airlinelover
Topic Author
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Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:07 pm

Yes, another fox news story (And I do think fox is more reliable then CNN..)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,320587,00.html


WASHINGTON — Five Iranian Revolutionary Guard speedboats took threatening actions toward three U.S. Navy ships sailing in the Strait of Hormuz on Sunday, FOX News has confirmed.

The U.S. ships — a cruiser, a frigate and a destroyer — were passing through the strait en route to the Persian Gulf when they took defensive action to avoid striking the close by Iranian ships and armed their weapons, but neither side fired any shots.


I, for one, would not be sad at all to see the Iranian gunboats blown to hell.. They're playing with fire.. If Makmood Imanimrod thinks that he can do whatever the hell he wants to, and keeps crap like this going, he's dead wrong.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:13 pm

Just taunting the US Navy . . .

Not smart of course . . . but nothing more. Any action the US Navy would have taken - besides the course they chose - in this instance would have not been favorably received by the rest of the world.

Now, had the little gunboats lost their minds, well - different story altogether. Splash 'em.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
dl021
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:14 pm

The Iranians have long used their gunboats to provoke responses upon which they will seek to capitalize.

It was during a pitched battle with such vessels that the USS Vincennes shot down the A300 of Iran Air. A combination of things from a running gun battle at sea and no IFF coordination between the vessel and aircraft and the heightened tension of combat served to give the Iranians a propaganda coup that served them well in their own country, at a horrific cost.

This will continue to happen until Iran replaces it's own government with one that doesn't act aggressively towards its neighbors and doesn't look for provocation with the US.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
N74JW
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:24 pm



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
in this instance would have not been favorably received by the rest of the world.

Who gives a rat's ass what the rest of the world thinks? That is the problems with fighting battles in the court of world opinion...
rm -r *
 
fridgmus
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:54 pm

When you play with fire....
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:04 pm



Quoting N74JW (Reply 3):
Who gives a rat's ass what the rest of the world thinks?

A) other countries than the USA
B) the US State Department
C) embassies of the USA
D) US companies involved in exports
-
AND far more important, the point is not really what people in the Arab World and Europe and Japan and China THINK, the point simply is that a sinking of any warship in the Straits of Hormuz might become a horrible problem for the world economy. So that your navy-commanders simply acted intelligently .
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:04 pm



Quoting N74JW (Reply 3):
Who gives a rat's ass what the rest of the world thinks?

That's working great for the Bush League, now isn't it? Their foreign policy is doing a bang-up job.  Yeah sure

Isolationism's time has passed. It's time the USA realizes this and stops thinking of itself with a "We're Number One!" and "We're the Best" mindset. We depend of the rest of the world just they depend on us. And no country is more equal than another.

Back on topic, haven't the Iranians done this before? It's nothing more than a little kid jumping in front of a parked semi truck and saying, "Na na na na na. You can't get me."
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:05 pm



Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 4):
When you play with fire....

-
then you can put OTHER people ablaze
 
Arrow
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:21 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):
The Iranians have long used their gunboats to provoke responses upon which they will seek to capitalize.

And as long as US warships are present in strength in the Persian Gulf, they will continue to do so. Ask yourself what would be the US Navy's response to a bunch of Iranian warships (assuming they had some) cruising through international waters in close proximity to a US shoreline. How does the US (and other NATO forces) respond to provocative flights from Russian long-range bombers? They send a couple of fighters up there to check them out, right?

Sounds to me like the US Navy's response was the right one in this case -- get ready to shoot, but don't do it. That's probably how the Russian bombers react when NATO fighters come after them.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
dl021
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:26 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 7):
then you can put OTHER people ablaze

Yeah, and that's the problem. They need to knock that shit off.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 6):
Isolationism's time has passed. It's time the USA realizes this and stops thinking of itself with a "We're Number One!" and "We're the Best" mindset. We depend of the rest of the world just they depend on us. And no country is more equal than another.

How is the action we didn't take defined as "isolationist"? I think that you're right, and the US needs to keep in mind that what happens in other nations impacts us more and more as time goes on. We cannot ignore things in other nations that can negatively impact us. Especially with nations trying to develop nuclear programs and have spent time and money threatening and attacking other nations who have not threatened them.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 6):
Back on topic, haven't the Iranians done this before? It's nothing more than a little kid jumping in front of a parked semi truck and saying, "Na na na na na. You can't get me."

