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LHStarAlliance
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Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:34 pm

Hi guys ,

Just got Post on the Bundeswehr , I'll have to go to the Bundewehr after high school .

I always thought of going to social service ,but I wouldn't mind going for 1 year to Afghanistan and serve , I'm sure it's a great experience . Is it possible to make a contract and go just for one year because after that I would go straight to University?

My Grandfather was Officer in the Bundeswehr so I've some ties to the military , he just dies 2 years ago .


Has anybody gone ? To Afghanistan ? How is it ?

Would be nice if I get some advice , no better place for me as asking that in A.net as here are some guys who went to the middle east

Constantin

[Edited 2008-01-09 08:40:48]
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aloges
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Servic

Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:48 pm

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
I wouldn't mind going for 1 year to Afghanistan and serve

Do yourself a favour and rethink that. AFAIK, most soldiers hardly if ever actually leave the camp they're in and solely provide support for those on patrol.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
Is it possible to make a contract and go just for one year

You mean on a mission abroad? No idea, but regular service is nine months. Nine months in crumbling barracks with out-of-order gear, I might add.

edit: You have to complete basic training (Grundausbildung) anyway, that together with mission-specific training will already take up most of one year.

[Edited 2008-01-09 08:51:46]
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BREmer
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Servic

Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:53 pm

I don't think it's possible to serve in Afghanistan right from the start. You have to do your Grundwehrdienst first, and that takes place at your local boot camp and not at the Hindukusch. After that, you can sign for a timespan of say 2 years and serve abroad. If that's what you're longing for then have fun. I preferred the civil service: more money, no getting up before 5 am, not stuck out in the boonies with my uniform on.

Lukas
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:04 pm



Quoting BREmer (Reply 2):
I don't think it's possible to serve in Afghanistan right from the start. You have to do your Grundwehrdienst first,

I know that , I meant after the Grundwehrdiesnt

Quoting BREmer (Reply 2):
timespan of say 2 years

too long

Quoting BREmer (Reply 2):
If that's what you're longing for then have fun. I preferred the civil service: more money, no getting up before 5 am, not stuck out in the boonies with my uniform on.

Well it won't hurt me doing this hard livef or 1 year before I start 35 years of normal live , hopefully as Diplomat .

I'm speaking very often about how bad war and so on is , and so if I want to keep speaking about that my whole live I think having done that experience is good and can bring me forward , I would never go to the Hindukusch for fun , though it can be fun .

Constantin
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Toast
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:21 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
Just got Post on the Bundeswehr , I'll have to go to the Bundewehr after high school .



 Wink

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
Do yourself a favour and rethink that

 checkmark 

Got the same type of letter from my beloved national armed forces when I was 18. I left the country a few days before my first scheduled appearance at the recruitment commission. I never looked back. Screw the army.
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pelican
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Servic

Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:22 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
I always thought of going to social service ,but I wouldn't mind going for 1 year to Afghanistan and serve , I'm sure it's a great experience . Is it possible to make a contract and go just for one year because after that I would go straight to University?

Link to Bundeswehr

pelican
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:22 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 4):
Got the same type of letter from my beloved national armed forces when I was 18. I left the country a few days before my first scheduled appearance at the recruitment commission. I never looked back. Screw the army.

Yea be sure I'll do so , that's why I'm asking . If I don't want I'll do social service .
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pelican
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Servic

Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:37 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 6):
Yea be sure I'll do so , that's why I'm asking . If I don't want I'll do social service .

Nowadays none of both is more likely...
But if you really want you should try it. I never served in the military - social service for me (waste of time) so I can't comment from my own experience...

pelican
 
mhodgson
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:40 pm

Out of interest, if someone became a German citizen, would they be obliged to do national service?

I have a friend who is trying to avoid Swiss national service by living in Germany and commuting!
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pelican
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:42 pm



Quoting Mhodgson (Reply 8):
Out of interest, if someone became a German citizen, would they be obliged to do national service?

Yes, if you're fit and have the right age.

pelican
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Servic

Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:44 pm



Quoting Pelican (Reply 7):
social service

yeah social service sucks ... and it's difficult to get a "job" out of Germany for example as Helper in South Africa or India , thats what I always wanted , I'ld prefer this to the Bundeswehr , but I'ld rather go to the Bundeswehr instead of wasting 12 months with some old people in an "Altersheim" , i've nothing against people who like that but I'ld get sick doing that , so I'll have to look out for an org that brings me to Africa , South America or Asia instead of going to the Social Service in Germany which sucks , if this doesn't work I would go to the Bundeswehr as second option .
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MDorBust
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:56 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 3):
I'm speaking very often about how bad war and so on is , and so if I want to keep speaking about that my whole live I think having done that experience is good and can bring me forward

Wait... so you want to get into the military service and get sent to a war zone (for as short a span as possible) to reinforce a pre-concieved notion that the military sucks?


Seriously, do the other members of the military a favor and possibly save their lives by not going.
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wrighbrothers
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:03 pm

Firstly, do what you want to do, don't feel you have to do military service, nor let others talk you out of it. The army is a great experiance, you'll meet lots of friends, see a 'different' side of life and experiance stuff others can only dream of.

