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Klaus
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:15 pm



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 99):
It's just too bad that some posters feel the need to delete threads like this. I always wonder what prompts people to be so intent on squelching discussion on topics they disagree with.

Well, in the beginning it didn't look too good. But this thread also shows that threads can improve as much as deteriorate.
 
cfalk
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:36 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 95):
This has become one of the most interesting threads on this topic to date (much to my surprise!) and I appreciate the efforts on all sides (explicitly including Cfalk) to share experiences and opinions in a generally civilized manner, even where our conclusions may differ.

Thank you for the complement, and the same goes for you. My intention was never to simply slam Muslims. These are thoughts that have been building in me for years, and with our infatuation with political correctness, it seems almost impossible to actually come out and discuss these opinions and concerns honestly. I'm glad that some of us have managed to do this here. (and thanks to the moderators - I'm sure we kinda pushed the limits a little of what's usually tolerated, but I think it has been worth it.)

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 97):
Yes you are right, my efforts/opinions/beliefs, are no more than "just another perspective"... hopefully a useful one for all of us.

Yes but they are not just "another perspective". More on that below.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 97):
If I go to a Mosque and the guy just keeps babbling on in Arabic, how the hell am I supposed to know what he was saying? If they do that here, a lot of mosques would be empty!

My understanding is that as the Qu'ran is written in Arabic, which is still a living language, and that the Qu'ran is considered the actual word of Allah, it was a requirement that most of the preaching and learning be done in that language. Probably the best thing to happen to Christianity is the widespread acceptance of translated bibles - since the original is written in several long-dead languages. It allows us to be sceptical over exact wordings, and to seek the overall meaning or the lessons behind the words, rather than the message of a particular passage.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 93):

I want to thank you for your calm and enlightening arguments. You and I might still not see eye to eye, but I respect your experiences, being yourself literally pursued for your moderate position, and the sad experience with your mother. I think we both agree that redical Islam is a dasterdly entity that has and will turn good people to the worst of mischief, and that thier number is far greater than the "small minority" that we often hear quoted.

But your scholarship and patient explanation of the parts of Islam that I have challenged and you have responded to have not fallen on deaf ears. I can's say that I've changed my mind - I still have some very serious and fundemental problems with Islam itself. But your posts have convinced me to perhaps take a step back and give Islam a bit more benefit of the doubt that I may have given before.

I still feel that we are headed for a major conflict between Islam and the rest of the world. When I made this post, I had become convinced that the cause was Islam itself. Perhaps I was wrong in this, and that it is more a problem of misinterpretation. But I would still feel that Islam is too damned easy to misinterpret, with passages that seem to be pretty damned agressive, and the fact that Mohammed himself was a warrior, not a peacemaker.

PS: Welcome to my RU list

[Edited 2008-01-06 13:37:25]
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
EvilForce
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:18 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 101):
My understanding is that as the Qu'ran is written in Arabic, which is still a living language, and that the Qu'ran is considered the actual word of Allah, it was a requirement that most of the preaching and learning be done in that language. Probably the best thing to happen to Christianity is the widespread acceptance of translated bibles - since the original is written in several long-dead languages. It allows us to be sceptical over exact wordings, and to seek the overall meaning or the lessons behind the words, rather than the message of a particular passage.

You're claiming that the bible is not the word of god to most Christians???
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
cfalk
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:58 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 102):
You're claiming that the bible is not the word of god to most Christians???

No educated Christian would ever claim that it is. The bible is a collection of books written by men over a period of 1500 years or so. Christians believe they were inspired by God. Inspired by, not written by. And as any work of man, they can be inaccurate or erroneous.

But that does not detract from the message that the bible conveys. It is just an imperfect means of conveying it.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
IADCA
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:19 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 103):
No educated Christian would ever claim that it is.

Well, more than a quarter of the US population in 2006 believed that the Bible is the literal word of God. While I agree with you on your point about educated Christians realizing the Bible's provenance, I'd also point out that, as the article mentions, the "literal-word-of-God" argument is most widely held among Southerners, Republicans, and Protestants, which suggests that it's likely to be disproportionally represented in the present American government. Seems that no matter what an educated Christian would believe, we've got a lot of non-educated ones in government right now.

Here's the article with the poll numbers: http://www.biblicalrecorder.org/cont...6/05_31_2006/ne310506literal.shtml

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 88):
God knows how many taxis I have gotten into where the driver has turned his passenger seat into a kind of Osama Bin Ladin shrine. Believe me, whenever I am in a Muslim nation, I keep my mouth shut and ears open. And what I hear scares the crap out of me. Very rarely do I hear opinions akin to 'live and let live'.

