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ORFflyer
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:14 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 100):
According to Iran and the Arab countries from Kuwait over Bahrain, Qatar and UAE to Oman, it was NOT a "hostile area" and the captain was not required to monitor frequencies you think he should have been monitoring. The Captain of the Airbus did everything according to rules and regulations.

And according to US accounts, this is not the case.

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 101):
but his common sense was lacking.

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HAWK21M
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:44 pm

Is this the Excuse for the Invasion  wink 

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Dougloid
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:13 pm



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 90):
They should have destroyed the boats. I know when I was there (June 1987 to Dec 1987 on board the USS Flatley(FFG-21)) we would have sank them. They got too close, and were sending threatening radio calls. We fired across the bow of many fishing dhows. We also came within 30 seconds of launching a SM-1 at the Iranian frigate Sahand when she aimed her gun mount at us and started to train her missile launcher at us. BTW the Sahand is on the bottom of the gulf thanks to some shit-hot A-6 pilots.

Points out the wisdom of the old saying that if you can't run with the big dogs it's best to stay on the porch.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:35 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 101):
The Airbus pilot may have followed the rules and regulations, but his common sense was lacking.

No, there was no lack of common sense. He simply did what is normal on that route.
-

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 101):
did everything according to rules and regulations.
---
So did the Captain of the Vincennes.

-
No, he shot down a civil airliner in a careless and sloppy way. Whether his followed rules and regulations ... maybe, but acted in a trigger-happy and careless, sloppy way
-

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 102):
according to US accounts, this is not the case.

A) these accounts are wrong B) the countries around the place are NOT part of the USA
-

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 103):
s this the Excuse for the Invasion wink
--
regds
MEL

-
Had US boats threatened Iranians vessels as a start, such an idea might have been considered. True, we only have the US-American version of things, but the silence from Tehran is not exactly demonstrating innocence. This again opens up the question what the Iranian speedboats actually intended. At worst they wanted to provoke the US Navy into military action, and maybe even WANTED a closure of the Straits of Hormuz. Two or three sunken Iranian speedboats would block the shipping lane for at least a week. Or did they even hope to provoke the USA into an attack against them which they think they could avert ? But it is not even clear on which level and by which section the command for the whole stunt was given.
 
miamiair
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:49 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 105):
No, he shot down a civil airliner in a careless and sloppy way

It wasn't careless or sloppy. It was a rational decision, and it was executed with precision. Now what if the A300 decided to do a Kamikaze High Dive? The skipper wasn't going to let that be a possibility.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 105):
A) these accounts are wrong B) the countries around the place are NOT part of the USA

So just because it is a US account it is wrong?

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 103):
Is this the Excuse for the Invasion

If, and I say if there was going to be any military action, I'd bomb their facilities where the boats are operating from. It can be a PGM or a cruise missle. Either one. But there isn't going to be any invasion of Iran over this.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
sprout5199
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:55 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 105):
Two or three sunken Iranian speedboats would block the shipping lane for at least a week.

Not really. They were go fasts, not patrol boats or warships. wouldn't block anything.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 105):
No, he shot down a civil airliner in a careless and sloppy way. Whether his followed rules and regulations ... maybe, but acted in a trigger-happy and careless, sloppy way

He did not. He acted according to the ROE and the situation at the time. YOU may not agree with it, however that is what happened.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 105):
A) these accounts are wrong

Excuse me? were you in the gulf in 1987-1988? I was and yes it was a combat zone. The Iranians and the Iraqi's did ship attacks all the time. Nothing sadder than hearing a Capt of a tanker screaming to help him because the Iranian's were shelling his ship, and we could do nothing because it wasn't a US flagged tanker.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 105):
B) the countries around the place are NOT part of the USA

But Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Oman, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia did consider it a war zone.

Dan in Jupiter
 
N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:57 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 86):
cannot condemn the Iranian government when it executes people for being gay.

I have countless times.

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 86):

Your support for a country that fosters and promotes terrorism is appalling.

You support Israel, and US policy supporting Israel. Done.

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 88):
Better safe than sorry.

Better murder than let the plane fly by?

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 88):

You don't call the cops to ask if you can defend yourself when someone is breaking into your home, no time.

Hello. No one was breaking into anything. It was a commercial flight that they should have been well aware of.