However, there's hard work and lots of bad times to pay for this.
Here's the bad side:
You'll spend lots of time marching and being shouted, you'll have to get used to getting up early, eating quickly, doing everything quickly, polishing (and no dobut bulling) boots, regular uniform, room and kit inspections, get used to taking all sorts of orders, lots of them will seem stupid or pointless but you won't be able to voice your opinion, you'll have to work as a team with people you don't know, don't like or have something against, get used to having very long, physicaly and mentally tiring days, living in barracks with other guys who will mess around, steal your kit while it's in the drying room, do stupid things that gets everyone into trouble or earns you lots of marching and lots of work out in the field.
In the field, you'll have real bad times, take it from me, you'll be wetter, colder and more depressed than you've ever been before and yet will have to put up with it all, you'll put up your own shelter in 2mins (atleast that's the British Army standard), cook your ration packs while either being on sentry duty or cleaning yourself, your boot, your kit, applying new camoflauge cream and cleaning your rifle, all while being freezing cold, wet and general un-happy without anyone who gives you orders, that's how it is, you'll have to take orders and do lots of things you don't really want to do, walk just about everywhere and generaly be cold and uncomfortable all the time, it's not usualy that enjoyable during basic training because you're treated like a baby.
As I said, you'll be amazed how bad thngs can be, how wet, cold, angry and depressed you can get and you will wish you hadn't signed up when you get your head down at night. Generaly, be prepared for lots of wishing you were at home, running, physical training, being shouted at, taking orders, saluting and general crap like that.


However, in saying all this stuff, it's not all bad, and good times ARE good times.

There's nothing like military life outside the military, you'll meet mates who are mates for life.
You see, because you go through so much together, all the good times, the bad times, the wet, the dry, the rough and the smooth, toghether as a team, you become almost like brothers, these guys will back you up no matter what, whether it be in the field with them covering your back while on a patrol, or out on the town on a friday night when you get into a fight with someone, your mates you make will stick up for you, defend you and be genraly there for you, and they're usualy mates for life.

Then there's the comradship, the times when, no matter how cold or wet you are, someone will crack a joke and make you laugh, or when you're feeling down and a mate comes along and picks you right back up just by saying a few words, or when you're doing some boring job when you'd rather be at home and a mate comes along and you do the job together and just chat about the football last weekend, or girls etc and makes it worthwhile.

But the main thing is, the experiance, at the time, life in the field is bad, sometimes real bad, but when you get back, you'll be out at the pub one night with a bunch of mates, and you'll suddenly have someone say 'ohh man, you remember when we were out in the field that night...' and out come the stories, they will flow like a river take my word for it !
You'll laugh off even the worst of experiances once they're over and take it all in your stride and leave it to the history books as 'I remember when'.
You'll always have that bit in your mind where you're standing next to some whinning civilian who complains about how cold or wet it is and you'll just think to yourself 'haha, this is nothing, I remember when...'

Other experiances that civilians could dream of ? you'll fly on helicopters, drive around in APCs, all sorts of trucks and other vehicles, storm buildings, take part in massive exercise along-side tanks, jumping out the back of APCs, fly into a firefight in the back of a helicopter, shoot machine guns, throw grendades all over the place, have fighter jets zoom up overhead and do the whole camoflauging up, sneaky sneaky stuff. It's all good fun..

You'll learn how to live in the field, take care of yourself, what TRUE friends are, you'll learn that you CAN TAKE IT, you'll do stuff you would have never thought possible before, you'll be mentaly tougher, physicaly stronger and an overall better person. You'll realise you're better than that civilian standing next to you because you've been there, done that and got through it.

Civilians who've never done military stuff won't understand what it's like, it's hard to describe to an 'outsider', because all people see is the marching around and being shouted at, or just see the guys out in the Middle East fighting.
What they don't see, is that while you're being shouted at, you and your mates are creasing up on the inside because last week your mate made a really bad joke about him wearing his wife's panties and getting up to certain sexual acts with the officer ! Trust me, you will have plenty of good laughs
They don't see that while you're polishing boots, you're all having a good laugh and a chat, having the usual friendly banter of taking the mickey out of people because they support a certain football team, the usual barrack block fun of throwing people in lockers and pushing them down the stairs, having Roll matt fights (definately one to do !) or taking each other down in the barrack blocks, realsing some of that adrenaline.
They don't see that, some people would say all that kind of stuff is immature or 'it's all good fun unless you're the one in that locker' but they don't understand, that guy in the locker was the one who sujested they throw him down the stairs ! because it's all in the name of fun, and at the end of the day you go through so much stuff together, see all kinds of things, the only way you keep sane is by acting like you were back at school, the playing football, messing about and general fun !
That's how military life is different, there's the serious side, but the fun side too, you'll have more fun in one day that a boring office worker will ever have. You'll have the most laughs, hear the most jokes and have the most immature but damn good fun ever in the military, it's part of the life style.

So, good luck, just do as your told and ENJOY yourself, it's all worth it and it's all a good experiance when you look back at it, you'll be able to be like grandad and tell your grandchildren stories of 'when I was in the army'
You'll walk just that bit taller, and feel a hell of a lot prouder than other people, you'll sudenly realise that it wasn't all bad and that the mates you made, the things you did and saw were more than worth it. If it wasn't worth it, nobody would do it !