Writing it off as childish antics is silly and doesn't work. You can't treat a nation that can cause such damage as you would a petulant child. This dismissive tactic designed to make the powers that be feel foolish for taking them seriously is actually insulting to the Iranians. If a child has an AK, then they are no longer a non-threat. THey're an uncontrollable threat without serious and immediate effort to remove the AK from that child.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Pope
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:31 pm

I hope that there are no passenger planes in the area when these tards are playing their little games. It wasn't that long ago since a couple hundred innocent people ended up at the wrong place at the wrong time during one of the stupid harrassment games.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:16 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):

It was during a pitched battle with such vessels that the USS Vincennes shot down the A300 of Iran Air.

That is completely wrong, and you should know that. IR655's tragic shoot down was solely the fault of the over aggressive, unprofessional and barbaric actions of Captain Will Rogers.

http://alt-f4.org/img/seaoflies.html
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halls120
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:46 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):

It was during a pitched battle with such vessels that the USS Vincennes shot down the A300 of Iran Air.

That is completely wrong, and you should know that. IR655's tragic shoot down was solely the fault of the over aggressive, unprofessional and barbaric actions of Captain Will Rogers.

In the opinion of someone who doesn't understand the very basic principles of the law of the sea.  rotfl 

It's very easy for an armchair sailor who hasn't ever held the responsibility of command at sea to blithely pass judgment, isn't it? Until you have, all you are doing is expressing your ignorance.

Were mistakes made by the Vincennes? Sure. And we paid compensation to the victims of that attack. But to say it was a "barbaric" attack is absurd. But after the Stark was almost sunk because its CO wasn't aggressive enough, it was pretty much inevitable that some USG ship was going to launch a missile at the first sign of a potential attack.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
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yowza
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:50 pm

Frankly this is just a bit of dick-waving and taunting. I'm not saying it was a smart move, in fact it was completely stupid but I think it's important to not get too carried away reading into this incident.

YOWza
 
N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:55 pm



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 12):

In the opinion of someone who doesn't understand the very basic principles of the law of the sea.

The Vincennes wasn't engaging a armed boat, they attacked an unarmed civilian airliner.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 12):
But to say it was a "barbaric" attack is absurd.

It was absolutely barbaric in the way it was handled. There was absolutely no indication that the aircraft was an F-14 (leaving aside the fact that IRIAF F-14s are F-14As, which are configured as pure fighter aircraft and can't attack a boat) other than Rogers' own delusions of grandeur.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 12):
But after the Stark was almost sunk because its CO wasn't aggressive enough, it was pretty much inevitable that some USG ship was going to launch a missile at the first sign of a potential attack.

None of the IRIRG boats had come within 5000 yards of the Vincennes, and there was absolutely no potential of attack from a widebody passenger aircraft flying at high altitude, squaking commercial, in a recognized passenger airway.
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sprout5199
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:58 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
That is completely wrong, and you should know that. IR655's tragic shoot down was solely the fault of the over aggressive, unprofessional and barbaric actions of Captain Will Rogers.



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 12):
In the opinion of someone who doesn't understand the very basic principles of the law of the sea.

It's very easy for an armchair sailor who hasn't ever held the responsibility of command at sea to blithely pass judgment, isn't it? Until you have, all you are doing is expressing your ignorance.

Were mistakes made by the Vincennes? Sure. And we paid compensation to the victims of that attack. But to say it was a "barbaric" attack is absurd. But after the Stark was almost sunk because its CO wasn't aggressive enough, it was pretty much inevitable that some USG ship was going to launch a missile at the first sign of a potential attack.

Lets not go into this again. The CO of the Vincennes did what all CO's have to do and what the CO of the Stark did not----Protect your command against all threats--percived or actual.

If the Iranians decide to approach any US warship with gun boats, they have been warned--don't bring a peashooter(ak-47) to a gunfight(25mm chain gun or a 5").

