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miamiair
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:30 am

Can we get back on topic?

Thic is not about the Vincennes/Iran Air. If you feel so strongly about it, start a thread about it.
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:03 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 51):
back on topic?

-
we ARE back on topic since post nr 47, so that you are bit late
-
the topic in fact is a triple topic
A) a superb handling of a naval crisis by the US Navy men involved
B) the open question who on the Iranian side actually gave the command for such crazy actions
C) the importance of the Straits of Hormuz
 
Falcon84
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:11 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 50):
Other countries to a considerable extent depend on oil coming through the Straits of Hormuz. You can be assured that motorcar-drivers in Europe are NOT interested in the wellbeing of men and women on board of US Naval vessels, but simply want their petrol.

Ah, so now it's a matter of your oil is paramount to the safety and well being of other human beings. I get it.

The fact remains that those other nations, who might bitch and moan, aren't possibly putting people in harms way by patrolling-in international waters, I might add-and could be threatened by some jackasses in little speedboats, carrying who-knows-what onboard.

That C.O., when push comes to shove, doesn't give a damn about those driving motor cars in Europe at that moment, so I guess we're even.  Yeah sure
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miamiair
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:13 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 52):
we ARE back on topic since post nr 47, so that you are bit late



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 49):
The first part can be excused as carelessness, and the "warnings" were given in a way NOT to be received by the pilots of a civil airliner.

Care to revise your numbers?
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:02 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 53):
other human beings.

just as the safety of your seamen to you is above the wellbeing of other human beings !
-

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 53):
those other nations, who might bitch and moan, aren't possibly putting people in harms way by patrolling-in international waters

Many of those other nations DO patrol in international waters, but few asked the USA to patrol in the Straits of Hormuz.
-

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 53):
That C.O., when push comes to shove, doesn't give a damn about those driving motor cars in Europe at that moment, so I guess we're even.

Sure we are even, as the motor car drivers in Europe do NOT care in any way for people of the US Navy
-
But US exporters DO care about the world economy as their exports would drop quite considerably in case of a weaker world economy, and I think that the US exporters are of some relevance to people INSIDE the USA
-

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 54):

Care to revise your numbers?

NO, I do NOT, not at all, as more than 80% of post nr 49 was about the matter NOW
-
 
rfields5421
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:02 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 26):
Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 20):
You do - if you don't want the rest of the world to run out and raise the price of oil to $150 per barrel - and your gasoline costs to $4.00 per gallon.

Doesn't work that way pal, if the US actually stopped with this SUV crap and conserved a bit gasoline would be 2 bucks a gallon. They don't set the price, our usage does.

Actually it does work that way.

When speculators fear, or hope, the supply of oil might be curtailed, they panic buy and push up the price substantially.

Our purchase price of oil in the US is set more by the demand level in China and Europe than by US demand. Ours remains fairly consistent, not growing near as much as China and some other countries.

Even oil pumped out of the ground in the US can be shipped overseas if the seller gets a high enough price on the spot market.

Now it is true that most oil is not sold on the spot market - and contracted in advance at volume rates. But any possible restriction in supply raises those prices also.

Yes, we could substantially reduce the price of gasoline in the US if we ever got serious about lowering usage.

But remember - the price you pay for a gallon of gasoline or a barrel of oil is not how much it cost to get that product - but how much the traders and company estimate it will take to replace that gallon / barrel in their next purchase.

I only used to buy gasoline only in 10-20,000 gallon lots - but our retail price was always set by what the next tanker loads would cost. Not the ones we just paid for.

If I bought 10,000 gallons @ $1.50 and sold it for $1.70 - and my next 10,000 gallons cost me $1.75 per gallon - I've lost money on the previous load because I cannot replace my stock of fuel.
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Arrow
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:44 pm



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 56):
Our purchase price of oil in the US is set more by the demand level in China and Europe than by US demand. Ours remains fairly consistent, not growing near as much as China and some other countries.