Afghanistan is, like all other tours of duty, dependant on what kind of unit you're in. Being in the infantry isn't fun out there, it's hard work, it's risky and you jsut want to get home. However, if you're one of the supportist units like the Logistics corps, spending your days out in Land Rovers or on base, it's much more fun, there's the same kind of childish fun and games but it's very serious.
Want my advice ? Don't be too keen to go there, it's very hot, very tough and hard work, but don't be against it, you probably won't have a choice if you get told to go, and it's 6 months of stories and experiance to bring home and tell the grandchildren about, and a medal on the chest. You didn't join the army to sit in barrack all day did you ?

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dl021
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:19 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
Hi guys ,

Just got Post on the Bundeswehr , I'll have to go to the Bundewehr after high school

Good luck and remember that details matter, and the three cornerstones of any successful military career/tour of duty are marksmanship, knowing your job and physical fitness. I think this will open you up to new horizons and understanding.

Quoting Toast (Reply 4):
Got the same type of letter from my beloved national armed forces when I was 18. I left the country a few days before my first scheduled appearance at the recruitment commission. I never looked back. Screw the army.

That's, in my humble opinion, a crappy attitude to have.....let me make sure I understand your position....do you think it's ok to accept the freedoms given to you by your passport and the country which affords you protection and think it's stupid and unecessary to honor your obligation to serve that nation in the effort to protect and preserve it?
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dl021
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:26 pm

MD has a point if he's reading you correctly.

Toast...in thinking through my earlier post...if I was a citizen of that nation I'd at least appreciate you left...as long as you stopped taking/accepting their social services and protections.

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 12):
do what you want to do, don't feel you have to do military service, nor let others talk you out of it. The army is a great experiance, you'll meet lots of friends, see a 'different' side of life and experiance stuff others can only dream of.

applause for the post.
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LTU932
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:58 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
Is it possible to make a contract and go just for one year because after that I would go straight to University?

While you're at it, why not go to the Bundeswehruniversität while you're at it? You could even make training to become an officer later on if you think about commiting yourself to the Army in the medium term.
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:02 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 13):
That's, in my humble opinion, a crappy attitude to have.....

Why?

Quoting DL021 (Reply 13):
....do you think it's ok to accept the freedoms given to you by your passport and the country which affords you protection and think it's stupid and unecessary to honor your obligation to serve that nation in the effort to protect and preserve it?

I think it's perfectly OK. We all have different set of talent and skills. Military service requires certain skillset and attitude, those who don't have it will never make a good soldier. So why bother? Force somebody unwilling to serve, you'll just waste his time and the taxpayer's money. Not to mention endangering himself and others in combat. Mandatory military service is obsolete, it should be abolished.
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HT
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:03 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
Just got Post on the Bundeswehr , I'll have to go to the Bundewehr after high school .

Is this just a general draft note or does it already indicate what kind of service you are foreseen to do ?
Does it state a date ?

If you really do not want to go, you should have a good chance to get out of it.
I was doing my compulsory 15 months (which I voluntarily extended to 2 years) in the (West-) German Army back in 1988 to 1990. I had a task performing Electronic Intelligence (ELINT) form a fixed base.
My 3 months of initial training mainly were task-spedific classroom eduction; the real military stuff was indispersed throughout that time - and we went camping for less than one week.

Once on the final job, it was technically demanding but in a relaxed mood. Working changing shifts in the first time was hard on the body, but after a while I moved to dayshift. There I could stay away from most military stuff if I did not want to participate. If the overall situation allowed, we went swimming each summer afternoon, joining the different shifts in their official sports program. Going out for shooting was optional; a 25-kilometre march with light backpack was compulsory each year but this was no problem for me. However, those relaxing times also turned into times where we voluntarily worked for 10 or 12 hours w/o compensation if the situation required attendance ... As in every job it was *give and take*.

Bottomline:
Not every job in the military service (Army, Navy or Air Force) necessarily mean that one will be a fighting soldier crawling through the mud at all times.
A collegue of mine was drafted into the Navy and spent a good portion of his 12 or 15 months onboard a ship which then called different ports in Europe and the Carribean, IIRC.
I would not want to miss the 2 years I spent in the Army, but then these were rather untypical.
-HT
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Toast
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Servic

Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:26 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 13):
do you think it's ok to accept the freedoms given to you by your passport and the country which affords you protection

My passport gives me nothing but shit. Stupid visa requirements, discrimination, prejudice. Can't wait to get rid of that piece of crap and get myself a normal citizenship.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 13):
the country which affords you protection

What's this idea about a country "protecting" me? Protecting from what? If you mean the police, that's what taxes are for.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 13):
think it's stupid and unecessary to honor your obligation to serve that nation in the effort to protect and preserve it?

Yes, because I have no obligation toward any country. Certainly not toward my native country, in which I have only lived a few years, the worst years of my life.

The number of people who are full of "honor your country" would shrink dramatically if they HAD to do military service in third-world conditions.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 14):
Toast...in thinking through my earlier post...if I was a citizen of that nation I'd at least appreciate you left...as long as you stopped taking/accepting their social services and protections.