And the same thing would happen were you a foreign visitor in the US. The people who talk loudly and publicly about other cultures are extremely rarely the ones who are tolerant thereof. As Richard Nixon referred to it in the early 1970s, the "Silent Majority." As for taxi drivers, I always make a point to talk to cabdrivers. They're interesting people. They're also frequently ignorant zealots, and that's something I've noticed to be true almost everywhere I've talked to cabbies. I mean, what would you think about America if your basis for your opinion of the politics and behavior of its people was DC cabdrivers and half-crazed activists who surround Metro stations all day and spout unsolicited political beliefs?
 
cfalk
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:36 pm



Quoting IADCA (Reply 104):
Well, more than a quarter of the US population in 2006 believed that the Bible is the literal word of God.

Like I said, 'educated'.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 104):
And the same thing would happen were you a foreign visitor in the US. The people who talk loudly and publicly about other cultures are extremely rarely the ones who are tolerant thereof.

But Americans don't go around wishing people death just because people are not Americans, or Christian or whatever, and they don't go bombing civilian targets believing they are legitimate. What gets our goat is how easily one particular segment of human society will take any excuse to gather in the streets and rage on about wanting to kill people. It's pretty unique. Even the Nazis never did that.

Big version: Width: 400 Height: 268 File size: 37kb
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halls120
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:41 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 101):
I still feel that we are headed for a major conflict between Islam and the rest of the world. When I made this post, I had become convinced that the cause was Islam itself. Perhaps I was wrong in this, and that it is more a problem of misinterpretation. But I would still feel that Islam is too damned easy to misinterpret, with passages that seem to be pretty damned agressive, and the fact that Mohammed himself was a warrior, not a peacemaker.

The problem with each and every religious belief is not found in their written creed or doctrine. The problem has always been how the doctrine has been inappropriately interpreted and used. Unfortunately for the world today, a small group of radical extremists have successfully hijacked one religion, and have successfully used it to advance their violent aims.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 104):
Quoting Cfalk (Reply 103):
No educated Christian would ever claim that it is.

Well, more than a quarter of the US population in 2006 believed that the Bible is the literal word of God.

Do you have factual support for this estimate, or is it a SWAG?

Quoting IADCA (Reply 104):
I'd also point out that, as the article mentions, the "literal-word-of-God" argument is most widely held among Southerners, Republicans, and Protestants, which suggests that it's likely to be disproportionally represented in the present American government.

You do realize, of course, that only a very small minority of the federal workforce is made up of elected or appointed officials, don't you? Which means a more accurate statement would be "the "literal-word-of-God" argument is most widely held among Southerners, Republicans, and Protestants, which suggests that it's likely to be disproportionally represented in the small fraction of elected and appointed officials in the present American government."

Quoting IADCA (Reply 104):
Seems that no matter what an educated Christian would believe, we've got a lot of non-educated ones in government right now.

Yes, we do. And that lack of education crosses all religious and party lines.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
EvilForce
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:41 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 103):
No educated Christian would ever claim that it is. The bible is a collection of books written by men over a period of 1500 years or so. Christians believe they were inspired by God. Inspired by, not written by. And as any work of man, they can be inaccurate or erroneous.

Wrong.

"Books written by men have no unity of thought on even one subject. Some of them invariably disagree with others. But there is perfect unity between the books of the Bible -- which speak of hundreds of subjects in many fields. There is no contradiction among them.

Who but God could produce such a book?"

"If the Bible is not God's Word, then the Bible is full of lies. Could a book so filled with lies cause millions of people to turn from their sins -- including lying?"

http://www.believers.org/believe/bel191.htm

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

"The Bible not only contains the word of God; it is the word of God. " - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02543a.htm

From the Odenton Baptist Church:

"Our manner of worship is traditional; our Bible; the King James Bible; is the pure word of God, and our gospel (the Lord’s gospel) is older than creation. " - http://www.odentonbaptist.org/?q=node/2

The Bible Baptist Church:

"The King James Bible is the preserved and infallible words of God. It doesn't merely "contain" the word of God: it IS the word of God. I'm absolutely sure of it." - http://www.av1611.org/kjv/knowkjv.html

A 2004 Gallup poll:

"About one-third of Americans believe the Bible is absolutely accurate and that it should be taken literally word for word, according to a recent Gallup poll, and the majority of those who don't believe the Bible is literally true believe it is the inspired word of God." - http://theimmoralminority.blogspot.com/2007_05_01_archive.html - http://www.galluppoll.com/content/default.aspx?ci=21814

International Council on Biblical Inerrancy, an interdenominational joint effort by hundreds of evangelical scholars and leaders said:

"Holy Scripture, being God's own Word, written by men prepared and superintended by His Spirit, is of infallible divine authority in all matters upon which it touches: It is to be believed, as God's instruction, in all that it affirms; obeyed, as God's command, in all that it requires; embraced, as God's pledge, in all that it promises." - http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/chicago.htm

Association of Free Lutheran Congregations say:

"The Bible is the divinely inspired, revealed, inerrant, and authoritative Word of God and as such is trustworthy in all its parts and is the supreme and only rule of faith and practice."

