't have to go through colonialism, which practically put development in the Arab world on hold for a few hundred years. It isn't a coincidence that most ex-colonies are still struggling to this very day.

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 77):
Good. Stop living in the past and stop playing the blame game. Fix the problem, reaching into the history books is not an option.

If these people don't give a crap about living, I say send them on their way.

I wasn't even the one who brought up the crusades, so why are you directing this at me?

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 78):
I can't believe you are trying to be serious, this is why radical islam is alive and well at this time. Yes I know, the prophet Mohammed of islam never conquered lands, he just peacefully took over them and the people. Ottoman Muslim Turks peacefully took over Constantinople. The Balkans were peacefully entered by muslim armies. The jaundiced eye and blinders show radicalism.

Ottoman Muslim Turks also took over Amman, Beirut, Damascus, Jerusalem, Mecca, and the entire Arab world. They controlled us for hundreds of years and repressed us. How does that fit into your cute little argument? The Turks hurt us much more than they ever hurt the West.

Islam is a religion. It is a set of beliefs. That means that many people, of all kinds of races and nationalities, believe the same thing. That also means that just because someone happens to be Muslim and does something, it doesn't reflect on all of Islam.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 78):
The Janissaries were a muslim organization for displaced and homeless christians. Yes, such a peaceful and caring religion.

They were an OTTOMAN, not a Muslim organization. There is a big difference.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 79):
I am not mocking you, your claim simply is a joke. Now if I was to start on a trail of trying to explain ("prove you wrong" in your words) to you how I see things, and how simplistic AND defensive your assumptions are, I would really be in a world of pain.

The paradox about our ability to grasp reality, is that we all are self-referential in our attempt to decrease complexity. This means that I can only understand you by referring to my own system of understanding, thinking and feeling.

How can I then explain to you, why you are wrong in your assumptions? Even more, what is the point of asking for proof, when you've already made up your mind about who is to blame, and for what?

Again, unlike you, at least I have backed up my claim with well-documented evidence. You, on the other hand, are doing nothing but ranting.

And please, get off the high horse. You, just like me, have also made your mind up. Every person on these forums have their minds made up. I could also claim that your own beliefs are simplistic and defensive; that does not make it true.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:53 pm



Quoting QR332 (Reply 80):
Ottoman Muslim Turks also took over Amman, Beirut, Damascus, Jerusalem, Mecca, and the entire Arab world. They controlled us for hundreds of years and repressed us. How does that fit into your cute little argument? The Turks hurt us much more than they ever hurt the West.



Quoting QR332 (Reply 80):
They were an OTTOMAN, not a Muslim organization. There is a big difference.

Wow, what exactly is the difference, seems as though someone is confused.
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lehpron
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:29 pm

Well, how do radicals come about? I think every group has people that take this too far, that think they have take matters into their own hands. You have learn this sh:t, to kill to convey messages through violence, etc. Which means it can be unlearned, unfortunately this implies a long-term solution is the only way. Since modern times is about getting results, we aren't going to stop radicals anytime soon.

I find that killing radicals only brings more recruits into the radical team, who take revenge for their fallen brethern, and we react by killing them. It's a cycle, like the Israeli-Palistine issue, quite chicken-egg. Personally I'm loosing interest in taking a side, I don't care who started it, just wondering who's willing to stop. Radicals won't stop, its against their nature to be fair.

I figure take a radical's ability to prop ideals up on a pedastal away and they won't have the same will to continue. They need to be outnumbered by enough people telling them they are wrong, particularly people they trust. Take whatever you think that means but don't act like that's what I'm saying as I'm pretty sure there are other interpretations to it.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):

Don't you mean radical-apologists, or do you really mean to say Islamic-apologist? If you don't think there's a difference, let me know so I can stop arguing.  

[Edited 2007-12-30 13:32:59]
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windshear
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:05 pm



Quoting QR332 (Reply 80):
Again, unlike you, at least I have backed up my claim with well-documented evidence

First of all I do not have to prove anything, I only wrote what I thought of your remark, no need to prove anything.

