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fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:15 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 142):
No, it doesn't say that and you are either making that up or misinformed. I will assume the latter, and hope the former isn't true. The only Islam specific reference is that to Mohammad, and, in the Shi'a one, to Ali.

Again, it utilizes phrases from the koran verbatim that are not found in the bible or torah.

Now, how is it not islamic?
 
cfalk
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:16 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 149):
Quoting Cfalk (Reply 148):

What does Christianity have to do with this?

A whole hell of a lot.

Explain

Quoting N1120A (Reply 149):
No, see, you are the one that did that.

What are you talking about? I have put forward my position, and explained the reasons behind it. You have not.
 
N1120A
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:23 am



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 150):

Now, how is it not islamic?

Because the concept of "God" isn't an Islamic one, it is a generally religious one.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 151):
and explained the reasons behind it.

No you didn't. You called Mohammad a pedophile and compared him to Koresh and Dahmer. Not only is that factually untrue, it is nothing by pure, bigoted flamebait.
 
AGM100
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:36 am

Might I suggest a wrist watch ? One that you can look at and say ..Hey its time for me to pray. Their you go entrepreneurs.. wrist watches that do the call to prayer up to 5 times a day ! $19.95 You could even have a little Iman pointing around the dial !!

Kidding ..... I am not sure how a I feel about it . I certainly could not imagine Christian calls to prayer in my neighbourhood without someone complaining ... weird situation for sure.
 
Banco
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:42 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 152):
it is nothing by pure, bigoted flamebait.

I wonder how it would go down to suggest Christ was a homosexual, given that he was unmarried in a time when it was extremely unusual for that to be the case.  scratchchin 

I reckon there's be howls of protest and posts deleted. Yet attacking the holy prophet of Islam like that is OK?
 
N1120A
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:45 am



Quoting Banco (Reply 154):

I wonder how it would go down to suggest Christ was a homosexual, given that he was unmarried in a time when it was extremely unusual for that to be the case.

Or the other suggestion, that has some significant research behind it, that Jesus had children, potentially with a former prostitute.

Or that all this religions stuff is made up fallacy anyway?

Quoting Banco (Reply 154):
Yet attacking the holy prophet of Islam like that is OK?

Well, only one of the prophets. If you say nice things about the other ones, they praise you  Wink
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:45 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 152):
Because the concept of "God" isn't an Islamic one, it is a generally religious one.

Yes the concept is. But the messages of the call are islamic in that they are only in the koran.

Either way, an atheist shouldn't have to have it broadcast over their neighborhood.
 
N1120A
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:50 am



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 156):

Either way, an atheist shouldn't have to have it broadcast over their neighborhood.

An atheist who believes in freedom of speech and the freedom to be an atheist will accept it.
 
IFEMaster
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:09 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 157):

An atheist who believes in freedom of speech and the freedom to be an atheist will accept it.

You're going round in circles. Anyone who supports freedom of speech, atheist or otherwise, will object when that speech becomes intrusive and unpeaceful.
 
halls120
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:15 am



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 158):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 157):

An atheist who believes in freedom of speech and the freedom to be an atheist will accept it.

You're going round in circles.

 rotfl  are you really surprised?

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 158):
Anyone who supports freedom of speech, atheist or otherwise, will object when that speech becomes intrusive and unpeaceful.

And intrusive speech will be subject to reasonable regulation, be it religious or otherwise.
 
fumanchewd
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:24 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 157):
An atheist who believes in freedom of speech and the freedom to be an atheist will accept it.

Great. With that logic comes the broadcasting wars of 2010-2025.

The catholics purchase a 2000 decible blessed speaker system in the shape of the pontiff's hat to compete with the words of the mosque. After they piss everyone with the loudness they meekly broadcast that they are sorry and are now forgiven.

To follow suit the local temples join in the fray with their even louder system to read from the torah followed by severe self-criticism and neurosis. The message ends with a loud "oye vey!"

The Anglican Church purchases a somewhat quiter broadcast system to show how much more "British" and cultured they are than the others, all the while the lesbian preists give out annulments won in the nightly bingo tournament. They follow the call to tea with a timid request for people to come to church "whenever" after the football game is over.