I have. Not that that country has any real social services to speak of. And you sure under-estimate my friends and family there, who, believe it or not, don't judge me on my attitude toward military service.
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:33 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 18):
My passport gives me nothing but shit. Stupid visa requirements, discrimination, prejudice. Can't wait to get rid of that piece of crap and get myself a normal citizenship.

Wow, that makes us really curious where you are from. But no worries, you're not alone. I'm in the same situation with my first citizenship.

Quoting Toast (Reply 18):
The number of people who are full of "honor your country" would shrink dramatically if they HAD to do military service in third-world conditions.

 checkmark 

Not only that. In commie countries life in military was on par with the life in prison.
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dl021
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:50 pm



Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 16):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 13):
That's, in my humble opinion, a crappy attitude to have.....

Why?

Because if the price demanded of a citizen of a society is military service in exchange for a secure place to live, and a government that will come get you if you land in trouble not of your own creation (which Belgium has done on multiple occasions) then you ought to pay it if you expect those services. Plus....the price of freedom is most definitley eternal vigilance. Others have carried the burden as the cost of being a citizen, why shouldn't he?

Quoting Toast (Reply 18):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 13):
the country which affords you protection

What's this idea about a country "protecting" me? Protecting from what? If you mean the police, that's what taxes are for.

See above, but to clarify....you have lived under the protection of a NATO member nation for your entire life. You've enjoyed freedoms less than a third of the world will ever get. No one comes after you for voicing opinions (as they certainly would in many actual third world nations) and you've got mobility and economic stability (comparatively). All that was defended by the nations military (in conjunction with others). Your nation has a small population and an all volunteer military wouldn't produce the size force required to participate effectively in NATO so continued conscription was the answer.

Quoting Toast (Reply 18):
Yes, because I have no obligation toward any country.

Morally you certainly do. For all the reasons listed above. If not military service then some sort of public service if that's an option as in Germany. It's the contract your society has with itself. Everyone needs to do their share.
Is your society responsible for whatever troubles you had growing up? Actual question there...no rhetoric on my part.

Quoting Toast (Reply 18):
The number of people who are full of "honor your country" would shrink dramatically if they HAD to do military service in third-world conditions.

I've been to Marche les dames....and Belgian Parakommando school.....and I've been to Honduras and El Salvador to work with their militaries.....it's definitely not third world conditions in the Belgian army. It's certainly more spartan than perhaps you're used to, but not 3rd world. Even if it was....are you afraid to face the same rigors of your fellow citizens?

Quoting Toast (Reply 18):
you sure under-estimate my friends and family there, who, believe it or not, don't judge me on my attitude toward military service.

Not at all. I was offering my opinion. I wouldn't dream of guessing what they think. I apologize if I seemed to do so, but there may be translatory/idiomatic issues with the phrase "if I were a citizen of your country" ... literally...If I..personally...was a citizen. I know how I feel about the draft dodgers from the Vietnam era who came back, and those that stayed. At least the objectors that stayed held some honor. I can respect that part of their action.


Oh, and if translatory isn't a word, let it be one from this point forward!  Wink
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:58 pm

DL021, I have a feeling that TOAST wouldn't have a problem with service in the Belgian military. He's apparently not a Belgian citizen.

I don't question decision. I've opted for civil service too. Otherwise I'd be now a reserve captain of the Three Mig Air Force.
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Toast
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:11 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 20):
you have lived under the protection of a NATO member nation for your entire life.

No, I have not. I'm not Belgian. I've lived in many countries. I've even lived behind the Iron Curtain for a few years, "protected" by the Red Army.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 20):
You've enjoyed freedoms less than a third of the world will ever get.

Nope.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 20):
Your nation has a small population

See above... I'm not Belgian, dammit...

Quoting DL021 (Reply 20):
Your nation has a small population and an all volunteer military wouldn't produce the size force required to participate effectively in NATO

...and er, Belgian military service is 100% voluntary...

Quoting DL021 (Reply 20):
If not military service then some sort of public service if that's an option as in Germany.

No, I did not have that option.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 20):
Is your society responsible for whatever troubles you had growing up?

Partly, yes.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 20):
I apologize if I seemed to do so, but there may be translatory/idiomatic issues with the phrase "if I were a citizen of your country" ... literally...If I..personally...was a citizen.

Ah, OK... no sweat  Smile

Quoting DL021 (Reply 20):
Oh, and if translatory isn't a word, let it be one from this point forward!

It is a word.  Smile
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dl021
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:14 pm

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 21):
DL021, I have a feeling that TOAST wouldn't have a problem with service in the Belgian military. He's apparently not a Belgian citizen.

He pays his taxes to Belgium and spoke of a Belgian PM as a leader from his nation he'd claim to be most admirable....that's what I'm basing this on.. If he's not Belge then I may be incorrect about the service standards of his obligatory service. It wouldn't change the point of obligation to the society.

I'd really like to know if his society is the root of his troubles. Perhaps he's a citizen of Zimbabwe, the Congo or Rwanda, in which case I can certainly understand leaving there rather than serving in the military there. I also pointed out that leaving was the only honorable thing to do in the circumstances. If you choose to not be participate then you should get out of the way and not take up resources. If he's not Belgian, yet pays his taxes there and they don't require foreign nationals to serve then he's living within their societies demands and contributing what they ask.