Secondly you don't prove anything in a A.net forum... I mean ever!

Thirdly where is your proof?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 80):
And please, get off the high horse. You, just like me, have also made your mind up. Every person on these forums have their minds made up. I could also claim that your own beliefs are simplistic and defensive; that does not make it true.

Yes and I could call you a banana, which of course wouldn't make it anymore true either, I mean what is the point of all of this nonsense? I am being cocky you think?

I just happened to realize just how different you and I are, your posts show your line of thinking, and honestly I cannot even begin to explain how far you and I are apart. This is simply what I have tried to explain.

If I would go ahead and argue using my sense of logic, as a mean to counter your sense of logic, it would obviously seem equally incompatible to you, as your logic is to mine... So what's the point?

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
wingnut767
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:18 am



Quoting QR332 (Reply 80):
That is because the West didn't have to go through colonialism, which practically put development in the Arab world on hold for a few hundred years. It isn't a coincidence that most ex-colonies are still struggling to this very day.

So the United States, Canada and Australia did not go through colonialism? Hell even India is pulling itself up and moving along. Stop blaming it on the Colonial factor and the west. If it was not for oil Islam would have all of the countries in the Middle East still in the Middle Ages. The west reformed itself a long time ago with our Revolutions removing the Kings and the Church from power. It is time for the Islamic people to do the same. Look in the mirror and stop pointing fingers and blame everywhere else.
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NAV20
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:36 am

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 84):
Stop blaming it on the Colonial factor and the west. If it was not for oil Islam would have all of the countries in the Middle East still in the Middle Ages. The west reformed itself a long time ago with our Revolutions removing the Kings and the Church from power.

Wingnut767, not disputing that the countries of the Middle East badly need political reform. But one has to remember that they are very new countries - until WW1 they were mostly part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire, after that they were largely turned into de facto colonies, mostly French and British ones. It is only since then that they have enjoyed any kind of true independence; and that 'independence' was immediately tempered by Israel being dumped down in the most fertile part of the region like a cuckoo in the nest.

Nor can the West claim to have perfected its systems of government either; not with the Great Depression, two world wars, and the Cold War all within living memory. The Middle East played virtually no part in those cataclysms except for having its territories fought over; and since then it has faced four wars over Israel, the US-inspired Iraq-Iran War, the invasion of Iraq, and now endless threats of the use of military force in Iran.

Two recent events stick in my mind as symptomatic of the 'climate' in the Middle East.

1. A charity I support has spent a long time assisting landmine clearance in the Western Desert (mines which were laid in millions by both sides during WW2). It recently sent me an appeal for a further donation to enable it to take part in the task of clearing the vast numbers of (US-supplied) cluster-bombs which are now littering South Lebanon.

2. A week or two ago I was chatting to two families - one Israeli and one Lebanese - who live in my close. They are both here in Australia for the same reason - their eldest kids were coming up to military age and neither of them cared to risk sacrificing them in one part or the other of the Middle East cauldron. This was at the time of the most recent 'peace initiative.' Both sets of parents (who are good friends, all of them having been born in the Middle East)were unanimous in saying that it wouldn't get anywhere because of Israeli intransigence. And that if the USA ever wanted to regain its reputation and influence in the Middle East, the essential first step would be to FORCE Israel to get more reasonable in a hurry - by threatening to 'stop the money.'

They should know, since they lived in the region until recently. The impression I got is that if anyone anywhere in the Middle East wanted to recruit 'militants' all they had to do was point to the USA's blind, 100% support of Israel, whichever atrocity the Israelis cared to commit next, and however many penniless refugees Israel cared to drive out to ruin the economies and political stability of neighbouring countries.

[Edited 2007-12-30 17:43:51]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
mandala499
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:28 am

Did someone mention Indonesia being quiet? How do we stop radical Islam? Simple... we give entertainment everyone can enjoy... and to hell with the fanatics...

