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Blackbird
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Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:21 pm

How is it that Conservatives will have a cow and raise a holy terror whenever any of their precious tax dollars are being used to fund something like welfare (which truthfully is not used by people to "avoid work" but by poor women who've had like five kids and have no husbands) or seemingly any program that involves tax-dollars to improve public quality of life, yet these same people have no problem with their government spending billions of their precious tax-dollars on the military and fighting wars (and other government functions), and killing people (never on peace) even when it's been established in the past that some of this spending has been spent on programs that have been considered nothing short of depraved, totally in conflict with the values of this country or even just deranged?

I think it's completely hypocritical. They want low taxes on anything that could be used for peace, but will allow the government to burn up billions on military and waging wars; They want smaller government, except the executive branch -- particularly military which they want as big and powerful as possible.



Andrea Kent
 
ORFflyer
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:22 pm

Flamebait
No references
Typical post from you.

SD the whole thread.
 
N74JW
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:23 pm

The Republicans stand for those that are more affluent in the US. The middle and lower class citizens do not factor in to many Republican equations, outside of election time. Lowering taxes is a campaign slogan, nothing more.

Keep in mind, they are politicians, whom are eternally full of it and care only about being re-elected...
rm -r *
 
Queso
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:26 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
which truthfully is not used by people to "avoid work"



Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
They want smaller government, except the executive branch -- particularly military which they want as big and powerful as possible.

Simple- if you don't protect the country then all the social programs in the world will mean nothing at all when President Hugo is in charge.
 
AF340
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:32 pm



Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 1):
Flamebait
No references
Typical post from you.

SD the whole thread.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2197/2176107122_aca8363083_o.jpg



Liam spin 
 
N74JW
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:35 pm



Quoting AF340 (Reply 4):
Reply 4

Whatcha goin for? Cats...Gars?
rm -r *
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:36 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
(which truthfully is not used by people to "avoid work" but by poor women who've had like five kids and have no husbands)

Why do they have 5 kids? Do they want more welfare money? If they were smart, they would have stopped after 2, or not had any at all.
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lincoln
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:43 pm

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
How is it that Conservatives will have a cow and raise a holy terror whenever any of their precious tax dollars are being used to fund something like welfare (which truthfully is not used by people to "avoid work" but by poor women who've had like five kids and have no husbands) or seemingly any program that involves tax-dollars to improve public quality of life, yet these same people have no problem with their government spending billions of their precious tax-dollars on the military and fighting wars

This is my problem and why if you ask me "Democrat or Republican" I'll usually spend a few minutes sputtering and then not answer the question.

I'm funadmentally opposed to welfare, Social Security, socialized health care, et. al. because in essence it penalizes me for other people's inablity un unwillingness to plan ahead. I have retirement plans, I have disability, life, and health insurance, that I pay for on my own. I also donate to the charities. Why should I pay for someone else's retirement? Why should money that I have earned go to someone who is unwilling to find work who I have absolutely no connection with? (There are plenty of jobs out there, just too many people -- including those on welfare -- think that flipping burgers or cleaning toilets is 'below them'). Therefore, especially with all of the crap about national healthcare that the dems are spewing, I can't in good conscience vote democratic.

On the otherhand I don't think that the current administration has been any more fiscally responsible. And both foreign and domestic policy has done more to chip away at individual liberties than (almost) anything a Democrat has ever done. I think Mr. Bush is on an ill-advised empire building spree fraught with conflicts of interst at the cost of the American taxpayer and our relationships with foreign governments* and our international credibility, and I don't really see a new Republican administration doing anything about that. Therefore, I have qualms with voting Republican.