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 88):

You are simply ignoring facts to support your love of terrorists.

I have absolutely no love for terrorists. Mohsen Rezaian, his crew and his passengers were not terroists.

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 88):

Which I believe you did at one point.

No pal, wrong guy

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 88):
If not avoid the airspace all together, why not monitor those frequencies that would have allowed him to hear, and heed the warnings.

He was monitoring the proper frequencies.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 89):

It was indeed a tragedy that those innocent people died.

No, it was reckless murder

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 89):
But when a year earlier the Stark took a missile hit because they weren't aggressive enough in a combat zone

How about you tell me just what air force actually fired those Exocets at the Stark

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 89):

I'll bet, however, that any commerical aircraft today is monitoring the proper frequencies while operating in that theater.

They were monitoring the proper frequencies

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 90):
the US Navy does remember lessons learned from WW2-- Kamikaze attacks.

But apparently didn't have or ignored intelligence on how Iran used their Tomcats in the Iran-Iraq War, the capabilities of the aircraft which were built in the US and authorized for sale by the State Department, and apparently that commercial airplanes even exist.

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 90):
The CO of the Vincennes did the correct thing at time with the info he had.

 redflag  he did. He didn't have any info. He saw an airplane and he shot at it. That was it.

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 93):

In the end, CAPT Rodgers came home with his ship and his crew intact.

Meanwhile, Captain Rezaian, his passengers, crew and aircraft ended up dead

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 95):

Spot on. This is the basic element of the IR655 story that goes virtually ignored in all of the circular claptrap that still embodies discussion of the event to this day.

Except that it is completely untrue. The aircraft was not in distress and was civilian. They were monitoring the correct frequencies.

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 98):

Yes - a scheduled route in a hostile area, without monitoring frequencies he should have been monitoring

Why in the world would an aircraft not in distress monitor a distress frequency?

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 98):
The Captain did what he thought was right given the circumstances at the time.

He was reckless in his action, no matter how much his over inflated ego said otherwise.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
miamiair
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:58 pm

ME AVN FAN, is that really you?

Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
sprout5199
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:21 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 108):
How about you tell me just what air force actually fired those Exocets at the Stark

Everyone here knows it was the Iraq's air force that hit the Stark.

But since you are bringing it up whose Mines cause the Vincennes to be in the gulf in the first place? What? they were Iranian mines that the USS Roberts hit? No couldn't be, The Irainian's are such peace loving people that they wouldn't do such a thing a lay mines in international shipping lanes. And BTW the only reason nobody died in that attack was due to the great corpsman HM1 Lambert(who at the time was my brother-in-law Smile )

Quoting N1120A (Reply 108):
Why in the world would an aircraft not in distress monitor a distress frequency?

Maybe to hear other aircraft that are in distress? It's like monitoring channel 16 on a marine radio.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 108):
He didn't have any info. He saw an airplane and he shot at it. That was it.

LAST time I will say this. He did have info, there was an aircraft that took off from a military air base and was diving towards him, and that aircraft did not turn away when warned. Was this info wrong? YES it was, HOWEVER, at the time and due to what was happening at the time the CO had to make a decision about the safety and well being of his ship and crew and fired. Hindsight is always 20/20. YOU may not like the FACTS, but that is what they are.

enough about the Vincennes in this thread. Start a new one in Military/space and we will contunue this. thanks


Dan in Jupiter
 
N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:39 pm



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 111):

Everyone here knows it was the Iraq's air force that hit the Stark.

The implication was that Iran hit the Stark.

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 111):

Maybe to hear other aircraft that are in distress?

Do you think it is normal procedure to monitor 121.5?

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 111):
Hindsight is always 20/20.

Hindsight isn't the issue. The extreme lack of foresight and knowledge of anything but how to push a firing button is.

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 111):
YOU may not like the FACTS, but that is what they are.

The fact is that they shot a civilian airliner down while it was plying a scheduled service in a recognized international civilian airway. The airliner was following procedure in monitoring air traffic control and keeping its transponder on. IR655 was climbing and was traveling at a speed inconsistent with military, particularly fighter aircraft. Further, the aircraft they claim they thought it was wouldn't have been in the area at the time, rather would have been 570nm away stationed in defense of Tehran against Iraqi attack, which very basic intelligence would have told them. Beyond that, the aircraft they claim they thought it was was incapable of attacking a ship because it was configured as a pure fighter from the factory.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:45 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 108):
Why in the world would an aircraft not in distress monitor a distress frequency?