I could go on and on, but you should get the point. You can't say all Muslims believe that the Koran is the word of god yet deny all Christians or "any thinking Christian" doesn't belief similarly. Unreal.






 Yeah sure
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halls120
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:47 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 107):
"About one-third of Americans believe the Bible is absolutely accurate and that it should be taken literally word for word, according to a recent Gallup poll, and the majority of those who don't believe the Bible is literally true believe it is the inspired word of God." -

Which means that two thirds (at least) of Americans don't believe that the Bible is the literal Word of God.

And some that do ignore it when it suits their purposes, so I'm not sure that the one-third poll result is all that accurate.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
IADCA
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:50 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 105):
What gets our goat is how easily one particular segment of human society will take any excuse to gather in the streets and rage on about wanting to kill people.

They gather in the streets because that's the best way they have to get their message out. Extremist Americans do their hateful spewing on the internet. I can't for the life of my why people of any faith spend so much time bitching about other people instead of working to better their own lives. Everyone's engaged in a blame game of putting responsibility for his own troubles on someone else, and nowhere is this more prevalent than in American politics.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 105):
But Americans don't go around wishing people death just because people are not Americans, or Christian or whatever, and they don't go bombing civilian targets believing they are legitimate.

They don't? You ever listen to uneducated Americans rant and rave about foreigners and non-Christians? I hear it all the time. As for the bombing, I suppose some of this has to do with the fact that we actually have a standing army to protect ourselves and exert our country's political will; in many other places (simplifying a lot here), the army does neither, and so people form paramilitaries or just go to extreme self-help to what they perceive as right to protect and further their goals.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 105):
Like I said, 'educated'.

And as my point was, it doesn't f'in matter since so many people are uneducated. The segment of this country that explicitly integrates religion into its politics is the exact segment that is as you say "uneducated." The "educated Christians" seem to overwhelmingly keep politics and religion separate. Maybe a lesson there?
 
EvilForce
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:50 pm



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 108):
Which means that two thirds (at least) of Americans don't believe that the Bible is the literal Word of God.

No. Rather if you read the results that the majority of those that don't believe it's the literal word of God do believe it's the inspired word of God.

Christians are every bit as bad as Muslims. Period.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
Klaus
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:52 pm



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 108):
Which means that two thirds (at least) of Americans don't believe that the Bible is the literal Word of God.

You are aware that those flag-burning mobs usually number in the tens, hundreds or at most thousands among a muslim population of many millions...?  eyebrow 

Western societies are stabilized primarily by their nonreligious culture and by their successful economies, not by christianity.

We have at least partially left behind our former religions - that is the crucial difference (pun not intended).
 
EvilForce
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:57 pm



Quoting IADCA (Reply 109):
Quoting Cfalk (Reply 105):
But Americans don't go around wishing people death just because people are not Americans, or Christian or whatever, and they don't go bombing civilian targets believing they are legitimate.

They don't? You ever listen to uneducated Americans rant and rave about foreigners and non-Christians? I hear it all the time. As for the bombing, I suppose some of this has to do with the fact that we actually have a standing army to protect ourselves and exert our country's political will; in many other places (simplifying a lot here), the army does neither, and so people form paramilitaries or just go to extreme self-help to what they perceive as right to protect and further their goals.

Agreed. How many times have you heard the phrase "Nuke Mecca", "Bomb them back to the stone age", and other similar phrases?

I love how the various outraged anti-Islam people complain that Muslim suicide bombers target "innocents", while completely ignoring the US bombing the snot out of a country, including bombs that err off course and take out neighborhoods. They call these suicide bombers "cowardly", yet the US has a military that can bomb from 35,000 feet up. If these so called Christians believed the bible they would know killing was wrong. Killing is killing. One form is no less offensive than another.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
IADCA
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:57 pm



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 106):
Do you have factual support for this estimate, or is it a SWAG?

Sorry, same link posted later in the post. Data's from the Gallup poll referenced in this article: http://www.biblicalrecorder.org/cont...6/05_31_2006/ne310506literal.shtml

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 106):
You do realize, of course, that only a very small minority of the federal workforce is made up of elected or appointed officials, don't you? Which means a more accurate statement would be "the "literal-word-of-God" argument is most widely held among Southerners, Republicans, and Protestants, which suggests that it's likely to be disproportionally represented in the small fraction of elected and appointed officials in the present American government."

Yes, I do. I should have said it more clearly, as you pointed out, especially considering I'm the child of two former civil servants. However, I stand by the point to the extent that appointed officials hold a large (and seemingly increasing, under the current administration) influence over policy-making, particularly in the Cabinet departments. Furthermore, politics is further bleeding into and polluting even the career civil-service pool. I know a couple people roughly my age who claim they were asked about their views on abortion, homosexuality, etc in their interviews for entry-level positions (even at the Department of Agriculture!). Of course, they may be totally bitter BS artists, since they didn't get hired. Who knows.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 106):
Yes, we do. And that lack of education crosses all religious and party lines.