Toast...are you Belgian as your flag indicates or something else? Or is it complicated by some additional factor (such as expat parents who stayed after decolonization for example)?

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 21):
I don't question decision. I've opted for civil service too.

Since that was an option for you then you served your society in an accepted manner and paid your dues. I've got zero problem with that.....now...I make fun of my German or French friends who opt for civil service (although the Froggies have gone to all volunteer for military) but that's all in good fun. It's about paying into the society in the demanded manner in return for the services you accept.

[Edited 2008-01-09 12:18:07]
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Toast
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:22 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 23):
Toast...are you Belgian as your flag indicates or something else?

I'm "something" else. In the legal sense, that is. I don't feel attached to any particular society - although I happen to like Belgium very much - and don't disclose my citizenship unless legally required to do so.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 23):
Perhaps he's a citizen of Zimbabwe, the Congo or Rwanda, in which case I can certainly understand leaving there rather than serving in the military there.

None of the above, but those are by far not the only countries that suck.

About the whole being loyal to the country you were born in... As if it was any choice of yours. Do you seriously expect people to love and to serve organizations they were signed up for against their will? I don't.
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:25 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 23):
I make fun of my German or French friends who opt for civil service

Well, I don't know what would be a better base for funny remarks - civil service or being a reservist of the Slovak Air Force...

Quoting DL021 (Reply 23):
Since that was an option for you then you served your society in an accepted manner and paid your dues.

It was something entirely new at the time, but people eventually became used to it. But it's gone now - the Slovak Army is all pro since 2004. And I don't live there anymore.
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:29 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 24):
don't disclose my citizenship

You gave us a quite good guidance here:

Quoting Toast (Reply 22):
I've even lived behind the Iron Curtain for a few years

That narrows it down quite well. Especially the part about protection by the Red Army.
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Toast
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:32 pm



Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 26):
That narrows it down quite well.

Not really, because I had to relocate several times due to my father working for an international corporations. Bad luck got him (and me) posted to Eastern Europe at the end of the Cold War... The "protection" was ironic...
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dl021
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:49 pm

Having communicated with Toast via PM I think there is more understanding on my part for his personal situation. But I don't think that his situation would apply to the majority of draft dodgers in nations where the citizens enjoy liberty and economic freedom.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 25):
Well, I don't know what would be a better base for funny remarks - civil service or being a reservist of the Slovak Air Force...

I'd think that the Slovak Air Force, but I can't remember which one of the two divorcees got the fighters.....  Wink

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 25):
It was something entirely new at the time, but people eventually became used to it. But it's gone now - the Slovak Army is all pro since 2004. And I don't live there anymore.

And you did what was called for. Simple as that.

Quoting Toast (Reply 24):
None of the above, but those are by far not the only countries that suck.

True.

Quoting Toast (Reply 24):
About the whole being loyal to the country you were born in... As if it was any choice of yours

I don't think that you owe any nation loyalty unless it is the product of democratic efforts and it represents a govt by for and of the people. Loyalty is a two way street.

Quoting Toast (Reply 24):

About the whole being loyal to the country you were born in... As if it was any choice of yours. Do you seriously expect people to love and to serve organizations they were signed up for against their will?

I expect no one to love their organization unless they find reason for it. Serve the organization? No...you serve your country. If you don't then you should leave. You did that, and it seems at some risk. Your situation is different than the kid being called to duty in Germany where he's living in a very democratic republic and enjoying all the liberty he can probably stand.
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:50 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 4):
beloved national armed forces

Sorry, just wonder what beloved army that may have been. It must have been in the 80ies, and countries with professional armies are out of the question. But there is still quite a number, with Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, Egypt, India, Australia and many others coming to my mind
-

Quoting Mhodgson (Reply 8):
Out of interest, if someone became a German citizen, would they be obliged to do national service?
--
I have a friend who is trying to avoid Swiss national service by living in Germany and commuting!

-
I can say it the other way round. If somebody younger than 28 years becomes a Swiss citizen, he has to go. And as soon as your friend gets older than 28 years he can return, but should be careful due to possible military taxes levied onto him.
-
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Servic

Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:05 pm

Hey thank you very much for this great Text !

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 12):
Here's the bad side:



Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 12):
You'll spend lots of time marching and being shouted, you'll have to get used to getting up early, eating quickly, doing everything quickly, polishing (and no dobut bulling) boots, regular uniform, room and kit inspections, get used to taking all sorts of orders, lots of them will seem stupid or pointless but you won't be able to voice your opinion, you'll have to work as a team with people you don't know, don't like or have something against, get used to having very long, physicaly and mentally tiring days, living in barracks with other guys who will mess around, steal your kit while it's in the drying room, do stupid things that gets everyone into trouble or earns you lots of marching and lots of work out in the field.

Well in that moment you think it's bad , but I'm sure at the end of all that you'll be very proud of yourself and you'll be as you say mentally and physically stronger , and thats a present for live , I'm sure you'll deal much better with dangerous and hard situations .

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 12):
you'll be mentally tougher, physically stronger and an overall better person. You'll realise you're better than that civilian standing next to you because you've been there, done that and got through it.

Very good point , as I don't want to stay my whole love in the army I do want to say : "I did it and I lived it " , and in my opinion , to go to the Army is a strong believing into the own constitution , of course just if the Government acts like this .