It's very common for aircraft to monitor 121.5 during routine operations. Hell, I'd monitor that freq when I'm just in the pattern.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:47 pm



Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 113):

It's very common for aircraft to monitor 121.5 during routine operations.

Is it common for commercial aircraft, not student pilots, to monitor 121.5 constantly?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:53 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 114):
Is it common for commercial aircraft, not student pilots, to monitor 121.5 constantly?

Yes. It may not be done all the time by every single crew, but it is done. When an ELT is heard, the crew passes the info on to ATC.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:13 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 106):
Now what if the A300 decided to do a Kamikaze High Dive? The skipper wasn't going to let that be a possibility.

Meagre excuse
-

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 106):
A) these accounts are wrong B) the countries around the place are NOT part of the USA
So just because it is a US account it is wrong?

-
No, but because it is based on the assumption that US views are THE views
-

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 107):
Two or three sunken Iranian speedboats would block the shipping lane for at least a week.
--
Not really. They were go fasts, not patrol boats or warships. wouldn't block anything.

-
OK, nice, but the sinking of them would have caused a political crisis. Was that the intention of somebody in Tehran ?
--- you see, the question really is what the idea was in the place of command on the Iranian side, and in this I feel to be in a total loss
-

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 107):
A) these accounts are wrong
--
Excuse me? were you in the gulf in 1987-1988? I was and yes it was a combat zone. The Iranians and the Iraqi's did ship attacks all the time.

-
And you want to say that those attacks took place between Dubai and Bandar Abbas ??? Do you want to declare that the whole of the Arabian Gulf / Persian Gulf was a "combat zone" ?? Do you want to imply that Iraqi warships were active off the UAE ???
-

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 107):
But Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Oman, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia did consider it a war zone.

They did NOT consider the area between Bandar Abbas and Dubai a war zone.
-

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 110):
No, he shot down a civil airliner in a careless and sloppy way.
In your opinion - period. You've provided nothing to support your accusations.

-
N1120 has given sufficient background about it . He speaks about murder. And I do NOT "accuse" anybody, I just make some observations
-

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 110):
if Captain Rezaian wasn't so careless to have carried his flight full of passengers in a hostile area while not monitoring frequencies that would have warned him of his impending doom, maybe he and his passengers would still be here today.

-
Again, the BandarAbbas-Dubai route was a commercial routine route and NOT a hostile area at all. Quite to the contrary, Dubai already was a booming trading and tourism spot. Captain Rezaian was not careless.
-
 
aviationmaster
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:15 pm

Now Iran claims that the footage showing their gunboats harassing the US warship is fake:  Silly

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080109/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_us_navy
 
PPVRA
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:24 pm

It's amazing how close they got, especially considering their wild behavior. They were very lucky to still be floating after the fact.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
ORFflyer
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:32 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 113):
And I do NOT "accuse" anybody, I just make some observations
-

YES you do. The below is a quote from you, and it is clearly accusing the Captain.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 103):
No, he shot down a civil airliner in a careless and sloppy way.

 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:34 pm



Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 114):
Now Iran claims that the footage showing their gunboats harassing the US warship is fake

A) why did Iran need half a week to come up with a reply ?? Nobody will believe them now.
B) to quote out of the article
Many Arab countries fear the Iranian-American rivalry could erupt into a military confrontation that would put them in the crossfire and hurt vital oil traffic through the Strait of Hormuz.
-
But it looks as if many Iranians and many US-Americans do not give a sh..... about this
-
 
sprout5199
Posts: 1681
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:42 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 113):
And you want to say that those attacks took place between Dubai and Bandar Abbas ??? Do you want to declare that the whole of the Arabian Gulf / Persian Gulf was a "combat zone" ?? Do you want to imply that Iraqi warships were active off the UAE ???

Yes they did, and no I did not say the Iraq's have warships down there. They did do air attacks on oil platforms there.I have pics(will scan them when I get home if you would like to see(not that great of quality though).

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 113):
They did NOT consider the area between Bandar Abbas and Dubai a war zone.