That's true, but a little disingenuous. Per capita energy consumption in China is still a tiny fraction of per capita consumption in North America. Overall demand in China is growing at a much faster rate because a billion people are clawing their way out of abject poverty. If Chinese per capita energy consumption matched the west, the world would have an energy crisis of nightmare proportions. Kinda makes you realize what has to happen in the west, in a hurry, doesn't it?
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
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OA260
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:03 pm

The Pentagon just released the video , have to say the Iranian side were asking to be blown out of the water !!!
 
Falcon84
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:03 pm



Quoting Arrow (Reply 56):
Per capita energy consumption in China is still a tiny fraction of per capita consumption in North America. Overall demand in China is growing at a much faster rate because a billion people are clawing their way out of abject poverty.

Good point. And, as emerging economic powers like China and India continue to clamor for more oil, which is not a renewable source, what happens to the supplies that once flooded the U.S. at seemingly endless flows, with low prices? Exactly what we're seeing now: prices going up about 70 cents a year. Besides the enviornmental and strategic reasons for kicking the oil habit, another, more and more, will be the economic reason-nations' with far more people within their borders will want the oil we want, and to get what we want, we'll have to pay through the nose for it. $5 a gallon is here, I think, before 2010.
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Falcon84
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:06 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 54):
just as the safety of your seamen to you is above the wellbeing of other human beings !

In this case, yes. The safety of the American servicemen were more important to me than the safety of those Iranians threatening them, and more important than your need for petrol.

You have a PROBLEM with that?
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:23 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 35):
They didn't defend themselves against anything. To defend means necessarily to be guarding against an attack from something. They ATTACKED the Airbus.

Best defense is a good offense . . .

Good job USN.

I'm really, really, really tired of the crying over that Airbus. Sad those folks died - infinitely sad . . . however . . . I'd have done the same thing had I been in command.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 57):
The Pentagon just released the video , have to say the Iranian side were asking to be blown out of the water !!!

Those jackasses oughta be glad they are still alive . . .

Oh, wait . . . now we'll get the apologists again . . .  sarcastic 

Getting old real fast.
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LHMark
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:31 pm

Now I'm wondering... what kind of weapon would an Aegis cruiser use to engage a small gunboat as close as 200 yards away?
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:35 pm



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 60):

Best defense is a good offense . . .

Not when killing innocent people is involved.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 60):
I'd have done the same thing had I been in command.

 redflag  and you know it. That airport has planes coming and going all the time and if Will Rogers was worth the cost of the brass on his shoulder he would have known all the different factors that told him there was absolutely no threat to his ship.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 60):

I'm really, really, really tired of the crying over that Airbus.

I could care less about the airplane. It is the people on it I care about.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 60):

Good job USN.

I am appalled that you of all people would say such a thing.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:36 pm



Quoting LHMARK (Reply 61):
Now I'm wondering... what kind of weapon would an Aegis cruiser use to engage a small gunboat as close as 200 yards away?

.50 Cal would be my call, but I'm no Navy puke . . .

At 200 yards a .50 cal would smolder that thing . . . .


No need for anything bigger - would be, umm, overkill.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Falcon84
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:55 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 62):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 60):

Best defense is a good offense . . .

Not when killing innocent people is involved.

How the hell were the Iranians in those gunboats "innocent" N1120A? Explain THAT ONE to me, because I can't fathom that.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 62):
That airport has planes coming and going all the time and if Will Rogers was worth the cost of the brass on his shoulder he would have known all the different factors that told him there was absolutely no threat to his ship.

And this gem from somoene in France who never met an American foreign policy he didn't hate. Take that comment of yours with a huge mountain of salt, dude.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 62):
I am appalled that you of all people would say such a thing.