That's damn true.
 
EvilForce
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:05 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 111):
Western societies are stabilized primarily by their nonreligious culture and by their successful economies, not by christianity.

Yup. Wealth and prosperity are the great pacifiers of mankind. Even regular everyday crime decreases when our own economy picks up steam. When people have a way of bettering their lives and the lives of their children via secular means, they do so. When there is no freedom to do these things, radicalism and fundamentalism take hold.

The United States is guilty of helping countries like Saudi quell the freedoms of their own people so our own economic interests (oil) are not threatened. By helping shiekdoms and dictatorships to stand on their own people's throats we bear responsibility for these actions.

The streets are filled with angry young men because there are no jobs or economic incentives for them to be secular. When you have idle young men they join gangs if the live in Los Angeles or join Islamic gangs in the Middle East. It's not a religious problem at all. It's an economic problem.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
halls120
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:12 am



Quoting IADCA (Reply 113):
Yes, I do. I should have said it more clearly, as you pointed out, especially considering I'm the child of two former civil servants. However, I stand by the point to the extent that appointed officials hold a large (and seemingly increasing, under the current administration) influence over policy-making, particularly in the Cabinet departments.

Well, I work in a Cabinet Department. In my particular Division, there is one Senate confirmed position, and 4 Schedule C positions among senior managers. There are at least 75 managers who are career employees. So we have 5 "politicals" out of several hundred attorneys.

As a manager, I make decisions every day that do not rise to level of needing to be blessed by one of the 5 political appointees. Do the critical decisions go to the top? Sure. But in the past 10 years, I've seen only a handful of decisions be affected on ideological grounds, and in only one case, do I believe that the decision was grossly unwarranted. While I many not have agreed with the majority of those decisions, I cannot honestly say that the decision was not appropriate.

This is what happens when you win elections. And if you think that when the democrats win the White House later this year that they won't use their power and position to influence decisions according to their ideological bent, I have a bridge to sell you.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 113):
Furthermore, politics is further bleeding into and polluting even the career civil-service pool. I know a couple people roughly my age who claim they were asked about their views on abortion, homosexuality, etc in their interviews for entry-level positions (even at the Department of Agriculture!). Of course, they may be totally bitter BS artists, since they didn't get hired. Who knows.

The civil service pool in Washington DC is overwhelmingly blue. I've been here since 1991, and there are roughly 3 democrats for every republican, at least among my colleagues.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
IADCA
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:26 am



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 115):
This is what happens when you win elections. And if you think that when the democrats win the White House later this year that they won't use their power and position to influence decisions according to their ideological bent, I have a bridge to sell you.

Oh, I don't believe that at all. They'll do every bit as much as the GOP has done, and I won't like it any more then. I (however biased, of course) think that the civil service is full of a large number of experienced and capable people who should generally be left to run their own shops, and can do it a lot better when not meddled with. What's really striking though is the politicization of departments that weren't traditionally as obviously political as Justice (which is where I assume you are). I have family members and friends who have been longtime employees (some quite high-level) at DOT, for example, and they've complained about getting a lot more flak from the White House under Bush than ever before.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 115):
The civil service pool in Washington DC is overwhelmingly blue. I've been here since 1991, and there are roughly 3 democrats for every republican, at least among my colleagues.

I'd say that's about right from my experience as well. I think part of it is that the area around DC and the city itself have blue-leaning populations, but partly also that a lot more liberal types tend to work in government. I suppose the correlation runs both ways. It seems pretty consistent that when I know two people with similar qualifications, one government and one not, almost always the more conservative one is the private sector employee.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 115):
As a manager, I make decisions every day that do not rise to level of needing to be blessed by one of the 5 political appointees. Do the critical decisions go to the top? Sure.

Yeah, but that's the problem. I don't see the desirability of political hacks of any stripe meddling in affairs. Actually, I'm more or less against political appointees as a general matter; the fewer the better. Perhaps what bothers me more is the conversion of even civil-service hiring into quasi-political appointments, as it taints the pool of people who do the vast majority of the work.
 
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asuflyer05
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:28 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 18):

Wrong. Islam justifies it.

You don't know what you're talking about. Islam is a religion of peace.  sarcastic 
 
halls120
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:35 am



Quoting IADCA (Reply 116):
I (however biased, of course) think that the civil service is full of a large number of experienced and capable people who should generally be left to run their own shops, and can do it a lot better when not meddled with.

Damn right!  Wink

Quoting IADCA (Reply 116):
What's really striking though is the politicization of departments that weren't traditionally as obviously political as Justice (which is where I assume you are).

Don't buy into the media hype about DOJ being overly politicized during this administration. The only parts of the Department that are politicized - routinely by both parties - are the very small Office of Legal Policy, the Office of Legal Counsel, and the management of the Civil Rights and Environment and Natural Resources Division.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 116):
I have family members and friends who have been longtime employees (some quite high-level) at DOT, for example, and they've complained about getting a lot more flak from the White House under Bush than ever before.

 rotfl  wow, I didn't think anybody really cared about what DOT did.

