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Pyrex
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Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:38 am

In a few of the other threads I have noticed something which I found quite troublesome, as I have never personally met anyone who shares that ideology. I can totally understand why someone can not feel personally invested in the protection of the environment (this world would be a much worse one if we all commited ourselves to the same causes) but I would at the very least expect someone to feel neutral about it. However, it seems there are some people out there who have an active contempt for the environment, who would go out of their way to harm it just out of spite - it is almost as they would rather pave the entire Alaskan wilderness into a parking lot just because and look down on you as not nearly as manly enough if you order a side of salad with your steak or don't strangle at least a puppy or kitty each day.

I have tried extensively but fail to understand this behavior. Part of me thinks it might be some sort of religious fundamentalism, an extremist interpretation of the book of Genesis whereupon man was created above all other creatures and, since we already screwed up one world (the Garden of Eden) no harm in screwing up another, but then I am reminded that most mainstream religions are often quite progressive in term of conservation (St. Francis of Assis was actually one of the early environmentalists). Another times some strange images come to mind of little boys camping in the wilderness with their boyscout platoon who have to creep into the woods in the dead of night to do their thing, only to be bitten in the behind by a heat-seaking snake. What are other possible, more viable causes for this behavior?
 
QFA380
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:56 am

I'd say, many people dislike or distrust particular environmentalists. A Republican who didn't like Al Gore when he was VP, didn't like him when he was Dem candidate in 2000 and doesn't like him now, is just saying 'Screw this guy and his apocalyptic predictions.' It especially seems to happen with older people (no offence) who just say, this has happened before, nothing to be worried about. I mean, what do you think the demographics of Toyota Prius owners are? I'd say about 95% of those people are aged 25-45 with a fairly decent income.

Someone may have contempt for those of us who are younger, inexperienced about anything, we are the ones who are proclaiming the world is coming to an end yet haven't been on this planet long enough to know any extremes. As you say though, its not just Climate Change that they are against, its everything to do with the environment. I'm gonna drive an enormous pickup that I don't need, for just myself and chop down as many trees as possible just because I can. I believe its a pathetic mentality that could bring the demise of mankind, but shit happens and I cannot change someones point of view, the same point of view hey had for all 60 years of their life. I believe that in 20 years we will really see some political change as all those who show no respect for the environment are locked up in nursing homes with Dementia (sorry but thats definitely gonna happen). I wonder though if it will be too late...

Much of it is to prove a point and cling on to 'their day', well today is today, tomorrow will be today, but yesterday is gone forever, leave it.

Disclaimer: This is just from my personal opinion, be it wrong in your mind. Some people who may fit in to what I have talked about have the utmost respect for all things living and I have respect for those people.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:29 am



Quoting QFA380 (Reply 1):
A Republican who didn't like Al Gore when he was VP, didn't like him when he was Dem candidate in 2000 and doesn't like him now, is just saying 'Screw this guy and his apocalyptic predictions.'

Maybe its because mant people see him (and Teddy Kennedy) as hyprocrites. Gore tells us we need to sign on to the Kyoto accords, and all live using less energy and fossel fuels, because WE are causing global warming. Yet he lives in an 8000 sq ft house in Nashville, TN and flys around the world in private jets. Kennedy keeps blocking the windmill generation project, because the wind mills will hurt his views from his home in Hyannis, MA. Kennedy wants you to use those mercury filled low energy light bulbs.

I wonder what their carbon foot print numbers are?

It is not that people have contempt for the environment, most people love the environment and want to save it. They just have different views on how to do that. The science on global warming isn't all in yet, many believe we are in a natueral cycle (which Earth has had many of). A lot of people remember these same people screaming about globval warming today, were screaming about the dangers of global cooling in the 1970s. A new ice age was coming.

Other than normal cycles (and yes the Earth has gotten warmer), ther is no way (currently) to prove people are destroying the atmosphere.
 
Mir
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:59 am

I don't get understand that attitude either.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
Maybe its because mant people see him (and Teddy Kennedy) as hyprocrites.