See-you think he's talking about the Airbus incident, dude. He's talking about this LATEST incident. And what the hell os so appalling about that? Oh, my bad, Americans were involved, so you automatically take the opposite side, I forgot.
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Falcon84
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:57 pm

Left to N1120A and MAF, the headline on this thread would have read: "Iranian Gunboats Stop U.S. Attack". I'm fairly convinced of that.
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NIKV69
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:03 pm



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 55):
Our purchase price of oil in the US is set more by the demand level in China and Europe than by US demand. Ours remains fairly consistent, not growing near as much as China and some other countries.

Your saying US demand doesn't mean anything? I think your nuts. If we were able to cut out our wasteful use of oil with these Hummers and SUVs and car pool and conserve you would see a big difference.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 60):
Best defense is a good offense .

What about Buddy Ball!

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 60):
Those jackasses oughta be glad they are still alive . . .

Yes they are, Their actions are indicitive of how Iran is just going to keep this up. They are a threat and they are trying to gain strength. Suffice to say I feel we will be in some sort of conflict with them sooner rather than later.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 62):
Not when killing innocent people is involved

Tell that to the terrorists, we are the ones who use the killing of innocent as a tool.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
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OA260
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:41 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 62):
I could care less about the airplane. It is the people on it I care about.

And so do I , it was a terrible thing to happen and the USA deeply regretted that. It brought shame on them BUT and a big BUT , anyone that thought they did it deliberately must be on some kind of drug !!! I have heard people say it was shot down when they knew it was an Airbus , I mean really .....that belongs with the Diana conspiracies.
 
N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:00 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 64):

How the hell were the Iranians in those gunboats "innocent" N1120A?

If they were outside Iranian territorial waters, they weren't, and I never said they were.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 64):

And this gem from somoene in France who never met an American foreign policy he didn't hate.

Now come on Falcon, you know better than that.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 64):

See-you think he's talking about the Airbus incident, dude. He's talking about this LATEST incident.

He WAS talking about IR655, did you not read his post?

Quoting OA260 (Reply 67):
I have heard people say it was shot down when they knew it was an Airbus

They had no reason to believe it was a threat to them at all.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Falcon84
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:25 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 67):
It brought shame on them BUT and a big BUT , anyone that thought they did it deliberately must be on some kind of drug !!!

Some 'ludes for MAF and N1120A for $500. Alex.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 68):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 64):

And this gem from somoene in France who never met an American foreign policy he didn't hate.

Now come on Falcon, you know better than that.

I know of no such thing. I've never seen you on the side of the U.S. for anything on here, to be honest.
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N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:28 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 69):

I know of no such thing. I've never seen you on the side of the U.S. for anything on here, to be honest.

Then you haven't read all my posts. Neither have you apparently figured out where I live
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OA260
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:30 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 68):
They had no reason to believe it was a threat to them at all.

They obviously did otherwise they wouldn't have fired !! I know Americas no saint and I have many difficulties understanding their actions sometimes but one thing I dont subscribe to is that they would deliberately shoot down an Airliner with innocent civilians on board. I really think that is dis respectful to the American people .
 
N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:37 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 71):

They obviously did otherwise they wouldn't have fired !!

 redflag 

They fired because their captain was a moron who didn't make any sort of meaningful attempt to figure out what was going on.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 71):
I really think that is dis respectful to the American people .

The American people didn't have anything to do with IR655.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 71):
I dont subscribe to is that they would deliberately shoot down an Airliner with innocent civilians on board.

I don't think the shoot down was deliberate in the sense of the word you are using, rather it was completely reckless given the circumstances and information at hand. Further, I don't think the US government did anything wrong until they tried to cover up the incident and commend those that were involved.
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luv2fly
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:53 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 70):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 69):

I know of no such thing. I've never seen you on the side of the U.S. for anything on here, to be honest.

Then you haven't read all my posts. Neither have you apparently figured out where I live

Well I do know where you live (CA) and have to agree with Falcon, personally I have no idea why you even stay here in the USA. From all you anti American posts and your constant bashing of all things USA, why stay.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:07 am



Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 73):
From all you anti American posts and your constant bashing of all things USA, why stay.