One thing this administration does that it's predecessors haven't been able to do is enforce "party discipline" across the administration. For better or worse, this administration actually expects its appointees in every department to be responsive to WH policy goals.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
stratosphere
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:28 am

Well I don't know what to say but I do know this.. When the twin towers were destroyed on 9/11 there were Muslims dancing in the street in Paterson NJ because I saw it with my own eyes. Am I prejudice??? You bet. I know what I saw. These asswipes make a living in this country and my guess is that it is better than most americans. Because here again foreigners have a better path to the American dream then a native born American. You cannot go to any gas station in this country and not see a Muslim running it. That is not my imagination. Yet they have the audacity to take pleasure in the death and destruction and terrorism that took place on that day.. So to the peaceful Muslims on this board I am sorry but until you stand up and address this you will continue to suffer criticism.
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:44 am



Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 119):
.. When the twin towers were destroyed on 9/11 there were Muslims dancing in the street in Paterson NJ because I saw it with my own eyes. Am I prejudice???

proof? How exactly does a Muslim look? I doubt Muslim were trying to be Muslim after 9/11 for the fear of getting shot.

Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 119):
americans. Because here again foreigners have a better path to the American dream then a native born American. You cannot go to any gas station in this country and not see a Muslim running it.

once again baseless comments. Muslim immigrants come from various economic backgrounds, and what is the problem that an educated Muslim from another country comes here? If the average Muslim immigrant attains a higher level of education that the average American, then so what?

Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 119):
You cannot go to any gas station in this country and not see a Muslim running it.

so? and I havent noticed this once, the one middle-easterners I have seen run the place are Persian Jews in Los Angeles and a few Indians. Just to let you know, Muslims have been living in this country since about the 1880's and most Muslim are born in the US and are all immigrants as you would like to believe, it is our country as much as it is yours.

Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 119):
These asswipes make a living in this country

and finally to answer your question, "Are you prejudiced?" Absolutely, by making such derogotary prejudiced remarks.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
jafa39
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:12 am



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 120):
proof? How exactly does a Muslim look?

If he saw it with his own eyes he doesn't need to prove it to you, you are not the police and it is not very nice to attack someone's personal experiences in this way.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 120):
You cannot go to any gas station in this country and not see a Muslim running it.

once again baseless comments

Well, I would reckon not, I don't live in the US but certain cultures tend to do certain types of work.....try buying a pint of milk at 10pm in NZ and not dealing with an Asian....in the UK....heaps of Indians and Pakistanis running gas stations.

Try and simmer down a bit Lax and let people own their opinions without having to provide proof to you.....you're getting a bit of a reputation on a.net you know bro........


Hate to see you get another ban  Wink
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:16 am



Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 121):
Hate to see you get another ban

Hey, I'm not the one who called Muslim in America asswipes

Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 121):
don't live in the US but certain cultures tend to do certain types of work

I know that, but he seems to have a problem with his perception of the growing wealth of non-whites in the US, which seems quite prejudiced to me. So what if the Indian or the Pakistani or the Persian is maknig 3 or 4 times the average US income, he earned it and he is repaying the US by paying taxes.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
jafa39
Posts: 4320
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:14 pm

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:59 am



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 122):
I know that, but he seems to have a problem with his perception of the growing wealth of non-whites in the US, which seems quite prejudiced to me. So what if the Indian or the Pakistani or the Persian is maknig 3 or 4 times the average US income, he earned it and he is repaying the US by paying taxes.

Yeah but whenever a country has an influx of "foreigners" who do well, you invariably get this sort of reaction....take Fiji for instance, the imported Indian labour did so well for themselves that laws were passed to curb their influence and ability to own land.

Often people think (and sometimes rightly so) that incomers get a better helping-hand from the govt than the white population (or whatever colour they are)...in some cases this is true....seen it with my own eyes in London in countless scenarios and whilst I don't support racism or hatred.....sometimes you wonder whose side your govt it on!!

Now I live in NZ I see the other side of the coin, well, boths sides actually. As a European immigrant I had to have money, a degree and a job to get in, a police check and good English language skills.....some Pacific Islanders can get in on the family category, no skills, no money and dubious langauge skills and they get benefits and access to housing that I would not have got an some NZers would have difficulty accessing.

And so people can feel resentment to both sets of immigrants....I can understand that.......just how far people go with their opinions varies but try to see the big picture, the web is one of the few places you can voice an extreme opinion and that goes for both sides of the equation.

I don't doubt for one minute that the poster has seen what he claims to have seen....I've seen it too......maybe challenge his attitude but challenging him to provide proof and making like he is a liar will do nothing to soften that stance, quite the opposite in fact.