And no one, even, the (popular) independents is willing to say anything about the pyramid-scheme mess that Social Security has become, therefore I don't know that I could vote for any of them

Ahh, the joys of belonging to a demographic group that no one expects to vote en mass, has virtually no lobbying power, and therefore no politician cares about (Single, white/american indian male, homeowner, under 25, no college degree, pretax income > $60k, with substantial liquid assets and investments)

Lincoln
* - I don't really give a crap about the whole "consensus building" thing; in fact, I think governing solely by consensus is a recepie for disaster, but when you've spent so long cultivating fragile relationships to not at least extend some courtesies is bound to result in...well, what we have now.

[Edited 2008-01-07 11:53:12]
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rfields5421
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:44 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
How is it that Conservatives

Which conservatives?

The Republican Party hasn't had conservatives for almost 20 years, well at least 10.

The Republican Party is just as much big government, big domestic spending as the Democrats - more so in the past few years.

It's pretty simple - once they get elected - no matter which party - they quickly learn they will not be re-elected if they actually try to control spending.

Now where the money is spent is an argument - but the Republicans are just as bad as the Democrats.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:58 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):

Andrea Kent

Your posts never cease to amaze me in how narrow minded and completely absurd they are. Read a few books, go out and meet a few people. You really need to get out more.

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 1):
Flamebait
No references
Typical post from you.

SD the whole thread.

 yes 
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:02 pm



Quoting Lincoln (Reply 7):
I'm funadmentally opposed to welfare, Social Security, socialized health care, et. al. because in essence it penalizes me for other people's inablity un unwillingness to plan ahead. I have retirement plans, I have disability, life, and health insurance, that I pay for on my own. I also donate to the charities. Why should I pay for someone else's retirement? Why should money that I have earned go to someone who is unwilling to find work who I have absolutely no connection with?

It's all too easy in a capitalist society to make a few bad choices that wind up putting you in a position where you can't dig yourself out even if you want to. (The best example I can think of is the homeless - lots of people say "They should just get jobs," but would you as a business owner really hire someone with no phone, no address, no references, nowhere to shower and maintain personal hygiene, possible mental health issues, etc.?) Programs like welfare, Social Security, etc. are there to make sure that people who do make bad decisions still have the opportunity to change their situation. Doesn't mean the programs don't get abused (e.g. the single welfare mom with 5 kids, assuming it's not a case where the husband left or died), but they are there for a good reason.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
AGM100
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:06 pm



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 8):
It's pretty simple - once they get elected - no matter which party - they quickly learn they will not be re-elected if they actually try to control spending.

Federal and State Tax revenues were the highest ever in 2005/2006 /2007. The number I heard was 2.78 Trillion or something like that ... and guess what they still need more to keep the programs humming. And now add health care to it ... pooof!  cry   down 
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
skyservice_330
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:08 pm



Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 6):
Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
(which truthfully is not used by people to "avoid work" but by poor women who've had like five kids and have no husbands)

Why do they have 5 kids? Do they want more welfare money? If they were smart, they would have stopped after 2, or not had any at all.

Isn't that punishing the child for the stupid actions of their parent though? In rich developed countries, something just doesn't seem right about a child going to bed or going to school hungry. Then again, that is simply teaching the child that irregardless of their actions and decisions the government will be there to help them and put money in their pocket, which I don't think is the right mentality to instill into children. I suppose that is where parenting comes in and teaching a child that hard work is what gets you through life, not cheques from the government.
 
Blackbird
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:14 pm

ORFlyer,

Quote:
Flamebait
No references
Typical post from you.

SD the whole thread.

It's an opinion, opinions do not require sources. Also, there are some things which are so commonly known -- political parties agendas -- that they do not require references.

It was not meant as flamebait. Just because you don't agree with or like what I posted doesn't make it flamebait


Queso,

But some of that military and government spending go into programs that you would find repulsive and horrifying, and totally in conflict with what America stands for (I don't know about classified programs, but some unclassified ones, granted decades after the fact were pretty horrifying!). Look at some of the ideas DARPA thought of, none of the ones I discussed are classified.