I don't bash all things USA, I point out problems.

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 73):
personally I have no idea why you even stay here in the USA.

Because it is my home
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dl021
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:57 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 74):
Because it is my home

Then why fly the French flag?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 68):
They had no reason to believe it was a threat to them at all.

That's not true. They were in a running firefight and there was an aircraft that was not responding to hails and did not carry the IFF (or turn it on) overflying the area. Iran had, and still has, plenty of aircraft that can do major damage or sink a cruiser that size. The captains duty was to his vessel and crew and he acted on the information at hand. Iranian government is more at fault because they didn't think to close the airspace over a known battle, and it makes me wonder if they wanted the tragedy to occur for the same reasons they pick fights now.
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looneytoon
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:05 am

this type of thing happens regularly in that area to cargo ships, US Flagged or not, navy ships and the like.

Its just the Iranians showing the world that they have some control in that region.
LooneyToon
 
N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:20 am



Quoting DL021 (Reply 75):

Then why fly the French flag?

Why all the Danish and Swedish flags at various points?

Quoting DL021 (Reply 75):
They were in a running firefight and there was an aircraft that was not responding to hails and did not carry the IFF (or turn it on) overflying the area.

They weren't hailing it on ATC frequencies, only distress frequencies that IR655 had no reason to monitor. Further, IR655 had their transponder on and was squaking its assigned code. Oh, the fact that it was only traveling 300 knots might have been a clue.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 75):
Iran had, and still has, plenty of aircraft that can do major damage or sink a cruiser that size.

They claim to have thought an IRIAF F-14A was in the air above them. If they had a shred of intelligence, they would know the perceived and unconfirmed threat would not be able to attack their ship, not to mention that they probably should have known that the F-14's were kept at Mehrabad to defend against an Iraqi attack on Tehran.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 75):
Iranian government is more at fault because they didn't think to close the airspace over a known battle, and it makes me wonder if they wanted the tragedy to occur for the same reasons they pick fights now.

Oh come on now. That is as bad as the people who claim 9/11 was caused by the US government blowing up the buildings.
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lobster
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:40 am



Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 73):
Well I do know where you live (CA) and have to agree with Falcon, personally I have no idea why you even stay here in the USA. From all you anti American posts and your constant bashing of all things USA, why stay.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 74):
I don't bash all things USA, I point out problems.

You go beyond "pointing out the problems". Most of your post are nothing but American bashing rhetoric.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 74):
Because it is my home

 redflag Then change your flag.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 75):
The captains duty was to his vessel and crew and he acted on the information at hand. Iranian government is more at fault because they didn't think to close the airspace over a known battle, and it makes me wonder if they wanted the tragedy to occur for the same reasons they pick fights now.

I'm going to blame the Captain of the damn airplane. Why not avoid this airspace all together? He's ultimately responsible for his aircraft and common sense should of dictated to avoid airspace over any sort of "touchy" conflict.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:51 am



Quoting DL021 (Reply 75):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 74):
Because it is my home

Then why fly the French flag?

Beat me to that one, Ian. He's never flown the American flag, allegedly his "home".

Quoting Lobster (Reply 78):
Why not avoid this airspace all together?

He followed the route given to him by ATC. I think they should have had an idea there were tensions in that area, but apparently were not. On that point, the captain has to trust the controllers, and just can't fly wherever he wants.
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N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:25 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 79):
He's never flown the American flag, allegedly his "home".

Yes I have, and yes it is.

Quoting Lobster (Reply 78):
Why not avoid this airspace all together?

It was an internationally recognized airway 20 miles wide on a direct line from BND to DXB.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 79):
I think they should have had an idea there were tensions in that area, but apparently were not.