Yes they did. That was where most of the Iranian ship attacks occurred that I witnessed. We were the southern radar picket and spent most of our time in the area just west of the Strait of Hormuz. We also had "other" things onboard for gathering info, however, even though it was 20 years ago, I will not talk about what they were. But we knew when F-14's or F-4's were getting ready to take-off from Bandar Abbas before they even left their parking spots.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 113):
Again, the BandarAbbas-Dubai route was a commercial routine route and NOT a hostile area at all. Quite to the contrary, Dubai already was a booming trading and tourism spot. Captain Rezaian was not careless.

Well it was a hostile area. I was there. And no I don't think Capt Rezaian was careless, just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Dan in Jupiter(edited to add this)

[Edited 2008-01-09 11:47:03]
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:11 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 62):

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 60):

Best defense is a good offense . . .

Not when killing innocent people is involved.

Innocent people die every day, all over the world. While sad, terribly sad, it happens . . .

Quoting N1120A (Reply 72):
They fired because their captain was a moron who didn't make any sort of meaningful attempt to figure out what was going on.

Utter nonsense . . . one does not rise to the rank of Captain, and Command an Aegis Cruiser in the United States Navy if one is a moron . . .

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 116):
Nobody will believe them now.

No one believed them before . . . well, save a few ridiculous apologists here on this site.  sarcastic 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
sprout5199
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:21 pm



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 118):
one does not rise to the rank of Captain, and Command an Aegis Cruiser in the United States Navy if one is a moron .

Coming from a ground-pounder, that is HIGH praise indeed

Dan in jupiter
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:21 pm



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 118):
Nobody will believe them now.

No one believed them before . . . well, save a few ridiculous apologists here on this site

Nobody COULD believe them before because there was no official statement from the Iranian side for THREE days. The only positive aspect of THIS point is that there is hope that the "action" was NOT based on a command from supreme echelons.
-
It is well possible that Tehran now exerts pressure on some countries of the Arabian Gulf coast to "accept" their story in public, whenever none of them will believe a word.
 
N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:35 pm



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 118):

Innocent people die every day, all over the world. While sad, terribly sad, it happens . . .

Not by a missile from the most advanced attack ship of the day.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 118):

Utter nonsense . . . one does not rise to the rank of Captain, and Command an Aegis Cruiser in the United States Navy if one is a moron . . .

Well, he acted the fool that day.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
halls120
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:42 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 106):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 89):

It was indeed a tragedy that those innocent people died.

No, it was reckless murder

The why wasn't he prosecuted? Hint - it wasn't murder.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 106):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 89):
But when a year earlier the Stark took a missile hit because they weren't aggressive enough in a combat zone

How about you tell me just what air force actually fired those Exocets at the Stark

Doesn't matter who fired the Exocets. That isn't relevant to this discussion.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 106):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 89):

I'll bet, however, that any commerical aircraft today is monitoring the proper frequencies while operating in that theater.

They were monitoring the proper frequencies

Legally proper, perhaps. Prudently monitoring, no.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 108):
Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 111):

Everyone here knows it was the Iraq's air force that hit the Stark.

The implication was that Iran hit the Stark.

I never said nor implied it was Iranian missile. That was you jumping to conclusions, and displaying your ignorance as to what we are discussing here - a CO in charge of a ship in a combat zone.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 110):
Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 113):

It's very common for aircraft to monitor 121.5 during routine operations.

Is it common for commercial aircraft, not student pilots, to monitor 121.5 constantly?

In a combat zone, they should be.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:07 am



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 122):

In a combat zone, they should be.

There was no air battle. Further, what would an Aegis cruiser be doing in a Naval combat zone between two sovereigns not involving the US anyway? Particularly considering that the Vincennes was in Iranian waters anyway.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 122):

Doesn't matter who fired the Exocets. That isn't relevant to this discussion.

Yes, it absolutely is.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 122):

I never said nor implied it was Iranian missile.

The implication based on the subject matter and your post was that Iran had attacked the Stark.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
sprout5199
Posts: 1681
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:30 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 123):
Further, what would an Aegis cruiser be doing in a Naval combat zone between two sovereigns not involving the US anyway?