You can't change people by going head to head but they will adapt to new environments, talk to the man about how things are for him, you never know how it may pan out  Smile
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
stratosphere
Posts: 1981
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:45 am



Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 123):
incomers get a better helping-hand from the govt than the white population (or whatever colour they are)...in some cases this is true..

You bet it's true....My aunt tried to start a small business quite some time ago and for the life of her she could not get a small business loan..a LOAN I might add. Well she found out that the good ole USA.... GIVES as in don't pay us back money to immigrants to help them start businesses. Gee I guess I do have a problem don't I.
 
stratosphere
Posts: 1981
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:57 am



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 120):
How exactly does a Muslim look?

I will give you that.. Ok lets say ummm middle eastern. But I will bet my paycheck that he is muslim.
 
EvilForce
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:15 am



Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 124):
You bet it's true....My aunt tried to start a small business quite some time ago and for the life of her she could not get a small business loan..a LOAN I might add. Well she found out that the good ole USA.... GIVES as in don't pay us back money to immigrants to help them start businesses. Gee I guess I do have a problem don't I.

Your racist diatribe notwithstanding this post is dead wrong.

http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/immigrants.asp
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
EvilForce
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:24 am

And I'm sure if you check the archives here at anet, you will have the various Americans lauding, laughing, and celebrating the "Shock and Awe" campaign that the Bushies had sold. I watched the same thing happen on other discussion boards. I find that behavior every bit as disgusting as your claim of Muslims celebrating in the street over 9/11. I mean a news show would never try to invoke a visceral reaction from their audience now would they?
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
stratosphere
Posts: 1981
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:42 am

Bush, Well you will find me in agreement with you on that idiot. I might seem racist hell maybe I am but it is because of things that have happened around me and to me. I do have a habit of painting with a broad brush. There are a lot of good people of all races and creeds out there but my temper does get the best of me sometimes. That is why we have a forum and can air it out. A lot of unfairness out there on EVERY front. We can agree to disagree.
 
stratosphere
Posts: 1981
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:49 am

Oh hey Evil your link on post 126 has dispelled some myths but my statement is spot on. I know TWO immigrants who have benefitted from the money providied to them to start businesses so I know it is true. I would not care so much about it if our govenment didnt make it so hard for us to have the same opportunity. White CEO's not withstanding.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:50 pm



Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 121):
Try and simmer down a bit Lax and let people own their opinions without having to provide proof to you.....you're getting a bit of a reputation on a.net you know bro........

Yeah Lax, simmer down, I mean the last time I was in NZ, there were Maoris waving spears and doing Hakas down the main street of Christchurch. Really tense it was. So bad that when we got back with enormous relief to Sinney, quarantine went over us with a fine tooth comb.

Oh no, I have that slightly wrong the reason AQIS had out their nit combs was because we were behind a group of vet students and had been in Timaru where an incorrect report of foot and mouth had been circulated.

But you KNOW something in all that confused mess is bound to be true - but which? So just simmer down and accept the transposition of a crowd in the Jordan capital to NY, and from one Muslim owns a gas station to all gas stations are owned by Muslims. It is quite simple once you get the hang of it.  Wow!
 
EvilForce
Posts: 974
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:12 am

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:52 pm



Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 129):
I know TWO immigrants who have benefitted from the money providied to them to start businesses so I know it is true.

Under which program did the receive funds? As an SBA loan? A community action grant? Some other form of loan?

As far as any govt. small business program I'm aware of any small business beneficiary must be a citizen and/or the business incorporated in the United States paying any taxes due to the various governmental entities. Which means that ANY citizen regardless of race, religion or even how many years / generations they have been here in the US qualifies for said loans.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
jafa39
Posts: 4320
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:06 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 130):
Yeah Lax, simmer down, I mean the last time I was in NZ, there were Maoris waving spears and doing Hakas down the main street of Christchurch. Really tense it was

They do it to keep the Australians away........or maybe they were protesting that they didn't own any gas stations  Wink
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:28 pm



Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 132):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 130):
Yeah Lax, simmer down, I mean the last time I was in NZ, there were Maoris waving spears and doing Hakas down the main street of Christchurch. Really tense it was

They do it to keep the Australians away........or maybe they were protesting that they didn't own any gas stations

No, they don't and they do not need to, since they have such ready access to Maori overdrive.  Big grin  Big grin

But you will never keep us away just with Maoris, too beautiful a country for that ever to have a chance to work!! Oh for the Haast Schists.
 
mandala499
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RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:47 pm



Quote:
My understanding is that as the Qu'ran is written in Arabic, which is still a living language, and that the Qu'ran is considered the actual word of Allah, it was a requirement that most of the preaching and learning be done in that language. Probably the best thing to happen to Christianity is the widespread acceptance of translated bibles - since the original is written in several long-dead languages. It allows us to be sceptical over exact wordings, and to seek the overall meaning or the lessons behind the words, rather than the message of a particular passage.