On top of everything else is the loudest speaker system of all, the atheists. They exhort 20 times a day how much more intelligent they are, that anyone who believes in god is an idiot that believes in silly fairytales, and that they would never stoop as low as the religions in telling people what they should believe

Freedom of speech should not be speech forced upon people. Missionaries coming to your home can be turned away. Street preachers drown out after 50 yards. To sit in your home and be forced to listen to words from the koran is not the excercising of free speech.
 
Impacto
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:54 am

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
and this will serve as a daily reminder to local residents that Islam is indeed trying to impose itself.

Thats an understatement. Mind you, this was your initial purpose for starting this thread (Islam trying to impose itself)

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):

I think it might actually backlash, as this would be a daily reminder to that fact. Why is it always us that have to "respect diversity" and nobody else?

Who are the "Us" and what category of the "Us" do you fall into?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 135):

Guys there is a difference between allowing people to worship how they like, and allowing them to proclaim over loudspeakers for up to 6 minutes per day how Islam is the one and only true faith (roughly paraphrasing). Basically it is insulting to everyone who believes differently. Bells don't send the same message - they're just bells.

It is true that every single religion that exists today believes it is the one and only true faith, and anyone from any faith that tells you it isn't the case in their religion is lying to you pop and plain. You can say religion is similar to an election or a team sports. I can assure you that there isn't a sentence, or a single word for that matter in the Islamic call for prayer that states that Islam is the one and only true faith. Secondly, the Christian and Islamic method of calling prayers are different. That is very crucial for you to understand. Both have been practicing their respective methods for thousands of years. Going back to how you started the thread, your complain was that Islam is trying to impose itself on a non-Muslim city, which is really amazing now because you've totally switched from to that rather ridiculous argument, to what everyone else on the thread is more concerned about (The noise the loud speakers will create) which is a more civilized and valid argument for this topic. So like others now, you seem to think its OK, as long as it doesn't cause any disturbance. Well, from your earlier post, you seem care less on what Oxford residents feel about it, your only concern is how Islam is trying to spread "Its evil wings all over the world" and when you realized no one was buying your initial argument, you decided to join what everyone else is arguing about. How do you define "Impose" as? They are not imposing it because the asked for permission from the Bishop of Oxford who approved it. What is wrong with that? If thats your definition of Imposing, then its safe to say that not only Islam, but all religions are trying to impose themselves which IMO isn't a bad thing at all. Personally I think the shouldn't go ahead with this proposal, because its all up to the residents of Oxford themselves, if the majority are against it, it would be a bad idea to go ahead with the plan.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 135):

And don't give that "nobody understands what they are saying". We all know what those calls to prayer say - the gist of it if not the exact words.

Please, enlighten us then, oh wise one, what do those words mean since you know the exact meaning?

I have a few more questions for you Mr Cfalk.

1. Its very clear from your other previous threads that you have issues with Muslims and Islam itself, I mean like in the last thread regarding support on wife beatings, you compared Muslims to having 1.3 billion Nazis. Its all your opinion and your entitled to it, but do you accept elements of bias in most of your statement regarding Islam? I accept the fact that there is a possibility of bias in this post and all other posts I have posted regarding Islam because I am a Muslim and speak from the Islamic perspective. It is OK to be biased at unimportant or irrelevant issue, but its also important as well to accept being biased or partial in an issue. Do you accept that Mr Cfalk?

2. According to your profile, you reside in Kentucky. How does that event happening in Oxford, England affect you? Do you have any relatives or friends over there that could be affected? You also seem to have an interest or obsession in Islamic growth and development, do you really think that Islam is growing to conquer everything?

3. If such a development were vice versa, say a Saudi town approves the ringing of church bells to heard around the town when its time for church services or an approval for the construction of a giant buddha statue in Oxford, would you (Yourself) start a topic of discussion on any of those? Please be honest.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 143):
That in itself offends me, because I personally believe Mohammad was no holy man. To me, he was a pedophile with a vicious and deadly temper, who actively enslaved women and children to use as sexual objects for his men, and who perverted the local pagan religions and mixed it with a pinch of Judaism for his own profit. I would feel equally offended by calls to worship the spirit of Jeffrey Dahmer or David Koresh

Unbelievable! How the hell do you get away with such comments? if I were to write something similar or less aggressive, how came I get warned or banned? Aren't you suppose to keep such thoughts to yourself?