Dan in Jupiter
 
windshear
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:24 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
http://alt-f4.org/img/seaoflies.html

I would have that source checked out if I were you  yuck 

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:25 pm



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 12):
Were mistakes made by the Vincennes? Sure

well, a US Navy commander and his crew, unable to get the difference between an A300 and a fighter-aircraft are not exactly giving a good impression ------- B U T that incident now is offtopic in so far as it looks as if the US Navy men involved now did handle the matter very very nicely.
-
I rather would love to know on whose command those "speedboats" launched that rather hazardous show ???
 
N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:32 pm



Quoting Windshear (Reply 16):

I would have that source checked out if I were you

Newsweek Magazine? I think a respected news publication is better than your typical Wikipedia cite.
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halls120
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:37 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 12):

In the opinion of someone who doesn't understand the very basic principles of the law of the sea.

The Vincennes wasn't engaging a armed boat, they attacked an unarmed civilian airliner.

Easy to say now from the safety of your computer keyboard, isn't it? Unless you were there on the Vincennes - were you?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 12):
But to say it was a "barbaric" attack is absurd.

It was absolutely barbaric in the way it was handled. There was absolutely no indication that the aircraft was an F-14 (leaving aside the fact that IRIAF F-14s are F-14As, which are configured as pure fighter aircraft and can't attack a boat) other than Rogers' own delusions of grandeur.

Again, we have the opinion of someone who has never sat in a Combat Information Center in the heat of battle.

Who doesn't even understand the basic principles of the law of the sea, mind you.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 12):
But after the Stark was almost sunk because its CO wasn't aggressive enough, it was pretty much inevitable that some USG ship was going to launch a missile at the first sign of a potential attack.

None of the IRIRG boats had come within 5000 yards of the Vincennes, and there was absolutely no potential of attack from a widebody passenger aircraft flying at high altitude, squaking commercial, in a recognized passenger airway.

Right. On the radar blip in the CIC, there was a big label attached - "this is an unarmed civilian airliner."  sarcastic 

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 15):
Lets not go into this again. The CO of the Vincennes did what all CO's have to do and what the CO of the Stark did not----Protect your command against all threats--percived or actual.

If the Iranians decide to approach any US warship with gun boats, they have been warned--don't bring a peashooter(ak-47) to a gunfight(25mm chain gun or a 5").

It was well known in USN circles after the Stark that the next CO who got caught napping in a combat zone was going to be court-martialed.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 17):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 12):
Were mistakes made by the Vincennes? Sure

well, a US Navy commander and his crew, unable to get the difference between an A300 and a fighter-aircraft are not exactly giving a good impression ------- B U T that incident now is offtopic in so far as it looks as if the US Navy men involved now did handle the matter very very nicely.

Again, you have to remember that it isn't all that easy to distinguish a fighter jet from a civilian airliner on radar.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
rfields5421
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:41 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 5):
that a sinking of any warship in the Straits of Hormuz might become a horrible problem for the world economy.



Quoting N74JW (Reply 3):
Who gives a rat's ass what the rest of the world thinks?

You do - if you don't want the rest of the world to run out and raise the price of oil to $150 per barrel - and your gasoline costs to $4.00 per gallon.
 
miamiair
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:41 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 17):
unable to get the difference between an A300 and a fighter-aircraft are not exactly giving a good impression

What is the Radar Cross Section of an A300? What is the RDS of an F-14A? Even though the A300 may have been squaking a Xponder code, what is to keep an IIAF F-14 from doing the same?
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:47 pm



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 19):

Easy to say now from the safety of your computer keyboard, isn't it? Unless you were there on the Vincennes - were you?

No, and I am sure as hell glad I wasn't on EP-IBU that day. Then again, it is sure easy to say from the safety of the bridge of a Aegis cruiser that could not have been put in any sort of threat by the type of aircraft they claimed they thought they shot down that this was nothing but a "tragic mistake" as opposed to a reckless, and criminal show of stupidity and ego.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 19):

Right. On the radar blip in the CIC, there was a big label attached - "this is an unarmed civilian airliner." sarcastic

There isn't a big blip labeled F-14, P-3 or anything else. What they did know is that the aircraft was in a recognized airway, climbing and that even if it was an F-14 (which was almost impossible, seeing that the F-14s were based at Mehrabad to defend against a direct Iraqi attack on Tehran) that type of F-14 would pose absolutely no threat to the ship.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 19):

Again, you have to remember that it isn't all that easy to distinguish a fighter jet from a civilian airliner on radar.