I believe that Ted Kennedy needs to shut the hell up and build the damn wind turbines. I also believe that Al Gore can be hypocritical at times (though much of the criticism is exaggerated). I'm not going to go out and buy an SUV just to spite them like some do. That's just stupid and childish.

-Mir
 
NeilYYZ
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:21 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
I would at the very least expect someone to feel neutral about it.

That's pretty much my attitude. I don't try to harm the environment, I don't throw crap on the ground and whatnot, but I also don't try to live a Green lifestyle by any means. For those that do, all the power to them.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 1):
I'd say, many people dislike or distrust particular environmentalists.

Al Gore is a comedian, no?

I drive a truck for work in the summers (F-350 and Chevy Duramax Diesels) and I've been lectured at gas stations by people about how bad they are for the environment, which is really annoying. I think part of the reason some people dislike environmentalists is some, not all mind you, are so aggressive in trying to get their point across that it becomes annoying. If I'm not breaking the law, leave me alone.
 
767Lover
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:04 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
However, it seems there are some people out there who have an active contempt for the environment, who would go out of their way to harm it just out of spite - it is almost as they would rather pave the entire Alaskan wilderness into a parking lot just because and look down on you as not nearly as manly enough if you order a side of salad with your steak or don't strangle at least a puppy or kitty each day.

When has anyone here demonstrated a view this extreme?
 
Queso
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:13 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
it seems there are some people out there who have an active contempt for the environment

Anybody in particular you have in mind?
 
miamiair
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:18 pm

I don't have contempt for the environment.

I have contempt for several environmentalists.

KC135TopBoom has pretty much summed up my arguments.
 
IH8BY
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 pm

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 7):
I have contempt for several environmentalists.

Sadly, many of these so-called environmentalists are indeed full of hypocrisy and are hoping to make a quick buck out of people's environmental fears (I have not seen the Gore film, so I cannot comment directly on its content). The real problem with this is that many people's contempt for these individuals manifests itself in something which does come close to contempt for the environment as they, disapproving of the measures these individuals suggest, harden their stance against changing their lifestyles even the slightest bit to lessen their impact on the environment.

With all the fuss that's been made about it in the last couple of years, you'd think that talk of global warming and pollution is a new phenomenon really, but I wonder whether that's really the case. I have in my loft a children's book from the early 1990s, the "Blue Peter Green Book", which talks about human-influenced global warming as though it's an accepted fact. What people like Al Gore have done is to take the science (which has been a major debate - and now close to consensus -inside academic circles for a fair while now) and market it - that is, to show - previously sceptical - people how global warming could affect their lives. Let's face it, if you can't see how it might affect you, why would you change? That might go some way to explain why the tree-huggers of old - those who suggested that we should protect the environment for the sake of protecting the environment - never held that much sway politically. Presenting environmental damage in such a way that affects our more selfish interests - including that of self-preservation - is on the other hand something that does generate interest, because while people are largely uninterested in Mother Nature being a little offended, they'll draw the line at having to buy rubber dinghies for their garden gnomes!

I am - and have been for a long time - of the opinion that we should respect the environment regardless of whether we are seriously affecting the natural cycles of climate change. That only a few scientists appear to refute the argument that human influence on climate change is real does, however, strengthen my belief that we have to learn to live in a more sustainable fashion. I think we're tied up in this bizarre sense for complete proof and evidence; we make decisions in our daily lives based on much more shaky evidence than we have for human-influenced climate change. For example, we put through laws on terrorism which affect or change our lives considerably. This is in spite of the relatively low chance of an individual actually being caught up in such an incident compared with the apparent inevitability of climate change and its wide-reaching potential consequences. I know that's a subject which provokes a lot of emotions (but then so is climate change) but my gut feeling is that, if we're prepared to change our lives a lot to cut down a risk like terrorism, it seems bizarre to resist even the smallest of changes to cut down what is arguably a much more universal risk.

There are a few things which irk me about people's seemingly hardened responses to climate change.