Anytime one logs onto the Non Aviation forum section, chances there is a thread with Islamophobic elements in it. What I find even stranger is, I never encounter such scenarios at school or work, but here at airliners. Its good and healthy to have all these argumentative topics, as we are able to exchange our knowledge and ideas on issues, but sometimes we do cross our privileged boundaries, sometimes without knowing it. We take advantage of freedom of expression to be offensive. Religions may have problems between each other, but does that have to reflect here on airliners.net? We are all gathered here for one common thing (our love and passion for aviation). Please lets not segregate ourselves over religion.

[Edited 2008-01-15 19:13:54]
 
halls120
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:58 am



Quoting Impacto (Reply 161):
Please lets not segregate ourselves over religion.

A worthwhile plea. Unfortunately, religion has been doing its level best to drive wedges between people since the dawn of man.
 
N1120A
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:36 am



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 158):
Anyone who supports freedom of speech, atheist or otherwise, will object when that speech becomes intrusive and unpeaceful.

There is nothing inherently unpeaceful about a call to prayer. Further, civil rights are occasionally intrusive when some don't agree with viewpoints. You can't ban calls to prayer, only regulate the time/place/manner (noise), and that will have to be applied under further statutes.
 
cfalk
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:43 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 152):
No you didn't. You called Mohammad a pedophile and compared him to Koresh and Dahmer. Not only is that factually untrue, it is nothing by pure, bigoted flamebait.

Try reading the Qu'ran, the Hathith, the Sira, and the Sunnah. It's all in there.

He bedded one of his wives (Aisha, if I recall), when she was 9 years old. He was in his 50s. Even at that time, it was pretty outrageous, but he justified it by saying that Allah told him to do it. Sounds like Koresh.

Mohammad tortured and killed anyone who got in his way, including the Meccans, who tolerated him for over a decade. Once evicted from Mecca he lived as a highwayman, robbing caravans with his followers. Revelations "from Allah" were conveniently provided to him, which allowed his people to murder innocent drivers and steal in his service. His followers gradually developed a lust for things that could be taken in battle, including material comforts and captured women and children.

Often the people captured in battle would be brought before the self-proclaimed prophet (note that nobody else ever witnessed any such visions or anything that would substantiate his claims), where they would plead for their lives, arguing, for example, that they would never have treated the Muslims that way. The traditions are quite clear in portraying Muhammad as largely unmoved by their pleas, and ordering their deaths anyway, often by horrible means. In one case, he orders a man slain, telling him that “Hell” will take care of the poor fellow’s orphaned daughter.

He persecuted and massacred the Banu Qaynuqa, the Banu Nadir, and the Banu Quyrayza jewish tribes, simply because they would not agree to his religion. Of all their wealth, the Holy Man kept a fifth for himself.

In the case of the Nadir, he agreed to peace talks, and when the Nadir's guard was down, slaughtered them.

In the case of the Qaynuqa, the tribe surrendered peacefully, but Mohammad nevertheless ordered every male from puberty and older executed. The surviving children of the men became slaves of the Muslims, and their widows became the sex slaves of their own killers. This included the Jewish girl, Reihana, who became one of Muhammad's personal concubines the very night that her husband was killed. The prophet of Islam apparently "enjoyed her pleasures" (ie. raped her) even as the execution of her people was taking place. Women were much like any other possession taken in battle, to be done with however their captors pleased. Muhammad ordered that a fifth be reserved for him, many of who became his sex slaves, in addition to his twelve wives. Some of these he doled out to others.

And the Jews were not his only targets. His roving band would give the same treatment to any of the tribes they came accross, like Khaybar and the Hunain. The tribes all around began to convert to Islam out of self-preservation.

I could go on and on. Mohammad was a bloodthirsty despot. And the fact that Islam teaches that Muslims must emulate him scares the bejeezus out of me. The fact that it doesn't bother you either shows you to be the ignorant one, not me.