I'll be very very careful on the Afghanistan topic , how the war has been managed was completely wrong and bad done ,
though I'ld love to have that experience .

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 15):

While you're at it, why not go to the Bundeswehruniversit�t while you're at it? You could even make training to become an officer later on if you think about commiting yourself to the Army in the medium term.

no as said I want to enter into the Ausw�rtiges Amt , and be diplomat that's how I see it what would fulfill my live .
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:06 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 28):
I can't remember which one of the two divorcees got the fighters.....

I guess both, however there was a time when Slovakia had ONE airworthy Mig 23. I guess now they have 3 of them.
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LAXspotter
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:14 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 4):
never looked back. Screw the army.

hahhaa, I dont wants to a tool for a Politicans goals either.

Quoting Toast (Reply 24):
About the whole being loyal to the country you were born in... As if it was any choice of yours. Do you seriously expect people to love and to serve organizations they were signed up for against their will? I don't.

Good Point

Quoting DL021 (Reply 28):
draft dodgers in nations where the citizens enjoy liberty and economic freedom.

I dont believe in killing, simple.
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Fiatstilojtd
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:19 pm

Didn't Toast say that he was Romanian in the past....or do I mix something up here ?
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Servic

Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:27 pm

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 32):
I dont believe in killing, simple.

my biggest problem with this topic and I know many will laugh about it , then I ask myself : what would have happened if Americans and Britons had this "fear" in the WW2 , we would still be sitting here in Germany with the Nazi regime , so I just believe in Military Force if it makes Human Rights
and it is in common sense with the law of nations , being a member of the left party in Germany I do agree on the most things like being against the Enduring Freedom , but I do not agree on the argument of getting all troops out as soon as possible , now we have an responsibility of getting Afghanistan in order .

And I'll serve with Pride if this is the number one Aim of the international community , and we have to keep in minds that the only way to stop the Taliban is by winning hearths and brains of that people , the military has a very important charge on this .

[Edited 2008-01-09 13:30:40]
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wrighbrothers
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:36 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 30):
Hey thank you very much for this great Text !

(presuming this was aimed at me) No worries ! I beleive in informing people and showing both sides of the story, I mean I might be slightly bias but I beleive everyone should make a well informed desicion in life and not everyone is suited to every job such as the military.
I'd say go for the army if you want to, do you minimum service, and if you like it, stay on, if not, no harm done and it'll only be a positive.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 30):
Well in that moment you think it's bad , but I'm sure at the end of all that you'll be very proud of yourself and you'll be as you say mentally and physically stronger , and thats a present for live , I'm sure you'll deal much better with dangerous and hard situations .

Oh ofcourse, as I said, you laugh it all off onces it's over, usualy over a drink with the same people who went through it with you, just the way of dealing with things ! I must say, it's hard for me to describe how proud I feel when I march to the music knowing I've achieved this level of discipline, where I can march like a true soldier, rather than just ramble along like a civi on the street. When employers look at a CV, having military service on it is nothing but a positive, it shows discipline, respect, the ability to work as a team, ability to follow rules, take orders and be profesional about things. Mental toughness is ofcourse a positive, infact I'd say it's a better quality than physical toughness, you can run as far as you like but it's no use if you break the first time you get told off. This ofcourse means you can as you say, deal with difficult situations, and you find ex servicemen and servicewomen, are better trained at dealing with problems under pressure than their civilian counterparts, and get things done quickly, in the army, there's no time for a 10 minute tea break and a walk to the shops, it gets done there and then.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 30):
Very good point , as I don't want to stay my whole love in the army I do want to say : "I did it and I lived it " , and in my opinion , to go to the Army is a strong believing into the own constitution , of course just if the Government acts like this .

I'll be very very careful on the Afghanistan topic , how the war has been managed was completely wrong and bad done ,
though I'ld love to have that experience .

Yes, lots of people in our army do their minimum 4yrs and leave to go to a civilian job and simply did the army to 'do their bit' or just for the adventure or experiance, so you won't be alone.
Afghanistan is like every other conflict, it's miss managed and far from perfect, but that's war !, there is no such thing as a well planned or perfect war and it's ultimately the soldiers who pay for that, not the civilians or politicians who are the ones who spend most of their time moaning about it, not that I'm saying they shouldn't, I'm just saying it's not them that knows what it's truly like.
However, being in an operation is indeed an experiance and one lots of soldiers look forward to, you'll find soldiers are bored when they aren't on opperations, it means you and your buddies have a real link, you become a family for the time you're out there because they are litteraly all you have, there's no going home at weekends or at night, it's out there for 3 months just with them and you become a real team, sure there's danger and the risk of dying, but that's part of the job, and in a strange way, it's good to put the training into good practise.
Now, I believe that obviosuly you don't want to jump straight on the next plane to Kabul, and I know you won't, you sound pretty intelligant, but life sometimes needs adventure, you want to die knowing you've lived a life that's been lived to the full, sure, working in a nice warm office sounds tempting when compared to running around in the cold and wet, but equally, what will you have to show for oyur life at the end of it ? The strange irony is, people who have died in Afghanistan or Iraq, died doing the job they loved, and would have rather died that way, along side their best mates in a job they loved, than dying at a ripe old age having made nothing of their life and always 'played it safe'.