Firstly, there's a lot that we can change without even noticing it in our day-to-day lives. Driving around London in a 4 litre SUV may well be big, but it's not clever; a VW Touraeg will go no faster than a VW Touran in London traffic, neither will it afford it any more crash protection at 15mph. Or indeed, a 2 litre Touraeg with permanent two-wheel-drive if you must have a big car. Flying from London to Paris "just because" when the train is actually a far more pleasant experience and now almost as quick is again something bizarre.

Secondly, I don't like the way some governments are all too keen to shift the onus onto the individual when it comes to climate change. I suppose it's easier to press down upon individuals, who won't leave the country and take their money with them, as opposed to footloose companies who, in the absence of binding emissions controls and targets, can decide to leave, with unemployment and urban decline in their wake. Whilst the political wrangling over such a scheme would clearly be on a tremendous scale, having a policy that is other than universal is arguably useless, because in order to preserve the current market situation there needs to be a level playing field with regards to emissions; if all participate then no country loses out in terms of a strategic business advantage.

Thirdly, it irritates me slightly that when the slightest deviation from the basic principle of climate change happens ("oh look! it's SNOWING! yes, that's right, it's cold!") many people, especially some of those who are obviously against it for reasons other than those of scientific discussion, start crowing that climate change is clearly some kind of fallacy, as though one snowflake is enough to condemn a broadly accepted scientific theory; it could be... but in these circumstances it isn't. I think again the big names in climate change have a lot to do with it; the use of 'global warming' in particular is perhaps misleading when used as a term in the media, as the impression people are left with is one which suggests that everywhere is just going to get hotter and hotter and hotter... and that's it.

I had lunch in the middle of that post, so apologies in advance if it doesn't all add up!

[Edited 2008-01-22 07:10:18]
 
wingnut767
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:52 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
I'm not going to go out and buy an SUV just to spite them like some do. That's just stupid and childish.

I do not do it to spite them. i do it to give my family the safest vehicle that I can.

Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
In a few of the other threads I have noticed something which I found quite troublesome, as I have never personally met anyone who shares that ideology

If you are talking about the global warming threads you have to differentiate between the two. The politically run Global Warming and the religious zeal that it is being prosecuted just does not pass the smell test with many people. And the discussion is far from over no matter what AL Bore or Klaus tells us.I Imagine that most who post against the MMGW crowd love the environment and want to protect. I just think that the possible trillions that could be cost by the charade could be spent on better projects and in better ways. So do not confuse the two. Being against the Anthropogenic global warming does not mean we do not want to protect the environment. After all CO2 is not a pollutant.

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 4):
I think part of the reason some people dislike environmentalists is some, not all mind you, are so aggressive in trying to get their point across that it becomes annoying.

Sounds like the fundamentalist of a certain religion that the lefties keep complaining about. To many environmentalism has become their religion....

I am a former member of Audobon, WWF and nature conservancy. But the exrtremist that are running many of these groups and their political and idealogical agendas have led many of them away from the mainstream
 
RJdxer
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:58 pm



Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 4):
That's pretty much my attitude. I don't try to harm the environment, I don't throw crap on the ground and whatnot, but I also don't try to live a Green lifestyle by any means. For those that do, all the power to them.

Pretty much sums up my lifestyle. I try and save electricity where I can, but that is to put money in my wallet. I ride a motorcycle to work most days, but on those days where the weather is inclement, I drive my truck and don't think twice about it.

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 9):
If you are talking about the global warming threads you have to differentiate between the two.

Absolutely.

As my profile says, I enjoy back country hiking and slot canyoneering so I have an interest in the environment. Locally, here in Houston and even across the U.S. one thing that bothers me is how far behind Europeans we are in recycling old neighborhoods. Rather than slowly buy up old dilapidated houses and remodeling or rebuilding on the land, developers insist on cutting down huge swaths of forest and building new neighborhoods. That bothers me and is one of the reasons we didn't even look at any new developments when we bought our home. Our house is almost 30 years old and we are slowly but surely remodeling and replacing everything from the inside out. I wish more people would do that.
 