Of course there were tensions. A war had been going on for 8 years at the point. That doesn't mean international commerce, and travel weren't still going on. It wouldn't make sense to send an aircraft any other way between Bandar Abbas and Dubai.
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Falcon84
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:44 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 80):
A war had been going on for 8 years at the point.

 rotfl 

Yes, there was a war going on, and U.S. ships were in/near a combat zone, but you have the balls to say "they had to know it was a civilian airliner", when it came from a base that serves both civilian and military aircraft. Uh, OK.

I guarantee you, if it had been the Iranians shooting down and American airliner, or a El Al one, or something along that line, you'd be the first one on here, apologizing for the Iranians. I'm convinced of that.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 80):
It wouldn't make sense to send an aircraft any other way between Bandar Abbas and Dubai.

Even knowing it's a war zone? Uh, OK.
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N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:12 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 81):
"they had to know it was a civilian airliner", when it came from a base that serves both civilian and military aircraft.

It was in a recognized civilian airway, was a timetabled flight, was squaking the proper frequency and had reported to both Bandar Abbas Tower and Bandar Abbas Departure. Further, the aircraft they claimed they thought it wouldn't have been based at BND and wouldn't be involved in a sea attack anyway because it is incapable of sea attack. This is ridiculously obvious.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 81):

I guarantee you, if it had been the Iranians shooting down and American airliner, or a El Al one, or something along that line, you'd be the first one on here, apologizing for the Iranians.

No. I would, as I have over and over again with IR655, look at the facts of the situation.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 81):

Even knowing it's a war zone?

The US Navy is not the Iraqi Navy, a Navy that has never had an ability to shoot down an airliner, and that is the Navy Iran was at war with. BTW, the Vincennes was in Iranian waters when it attacked IR655
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:27 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 81):
I guarantee you, if it had been the Iranians shooting down and American airliner, or a El Al one, or something along that line, you'd be the first one on here, apologizing for the Iranians. I'm convinced of that.

 checkmark 

Quoting DL021 (Reply 75):
Then why fly the French flag?

Because Al-Qaida still doesn't have one? Not yet.
 
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cedars747
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:28 am



Quoting Airlinelover (Thread starter):
Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Well I guess Iranians are learning from Americans  Wink

Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion /لدي شغف للطيران / I have a passion for aviation /Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart/ J'ai une passion pour l'aviation.
 
miamiair
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:44 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 72):
They fired because their captain was a moron who didn't make any sort of meaningful attempt to figure out what was going on.

You might want to reflect on this satement. You are glued to your soapbox, you cry foul at the Iran Air incident yet you cannot condemn the Iranian government when it executes people for being gay.

Your support for a country that fosters and promotes terrorism is appalling.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 77):
Oh, the fact that it was only traveling 300 knots might have been a clue.

Back in the Viet Nam conflict, Operation Bolo hoodwinked the N. Vietnamese AF. A bunch of F-4's used F-105 Figghter Bomber call signs, speeds and formations; which bushwacked the NVAF. That is called deception, it is a military tactic; I will repeat, READ MILITARY TACTIC. After the Stark incident, all bets were off.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 80):
It was an internationally recognized airway 20 miles wide on a direct line from BND to DXB.

BTW, what were the NOTAMS for that region on that particular day?
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:18 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 59):
just as the safety of your seamen to you is above the wellbeing of other human beings !

In this case, yes. The safety of the American servicemen were more important to me than the safety of those Iranians threatening them, and more important than your need for petrol.

You have a PROBLEM with that?

To me, the world economy is more important than some US seamen
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Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 65):
I'm fairly convinced of that.

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You are wrong, as my headline would have been "US Navy mastered a crisis with Iranian speedboats in a superb way ; who in Iran was giving the commands ? and what was the intention ? "
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Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 69):
It brought shame on them BUT and a big BUT , anyone that thought they did it deliberately must be on some kind of drug !!!

Some 'ludes for MAF and N1120A

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I N E V E R said that it was done deliberately. So please stop telling stories. Thanks
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halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:08 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 22):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 19):

Again, you have to remember that it isn't all that easy to distinguish a fighter jet from a civilian airliner on radar.