So, of course, you shoot first and who cares if 290 innocent people die.  sarcastic 
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N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:50 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 21):
Even though the A300 may have been squaking a Xponder code, what is to keep an IIAF F-14 from doing the same?

Then I guess we should just shoot down every Iranian airliner flying between Bandar Abbas and Dubai (2 of them flying today) "just to be safe"  sarcastic 
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
miamiair
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:57 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):
Then I guess we should just shoot down every Iranian airliner flying between Bandar Abbas and Dubai (2 of them flying today) "just to be safe"

[sarcasm]Only if it is full of gays, the government of Iran does not condone homosexuality, and puts them to death. They should try out some of the SAMs the Russians are selling them. Kill two birds with one stone.[/sarcasm]

If the Iranian gun boats keep harassing the USN vessels, and the CO's are observing maritime law, and the ROE's, they should do everything possible to protect their commands, even if it means some real gunnery practice.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
miamiair
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:00 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 22):
F-14 would pose absolutely no threat to the ship.

And I am sure I have as much confidence of this as I have of the shutdown of Iran's nuclear ambition.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
NIKV69
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:02 pm



Quoting N74JW (Reply 3):
Who gives a rat's ass what the rest of the world thinks? That is the problems with fighting battles in the court of world opinion...

Exactly, when Iran crosses the line, (and trust me that time is coming) who is going to take care of business? Us of course so the rest of the world can kiss my ass.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 6):
Isolationism's time has passed. It's time the USA realizes this and stops thinking of itself with a "We're Number One!" and "We're the Best" mindset. We depend of the rest of the world just they depend on us. And no country is more equal than another

I will pass on this one.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 6):
Back on topic, haven't the Iranians done this before? It's nothing more than a little kid jumping in front of a parked semi truck and saying, "Na na na na na. You can't get me."

Go talk to some of the hostages they held back in the 80s. Iran is itching for a confrontation. With us as well as Israel. They hate us and they are not going away.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 20):
You do - if you don't want the rest of the world to run out and raise the price of oil to $150 per barrel - and your gasoline costs to $4.00 per gallon.

Doesn't work that way pal, if the US actually stopped with this SUV crap and conserved a bit gasoline would be 2 bucks a gallon. They don't set the price, our usage does.
Nikon from day one, Nikon till I die.
 
N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:02 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 25):

And I am sure I have as much confidence of this as I have of the shutdown of Iran's nuclear ambition.

Well, the government you put your eternal trust in has confirmed the latter and the former is just plain fact from an engineering POV.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
sprout5199
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:08 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
The Vincennes wasn't engaging a armed boat, they attacked an unarmed civilian airliner.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
It was absolutely barbaric in the way it was handled. There was absolutely no indication that the aircraft was an F-14 (leaving aside the fact that IRIAF F-14s are F-14As, which are configured as pure fighter aircraft and can't attack a boat) other than Rogers' own delusions of grandeur.

Read up on it.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 17):
well, a US Navy commander and his crew, unable to get the difference between an A300 and a fighter-aircraft are not exactly giving a good impression

Hmmm, can you tell the difference between them on a radar scope? The video will be about the same size(air search radars don't display video to relative to aircraft size very well).

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 19):
It was well known in USN circles after the Stark that the next CO who got caught napping in a combat zone was going to be court-martialed.

I know my CO said he wasn't going to get hit by any missiles period. Nothing scarier than being on mine watch on the bow and hearing the mk-13 warning horn go off, and then seeing a white one on the rail.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 22):
So, of course, you shoot first and who cares if 290 innocent people die.

No, you protect your ship the best you can. There were warnings broadcast on 121.5(IAD) and 243.0(MAD).

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 17):
B U T that incident now is offtopic in so far as it looks as if the US Navy men involved now did handle the matter very very nicely.