AirCop
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:27 pm



Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 9):
I do not do it to spite them. i do it to give my family the safest vehicle that I can.

Not knowing what kind of SUV that you drive, but according to the stats( insurance/state traffic collision) SUV's aren't the safest vehicle around.
 
j_hallgren
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:27 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
Kennedy keeps blocking the windmill generation project, because the wind mills will hurt his views from his home in Hyannis, MA. Kennedy wants you to use those mercury filled low energy light bulbs.

I wonder what their carbon foot print numbers are?

Totally agree with this! As someone who lives seasonally on Cape Cod and who'd likely be able to see the windmills from end of my street, I think he's totally off the mark here...if he would support the windmills there, I might have at least a negative 80% respect for him but as of now, it's totally 100% negative...and I just HATE those new light bulbs! Ok, so I have a few, but they just don't work for me due to some of the following reasons:
1) Very slow to turn on and get bright in cold weather...If I'm flicking on outside light to see what's there, I don't want to have to wait 2 minutes before it's fully on, as can happen in near or sub-freezing weather,
2) They cause AM radio and cordless phone interence so I can't have these anywhere near them...I've tried various brands and they all do it...I have to have radio in next room to get decent reception.
3) They aren't same size as old bulbs so existing (vintage) clip-on light shades don't work, and these are needed to keep period look of the rooms.
4) They don't give the same more yellowish glow to a room and thus makes it look too industrial
5) In a couple of cases, I use the light to keep some places minimal extra warmth, and the new ones don't generate the needed heat.
6) They don't have the ability to simulate a flickering candle as needed in some lighting situations.
 
cfalk
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:33 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
it is almost as they would rather pave the entire Alaskan wilderness into a parking lot just because and look down on you as not nearly as manly enough if you order a side of salad with your steak or don't strangle at least a puppy or kitty each day.

You exaggerate, and that is precisely why many people have contempt for what environmentalists say. Environmentalists of various kinds have been the Chicken Littles of the world for over a century. Read the New York Times headlines over the past 120 years or so, and you'll see that every 20-30 years or so they get on a big Global Cooling or Global Warming kick, predicting doom and disaster every time. Only now they have gotten a bit smarter - they used to say that doom was imminent, within just 2 or 3 years sometimes. Now they say it's a decades away. That makes it harder for people to see through the whole sham.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
It is not that people have contempt for the environment, most people love the environment and want to save it.

Exactly. We don't have contempt for the environment. We have contempt for a lot of you "environmentalists" though.

Environmentalism has become a BUSINESS. It sells papers and TV advertising. It gets people to invest in fraudulent schemes like Al Gore's Carbon Offset company. These guys are laughing all the way to the bank, shaking their heads in wonder at how easy it is to separate fools and their money by creating fear.

And one of the ironies is that these are often the same people who accuse the Bush administration for "Politics of Fear". Amazing.

Just shut the apocalyptic loons up, and stop treating environmentalism as a tool for feeling sanctimonious over anyone who disagrees with you (and that is the prime motivator behind 95% of "environmentalists" - the other 5% are motivated by money). Your opening post shows you clearly to be one of the 95%. You see anyone who does not agree with you as evil slayers of puppy dogs.

That said:

I am a firm believer in reducing mankind's environmental impact. Surprised, considering what I said above? You shouldn't be. It all makes perfect sense.

- Breathing this pollution crap can't be good for us.
- I like to go out in the countryside, and I don't like the fact that there is less and less of it around, and that some people don't seem to have a problem using the whole world as their personal garbage dump.
- I don't want to send my money to the Saudis and Hugo Chavez for oil.
- Know that global warming (whether or not man is responsible for it) will cause a lot of hardship and unwelcome migration, and even if we are not strictly responsible for it, our pollution certainly doesn't help and at least contributes in some way.
- I try to ensure that my home is well insulated and use energy-saving devices as much as I can. Partly to save money but partly simply to do the right thing.
- The cars I buy are the size and power I need, and not more. I have grown out of the need to have 400hp cars and 4WD when I live in town.
- I have invested money in companies that are heavily involved in Fusion research, which is the final solution to energy scarcity and the need to use fossil fuels.
- I recycle as much as I can and avoid buying stuff where the manufacturer obviously went nuts on packaging (kinda hard in the US, but you try.)