Protecting US flagged ships. The reason for the USS Vincennes was sent there was to protect the USS Samuel B Roberts when she left the gulf on the Mighty Servant. Also she was there to protect the reflagged tankers, and to make sure the international shipping lanes were kept open.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 123):
Further, what would an Aegis cruiser be doing in a Naval combat zone between two sovereigns not involving the US anyway?



Quoting N1120A (Reply 108):
The fact is that they shot a civilian airliner down while it was plying a scheduled service in a recognized international civilian airway

Which was it? a Naval combat zone or a recognized international civilian airway?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 123):
Particularly considering that the Vincennes was in Iranian waters anyway.

One of the mistakes learned later. However if a country attacks anothers ship and then tries to run back to thier waters and hide is in for a rude awaking(lesson we learned from Vietnam).

I said it before lets start a new tread about the Vincennes and talk there if you want.



Dan in Jupiter
 
N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:44 am



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 124):
Also she was there to protect the reflagged tankers

Are you talking about the deceptive tactics used by an aggressor nation that attacked without provocation? So the was supposed to be "protecting" them?

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 124):

Which was it? a Naval combat zone or a recognized international civilian airway?

The aircraft was in a recognized international civilian airway. The ship was in Iranian waters, in the middle of a defensive effort by the same.

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 124):


I said it before lets start a new tread about the Vincennes and talk there if you want.

No. It was brought up here and reasonably correlates to the discussion at hand.

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 124):
However if a country attacks anothers ship and then tries to run back to thier waters and hide is in for a rude awaking

Do you actually believe the Gulf of Tonkin was a real thing?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
sprout5199
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:50 am

See my answers here:
US Vs Iran In 1987-1988 (by Sprout5199 Jan 9 2008 in Non Aviation)

Dan in Jupiter
 
Stealthz
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:21 am



Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 109):
It's very common for aircraft to monitor 121.5 during routine operations. Hell, I'd monitor that freq when I'm just in the pattern.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 110):
Is it common for commercial aircraft, not student pilots, to monitor 121.5 constantly?

According to the ICAO it is...
"According to ICAO Annex 10 - Volume II, an aircraft shall continuously guard the VHF emergency frequency 121.5 MHz in areas or over routes where the possibility of interception of aircraft or other hazardous situations exist, and a requirement has been established by the appropriate authority."

There is another ICAO Annexe that requires all aircraft to monitor 121.5(likely superseded with additional freq now) when in an area where aircraft/vessels are required to carry EPIRB equipment.

Additionally, before you ask Iran IS a contracting state to the ICAO

Cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
N1120A
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:34 am



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 127):
"According to ICAO Annex 10 - Volume II, an aircraft shall continuously guard the VHF emergency frequency 121.5 MHz in areas or over routes where the possibility of interception of aircraft or other hazardous situations exist, and a requirement has been established by the appropriate authority."

Did BND Departure tell him to monitor 121.5? Was it a requirement by Iran's Ministry of Aviation, etc.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 127):

Additionally, before you ask Iran IS a contracting state to the ICAO

I am well aware of that.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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yowza
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:18 am



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 118):
Utter nonsense . . . one does not rise to the rank of Captain, and Command an Aegis Cruiser in the United States Navy if one is a moron . . .

Moron or not, NOBODY is incapable of making a mistake. NOBODY.

Irrespective of nationality (yes even Americans) and irrespective of experience and training (yes even the blessed US Navy) makes mistakes. This is not the issue, merely a distraction created to deflect attention away from the real issue.

The real issue: a lack of foresight and coolness in assessing a turbulent situation correctly and responsibly. Such shows of force (and the underlying message they send) in waters far from home should be very deliberate and very well thought out. It is undeniable that this was a failure of leadership. A failure the US government chose squarely to ignore. To further rub salt into the raw wounds they gave Rogers some medal or other and struck this whole incident from his public record! I would cite the findings of independent panels on this issue but you will simply discredit them as being anti-American rhetoric so I will skip that to avoid getting into a slagging match.

Instead I will point this out:
This incident was preceded by other skirmishes. Skirmishes that other senior members of the US Navy attributed to Rogers' volatile, overly aggressive style. This includes direct criticism by Commander X (I forget his name, but I can research this if you like) who was in charge of another vessel in the area at the time . So tell me if a moron can not achieve the rank of Captain in the US Navy, can a moron achieve the rank of Commander?