This what the Vincennes was dealing with, Boghammers and go-fasts, this is also part of the lessons learned from it.

Dan in Jupiter
 
N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:14 pm



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 28):

Read up on it.

I have.

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 28):

No, you protect your ship the best you can. There were warnings broadcast on 121.5(IAD) and 243.0(MAD).

The "warnings" were broadcast on military and civil emergency frequencies, neither of which IR655 would have been monitoring, or had any reason to monitor, at the time of the attack. They never broadcast anything on the ATC frequencies, which IR655 was properly monitoring.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:18 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 26):

Doesn't work that way pal, if the US actually stopped with this SUV crap and conserved a bit gasoline would be 2 bucks a gallon. They don't set the price, our usage does.

Actually, fuel consumption in the US is down.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:20 pm



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 28):
Hmmm, can you tell the difference between them on a radar scope? The video will be about the same size(air search radars don't display video to relative to aircraft size very well).

-
I you mean ME, NO I would mistake a Galaxy for a MIG-21. But I expect specialists to wait until they know. AND what well educated folks CAN see on the radar screen are things like speed and route etc.
-
 
Arrow
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:43 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
Actually, fuel consumption in the US is down.

Not nearly enough though.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 13):
Frankly this is just a bit of dick-waving and taunting. I'm not saying it was a smart move, in fact it was completely stupid but I think it's important to not get too carried away reading into this incident.

 checkmark  I'm sure there will be more and more of these incidents, hopefully all with the same outcome.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:49 pm



Quoting Arrow (Reply 32):

Not nearly enough though.

Of course, but the new CAFE regulations and real push to alternative sources will help.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
sprout5199
Posts: 1681
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:58 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):
I have.

If you have then what's with this quote?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
The Vincennes wasn't engaging a armed boat, they attacked an unarmed civilian airliner.



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 31):
AND what well educated folks CAN see on the radar screen are things like speed and route etc.

And what they seen was what they thought was an aircraft that was heading for them and desending(I know that later it was proved that it wasn't, but that was hindsight), they gave warnings, as best they could, and then defended themselves.

I really don't want to get into the whole Vincennes thing again. It has been discussed here and in miltary/space and isn't worth starting over, but thats what the Iranians are doing with the Boghammar harssment/attackes.

Dan in Jupiter
 
N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:01 pm



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 35):
and then defended themselves.

They didn't defend themselves against anything. To defend means necessarily to be guarding against an attack from something. They ATTACKED the Airbus.

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 35):
they gave warnings, as best they could,

 redflag  they did. Commercial aircraft don't monitor emergency channels unless they are in or near an emergency.

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 35):

I really don't want to get into the whole Vincennes thing again

Why? Can't admit that Will Rogers acted recklessly, causing the death of 290 innocent people?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
GDB
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Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:04 pm

Although slotting those bunch of sea-borne fanatics might be satisfying, consider that the nut job in Iran right now, is in a LOT of domestic political trouble. It's a case of 'Arm-in-a-heap-of shit'.
Basically, many have seen through him, now know he's an ignorant fool, the younger generation (a huge sector in Iran), never a fan of his but now more resentful of his censorship, petty restrictions on lifestyle, violence towards who he fears (like anyone not a fanatic).

One thing will totally recover his fortunes, he knows it too, is a confrontation with the US.
The Rev Guards are always saying they are prepared to die anyway, he won't give a shit if some get themselves shot up and drowned if it saves his rule.

So kudos to the professional restraint by the USN here, but the Rev Guards I fear will continue to provoke, ultimately a commander has to defend his assets, testing times ahead I fear.
 
sprout5199
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:40 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):
They didn't defend themselves against anything. To defend means necessarily to be guarding against an attack from something. They ATTACKED the Airbus.

They defended themselves against a threat they thought was real. Like a cop shooting a kid in a dark alley that is holding a toy gun. At the time the threat was there, however hindsight shows that there was no threat.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):
Why? Can't admit that Will Rogers acted recklessly, causing the death of 290 innocent people?