That's my view on it, I'm not against anyone elses opinions, I beleive everyone is different and love to see different opinions, it's what makes the world that bit more interesting. I view somebody who loves the army in the same way as I do someone who is against it.
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:08 pm



Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 35):
(presuming this was aimed at me)

it was  Wink

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 35):
I'd say go for the army if you want to, do you minimum service, and if you like it, stay on, if not, no harm done and it'll only be a positive.

 checkmark 

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 35):
. When employers look at a CV, having military service on it is nothing but a positive, it shows discipline, respect, the ability to work as a team, ability to follow rules, take orders and be profesional about things. Mental toughness is ofcourse a positive, infact I'd say it's a better quality than physical toughness, you can run as far as you like but it's no use if you break the first time you get told off. This ofcourse means you can as you say, deal with difficult situations, and you find ex servicemen and servicewomen, are better trained at dealing with problems under pressure than their civilian counterparts, and get things done quickly, in the army, there's no time for a 10 minute tea break and a walk to the shops, it gets done there and then.

that's what I love of the military that feeling of being part of a big family , and that Toughness , that "Drill" as we call it in German , makes the People stronger and help them to deal with many many things which before seemed almost impossible , Short :It makes you more resistant .

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 35):
and I know you won't, you sound pretty intelligant,

I won't hehe

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 35):
but life sometimes needs adventure, you want to die knowing you've lived a life that's been lived to the full

great point I very often hope for myself being an old man hoping to be able to tell like my Grandfather did about how he crashed 3 Times in WW2 with his A/C , not that I want to crash but this feeling : It was an adventure , I'ld be poorer (spiritually)if I didn' lived something so exciting .

Hey man welcome to my RU List  Wink

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wrighbrothers
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:27 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 36):
it was

*Mr Burns (from the Simpsons ofcourse) style* excellent...

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 36):
that's what I love of the military that feeling of being part of a big family , and that Toughness , that "Drill" as we call it in German , makes the People stronger and help them to deal with many many things which before seemed almost impossible , Short :It makes you more resistant .

Good, the military as a whole, and then at every level is a giant family, ofcourse there are inter service and inter-regiment rivalries, but it's always friendly and ingood nature, just an excuse to laugh at other people really. No matter where you go or what you do, if you're in uniform for and they're in uniform, you've got that instant connection and you know that you're doing something, for your country or somebody (in our case for our Queen) and it's that self pride and self worth that's key, you feel part of a family and it's a damn good family to be in.
'Drill' in our Army is just another word for marching, 'beasting' is the phrase for being shouted at or physicaly exercise (usualy if it's physical beastings, it's as a punishment) but the phrase we use which I think is equivilant to your phrase is 'character building', it's putting soldiers in difficult situations, pushing them further than they think they can go etc to make them better at what they do.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 36):
I won't hehe

Good good, as I say, war is another one of these things that happens and somebody has to fight them, infact if you joined the army and didn't want to go to war, you'd be in the minority.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 36):
great point I very often hope for myself being an old man hoping to be able to tell like my Grandfather did about how he crashed 3 Times in WW2 with his A/C , not that I want to crash but this feeling : It was an adventure , I'ld be poorer (spiritually)if I didn' lived something so exciting .

Exactly ! that's what it's about, when you're back at home, days, weeks, months, years or decades later, you've still got a never ended list of stories to tell people in great detail and you'll feel so proud when you tell them because you'll be like 'I did that'. Noth my grandads were in WW2 (in the RAF, strange how your grandfather was in the Airforce too, I'd presume the Luftwaffe ?). Life is an adventure and as you say, at the time I doubt your grandfather was too impressed that he crashed, but I'm sure he almost said it with a hint of pride because he survived 3 plane crashes years on. It's always good to have a few fantastic stories to impress the ladies.....or the children haha and ofcourse, they'll be proud of you, like you are no dobut proud of your grandfather, because all you'll be doing is tellinf the stories instead of hearing them.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 36):
Hey man welcome to my RU L

Danke ! (I actualy did German at school...wish I had continued it instead of French)

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Klaus
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:04 am

As far as I'm aware draftees never get sent on missions like the one in Afghanistan. Without a voluntary extension of your service you wouldn't see any of that.
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:42 am



Quoting Fiatstilojtd (Reply 33):
Didn't Toast say that he was Romanian in the past

No he is a citizen of the World  Wink , although Belgium seems to be his favorite now.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
Klaus
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Servic

Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:49 am



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 39):
Quoting Fiatstilojtd (Reply 33):
Didn't Toast say that he was Romanian in the past

No he is a citizen of the World   , although Belgium seems to be his favorite now.

I don't care where Toast originates from as long as good ingredients are used. Big grin
 
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LTU932
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:26 am



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 30):
no as said I want to enter into the Ausw�rtiges Amt , and be diplomat that's how I see it what would fulfill my live .

Yes, I know you want to join the AA but still, even if you don't want to become an officer in the Bundeswehr, there may be a few degrees that you can make in the UniBw which can serve you in civil life. Apparently those degrees are recognised as civil degrees as well, so they can serve you even when you decide to join the diplomatic service.
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nudelhirsch
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:26 am

Basically, Zivi abroad is about impossible, because both, social service and military service shall serve OUR country, not others. This is not bad per se, just a fact.