Now, I'm not saying that there is only blood and gore in Islam. There are some good things too, and thankfully many Muslims concentrate on that and ignore the rest. But millions of Muslims see these same, peaceful Muslims as false Muslims, who refuse to go "all the way"

Quoting Banco (Reply 154):
I wonder how it would go down to suggest Christ was a homosexual, given that he was unmarried in a time when it was extremely unusual for that to be the case.

It was unusual, but there is no positive evidence or writings of the time to support the theory. On the other hand, there is plenty of historical evidence regarding Mohammed and his, er, "activities".

Quoting Impacto (Reply 161):
Who are the "Us" and what category of the "Us" do you fall into?

Us=the western world

Quoting Impacto (Reply 161):
but its also important as well to accept being biased or partial in an issue. Do you accept that Mr Cfalk?

Without question. You would be hardpressed to find someone who is truely unbiased on virtualy any issue..

Quoting Impacto (Reply 161):
According to your profile, you reside in Kentucky. How does that event happening in Oxford, England affect you?

I live in Kentucky now, but I have also lived in England, Holland, Germany, Switzerland, France, Poland and India.

Quoting Impacto (Reply 161):
If such a development were vice versa, say a Saudi town approves the ringing of church bells to heard around the town when its time for church services or an approval for the construction of a giant buddha statue in Oxford, would you (Yourself) start a topic of discussion on any of those? Please be honest.

For the bells, I have already said what I think of them. They can mean many things and are not explicit. But I doubt the Saudis would tolerate even that. As for the Buddha, I'd have absolutely no problem with it. While I disagree with many tennents of Buddhism, it is a peaceful religion that can live side by side with others.
 
N1120A
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:51 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 164):

He bedded one of his wives (Aisha, if I recall), when she was 9 years old. He was in his 50s

That is highly suspect, and leaves out that Aisha was an extremely influential person in his life and exerted a great deal of influence over Mohammad. Further, they were indeed legally married.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 164):
the self-proclaimed prophet (note that nobody else ever witnessed any such visions or anything that would substantiate his claims)

And that is in any way different from Jesus claiming to be son of god? No. It is all hogwash
 
cfalk
Topic Author
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:56 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 165):
And that is in any way different from Jesus claiming to be son of god?

He never did.

Anyway, you can't compare the life of Jesus, a pacifist who preached love and charity, who never harmed anyone, with Mohammed's life.
 
N1120A
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:00 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 166):
Anyway, you can't compare the life of Jesus, a pacifist who preached love and charity, who never harmed anyone, with Mohammed's life.

Ok, now the credibility is zero in ANY religious argument.
 
cfalk
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:06 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 167):
Ok, now the credibility is zero in ANY religious argument.

You keep coming up with these outrageous statements and not supporting them a whit. Try again.
 
N1120A
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:07 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 168):

You keep coming up with these outrageous statements and not supporting them a whit.

The statement is supported by your obviously biased outlook toward religion.
 
cfalk
Topic Author
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:16 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 169):
The statement is supported by your obviously biased outlook toward religion.

 laughing   laughing   laughing 

I back up my arguments with facts straight out of Islamic texts, you back up with nothing, and YOU complain.

Yes, I am biased, and I have explained why. You have not, and have not even admitted your bias. So tell me, what is it that tells you that I just made the whole thing up?

Jeez, it's as if you claimed water is made of H2S rather than H2O, and when we call you on it, you just wave it off and say "I'm right, you're wrong". How childish.
 
N1120A
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:17 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 170):
You have not, and have not even admitted your bias.

My bias is well known. Religion is a fallacy. God is a fallacy.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 170):

I back up my arguments with facts straight out of Islamic texts

Out of YOUR interpretations of Islamic texts.
 
cfalk
Topic Author
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:31 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 171):
My bias is well known. Religion is a fallacy. God is a fallacy.

Fine.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 171):
Out of YOUR interpretations of Islamic texts.

So, what are YOUR interpretations of the subject matter?
 
N1120A
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:44 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 172):

So, what are YOUR interpretations of the subject matter?

The guy was a statesman living in the 600's, and acted in accordance with what similar people would do.
 