So, of course, you shoot first and who cares if 290 innocent people die.

It was indeed a tragedy that those innocent people died. But when a year earlier the Stark took a missile hit because they weren't aggressive enough in a combat zone, few who have held command at sea would say that what the Vincennes did was "barbaric."

Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):
Quoting Miamiair (Reply 21):
Even though the A300 may have been squaking a Xponder code, what is to keep an IIAF F-14 from doing the same?

Then I guess we should just shoot down every Iranian airliner flying between Bandar Abbas and Dubai (2 of them flying today) "just to be safe"

If the situation today was the same as back in 1988, maybe we would.

I'll bet, however, that any commerical aircraft today is monitoring the proper frequencies while operating in that theater. If they aren't, shame on them.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):
The "warnings" were broadcast on military and civil emergency frequencies, neither of which IR655 would have been monitoring, or had any reason to monitor, at the time of the attack.

Yeah, you are in a combat zone, and you don't monitor appropriate frequencies. Real bright.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 62):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 60):
I'd have done the same thing had I been in command.

and you know it. That airport has planes coming and going all the time and if Will Rogers was worth the cost of the brass on his shoulder he would have known all the different factors that told him there was absolutely no threat to his ship.

I love it how people who weren't on the Vincennes in 1988, and have never been in the position that CAPT Rogers was in, can so easily pass judgment on his actions.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
sprout5199
Posts: 1681
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:26 am

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:31 pm



Quoting LHMARK (Reply 61):
Now I'm wondering... what kind of weapon would an Aegis cruiser use to engage a small gunboat as close as 200 yards away?



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 63):
.50 Cal would be my call, but I'm no Navy puke . . .

At 200 yards a .50 cal would smolder that thing . . . .

.50cal and 25mm chain gun:



They should have destroyed the boats. I know when I was there (June 1987 to Dec 1987 on board the USS Flatley(FFG-21)) we would have sank them. They got too close, and were sending threatening radio calls. We fired across the bow of many fishing dhows. We also came within 30 seconds of launching a SM-1 at the Iranian frigate Sahand when she aimed her gun mount at us and started to train her missile launcher at us. BTW the Sahand is on the bottom of the gulf thanks to some shit-hot A-6 pilots.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 83):
It was in a recognized civilian airway, was a timetabled flight, was squaking the proper frequency and had reported to both Bandar Abbas Tower and Bandar Abbas Departure. Further, the aircraft they claimed they thought it wouldn't have been based at BND and wouldn't be involved in a sea attack anyway because it is incapable of sea attack. This is ridiculously obvious.

And it was a war zone--remember Operation Praying Mantis a few weeks before?. The aircraft took off from a civil/military base, and like it or not, the US Navy does remember lessons learned from WW2-- Kamikaze attacks. The Iranians had just lost a sea battle and wanted revenge, so who knows what they would do. The CO of the Vincennes did the correct thing at time with the info he had.



Dan in Jupiter
 
sprout5199
Posts: 1681
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:26 am

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:33 pm

Don't know why the pic in my post above didn't show up.

Dan in Jupiter
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:42 pm



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 90):
BTW the Sahand is on the bottom of the gulf thanks to some shit-hot A-6 pilots.

So we can thank the Iranian Navy for the target practice.

Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
sprout5199
Posts: 1681
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:26 am

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:00 pm



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 89):
It was indeed a tragedy that those innocent people died. But when a year earlier the Stark took a missile hit because they weren't aggressive enough in a combat zone, few who have held command at sea would say that what the Vincennes did was "barbaric."



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 89):
I love it how people who weren't on the Vincennes in 1988, and have never been in the position that CAPT Rogers was in, can so easily pass judgment on his actions.

Well Said.

In the end, CAPT Rodgers came home with his ship and his crew intact. As ships company, thats all you can ask.

Don't know who said it---fight fair?fight fair to me means all my guys come home safe, F*CK everyone else.