At least we can all be thankful that in the current skirmish restraint was shown and US naval leadership gave a great account of themselves.

YOWza
 
sprout5199
Posts: 1681
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:26 am

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:32 am



Quoting YOWza (Reply 129):
The real issue: a lack of foresight and coolness in assessing a turbulent situation correctly and responsibly. Such shows of force (and the underlying message they send) in waters far from home should be very deliberate and very well thought out. It is undeniable that this was a failure of leadership. A failure the US government chose squarely to ignore. To further rub salt into the raw wounds they gave Rogers some medal or other and struck this whole incident from his public record! I would cite the findings of independent panels on this issue but you will simply discredit them as being anti-American rhetoric so I will skip that to avoid getting into a slagging match.

This was not a "failure of leadership". This was a CO doing what he thought was best given the info he had at the time. Mistakes were made, and I have never said that there was no mistakes made. What I am most pissed about is people on the site saying that Capt. Rodgers was a moron,reckless,careless and so on. The only US CO that I know of in the past 25 years that was even close to that was Cmdr Brindel of the Stark, but he was hampered with a bad ROE. Was Capt Rodgers aggresive? Of course, you don't give the best AAW platform in history to a meek person. Was it sad that the US shot down a airliner full of people? YES.

Most people here were not even born when this happened, all they know is what Wikipedia says about it. I do know something about it. I was there in 1987, I remember how aggressive the Iranian's were to us. I remember see the damage to the Stark when we outchopped with her(I know she was attacked by the Iraqis). I remember being in my rack at 11:30 pm and listening to my CO tell us that an Iranian frigate was messing with us and pointing their gun at us, and hearing in the back ground the EW of the watch scream that he just lit off his F/C radar and racing to GQ, just waiting to hear a missile launch. I remember the Captain of a Greek tanker pleading with our CO to do something about the Iranian ship that was shelling his ship. And our CO requesting permission just to put our ship between them and the Iranian ship,and Commideastforce telling us no, thats not in the ROE.I remember the day that we found the Iran Ajr laying mines. And I remember the day I heard that the Roberts hit a mine, because my brother-in-law was the HM onboard that ship. So if it seems that I take this personal, well I DO. Shipmates were lost during that time, my family was in danger, to me it wasn't a game or a "show of force". It was life or death. If people here can't deal with what happened then "oh well". The Persian Gulf in 1987-1988 was the most dangerous place on earth that was due to Iran/Iraq not caring about international law.

Dan in Jupiter
 
Stealthz
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:21 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 128):
Did BND Departure tell him to monitor 121.5? Was it a requirement by Iran's Ministry of Aviation, etc.

Perhaps not but the ICAO protocols about monitoring while in overwater flights did tell him he should.

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 130):
The Persian Gulf in 1987-1988 was the most dangerous place on earth that was due to Iran/Iraq not caring about international law.

This certainly made it prudent
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:35 am



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 48):
Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 35):
And what they seen was what they thought was an aircraft that was heading for them and desending(I know that later it was proved that it wasn't, but that was hindsight), they gave warnings, as best they could,

The first part can be excused as carelessness, and the "warnings" were given in a way NOT to be received by the pilots of a civil airliner.

At least our pilots (and the pilots of other airlines I know) HAVE to monitor 121.5 during flight.
VHF 2 is ALWAYS set on 121.5, unless it is being used for receiving an ATIS or contacting OPS.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:59 am



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 133):
HAVE to monitor 121.5 during flight.
VHF 2 is ALWAYS set on 121.5, unless it is being used for receiving an ATIS or contacting OPS.

that may be, but such things differ from country to country. It is well possible that it is done by Iran Air now as well.
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:38 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 128):
Did BND Departure tell him to monitor 121.5? Was it a requirement by Iran's Ministry of Aviation, etc.

It is common sense. You want to point fingers, but yet you fail to accept the fact that the Iran Air Captain was not monitoring guard which was a CONTRIBUTING factor to his demise.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:12 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 135):
It is common sense. You want to point fingers, but yet you fail to accept the fact that the Iran Air Captain was not monitoring guard which was a CONTRIBUTING factor to his demise.