IFEMaster
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:15 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 163):
There is nothing inherently unpeaceful about a call to prayer. Further, civil rights are occasionally intrusive when some don't agree with viewpoints. You can't ban calls to prayer, only regulate the time/place/manner (noise), and that will have to be applied under further statutes.

Good lord...are you reading what you are saying? You just agreed with what I've been saying...this must be regulated in the fashion that you have described here under current statutes. While the message may not be unpeaceful (subjectively), the manner in which it is delivered is, and that's where the objection lies. It's undeniable; broadcasting this for all to hear is obnoxious and irritating and intrusive and will taint what is otherwise a beautiful city.
 
IH8BY
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:06 am



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 174):
It's undeniable; broadcasting this for all to hear is obnoxious and irritating and intrusive and will taint what is otherwise a beautiful city.

Intrusive, yes, quite probably - it's intrusive in Cairo too. But tainting a beautiful city? I'm not sure I'd go that far. If it was in the centre of town I'd have serious reservations, as it would be completely out of character with the rest of the city centre.

But the Cowley Road? We're out of the 'beautiful city' by then. I'd say it wouldn't seem out of place; as long as it was heard within that vicinity it's something that you'd almost expect of an area so multicultural. It might however upset other minorities in the area if it was broadcast all the time... that's my main concern; if it was broadcast only on a Friday I should imagine the effect would be minimal.
 
Banco
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:10 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 164):
Quoting Banco (Reply 154):
I wonder how it would go down to suggest Christ was a homosexual, given that he was unmarried in a time when it was extremely unusual for that to be the case.

It was unusual, but there is no positive evidence or writings of the time to support the theory. On the other hand, there is plenty of historical evidence regarding Mohammed and his, er, "activities".

That's a ridiculous argument. There's no positive evidence for the life of Jesus at all beyond the gospels (highly contradictory, and in many cases proveably false, like the nativity), and the so called proof of his life by Jospehus was added later by another hand. Though it's likely that he did indeed live, it cannot be certain.

So to say there is no positive evidence for homosexuality is crackers! There's no positive evidence for marriage, for anything. Not to mention a wife in any gospel is EXTREMELY peculiar.
 
cfalk
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:46 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 173):
The guy was a statesman living in the 600's, and acted in accordance with what similar people would do.

"Statesman" is a huge stretch. But the rest of your statement is true.

Life was brutish and short on the Arabian penisula at the time. Everyone belonged to one of a hundred warring tribes, and The horrible climate protected the peninsula from conquest and cultural influence (although the Persians did introduce a written language along the coastal edges of the region, which is the origin of Arabic). No foreign army felt that sheep and goats were worth taking and the area was remarkably isolated. The renaissance of knowledge that the rest of the world had been experiencing since the Greek revival was largely missed out on by the Arabs, whose entire energies were devoted to daily survival against the ruthless environment and other tribes.

For these people, morality was dictated merely by necessity, and obligations did not extend beyond one’s tribe. This is a critical basis for the development of the Islamic attitude toward those outside the faith, including the moral principle that the ethics of any act are determined only by whether or not it benefits Muslims.

There were pagan traditions in Arabia, particularly among those based in the trading centers, such as Mecca and Medina. The Kaaba already existed back then, and was worshipped by certain tribes with a circling ritual that was later borrowed by Muhammad’s followers (there were at least five other such structures in Arabia at the time). Likewise, Allah was the name that had been given to the moon god, many centuries before Muhammad's time.

Muhammad later created Islam based on these crude pagan practices as well as basic theological elements of Christianity and Judaism according to his own (often inaccurate) understanding. His erroneous interpretation of Christianity, for example, is often attributed to an early experience with fringe cults in the Palestinian region (then known as Syria).

Anyway, I'm getting off on a tangent again, but the local customs do explain a lot about Mohammed and his behaviour, as well as Islam itself, particularly the "us vs. everyone else" mentalty.
 
IFEMaster
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:47 pm



Quoting IH8BY (Reply 175):
But the Cowley Road? We're out of the 'beautiful city' by then. I'd say it wouldn't seem out of place; as long as it was heard within that vicinity it's something that you'd almost expect of an area so multicultural. It might however upset other minorities in the area if it was broadcast all the time... that's my main concern; if it was broadcast only on a Friday I should imagine the effect would be minimal.