AF340,

I'm a bit taller than that  Wink


AirTranUS,

Keep in mind, you don't get a proportional increase in welfare per head. You get a certain increase with one kid, but a lot less with the second, and even less with the third, fourth and fifth. So even then these women are usually barely able to raise these kids.

And yeah, it's irresponsible to be unmarried and have lots of kids. But unfortunately a lot of women on wellfare are uneducated, and unfortunately due to either ignorance, religious beliefs don't believe in birth-control.


Andrea Kent
 
Queso
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:24 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 13):
But some of that military and government spending go into programs that you would find repulsive and horrifying

 Cool Heh heh heh....... Wanna bet?

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 13):
and totally in conflict with what America stands for

Whose America? Not the one I live in and love! You yourself would be repulsed and horrified if you knew what I wish the military and government were doing!
 
MDorBust
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:41 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
but by poor women who've had like five kids and have no husbands

Unless she's the virgin mary this is a problem of her own making and none of my concern to deal with, or to fund.

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
....yet these same people have no problem with their government spending billions of their precious tax-dollars on the military and fighting wars (and other government functions), and killing people (never on peace)

I personally signed the spending bill that authorized the **secret agency redacted** to use all available means to bring you to GITMO.

 wave 

Have fun in the tropical paradise Andrew.
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Pope
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:32 pm



Quoting N74JW (Reply 2):
The Republicans stand for those that are more affluent in the US. The middle and lower class citizens do not factor in to many Republican equations, outside of election time. Lowering taxes is a campaign slogan, nothing more.

I grew up lower middle class. We always had enough but nothing extra. But my family was 100% Republican because we believed in personal responsibility.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 10):
It's all too easy in a capitalist society to make a few bad choices that wind up putting you in a position where you can't dig yourself out even if you want to.

I wonder if those few bad choices include not studying in school. Do they include foregoing current consumption for future benefit? Do they include saving for the future and not expecting the government to be there for you always?

I taught a Junior Achievment class at a local "inner city" high school this fall. Day 1 I asked the class (made up of 9th, 10th and 11th graders who were deemed "average" by their teacher) how someone makes money. I got a laundry list of government aid programs that must have been more than 20 deep. NOT A SINGLE CHILD SAID - WORK or START A COMPANY.

Please don't tell me that we aren't raising a generation of lower income individuals to be dependent on the government for their very existence. Democrats believe that nobody is responsible for the condition of their life. Life happens to you. While it's undoubtable that bad things happen to people, the MILLIONS of Americans on welfare and government aid programs aren't as Harry Reid once termed it, the losers of life's lottery.

I also made the offer to hire one of them if they wrote me a letter of introduction and sent me a resume. The best applicant would be hired. I didn't get a single "application".

I'm sure many successful people on this forum recall times when instead of going out and partying they spent an extra couple of hours at the library. It's too easy to blame "a few bad choices" as an excuse for failure when you life's outcome is largely made up of the sum total of those choices. Make a few bad choices and you end up with less options over time.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
lincoln
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:24 pm



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 10):
It's all too easy in a capitalist society to make a few bad choices that wind up putting you in a position where you can't dig yourself out even if you want to

Maybe I'm too idealistic (ha ha) or just plain f---ed up but I feel that that's the role of local (and independent) charities. It's not that I'm inhumane, I just resent politicians who feel that they know how to better distribute my money than I do and/or feel like directing my money to causes or programs I have fundamental objections to.

And why should those who have made a few good choices be forced to support those who have made a few bad choices?

As I said in my initial reply, I do donate to local charities and nonprofits who effect 'good things' in my local area, so I'm not totally heartless -- it's just one of many things that I feel the federal government has no business getting involved with. (Though I must admit, one of the things that's been on my personal to-do list for far too long is to find the local Habitat for Humanity chapter and put some elbow grease where my mouth is)

Social Security has arguably made problems worse -- workers who may have saved on their own were (and continue to be) lead to beleive that Father Government will take care of them.