He did what he thought was prudent and reasonable. Not like what the Iranians were doing at the time--laying mines in known shipping lanes, attacking unarmed tankers, harassing warships of many nations with Boghammars. It is reasonable to assumed that if your ship is under attack from Boghammars and small boats, and an unidentified aircraft takes off from a military base and approaches your ship that it is hostile. Was there mistakes made, YES, was it a reckless act on part of the CO, NO, given the info that he was given at the time.

If you want to go toe to toe about this, ok, bring it on. Next you will be saying that the embassy take over was just a few college kids having fun.

Dan in Jupiter
 
Tom in NO
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:47 pm



Quoting Airlinelover (Thread starter):
Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Why does the comment "Go ahead...make my day" keep running through my head?  wink 

Tom at MSY
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
sprout5199
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Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:26 am

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:59 pm



Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 39):
Why does the comment "Go ahead...make my day" keep running through my head?

And why the saying "damned if you do and damned if you don't" also pops up?

Dan in Jupiter
 
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OA260
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:06 am

I didnt know much about this until I just saw it on the BBC and Euronews . I have to say if the US had have fired on them they would have been in the right !!! The Iranians know full well what they are doing and they just try to push the limits all the time.

I agree with Fridgmus. The troops/Navy have enough crap to deal with without this stuff !!!
 
sprout5199
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:30 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 41):
The Iranians know full well what they are doing and they just try to push the limits all the time.

This is true.And if we would have fired on them, the Iranians would have said that they were "unarmed" fishing boats. But at least in this day of everyone having a video camera, the truth would come out.


Dan in Jupiter
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:52 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 37):
One thing will totally recover his fortunes, he [Iran's president] knows it too, is a confrontation with the US.

Yes, but not if it's too obvious that the "Revolutionary Guards" (which most Iranians can't stand anyway) have provoked the clash. Iranians have satellite TV (although it's prohibited - they don't care) and know very well, that their President is a loudmouth trying to shift attention from homemade problems.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
Any action the US Navy would have taken - besides the course they chose - in this instance would have not been favorably received by the rest of the world.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. While I second what GDB wrote ("So kudos to the professional restraint by the USN here,"), press here reports very favourably of the Navy and basically says that those who drove the gunboats can be glad to be still alive.

[Edited 2008-01-07 16:53:10]
I support the right to arm bears
 
N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:53 am



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 38):

He did what he thought was prudent and reasonable.

Checking with ATC would have been prudent and reasonable.

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 38):
Not like what the Iranians were doing at the time--laying mines in known shipping lanes, attacking unarmed tankers

In case you forget, Iran was at war at the time. A war perpetrated by a US ally, Iraq, and perpetuated by US military aid to Iraq's illegal invasion. Naval warfare was part of this.

Perhaps you forget this picture?



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 38):
YES, was it a reckless act on part of the CO, NO, given the info that he was given at the time.

It was absolutely reckless. He didn't go on any info at all, because if he did he would have never shot down that aircraft. There are countless flights EVERY DAY that cross the Persian Gulf, including those between Bandar Abbas and Dubai which fly in the same official airway that Mohsen Rezaian flew his aircraft on that day. The same was true in 1988. Iran's F-14s weren't based at BND during the war and aren't equipped to attack ground and sea targets anyway.

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 38):

If you want to go toe to toe about this, ok, bring it on.

Defending what was done that day is at least as reprehensible as the act itself.

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 38):

They defended themselves against a threat they thought was real.

Against a threat they pretended was real with information they had absolutely no confirmation of and made no actual attempt to confirm.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
dl021
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:55 am



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 43):
their President is a loudmouth trying to shift attention from homemade problems.

I'll say that there is a great possibility, likelihood even, that the Iranian leadership is using both the anti-US sentiment and the nuclear issue as the only issues they get traction with the public on to avoid their domestic issues and keep the people from focussing on replaceing their leadership.

That and their religious police.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:06 am



Quoting DL021 (Reply 45):

That and their religious police.

The Basij, Pashtarn, and other groups of paramilitary religious militias are essentially ignored by Iranian people in every day life as it is, to the point that they are often beaten up if they try and enforce some new law they made up. If there were mass demonstrations, they would be powerless.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:01 am



Quoting DL021 (Reply 45):
I'll say that there is a great possibility, likelihood even, that the Iranian leadership is using both the anti-US sentiment and the nuclear issue as the only issues they get traction with the public on to avoid their domestic issues and keep the people from focussing on replaceing their leadership.