Prayers from the Qur'An are done in Arabic. Sermons are done in local lingo. Prayers that are not from the Sura' in the Qur'an are done in the local lingo. There's a discussion in the National Council of Ulamas here about whether or not to allow prayers from the Qur'An to be done in local lingo.

Quote:
I think we both agree that redical Islam is a dasterdly entity that has and will turn good people to the worst of mischief, and that thier number is far greater than the "small minority" that we often hear quoted.

They're small, I dare say very small, but very very vocal, and growing... You don't need large numbers to be heard, you just need to hit the right buttons (like in their case, the detonator button) to be heard globally.

Quote:
But your scholarship and patient explanation of the parts of Islam that I have challenged and you have responded to have not fallen on deaf ears. I can's say that I've changed my mind - I still have some very serious and fundemental problems with Islam itself. But your posts have convinced me to perhaps take a step back and give Islam a bit more benefit of the doubt that I may have given before.

The aim of what I write is not to change people's minds. I'm just saying that it's not all violent, bloody and gore (not Al) in the meaning because it all depends on how one translate it in word and meaning. The very serious and fundamental problems is that Islam is a loose structure but one where it has been open to what I call, "unqualified instruction".

A step back can be good, good or bad, it's up to you. I just want people to know more about the different facets of Islam, not just the ones we hear in the media.

Quote:
I still feel that we are headed for a major conflict between Islam and the rest of the world. When I made this post, I had become convinced that the cause was Islam itself. Perhaps I was wrong in this, and that it is more a problem of misinterpretation. But I would still feel that Islam is too damned easy to misinterpret, with passages that seem to be pretty damned agressive, and the fact that Mohammed himself was a warrior, not a peacemaker.

The major conflict is the threat at the moment and it is what those whackos want! However, it has already happened... that is between those whackos vs the rest of the world (moderate Muslims included)... but "the rest of the world" is vulnerable as it is disunited in understanding, vision and mission... there's no need to get fuzzed up and cuddly with each other, but a little more understanding can go a looooooong waaaay.... You bring the guns and choppers, we stand our ground on our principles and resist them infiltrating our minds, and let those whackoes stay outside enjoy hiding in their caves in their own little whacked up world.

If we cannot agree, then at least we utilize the differences to fight a common enemy through different ways we go about things... (this is why the "you're either with us or against us" policy was IMHO a total disaster).

The ease of interpretation is due to the Qur'An being written in old Arabic (like Olde English vs Modern English)... just like old literature, sometimes it's not easy to understand the true meaning, and sometimes, the simple conversion to the modern version bears no resemblance to an academic conversion to today's language. I find the passages no more violent than passages from 1000 - 1600 regarding the manner it was written in. What doesn't help is the way the paragraphs are made, which makes it too easy for someone to take separate paragraphs to turn the meaning around. The Qur'An is written not only as a holy book, but also a book of Poems... hence, require thinking to understand it.

When I was young, I was told by my religious teacher, that to read to Qur'An, you need a calm and open mind. It is like a book of Poems, but not a novel. If you're mind's not up to it, it can be confusing and frustrating, and worse, misunderstood. At that age (7-12), I didn't comprehend the meaning of that he said. It was only I went to England for high school, and read some of the old English literature that I can appreciate what he said years before!

Hence, this makes it MUCH EASIER for smart and/or rich people, to use Islam and the Qur'An to go and do nasty things... and look at where they succeed? Areas of poor education!

If you want to look at the contrast, since you're in the US (let's see if it's the same as the UK in this case...) go and see the moslem immigrant coming from a poor background or country, and compare him/her to one from an educated background, and then compare those two to a recent (non-arabic/african/south asian, ie: most likely caucasian) convert... and see the differences...

Again, look at where the death fatwas for Salman Rushdie came from... "the usual suspects"...

Anyways, I was fortunate enough to study the Christian reformation in Europe... looking at how the Catholic church operated in those days, and the fact that everything religious was done in Latin, and how "one should not question the word of a man of God", and the requirement to be absolutely obedient to the word of God (spewed out through the mouths of the "Men of God", who a lot of the times fail to see that they're mere humans and are therefore imperfect), we see similar problems in how people understood religion and how some were misguided. Half a millenium later, the same problem is hitting Islam.

Christianity today enjoys being available in languages that are still alive, and available in the modern language as well as the old language. Islam has only began to so within the last century. In terms of secular understanding of religion, we are still half a millenium behind, but we're catching up, but the way things are, don't expect us to catch up the half a millenia within a year or two... a decade would be a crazy pace!

Quote:
PS: Welcome to my RU list

Thanks, I hope OBL will have heart failure knowing that ! LOL!

Quote:
What gets our goat is how easily one particular segment of human society will take any excuse to gather in the streets and rage on about wanting to kill people. It's pretty unique.

When there are civil strife, or civil disturbances in Indonesia, it's been drawn on religious lines. Here, we see that it's not always Muslims starting the fight or be on the rage on about wanting to kill people, Christians do that too. But when we see which regions in Indonesia this happens in, it becomes blatantly obvious that it's a cultural and social background that gets on the rage... religion becomes the sides they "happen to be in"... sometimes it really is like a riot caused by fans of competing sports teams!