When I was attending college, in one of my political science classes, the subject of independent retire accounts was debated. One of the people presenting (what I would label, at least) the liberal side of the issue basically said in as many words, "I'm too incompetent to manage my own investments, so no one else should be able to either!" -- I was floored. Since then, in paying attention to the arguments againtst it, that's basically what everyone is saying, just wordsmithing their way around calling people incompetent. Fine. Have some baseline government-managed retirement program available (not required) for those who really feel that the government has a better idea about how to plan for their retirement than they do.

I'm by no means wealthy, I don't have an ivy leauge degree behind me, hell, I wasn't even popular in high school, but I do beleive that I am ultimately responsible for all aspects of my persona (and should the day ever come, my family's) well being.

Lincoln
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
Blackbird
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:19 pm

Yellowstone,

Quote:
It's all too easy in a capitalist society to make a few bad choices that wind up putting you in a position where you can't dig yourself out even if you want to. (The best example I can think of is the homeless - lots of people say "They should just get jobs," but would you as a business owner really hire someone with no phone, no address, no references, nowhere to shower and maintain personal hygiene, possible mental health issues, etc.?) Programs like welfare, Social Security, etc. are there to make sure that people who do make bad decisions still have the opportunity to change their situation. Doesn't mean the programs don't get abused (e.g. the single welfare mom with 5 kids, assuming it's not a case where the husband left or died), but they are there for a good reason.

Agreed. The government programs should be used as a last-ditch bail-out.


MDorBust,

Quote:
I personally signed the spending bill that authorized the **secret agency redacted** to use all available means to bring you to GITMO.

That's a pretty horrible and sick thing to say -- you essentially said that because you and I disagree on government spending issues that I should be abducted and sent to Guantanamo Bay indefinetly to be tortured and beaten until I either die, or "confess" to a crime I didn't do under torture to essentially make the pain stop, and then would be sentenced to either death or indefinete detention. Because I disagree with your political views.

That sounds like something that would have been done in the Soviet Union. Real nice...


Pope,

Quote:
I grew up lower middle class. We always had enough but nothing extra. But my family was 100% Republican because we believed in personal responsibility.

I believe in personal responsibility to a point -- there are things that happen to people though, sometimes tragic, that are not entirely their fault. Now I'm not just saying they should whine and say poor me, but bad things do happen to good people. It's also possible for a person to dig themselves into a hole they simply can't get out of if they tried their damndest.

Quote:
Maybe I'm too idealistic (ha ha) or just plain f---ed up but I feel that that's the role of local (and independent) charities. It's not that I'm inhumane, I just resent politicians who feel that they know how to better distribute my money than I do and/or feel like directing my money to causes or programs I have fundamental objections to.

But you don't resent politicians who direct large portions of your tax dollars towards the purpose of waging wars, and towards military programs and government programs you probably would have fundamental objections to?

Regarding charities, sometimes they can't cut it alone. At that point the government is needed to deal with the problem -- someone's gotta step in right? Ideally charities could do it all themselves, but it doesn't always work that way.

Quote:
And why should those who have made a few good choices be forced to support those who have made a few bad choices?

If society won't even help it's own people out when things go wrong for them, they might as well be living in the wild.

There are some bad choices that can put a person in a mess that's hard to recover from that are obviously not deliberate: That's a problem that I see with lots of conservatives -- they have this attitude that people who've had a rough ride decided one day: "I'm just going to make a bunch of bad decisions, screw my life up and end up on the street."

Quote:
Social Security has arguably made problems worse -- workers who may have saved on their own were (and continue to be) lead to beleive that Father Government will take care of them.

Perhaps some people have become over-reliant on such things, but it has a legitimate purpose if a person happens to dig themselves into a situation that's too deep to get out of.

Quote:
I'm by no means wealthy, I don't have an ivy leauge degree behind me, hell, I wasn't even popular in high school, but I do beleive that I am ultimately responsible for all aspects of my persona (and should the day ever come, my family's) well being.