Dan in Jupiter
 
ORFflyer
Posts: 3142
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:42 am

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:04 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 92):

Have a Coke and a smile!  Wink

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 93):
In the end, CAPT Rodgers came home with his ship and his crew intact. As ships company, thats all you can ask.

 checkmark 

And was Capt. Rodgers disciplined in any fashion for the situation we are discussing? To my knowledge - no. Doesn't lend much support to those folks claiming it was moronic and criminal does it?
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 14970
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:07 pm



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 89):
Yeah, you are in a combat zone, and you don't monitor appropriate frequencies. Real bright.

Spot on. This is the basic element of the IR655 story that goes virtually ignored in all of the circular claptrap that still embodies discussion of the event to this day.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:22 pm



Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 88):
hecking with ATC would have been prudent and reasonable.

You don't call the cops to ask if you can defend yourself when someone is breaking into your home

Rubbish. Nobody was "breaking into .... home". The A300 simply flew the scheduled route.
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Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 90):
They should have destroyed the boats

They should NOT have done so, unless unavoidable. They quite obviously were aware of the context and the geographic location. While I do NOT really believe that one sunken Speedboat would block the Straits, the political and military crisis would have been there.

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 90):
We fired across the bow of many fishing dhows. We also came within 30 seconds of launching a SM-1 at the Iranian frigate Sahand when she aimed her gun mount at us and started to train her missile launcher at us. BTW the Sahand is on the bottom of the gulf thanks to some shit-hot A-6 pilots.

Some questions :
> WHERE exactly where you ?
> WHERE did the incidents you describe take place ?
> WHEN was the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq ?
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And I rather praise the US Navy men now in charge. YOU possibly can ask some of those who were there NOW about it. And I hope that you in such a situation abstain from criticizing people who acted with nerves and brilliance.
 
tootallsd
Posts: 545
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:02 pm

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:40 pm



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 20):
You do - if you don't want the rest of the world to run out and raise the price of oil to $150 per barrel - and your gasoline costs to $4.00 per gallon.

There are far worse things to fear that $4 / gallon gasoline.
 
ORFflyer
Posts: 3142
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:42 am

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:43 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 96):
The A300 simply flew the scheduled route.
-

Yes - a scheduled route in a hostile area, without monitoring frequencies he should have been monitoring. The Captain did what he thought was right given the circumstances at the time.
 
sprout5199
Posts: 1681
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:26 am

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:49 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 96):
Some questions :
> WHERE exactly where you ?
> WHERE did the incidents you describe take place ?
> WHEN was the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq ?

Well " I " was at my general quarters station in the radio room, listening to the call to the Iranian ship on the bridge to bridge.

My ship was in the Strait of Hormuz, in international waters.

This happened in 1987, the invasion of Kuwait was in 1990.

And the fishing dhow suff happened all over the gulf. Just remember my ship replaced the Stark, so NOBODY got close to us. At 1/2 mile is when we would fire the .50 cal into the water "across the bow" to get them to turn away.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 96):
They should NOT have done so, unless unavoidable. They quite obviously were aware of the context and the geographic location. While I do NOT really believe that one sunken Speedboat would block the Straits, the political and military crisis would have been there.

Well we disagree on this. looking at the video they were too close for my comfort, thats all I'm saying. But I wasn't there so I don't know how close/ how big the threat was.

Dan in Jupiter
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:51 pm



Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 98):
a scheduled route in a hostile area, without monitoring frequencies he should have been monitoring. The Captain did what he thought was right given the circumstances at the time.

-
According to Iran and the Arab countries from Kuwait over Bahrain, Qatar and UAE to Oman, it was NOT a "hostile area" and the captain was not required to monitor frequencies you think he should have been monitoring. The Captain of the Airbus did everything according to rules and regulations.
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:00 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 100):
The Captain of the Airbus did everything according to rules and regulations.

So did the Captain of the Vincennes.

The Airbus pilot may have followed the rules and regulations, but his common sense was lacking.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH

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