Ironically, Dopey environmentalists hate fusion - they seem to think we should all eat nuts and berries and simply live with nature like in the good old days. Right, in the good old days, life expectancy was about 35 and two thirds of your kids died in infancy. No thanks.

I am pretty certain that my environmental footprint is nothing to be ashamed of, considering where I live and all that. There simply is not that much left for me to do much more, within reason.

But don't tell me that, since I don't share your ideology (your own form of Nazism or Islamic fundamentalism) that I am an evil kitten-killer (LOL). You just make your self sound like a complete idiot.
 
baroque
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:37 pm

Well let us all hope that a murderer does not see the light of day and start advocating against murder or there will apparently be a number of a.net members moved to rush out and commit a few themselves. Or at the very least advocate it.

What in heavens name does the hypocrisy or not of any advocate of a particular point of view have to do with the validity of the view itself? Can we not have propositions that are to be judged on their merits and not through a personal demolition campaign in relation to anyone who thing the view is OK?

Is this some strange sort of extension of attack ads?

And what about the folk in glass houses being careful with the heaving of stones?

 Wow!  Wow!  Confused  Confused  Confused
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:39 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
it seems there are some people out there who have an active contempt for the environment,

Mostly it is an active contempt for enviro-whackos telling us all how we should live. Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell hippies to bathe and listen to better music.

Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
they would rather pave the entire Alaskan wilderness into a parking lot

I have wanted to do this with my yard.. no mowing.
 
wingnut767
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:55 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 13):
You exaggerate, and that is precisely why many people have contempt for what environmentalists say. Environmentalists of various kinds have been the Chicken Littles of the world for over a century. Read the New York Times headlines over the past 120 years or so, and you'll see that every 20-30 years or so they get on a big Global Cooling or Global Warming kick, predicting doom and disaster every time. Only now they have gotten a bit smarter - they used to say that doom was imminent, within just 2 or 3 years sometimes. Now they say it's a decades away. That makes it harder for people to see through the whole sham.

It also menas that when they are proven wrong they will no longer be around

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 13):
Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):it is almost as they would rather pave the entire Alaskan wilderness into a parking lot just because and look down on you as not nearly as manly enough if you order a side of salad with your steak or don't strangle at least a puppy or kitty each day.

You exaggerate, and that is precisely why many people have contempt for what environmentalists say.

Bingo

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 13):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
It is not that people have contempt for the environment, most people love the environment and want to save it.

Exactly. We don't have contempt for the environment. We have contempt for a lot of you "environmentalists" though.

Environmentalism has become a BUSINESS. It sells papers and TV advertising. It gets people to invest in fraudulent schemes like Al Gore's Carbon Offset company. These guys are laughing all the way to the bank, shaking their heads in wonder at how easy it is to separate fools and their money by creating fear.

Yachtzee

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 13):
And one of the ironies is that these are often the same people who accuse the Bush administration for "Politics of Fear". Amazing.

Jackpot

Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):
What in heavens name does the hypocrisy or not of any advocate of a particular point of view have to do with the validity of the view itself? Can we not have propositions that are to be judged on their merits and not through a personal demolition campaign in relation to anyone who thing the view is OK?

Is this some strange sort of extension of attack ads?

And what about the folk in glass houses being careful with the heaving of stones?


Why do you not ask Klaus? He is the first to attack the messenger without reading the message on any anti Alarmist thread. I guess that is the glass house you are talking about??
 
Continental
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:15 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 6):

Anybody in particular you have in mind?