All aspects of your persona? So you're saying that if a person happens to be gay, that theyr'e responsible for being gay, like it's their choice?


Andrea Kent
 
MDorBust
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:23 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 18):
you essentially said that because you and I disagree on government spending issues that I should be abducted and sent to Guantanamo Bay indefinetly to be tortured and beaten until I either die, or "confess" to a crime I didn't do under torture to essentially make the pain stop, and then would be sentenced to either death or indefinete detention. Because I disagree with your political views.

No, you just made all that up.

I just said, "I personally signed the spending bill that authorized the **secret agency redacted** to use all available means to bring you to GITMO."

I've left up to your imagination what you think you are going to get there. You could just as easily be taken there to be an interrogator. I've always said that if you beg the question of a guilty mind it will fill in the blanks for you... Now, why exactly do you think the government would treat you like a terrorist? Something you need to share with us?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Blackbird
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:31 pm

MDorBust,

I haven't committed any crime. However I have been critical of some things the government has said and done, and have used my first amendment rights as such. However, our government has been doing all sorts of things it shouldn't be doing. Like putting activists opposed to the Iraq war back in 2002 on no fly lists, engaging in warrantless wiretapping and surveillance. How about the military commissions act which allows at the President or SECDEF's say so to detain US citizens and deprive them of any habeas corpus rights, and allow evidence obtained through brutal torture to be allowed in, and allows the government to admit evidence the defense can't see.

Frankly I don't know what the hell they'd do. Keep in mind even at GTMO, there were/are several hundred people there who didn't do anything related to terrorism, yet were still held there for several years without charges, without right to counsel.

The thought that the government would lock up a bunch of political dissidents, even if just like me, they're non-violent doesn't strike me as that crazy an idea.


Andrea Kent
 
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:34 pm

Quite simply, because the Constitution says it is the government's job to protect the US by forming a common defense (that would be the US military). It says nothing about welfare, SSA, or any of the other myriad of social programs that have come to exist. Those programs may have a place, but I feel, belong to the Several States on an individual basis.

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
which truthfully is not used by people to "avoid work" but by poor women who've had like five kids and have no husbands)

Please. I grew up in NY, in a not so good neighborhood. Hell, we were on welfare for a while, no shame here. We got off the instant we could. It required that my mother get a job in addition to my father. We (they, to be accurate) wound up buying a house and being rather successful). But back to my point...there are plenty of people who use welfare as a reason not to work, just keep getting that check. And, by the way, 5 kids and no husband...who's fault is that? Certainly not mine. The kids should be placed in foster care and put up for adoption if the mother can't care for them.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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MDorBust
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:43 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 20):
MDorBust,

I haven't committed any crime.... *yawn*....

Yeah, we get it. Bush/Chenney = Evil.

Since you started off the thread with Conservatives = Teh Debil it wasn't hard to see that coming.

Must be Monday.

Beware the Black Helicopters... or was it Ides of March..

Anywho, I'm off the repress some poor single mothers and giggle as I held The Man keep them down.





PS: Everything you type here can and will be used against you in a court of law... next week
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Blackbird
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:46 pm

On what charge?

Andrea Kent
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:48 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 18):
I believe in personal responsibility to a point

Why "to a point," Andrea? You either believe in personal responsibility and accountability, or you don't.

And by saying your OPINION is that welfare is, for the most part, not abused, you clearly do NOT believe in personal responsibility.

I know people who think the way you do. And they scare me.

These are the people who say things like, "How am I supposed to raise a family of four on 40 hours a week at minimum wage?"

My reply is always the same. "Newsflash - you're NOT supposed to. That's the idea. You should either try to earn more than just minimum wage, work WAY more hours, or - gasp - DON'T HAVE A FAMILY OF FOUR IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD IT."


And yet they always feel otherwise - like somehow, somewhere, other people who are even the slightest bit more successful or affluent than they are should be required to give them a leg up.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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MDorBust
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:51 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 23):
On what charge?