-
Commercial pilots have to follow set procedures. It is fairly obvious that this was NOT in the regulations of the Iranian CAA or of Iran Air. So, to point fingers at the Captain on board is not the way. You MIGHT possibly point your fingers at the Iranian CAA, but a warship captain and no time should expect a civilian airliner to be monitoring this. Beside the basic point that the Bandar Abbas - Dubai airroute is and was a standard air-route, and Dubai was NOT a warzone. We in the 1980ies had tons of airfreight to Dubai and nothing was covered against war-risks as nobody in Europe perceived the UAE coastline as a warzone.
 
damirc
Posts: 727
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:43 am

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:20 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 133):
At least our pilots (and the pilots of other airlines I know) HAVE to monitor 121.5 during flight.
VHF 2 is ALWAYS set on 121.5, unless it is being used for receiving an ATIS or contacting OPS.

From what I've read they were monitoring 121.5. They did not realize that it was them who were refered to by as the "Iranian Tomcat" and the "unidentified Iranian aircraft flying 350 kts" (due to the fact that their IAS was 300 kts). It was the message from the USS Sides that they finally did understand that the warnings were meant for them, since they started to turn away - but unfortunately the 2 missiles from the Vincennes were already launched by that time.

It is the sad truth, that the holes in the cheese lined up. The USS Vincennes CIC first got the A300 flagged as track number 4474, but during the course of the engagement this TN was replaced by the USS Sides (from what I gather both the CIC of the USS Sides and the USS Vincennes were linked together in some way) track number TN4131 (once the computer recognized that both TN4474 of the USS Vincennes and the TN4131 of the USS Sides were the same target). At the same time TN4474 was reassigned to an American A6, which was quite a bit away but was descending at the time. Not all of the crew of the CIC on the USS Vincennes did immediately realize that TN4474 was no longer the jet they were following from the start.

A further factor was the position of the USS Vincennes which found itself smack in the middle of the aviation corridor - and unfortunately also approximately 3 nm inside Iranian territorial waters.

D.
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:24 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 136):
Commercial pilots have to follow set procedures.

And when they fly international routes, they should be following the accepted standards, namely ICAO.

Read this again:

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 127):
According to the ICAO it is...
"According to ICAO Annex 10 - Volume II, an aircraft shall continuously guard the VHF emergency frequency 121.5 MHz in areas or over routes where the possibility of interception of aircraft or other hazardous situations exist, and a requirement has been established by the appropriate authority."

There is another ICAO Annexe that requires all aircraft to monitor 121.5(likely superseded with additional freq now) when in an area where aircraft/vessels are required to carry EPIRB equipment.



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 136):
to point fingers at the Captain on board is not the way.

He was in command of the airplane. It was his decision not to monitor Guard.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 136):
but a warship captain and no time should expect a civilian airliner to be monitoring this

See Stealth's post. I would say hazardous conditions exist, they were after all at war with Iraq. Prudence would dictate it. Having one radio tuned to the Guard frequency is not an annoyance, it is not like there is a whole lot of transmissions being broadcast on it.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 136):
UAE coastline as a warzone

But it borders the Persian gulf, and that was an area for hostile activity.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:28 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 138):
in areas or over routes where the possibility of interception of aircraft or other hazardous situations exist, and a requirement has been established by the appropriate authority."

A) "where the possibility" --- but it was a routine standard route
B) "established by the appropriate authority" --- THIS was the Iranian CAA

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 138):
UAE coastline as a warzone
--
But it borders the Persian gulf, and that was an area for hostile activity.

-
The Arabian Gulf in general was NOT "an area for hostile activity". That only applies to the area at the northern end near to the Shatt-el-Arab, but not for the whole Gulf-area.
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:34 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 139):
THIS was the Iranian CAA

The captain of the aircraft is the final authority for it's operation. The Iranian CAA was not flying the aircraft.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:50 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 123):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 122):

In a combat zone, they should be.

There was no air battle. Further, what would an Aegis cruiser be doing in a Naval combat zone between two sovereigns not involving the US anyway? Particularly considering that the Vincennes was in Iranian waters anyway.

You are simply providing further evidence that you nothing about the subject matter you are attempting to discuss. That no air battle was going on at that time doesn't mean one couldn't commence without warning. You have heard about Pearl Harbor, I trust?