Not as extreme as the thread poster's explanation, but:

https://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/1699355/

Reply 15: "I'm sick of it now and as a sign of protest I went out and found a good deal on a real planet-killer. And I think I'll go out and find another one to replace my wife's 37mpg Ford Escort."
 
Pyrex
Topic Author
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:18 pm



Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 9):
If you are talking about the global warming threads you have to differentiate between the two.

I am not (didn't even know those were around). The ones that come more recently to mind are the whaling and the Michael Vick "it is a travesty, he is innocent, the dogs were his he can do whatever the hell he wants" threads.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 5):
When has anyone here demonstrated a view this extreme?

The exaggeration was obviously a figure of speech. However, the bullshit macho attitudes about the environment unfortunately are not.

Quoting Queso (Reply 6):
Anybody in particular you have in mind?

Yes.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 13):
- I have invested money in companies that are heavily involved in Fusion research, which is the final solution to energy scarcity and the need to use fossil fuels.

Which companies are those? (I am just asking out of curiosity - I am a big supporter of fusion but didn't know that, besides the mega-effort hopefully going on in Cadarache there were private companies doing their own thing, just sounds like too much of a risk for a VC to back).

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 13):
Ironically, Dopey environmentalists hate fusion - they seem to think we should all eat nuts and berries and simply live with nature like in the good old days.

I am not sure they hate fusion (some might do but in general I believe that is an overstatement - I think even the most idealist person out there does not believe than in 20 years all our power will come from the wind). I believe the main problem is that there is a total lack of awareness regarding fusion - no-one in the general population really knows what it can promise and what the current state of the technology is.*

*just reminded - dang! I was supposed to watch a lecture on nuclear fusion today but just woke up late  Sad
 
Arrow
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:41 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
It is not that people have contempt for the environment, most people love the environment and want to save it. They just have different views on how to do that. The science on global warming isn't all in yet, many believe we are in a natueral cycle (which Earth has had many of). A lot of people remember these same people screaming about globval warming today, were screaming about the dangers of global cooling in the 1970s. A new ice age was coming.



Quoting IH8BY (Reply 8):
Sadly, many of these so-called environmentalists are indeed full of hypocrisy and are hoping to make a quick buck out of people's environmental fears (I have not seen the Gore film, so I cannot comment directly on its content).

My biggest problem with environmental groups is their penchant for taking something that has grain of truth to it, and blowing it so far out of proportion that you can hardly recognize it. This is compounded by a media that is highly suspicious of anything the corporate world might say (as it should be), but gives the enviros a free ride to tell all manner of lies and exaggerations with little in the way of critical analysis. I see this time and time again in my own investigations as a journalist.

Also, the enviros have decided that the only successful campaigns they will undertake will be against big bad corporations -- not the consumers who buy their products. Example: It is widely recognized in North America that we burn too much gasoline in our vehicles by either a) using them too much, or b) driving gas guzzlers. But while enviros will cheerfully blockade an Exxon oil tanker, they would not dream of blockading an LA freeway.

This approach allows us all to tut-tut about the need to reduce energy consumption, but never have to confront the serious lifestyle changes necessary to achieve that goal. And when the Greenpeace campaigner knocks on the door looking for money, he/she won't ever be confronted by someone who's day was ruined by a recent blockade.

Want an example of what that kind of hypocrisy has done to us? There are countless government regulations to make sure that our food never has anything more than infinitessimally small trace elements of a variety of so-called carcinogenic chemicals (you know, the ones that when fed in humoungous quantities to a thousand rats caused cancer in three of them). But salt -- which has been known for decades to be a major contributing factor in hypertension and heart disease -- has no restrictions on it whatsoever. Don't believe me? Next time you pick up a can of soup in the supermarket, chech the ingredients label for salt. This is ALL because environmentalists have hijacked the agenda to make sure their own pet causes are uppermost in peoples minds.

Enjoy your soup.
 