Numerous violations of Federal Code Section ***Redacted For National Security Reasons*** as well as aggravated ***Redacted For National Security Reasons*** and conspiracy to commit ***Redacted For National Security Reasons***

If I were you, I'd hire Johnnie Cochran. He's the only one who can get you off the hook.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Queso
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:57 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 25):
If I were you, I'd hire Johnnie Cochran. He's the only one who can get you off the hook.

He's dead, dude. Maybe the black helicopters got him, too!
 
MDorBust
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:15 am



Quoting Queso (Reply 26):
He's dead, dude.

I hear he still takes appointments through snow globe seances.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:48 am



Quoting Queso (Reply 26):
He's dead, dude.

That's what ***Redacted For National Security Reasons*** wants you to think.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
Blackbird
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:09 pm

When I say I believe in personal responsibility to a point, I mean there are certain things a person has considerable control over, and other things they do not.

It's unreasonable to hold a person accountable for things they cannot control.


Andrea Kent
 
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:12 pm



Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 21):
But back to my point...there are plenty of people who use welfare as a reason not to work, just keep getting that check

If that's so, restrict welfare or attach certain conditions. In Germany, if you get welfare for unemployment (aka ALG 2), you need to get after a certain time at least a small paying part-time job (even one of those jobs for which they pay you only a Euro per hour) to keep receiving ALG 2 while you're looking for a decent paying full time position, otherwise you'll lose that benefit.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:33 pm



Quoting Lincoln (Reply 17):
When I was attending college, in one of my political science classes, the subject of independent retire accounts was debated. One of the people presenting (what I would label, at least) the liberal side of the issue basically said in as many words, "I'm too incompetent to manage my own investments, so no one else should be able to either!" -- I was floored. Since then, in paying attention to the arguments againtst it, that's basically what everyone is saying, just wordsmithing their way around calling people incompetent. Fine. Have some baseline government-managed retirement program available (not required) for those who really feel that the government has a better idea about how to plan for their retirement than they do.

I don't think anyone's arguing that IRAs should be abolished; rather, the idea behind Social Security is to have one source of retirement income that is guaranteed (in investment terms, has close to zero risk associated with it). This protects people who think they are good investors but are not (and there's a bunch of them out there!), as well as those who might fall victim to the element of chance that is present even in a good portfolio. No need for wordsmithing - there are incompetent (as well as unlucky) investors out there, and since the government can't identify them ahead of time, the best strategy is to provide a safety net for everyone.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
lincoln
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:34 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 29):
It's unreasonable to hold a person accountable for things they cannot control.

So, explain to me, which part of

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
which truthfully is not used by people to "avoid work" but by poor women who've had like five kids and have no husbands

can't be controlled? The having sex with random men without being married? The choice not to use birth control? Not getting a job?

Unless the woman is the Virgin Mary I fail to see how having 5 kids without a husband(s) to support them and/or child support is anything but a lapse in personal accountability.

Lincoln
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fr8mech
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:14 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 30):
If that's so, restrict welfare or attach certain conditions. In Germany, if you get welfare for unemployment (aka ALG 2), you need to get after a certain time at least a small paying part-time job (even one of those jobs for which they pay you only a Euro per hour) to keep receiving ALG 2 while you're looking for a decent paying full time position, otherwise you'll lose that benefit.

I have absolutely no problem with that, so long as you have already paid into the unemployment insurance program and there is adequate oversight. Back when I was growing up, there was no real oversight. Now, with the welfare to work program, I believe there is. Truthfully, I don't know. But there are plenty out there that would rather scam their way through the system than work.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 29):
It's unreasonable to hold a person accountable for things they cannot control.

Wrong, because we have control over more than you can imagine. Let me ask you this: Do you have an emergency fund? Do you have an adequate food supply in your house? Do you have a flashlight? Do you use birth control? Did you or are you getting an education? Do you work to make yourself better?