As to why the Vincennes was there, ever heard of the concept of freedom of navigation? Given your lack of understanding of the law of the sea, I suspect you haven't.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 123):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 122):

Doesn't matter who fired the Exocets. That isn't relevant to this discussion.

Yes, it absolutely is.

How so?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 123):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 122):

I never said nor implied it was Iranian missile.

The implication based on the subject matter and your post was that Iran had attacked the Stark.

No. I didn't state who fired the missile at the Stark because it wasn't relevant to the point I was discussing - the inherent responsibility of a Commanding Officer to take all necessary measures to defend his ship from attack.

It could have been a missile fired by mistake from a friendly warship - it simply does not matter for the point of this discussion.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 127):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 110):
Is it common for commercial aircraft, not student pilots, to monitor 121.5 constantly?

According to the ICAO it is...
"According to ICAO Annex 10 - Volume II, an aircraft shall continuously guard the VHF emergency frequency 121.5 MHz in areas or over routes where the possibility of interception of aircraft or other hazardous situations exist, and a requirement has been established by the appropriate authority."

Given the state of play in the area he was flying, the Iranian pilot should have been paying close attention to 121.5

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 132):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 128):
Did BND Departure tell him to monitor 121.5? Was it a requirement by Iran's Ministry of Aviation, etc.

Perhaps not but the ICAO protocols about monitoring while in overwater flights did tell him he should.

Not to mention common sense when flying through a combat zone.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:46 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 140):
The Iranian CAA was not flying the aircraft.

But a Captain has to execute his instructions and guidelines
-

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 141):
flying through a combat zone.

but the area between Bandar Abbas and Dubai was NOT a "combat zone", not at all
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:50 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 142):
But a Captain has to execute his instructions and guidelines

But he is the FINAL authority. Not the CAA. And in many cases a PIC may deviate from any regulation to meet any emergency. Having the possibility of a SAM stuffed up my six would qualify as an emergency.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:01 pm



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 144):
Dan in Jupiter

Can you say:
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:12 pm



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 144):
but the area between Bandar Abbas and Dubai was NOT a "combat zone", not at all

YES IT WAS. I WAS THERE, SAW THE SHIP ATTACKS. NOW DEAL WITH IT.

exact nautical position please. Thanks
 
LHStarAlliance
Posts: 2096
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:15 pm

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:28 pm



Quoting Airlinelover (Thread starter):

this seems for me like a good insinuation of the Pentagon , they are trying to find as much as reasons as possible to start a war , and we all know they have lied in the past why shouldn't they do it again .

a lie that is easy to see through ...

Constantin
Boycott The Olympic Games In Beijing !
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:29 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 147):
this seems for me like a good insinuation of the Pentagon , they are trying to find as much as reasons as possible to start a war , and we all know they have lied in the past why shouldn't they do it again .

This isn't the Gulf of Tonkin.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
EvilForce
Posts: 974
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:12 am

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:43 pm

This whole thing is much ado about nothing. Tempest in a teacup. You'd have to be a fool to not give the US Navy a very, very wide berth. Likewise, the US Navy should know and probably does know that there will be the inevitable scrape here and there. It's like being the biggest guy in a bar room. Someone will wanna get drunk and cocky and try to take you on. Are you going to let one drunk ruin your entire night? Likewise are you going to let a little gunboat with zero chance of taking you on ruin America's foreign policy objectives?

For anyone claiming what they would / wouldn't do in that situation, you really have no idea unless you've actually been in that situation and the one ultimately responsible for the lives of people under your command. It's a bit like being a police officer and having every arm chair expert saying what they police officer should have done, all the while sitting in the safety of their homes. Until you are the ones facing a gun in your face you don't know how you will react.

The Iranian gunboat flap ended with no injuries or issues, let's be thankful for that and give it the attention it deserves, which is none.
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
michlis
Posts: 696
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:13 am

RE: Iranian Gunboats Harass US Warships..

Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:05 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 149):
Likewise are you going to let a little gunboat with zero chance of taking you on ruin America's foreign policy objectives?

Consider that one little boat left a huge hole and several seamen dead and injured on the USS Cole. One little Iranian boat packed with their favorite explosives could do the same or worse. I would say if that happened that too would ruin America's foreign policy objectives.
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.

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