There's no sense couching these sentiments in suppositional and theoretical language. This is exactly what's going on and the Bush team's Iran policy has been an exercise in arrogant absurdity by playing into their hands.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:15 am



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
Just taunting the US Navy . . .

Not smart of course . . . but nothing more.

In the words of Pete "Maverick" Mitchell: "They're just trying to piss us off".

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 5):
Quoting N74JW (Reply 3):
Who gives a rat's ass what the rest of the world thinks?

A) other countries than the USA

Other countries don't have their men and women on board that U.S. Naval vessell, do they ME AVN FAN? Those are AMERICANS, and I know you care little for them. But if those vessels had stayed in the area another few seconds, the commander of the ship, to protect those UNDER HIS COMMAND would have fired. I know you don't understand the concept of "either them or us", when it comes to combat, but that's what it would have come down to.

One of those ships got, according to reports, to within 200 yards of on of the U.S. ships. Now, what if that ship had a few hundred or thousand pounds of explosives on board? If you're the commander, you're not going to wait and see, are you, and you don't give a flying fuck what someone named ME AVN FAN on some internet site is going to think about you afterwards. If you think you need to blow them out of the water, you blow them out of the water. Case closed.

In this case, the Iranians on the gunboat didn't have the stomach to meet 72 virgins right now, so they broke off. Smart move on their part.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 8):
Sounds to me like the US Navy's response was the right one in this case -- get ready to shoot, but don't do it.

Agreed. I have a feeling that the ships' commanders were able to make quite clear to those clowns what they were going to face if they kept up that nonsense.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:49 am



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 35):
And what they seen was what they thought was an aircraft that was heading for them and desending(I know that later it was proved that it wasn't, but that was hindsight), they gave warnings, as best they could,

The first part can be excused as carelessness, and the "warnings" were given in a way NOT to be received by the pilots of a civil airliner.

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 35):
to get into the whole Vincennes thing again

alright, as the Navy-men this time reacted splendidly

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 38):
Like a cop shooting a kid in a dark alley

Except that it was A) not a dark alley and B) a blind cop (apparently out of a home for elderly people)
-
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:07 am



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 38):
was it a reckless act on part of the CO

possibly not "reckless" but rather careless sloppy work
-

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 42):
This is true.And if we would have fired on them, the Iranians would have said that they were "unarmed" fishing boats. But at least in this day of everyone having a video camera, the truth would come out.

-
What the Iranians might have said is relatively irrelevant. What however is of paramount importance is that the Iranians recklessly risked to block the Straits of Hormuz. And to keep these straits open at any price must be the absolute priority.
-
The other aspect still is the question who in Iran exactly gave orders to those speedboats.
-

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 48):
Other countries don't have their men and women on board that U.S. Naval vessell, do they ME AVN FAN?

Other countries to a considerable extent depend on oil coming through the Straits of Hormuz. You can be assured that motorcar-drivers in Europe are NOT interested in the wellbeing of men and women on board of US Naval vessels, but simply want their petrol.
-

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 48):
I know you don't understand the concept of "either them or us", when it comes to combat, but that's what it would have come down to.

I know that "concept" at least as well as you do, and what you say here is self-evident. THIS is why I above twice asked who in Iran is putting up such enormous risks. And I said above that "playing with the fire" is risking the wellbeing of other people. The fault in the matter described on top of this thread clearly was with the Iranian side.
-
But AGAIN, do you really believe that people in Europe or China or Japan or Australia are interested about strategic details in the worst-case-scenario ? What they care for would be trebling prices of petrol .
-
And now this leads to the "terminal" question. What is the rest of the World to do if the Iranians try to block the Straits of Hormuz ? So sorry, I do NOT have a straight-solution ready for something like this
-

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 48):
Sounds to me like the US Navy's response was the right one in this case -- get ready to shoot, but don't do it.

Agreed. I have a feeling that the ships' commanders were able to make quite clear to those clowns what they were going to face if they kept up that nonsense.

And this is praiseworthy and admirable.

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