Here are two... from the tacky to the nice entertainment...


And those who don't care about the whole religious issue... we got "secular entertainment"...


And for those religious but not hardline... they got entertainment too...

---

Nahh, basically we just go on with our lives, enjoy it... and respect our tradition... so the Wahhabiist have less grounds to attack and start eroding our social values...

We also strive to preserve our sense of humour... here's one taking the p1ss of one (relatively moderate but went the polygamous way) preacher...


We got our ways to stop them... it's not bombs, not bullets, not by being apologetic... we just stand our ground...
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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pwm2txlhopper
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:24 am

In all seriousness, I think we should start wrapping the bodies of the Jihad fighters we're killing in pig skins to prevent them from going to heaven with Allah. It might sound like a joke, but I'm serious! These guys look forward to and worship death, and they loathe life! They have no respect for life, and in their minds, they're giving their lives for the greater will of Allah, and leaving this Earth to go be with the seventy virgins is a welcome escape to them. They are crazy! In fact, they are so fanatical and crazy that they also believe if a Muslim body is wrapped and buried in pig skin, than this will keep the person's soul from being accepted into Heaven! Walla! So suddenly suicide attacks and becoming a "martyr" would become pointless prospects after they've seen a couple hundred of their "brother fighters" wrapped in a hog skin with a piece of bacon hanging out of their mouth! After this has been broadcast around the Muslim world on Al-Jazerra for a while they might take warning and think twice before strapping on the vest of C-4 with the rusted nails and bolts, or before rigging that dead dog's body in the road into an IED for the next convoy to encounter.

I read about a general that tried this and successfully put an end to an Islamic uprising hundreds of years ago somewhere in Malaysia or the Philippines. As primitive as it sounds, I think it just might work! Times have changed yes, but not a lot in most of the Muslim parts of the world... So we've got to think on their level, a primitive 3rd world kind of mindset... Invading armies, missiles, B-52's, and the full wrath of American military obliteration doesn't scare them enough to run them away, yet something as simple as pig skin over their corpses might well stop them dead in their tracks. Pork isn't just the other white meat, it's shear terror to the terrorist!

Oh, and we should start serving pickled pigs feet and deep fried pork skins at Club Gitmo down in Cuba as a further deterrent!

[Edited 2007-12-30 23:52:03]
 
flynavy
Posts: 2179
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:32 am



Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 87):

Well I'll be damned. That makes perfect sense - really, it does. Break out the bacon!
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baroque
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:57 am



Quoting Lehpron (Reply 82):
I find that killing radicals only brings more recruits into the radical team, who take revenge for their fallen brethren, and we react by killing them. It's a cycle, like the Israeli-Palistine issue, quite chicken-egg. Personally I'm loosing interest in taking a side, I don't care who started it, just wondering who's willing to stop. Radicals won't stop, its against their nature to be fair.

True, but in spite of that excellent contribution, similar from Nav and an interesting insight from Mandala that the western view of many Islamic countries is a tad jaundiced, I just quit this thread until it gets cleaned up.

Yours in protest

Baroque.
 
mandala499
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:12 pm

They can't be ignored, but don't give them too much attention...
Make sure the moderates feel that it's better to be a moderate... but at the same time open your arms to the hardliners who are softening up.

Bombing them, marginalizing them, you're just hardening them up... Kill poverty, kill hopelessness... the two key ingredients to radicalization. In 2000, we had problems with hardliners, because of poverty due to economic collapse in 97-98... before that, we got problems because the government did marginalize and politicise religious activities....

So you see the ingredients... now we didn't bomb them to hell, because that would just invite more to join them. In the end, economic recovery, a booming entertainment and small business sector cut off the feeding lines to the radicals. Now we are seeing it more widespread than the 90s. The radicals are loosing ground... The giant blow came earlier this year when new religious "cults" came up... bringing radicals and "hippioes" onto the scene has made many moderates here thinking... "what's been missing in the way Islam has been taught"... rote learning and radical interpretation is slowly giving way to more humanist and other forms of progressive thinking... though this new direction is still fragile...
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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scbriml
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:44 pm



Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 3):
It sure is. You need the following.