All these choices, and a multitude of others, we make everyday help us control our environment. So, when the unthinkable happens, you have some modicum of preparation.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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Blackbird
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:43 pm

I think the attitude that a lot of conservatives have is rather heartless. It's very easy for a person with good intentions to dig themselves into a hole they can't get out of without some help. Charities would be preferable, but it can't always cut it.

The attitude a lot of conservatives have is this "every man for himself, if someone ends up in a mess, f*ck 'em, let him get himself out of it, but we ain't gonna help him -- not my tax dollars". It's the kind of attitude you'd expect to see from a society that lives in the wild. Not a well developed society that lives in nice towns and cities.

If you have a society that doesn't help it's people out, then what's the point of the society? Now I'm not saying the government should support everything -- but people do make innocent but stupid mistakes and the ability to be able to get out of them is kind of a good thing.


Andrea Kent
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:50 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 34):
not my tax dollars

That's right, not with my tax dollars. It's not up to government to bail people out. My family gives over 10% of our income to various charities, including our church. I get to choose which charities I support, not the government.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
MDorBust
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:51 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 34):
The attitude a lot of conservatives have is this "every man for himself, if someone ends up in a mess,If you pop out five children without family or financial support, f*ck 'emyou, let himYou get himselfyourself out of it, but we ain't gonna help himyou -- not my tax dollars".

FTFY

And if you think I'm going to be bulled into being ashamed of holding that position, think again
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Blackbird
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spendin

Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:05 am

Fr8mech,

I'm glad you contribute to charities. But what do you do when charities can't cut it?


MDorBust,
I never expected to shame you, or expected you to be ashamed of holding that position. I just think your position's wrong  


Andrea Kent

[Edited 2008-01-09 16:06:09]
 
Blackbird
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:10 am

While I'm at it,

Only a few liberals here have expressed their opinions, any moderate or liberal minded people have anything else to say?
 
lincoln
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:38 am



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 34):
It's the kind of attitude you'd expect to see from a society that lives in the wild. Not a well developed society that lives in nice towns and cities.

No, it's the kind of attitude you expect from people who work hard for their money and resent the government forcing them to spend money in ways that they feel is ineffective, supporting programs that do not comport with their personal belief systems and a whole measure of other things.

I can assure you that the availibility of welfare has nothing to do with "nice towns and cities". And lets make one thing clear, I'm not generally against paying for public works projects or other civic improvement projects whose benefits are available for the citizens as a whole. As you may have devined by this point, I am deeply and fundamentally opposed to programs that have the effect of redistributing wealth.

If anything, I would argue that these programs act as double demototivators -- many those receiving those benefits, particularly in innercities and ghettos (hardly "nice towns" if you've spent any time there) feel that they're entitled to them, and make no more effort than is required to keep receiving them. On the other side of the fence, people such as myself are disheartened to see over twenty-five cents of every dollar I earn being spent, in part, on ineffective programs with inadaquate controls... But hey, it could be worse. My dad sees less than $0.50 of every $1.00 he earns. At least I'm not being screwed quite as badly for my success.

It seems that you have the view that the money going to these programs as if it just came out of thin air and "hey, it doesn't hurt anyone, so why the hell not?" -- you are failing to acknowledge that the money that is paying for these programs is comming from the pockets of hard-working individuals. Robbing Peter to Pay Paulett and her 17 welfare babies.

You also don't explain why if you get yourself into a hole, why it should be my responsibility, and not your responsibility to get yourself out of a hole. If charity isn't enough? Tough. You aren't entitled to charity, it's something that people give as good will; you shouldn't rely on that -- or taxpayer funded benefits to fix your screwups.

And you still haven't answered the question I posed in reply 32.

Lincoln
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Blackbird
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:16 am

Lincoln,

What about people who work hard for their money and don't want that money spent on government programs that could be used say to violate personal privacy? Isn't there a problem with that too? And yet conservatives feel free to use their tax dollars in that area.