Next time something is going on at Southfield - a band playing or a fare or something, stand on Magdalen Bridge and you'll hear it loud and clear. Also, I consider Cowley Road from The Plain up a good half mile (up to the area around the Manzil center) or so to be part of historic Oxford...yes, it's multicultural, for sure, but it still has a lot of the 'dreaming spires' quaintness and charm about it that, in my opinion, would be subtracted by a loud call to prayer three times a day.
 
N1120A
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:53 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 177):
on these crude pagan practices

Do you celebrate Christmas?
 
mandala499
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:38 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 164):
He bedded one of his wives (Aisha, if I recall), when she was 9 years old. He was in his 50s. Even at that time, it was pretty outrageous, but he justified it by saying that Allah told him to do it. Sounds like Koresh.

Mohammad tortured and killed anyone who got in his way, including the Meccans, who tolerated him for over a decade. Once evicted from Mecca he lived as a highwayman, robbing caravans with his followers. Revelations "from Allah" were conveniently provided to him, which allowed his people to murder innocent drivers and steal in his service. His followers gradually developed a lust for things that could be taken in battle, including material comforts and captured women and children.

Go and re-read what I wrote in the "wifebeating" thread. I strongly suggest you read Yusuf Ali's English translation of the Qur'An... since you're so interested that is... as in, buy the whole Book, not passages taken out by Islamophobics or by those who bets that an average Muslim is a Middle Eastern person.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 164):
But millions of Muslims see these same, peaceful Muslims as false Muslims, who refuse to go "all the way"

And we peaceful Muslims see those whackos enjoying luring their friends and relatives to kill themselves as false/deluded Muslims, who refuse to go away...

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 166):
Anyway, you can't compare the life of Jesus, a pacifist who preached love and charity, who never harmed anyone, with Mohammed's life.

And Islam highly regards Jesus, as the prophet before Muhammad and guess what, we too believe that he shall return... *grin*...
Which version of the passages have you read? Mohammed didn't go around and say, "Which Jewish community or Pagan tribe we can slaughter and pillage tonight"

Again, re-read what I wrote in the "wifebeating" thread.

And please can we get back to the topic on hand which is the proposal to allow the Adhan to be blared over the megaphones over a part of Oxford.

I say NAY to the proposal! The reasons I've already said....

Actually, forget what I said, I guess some people here enjoy the endless debate going around in circles reading parts and bits of what they want to believe instead of reading the whole damn thing about what is it they're debating about... Yeah, I know, it gets boring when you know more than what supports your argument.

*yawn*

mandala499
 
Banco
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:03 pm



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 180):
"Which Jewish community or Pagan tribe we can slaughter and pillage tonight"

The Bible does, incidentally. Slaughtering loads of people (what we would call genocide) is fairly routine in it.
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:13 pm



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 180):
And Islam highly regards Jesus, as the prophet before Muhammad and guess what, we too believe that he shall return... *grin*...

This is true. But they don't believe that he was anything but a prophet, which is highly contradictory to christian beliefs.

No son of god, no crucifiction, and no resurrection.
 
Banco
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:18 pm



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 182):
No son of god, no crucifiction, and no resurrection.

So the Qu'ran's not all ludicrous then?  Wink
 
Delta767300ER
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:23 pm

I really dont see a problem as long as the Adhan is not excessively loud. I dont have a problem with church bells as long as they are not excessively loud either.

I am not a Muslim but I think the Adhan is amazing.

Take a look at this link on YouTube and keep an open mind:



This is the most amazing Adhan I have ever heard.

-Delta767300ER
 
mandala499
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:56 am



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 182):
This is true. But they don't believe that he was anything but a prophet, which is highly contradictory to christian beliefs.

That is why we're not christians... if you want the most definitive theological and fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity, that is it.... we do not belief he is the Son of God. We do belief he performed miracles, taught kindness endlessly, was betrayed then was crucified... gotta check on the details on the resurrection tough... *grin*
Jesus was the special one, Mohammed was the last reminder...