None of that has worked so far.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 10):
Furthermore, IMO the single largest base of extremism lies in Pakistan - a country with no oil whatsoever, and one that is not even Arab.

The "wild region" of the Pakistan/Afghanistan border seems to be a significant breeding ground for extremism. Terrorists seem to be free to come and go as they please. This is a problem and recent events in Pakistan only highlight the unstable nature of the country. I think what happens in Pakistan in the next couple of years is crucial.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 13):
Not at all. I think peace can be achieved with superior firepower.

It hasn't worked so far. What are you going to try next, even bigger bombs?

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 13):
I also believe that any act of aggression against our society needs to be re-visited upon the aggressor in even greater strength.

OK, so who exactly are you going to bomb the crap out of when a suicide bomber blows himself up in Macy's? Retaliatory bombing that results in the deaths of innocent women and children only fuels another batch of extremists. It becomes an endless cycle of violence. Ask Israel.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:49 pm

To answer the question. Yes, I think radical Islam is stoppable. But, I believe it can only be stopped when the vast majority of law-abiding, peaceful Muslims make it very clear that they do not support, and will take steps to eradicate, the extremists and the radical clerics in their midst.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:27 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 92):
To answer the question. Yes, I think radical Islam is stoppable. But, I believe it can only be stopped when the vast majority of law-abiding, peaceful Muslims make it very clear that they do not support, and will take steps to eradicate, the extremists and the radical clerics in their midst.

I read you loud and clear- wish it could be done -but in order to access the population one needs the control of the media -TV ,Radio and Papers- and those are in the hands of the controlling gang.While friday prayer is still a non -negligible factor of brainwash,most households in the Arab world -also women,which we never mention in our discussions- use mainly TV as main source for information.
Al Azar still determines the guidelines for many Muslims even outside Egypt.As long as the great mufti of Egypt remains conservative-male centered -unflexible,not much will change.
There are many moderate clerics in Europe and even in Arab countries,but they don't get into the media.
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wingnut767
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:54 pm



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 85):
the US-inspired Iraq-Iran War

Just curious on how the US inspired it?
Yakum purkan min shmaya
 
AGM100
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:25 pm

The answer is .. Not for a very very very long time ... if ever. The US will probably be gone as the superpower ,China will use its "special education "system in those cozy re-education camps.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
bhill
Posts: 1888
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:34 pm

Sure...with a healthy dose of Democracy...Religion and Politics never never never never mix...you are always going to have "extremists" in every society; but once you have the population in said society having ownership (and freedom) in the Government they have (fairly) elected to govern them, and the Rule Of Law to live under...all bets are off.

http://www.meforum.org/article/1763
Carpe Pices
 
PPVRA
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:49 pm



Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 3):

That's a proven way to get more of them, not less.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
NAV20
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RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Tue Jan 01, 2008 12:31 am



Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 94):
Just curious on how the US inspired it?

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

Care to answer at least some of my points in #85 now, Wingnut767?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4961
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Is Radical Islam Stopable?

Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:51 am



Quoting QR332 (Reply 63):
Quoting Alessandro (Reply 58):
Wrong but their production don´t cover their domestic needs.
As for extremists, too much money from natural resources in the area where does extremists origin from, when they have to work to survive then their extreme ideas will become less valid.

Many of the extremists out there are uneducated and poor - not all Arabs use $100 bills in the place of toilet paper

I do agree, the gunmen who killed a group of Greek christian tourists, really thought they where Israelis (blue and white flag on the bus fooled them perhaps?). They later apologized, but the damage was already done.
Also the bombing in Amman, a country that hasn´t had any terrrorist attacks since black september, Al-Quieda apologized for it.
No, I think poverty means that they have to fight to survive and no one can offer them money like Saddam Hussein Al-Tikrit did to the Palestinian suicidebombers.
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