In response to Reply 32

I'd have to say in those particular circumstances, most people have good judgement, but there are some people with poor judgement, who despite this, are good people -- they have good intentions but with poor judgement can case dig themselves into a pit. Sometimes the pit is so big they can't get out.


Andrea Kent
 
lincoln
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:32 am



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 40):
Isn't there a problem with that too?

Absolutely. The Patriot Act scares the shit out of me. I think many or most of our national "security" programs are ill advised and/or poorly executed. I believe the war in Iraq was an ill advised colonization attempt by a cowboy president*, though I also subscribe to the 'you break it, you buy it' philosophy. (I.e. since we stuck our collective noses in and devistated a country, it's our responsibility to restore order and leave in the country in at least as good as a condition as it was before we got involved).

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 40):
And yet conservatives feel free to use their tax dollars in that area.

This is where you're wrong. The current Republican party feel[s] free to use tax dollars; it's gotten to the point where fiscal/social conservatives and the Republican party have very little in common.

For example, I say I'm a Republican only because on the national policy front the they're the lesser of two evils, IMHO, not because my views as a fiscal conservative or social liberal are alligned with those of the party. Among other examples (and potentially opening a can of worms), The Republican Party's positions on gun control and abortion rights are very different than my own [to my mother's chagrin -- we've had many a heated debate about the Gun control issue, specifically the phrase "well regulated malitia"] and I would have a very hard time voting for a Republican canidate with strong positions on these two subjects.

Lincoln
*- Full disclosure: I did vote for him; since I lived in California at the time, my vote didn't matter. And I think Gore would have been just as bad [another lesser of two evils thing... It sucks living with this two-party system]
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2H4
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:53 am



Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 35):
It's not up to government to bail people out.

I agree. The government has their hands full bailing airlines out.  Wink

2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
Blackbird
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:29 am

Fr8mech,

Well then if charitable organizations, and altruistic acts by people can't cut it -- then what happens? In my opinion, when those fail, somebody's gotta do it...


Andrea Kent
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:49 am

Andrea,

At some point people have to take responsibility for their action or in-actions. Yes, some good folks make mistakes and dig themselves into a hole. Why is it my responsibility to dig them out via a program that I have no say in? And yes, some folks get devastated by natural disasters, is that my responsibility? Did they prepare? Did they have insurance?

Let me give you an example: If my home is robbed, is it the government's responsibility to make me whole? No, it is the insurance company's responsibility. What if I don't have insurance? That's a risk I take. Natural disasters are just robbery on a massive scale. It is up to the government to provide the basic services, but it should be up to the people to deal with their individual issues.

If you haven't guessed it yet, my problem is with the government freely giving my money to those less fortunate than me. It should be my decision who gets my money, not the Federal Government's. I say give the welfare/social/entitlement programs over to the Several States and let the populace decide what they should fund through the redistribution of wealth. If the citizens of a state want to fund these programs, let them do it. Let it be their choice.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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cfalk
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:22 pm



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 31):
the idea behind Social Security is to have one source of retirement income that is guaranteed

The idea behind SS is to keep you off the street - to provide a bare minimum income after retirement that would keep a roof over your head and food in your belly - in the poor part of town. If you want to maintain your standard of living after retirement, travel, play Golf etc, it's up to you to supply the bulk of those savings with a company pension plan plus an IRA.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 34):
I think the attitude that a lot of conservatives have is rather heartless. It's very easy for a person with good intentions to dig themselves into a hole they can't get out of without some help.

And we are willing to help - for a while. But the idea of people spending years on welfare is offensive. They are leeches on society. We don't mind helping those in need financially but they have to show that they are working to get their act together in return.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
RJdxer
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RE: Conservatives - Tax-Dollars / National Spending

Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:21 pm

Just tax the crap out of the wealthy, they won't miss it. And while you're at it, go after those corporations, they should all be taxed down to non profit status.
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