Quoting Delta767300ER (Reply 184):
I really dont see a problem as long as the Adhan is not excessively loud. I dont have a problem with church bells as long as they are not excessively loud either.

If anyone wants to be woken up at 4am sunday/monday due to the excessively loud speakers on those two days, feel free to come to my house!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:53 am



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 185):
If anyone wants to be woken up at 4am sunday/monday due to the excessively loud speakers on those two days, feel free to come to my house!

Why 4am.In Mumbai its 0500hrs.Thats Azan for muslims.
Then theres the Arti ceremony of the Hindus & the Church bells of the Christians.
The Sikhs have their procession with holy chants around 0500hrs at special occasions.

regds
MEL
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:22 pm



Quoting Banco (Reply 183):
Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 182):
No son of god, no crucifiction, and no resurrection.

So the Qu'ran's not all ludicrous then? Wink

I have my suspicions with all religions. But I wouldn't be so cavalier in being cynical with things that mean so much to so many.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 185):
We do belief he performed miracles, taught kindness endlessly, was betrayed then was crucified... gotta check on the details on the resurrection tough... *grin*
Jesus was the special one, Mohammed was the last reminder...

I have heard otherwise on the crucification. Sura 4.155-56

Yet they slew him not, and they crucified him not, but they had only his likeness

And this is nothing to get excited over. I just mentioned this because some claim that the "big three" have the same beliefs which isn't true. The christians believed that jesus was the prophet that the jews were hoping for. The jews today do not believe that he was. Muslims believed that mohammad is the last and greatest prophet and that jesus was not the son of god. The christians today believe that jesus was the son of god and that mohammad was not the last prophet as jesus will be back

Clearly the three religions have similarities but they have very fundamental differences as well.
 
Banco
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:58 pm



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 187):
I have my suspicions with all religions. But I wouldn't be so cavalier in being cynical with things that mean so much to so many.

That it means a lot to them isn't really relevant. You can tell a terminal cancer sufferer that he's going to be fine and it might make him feel better. Doesn't make it true.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:49 am



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 186):
Why 4am.In Mumbai its 0500hrs.Thats Azan for muslims.
Then theres the Arti ceremony of the Hindus & the Church bells of the Christians.

-
Sounds a bit noisy, but refreshingly diverse !  Wink
-

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 187):
I have heard otherwise on the crucification. Sura 4.155-56

Yet they slew him not, and they crucified him not, but they had only his likeness

You indeed heard correctly. According to the Koran, Isa was saved from being crucified, but his start-up to heaven in the end was/is the same as in the Bible.
-

Quoting Delta767300ER (Reply 184):
the Adhan is amazing.

it is available on CD, for instance with the voice of the Grand Imam of Kuala Lumpur. Strange accent, but well done.
-
 
mandala499
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:55 am

FUmanchewd, that is correct... I had a look back at the passages... one needs to do that from time to time to be reminded. But yes, in our belief, God saved him beforehand... and he's gonna come back (but then, I've yet to read the passage saying so). (btw, I think it is actually 4.157... but then again, I don't have it with me at the moment).

Strangely enough, several early Christians also have different understanding on the crucifixion... This may explain why Islam took a view similar to some of them.

HAWK21M,
It ranges from 4am - 5am here depending on the time of year, as it is all relative to the position of the sun. Like this time of the year, it's 0400, and the last 2 prayers are done on 1815 and 1930... On the middle of the year, it can be as late as 0445 and as early as 1750 and 1900... This is because we're on the Southern hemisphere too *grin*

----

If electronic amplification goes through, perhaps it'll be nice if Bishop Pritchard would experience it at 0340 local time in the summer! LOL

Mandala499
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:24 am



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 190):
Bishop Pritchard would experience it at 0340 local time in the summer! LOL

he possibly uses hearing-aids usually but not at night ?  Yeah sure  Confused
 
mandala499
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RE: Daily Calls To Prayer Over Oxford

Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:01 pm

I see his agenda now!
He approves of the Adhan, so his congregation would complain to him and hopefully become more Christian in the process...
Meanwhile, at night, he switches his hearing aid off!

LOL...
J/K

mandala499

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