The reality of military service is to get a boring job at a boring location. By law no erson in mandatory military service can be sent to war (including Afghanistan) and people who want to go there must sign up for a longer period. Depending on your health, your location and your wishes you will rather end u digging holes and hiding them, or washing tanks, or whatever, maybe the "Gebirgsjaeger" (mountain troups) will invite you, then you get a load of skiing...

But that's reality for you.

Social Service can be something stupid, just to kill time, it can be fun, financially you might be better off because get payments for stuff (food, clothing...) unless served by the employer, which the army serves you, so it can be a good deal...

Lastly, what exactly attracts you about Afghanistan or the war? The idea of running around with a gun and being allowed to shoot every now and then? Seriously, what's attractive about sitting in a tent in the desert waiting for something to happen, while your nerves are being eaten up by bugs?
Defending your country is a valid thought, but yours is not really at stake. Not even the US is at stake. It's a war between east and west and it has long ago turned ugly, so why go there?
Read a book about war, ask grandfolks, mine are all dead but I had a grandfather from my wife's family who was stationed in the worst places, same for mine, I don't need more war around my family. Maybe yours is different.

As to the military service, I totally remember the summer of 2002. Guess what the army did then...  Wink
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dl021
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:02 am



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 32):

I dont believe in killing, simple.

Admirable...but what about self-defence? How about in defence of one's nation and freedom?

Are you simply willing to let others do the lifting when it comes to your personal safety?

You don't have to believe in killing...it happens whether you like it or not.

If it was down to you or an assailant and he was trying to kill you....would you hold back?
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FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:01 am



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 32):
I dont believe in killing, simple.

PLENTY of jobs you can do in the military that don't involve killing.

But just for you:

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence in their behalf."-Orwell

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."-John Stuart Mill
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LTU932
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:35 am



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 32):
I dont believe in killing, simple.

As someone asked, what about self defence? What about defending your country from foreign invaders? Do you expect the Army to shoot blanks while the enemy is shooting at you with the most vicious of military equipment around? This isn't the 18th or 19th Century, or even the middle ages, when most wars were about conquering, this is the 21st Century. And since you live in the United States, may I remind you that if it wasn't for the citizens of the original 13 states taking arms, and forming the Continental Army to fight the British in the Revolutionary War, the United States wouldn't exist today. War is sometimes unfortunately a necessary evil. As Carl von Clausewitz once said: War is the continuation of politics through different means. It's a sad, but prevalent fact even to this day.

Pacifism is a concept that, while a noble one, does not have a place in a society that is being constantly haunted by its violent nature and filled with sometimes dangerous ideologies. This is why I'm grateful that my country has the Bundeswehr, an Army that serves the people by defending it by taking arms, through (natural) disaster control, and that also serves its duty in the international community.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 44):
PLENTY of jobs you can do in the military that don't involve killing.

Indeed, like the Engineers Corps, which does things such as mine sweeping, construction assistance in case of natural disasters or even construction of temporary structures (e.g. during the Pacific war, engineers were involved in building temporary runways for bombers and fighters to land on in the Pacific isles). Then there's also logistics and supply, aerial refueling, med-evac, assistance in natural disasters (e.g. in Germany, the Army frequently gets called to assist the civilian authorities in natural disaster prevention and/or control), etc.

So to prove your point, there are lots of divisions in the military that do not involve killing, but are just as essential to the army as combat is.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Just Got Post Of German Army - Military Service

Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:53 pm

I have question...have you actually been accepted by the military? Getting the call is one thing...passing that initial physical and being deemed actually fit to serve is another. That would make the discussion a moot point.

Of course I keep thinking back to war movies of Vietnam draftees, some of which get sent home for having some seemingly invisible flaw that makes them unfit. And we all know the "accuracy" of certain Hollywood movies.

Not trying to be a buzz kill either if you want to serve. If you're physically fit, then you're ok. But if you want to run off to foreign lands, there can be other lesser known health reqs.

That said, conscripted service. No good for the conscripts, certainly no good for the military. The best militaries are usually all volunteer forces. As some have stated, you might not even go to Afghanistan unless you voluntarily sign up for a longer tour of duty. Otherwise you'd probably be a boring support soldier in the homefront. Who knows, disaster strikes and soldiers, usually conscripts will be sent to lend a hand in security, evacuations, aid distribution, and all that. A very worthwhile role indeed if you can't get a post in Afghanistan. Wrighbrothers post is the best one I've seen actually.

My dad was a conscript in Poland in the late 60's. Wound up with a short tour in Czechoslovakia during Prague Spring. No real combat though. The Polish element of that disgusting invasion kept all conscripts in rear reserve. But some Czech partisans would take pot-shots at tank crews stopping to take a leak. This experience, combined with an anti-communist WW2 vet of a father who served with the AK, clearly molded the very anti-communist leanings in much of my family. Surprise, surprise, that sentiment wound up with him in the States, no longer able to come home without fear of punishments or reprisals from Warsaw.

Sometimes it depends on what you're fighting for. While the Polish People's Republic was a disgusting Soviet puppet, the Republic of Poland would have been something he'd have an easier time actually fighting for.

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