Quote:
They gather in the streets because that's the best way they have to get their message out. Extremist Americans do their hateful spewing on the internet. I can't for the life of my why people of any faith spend so much time bitching about other people instead of working to better their own lives. Everyone's engaged in a blame game of putting responsibility for his own troubles on someone else, and nowhere is this more prevalent than in American politics.

Well mate, sentiments shares... and guess what, the blame game (especially in politics) is a global phenomenon!

Quote:
Western societies are stabilized primarily by their nonreligious culture and by their successful economies, not by christianity.

And wherever you may be, stable and progressive cultures of all religions as well as segments of societies of various religions are backed by the same factors... and that is possible without abandoning religion, as long as people puts a balance between what is good for the present life and what is good for the afterlife.

Quote:
How many times have you heard the phrase "Nuke Mecca", "Bomb them back to the stone age", and other similar phrases?

Bet you haven't heard Muslims saying "Nuke Saudi Arabia but protect Mecca and Medina" have you? LOL! There's quite a few who has that sentiment.

There's a joke here on the problems of religion...
Wish: "Islam would be such a nice religion if Mecca wasn't in Saudi Arabia."
Reality: "Hey, if there aren't any Arabs or if the middle east don't exist, then religion wouldn't exist! Poor God! He tried through Abraham, then Jesus, then Mohammed... and I think after that He gave up solving the Middle East!"

Quote:
Ok lets say ummm middle eastern. But I will bet my paycheck that he is muslim.

If he is Middle Eastern and has no "headgear"... well, he could be a Muslim, a Jew, a Christian, or even... an Atheist! LOL
How about the average Lebanese... Christian? Muslim? How do you know by just the look?
Then what about African Muslims... and then err... how about African Jews? Do they look any different?
How about a caucasian Muslims (converts included)? Does he/she look any different because he's Muslim?
The Chinese has all sorts... Muslims, Christians, Confucians, Buddhists, and God knows what else.
How about Indonesians? There's only an 85% chance of being a Muslim... but then, with economic distribution having a more equal if not inverted composition... the average Indonesian tourist you see in the US/Europe is more likely to be a non-Muslim.
Seriously, how do you know? You can see a girl in a skimpy tank top and she could be Muslim... Heck, my wife wears that sometimes! Oh hell! One of my ex gf's a Catholic, was more conservative in her dress that the only people she'd peeve off with her dress code was the Wahabis !

Seriously, how exactly does a Muslim look?

Jafa39 & Baroque,
LOL ! That NZ / Aussie thing with the AQIS nitpicking combs really gave me a laugh!
But I'm sorry, the problem I have with NZ is not the Maoris or the influx of immigrants, but the bloody accents!
Me being the Pohmie boy spent the first 24hrs in NZ not understanding a word anyone was saying! Even a true blue thick Aussie accent from the deepest hinterland of blokes and sheilas sounded like angels singing for those 24 hours!
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
jafa39
Posts: 4320
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:14 pm

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:08 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 133):
Oh for the Haast Schists.

I had them once....try Immodium  Wink

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 134):
Even a true blue thick Aussie accent from the deepest hinterland of blokes and sheilas sounded like angels singing for those 24 hours!

Go to your room!...AT ONCE!!!!!!  Smile  Smile
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
jamincan
Posts: 588
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:28 am

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:52 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 30):
As the New Testament preaches a much more peaceful and loving philosophy than the Old Testament, that works out fairly well.

I'm not so sure I agree. It is only with the New Testament that the penalty for not believing became eternal damnation. The Old Testament laws may be more strict; however, the New Testament penalty is far more severe.

Both the Bible and Quran can be used justify all sorts of atrocious behaviour. I deserve the penalty of death according to Old Testament law, and some radical Christian factions still advocate such a punishment; however, in general, Biblical teachings have been moderated by a, I would consider, more evolved sense of justice, and we tend to ignore those aspects of the Bible. It is no different with Islam. There may be a larger fundamentalist faction than within Christianity; however, many people within Islam moderate what they are taught, with what they inately know is right and just.

Within North America, I am certainly more fearful of the fundamentalist Christian faction, than the fundamentalist Islamic one.
 
LAXspotter
Posts: 3227
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:16 pm

RE: Interesting Article In Support Of Wife Beating

Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:24 am



Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 125):
Ok lets say ummm middle eastern. But I will bet my paycheck that he is muslim

again its an inaccurate statement, for one good reason. Most middle-eastern looking people (Arabs) Arab-Americans are about 75% Christian, not Muslim as most would think. I need to news article to believe this, as most Muslims in America that day of Middle-eastern or South Asian origin were Hispanic that day onward  Big grin

Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 124):
pay us back money to immigrants to help them start businesses

proof?
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson

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