Queso
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:29 pm



Quoting Continental (Reply 17):
Not as extreme as the thread poster's explanation, but:
Edwards: "Americans Need To Sacrafice SUVs" (by UAXDXer Aug 29 2007 in Non Aviation)

Reply 15: "I'm sick of it now and as a sign of protest I went out and found a good deal on a real planet-killer. And I think I'll go out and find another one to replace my wife's 37mpg Ford Escort."

Shhhhh. Let Pyrex answer it.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 18):
Yes.

Who?
 
skyservice_330
Posts: 1574
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2000 6:50 am

RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:57 pm



Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 4):
Quoting Pyrex (Thread starter):
I would at the very least expect someone to feel neutral about it.

That's pretty much my attitude. I don't try to harm the environment, I don't throw crap on the ground and whatnot, but I also don't try to live a Green lifestyle by any means. For those that do, all the power to them.

 checkmark  My thoughts exactly. I try to turn off lights when I can, reduce energy consumption where I can, reduce driving when I can, don't litter, and generally try to respect the environment. That said, I would not identify as 'green' or say I live a green lifestyle.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 1):
I'd say, many people dislike or distrust particular environmentalists.

Bingo. The question remains though, which seems to motivate this thread, is does this dislike for environmentalists somehow manifest itself into contempt or a dislike for the environment among some people?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 13):
I am a firm believer in reducing mankind's environmental impact.

 checkmark  As am I.
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:50 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 18):
Which companies are those? (I am just asking out of curiosity - I am a big supporter of fusion but didn't know that, besides the mega-effort hopefully going on in Cadarache there were private companies doing their own thing, just sounds like too much of a risk for a VC to back).

VC Does indeed back it up, but still on a very limited scale. There are a lot of scams out there. My whole family has invested in a private fund that specializes in this sort of investment, but it's one of those investments where either you lose the whole thing (90% probable) or you make an absolute killing - in 20 years.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 18):
I am not sure they hate fusion (some might do but in general I believe that is an overstatement - I think even the most idealist person out there does not believe than in 20 years all our power will come from the wind).

http://www.greenpeace.org/internatio...l/press/releases/ITERprojectFrance

Quote:
Paris, France — Greenpeace deplores the agreement by the Representatives of the Parties to the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor (ITER) (1) to construct one of the world's largest nuclear fusion experiments in Cadarache, Southern France.

...

Fusion energy - if it would ever operate - would create a serious waste problem, would emit large amounts of radioactive material and could be used to produce materials for nuclear weapons. A whole new set of nuclear risks would thus be created.

"Governments should not waste our money on a dangerous toy which will never deliver any useful energy," said Jan Vande Putte of Greenpeace International. Instead, they should invest in renewable energy which is abundantly available, not in 2080 but today"

They just don't understand what a tremendous leap forward fusion power would be for the human race. Not to mention the fact that they appear to be woefully misinformed.
 
Arrow
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:57 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 22):
They just don't understand what a tremendous leap forward fusion power would be for the human race. Not to mention the fact that they appear to be woefully misinformed.

I'm completely uninformed when it comes to the potential of fusion power -- but my experience with many of these groups, including Greenpeace, is that they will make up and invent whatever scenarios or set of "facts" they need to support the conclusions they've already reached -- and nothing; not science, not reason, not contrary evidence, will shake them from their belief. It staggers me that they've been able to get away with this unchallenged for so long.
 
slider
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:30 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 7):
I don't have contempt for the environment.

I have contempt for several environmentalists.

Exactly my opinion as well.

I would guarantee that as a conservationist and outdoorsman, someone who was raised with the respect for nature, wildlife and ecology in general, I’m more responsible than the do-gooding limp-wristed mealy-mouthed preachy holier-than-thou leftists and enviro-cultists that scream for saving the planet.

I don’t have contempt for the environment, but I despise, truly despise, the continued hypocrisy and outright intellectual disingenuousness of these charlatans like Algore who make their case on emotion and rhetoric and, what is becoming more widely known, questionable scientific basis
 
Pyrex
Topic Author
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:47 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 20):
Shhhhh. Let Pyrex answer it.

I already answered that (reply 18), at least for people with a grasp of the concept of irony. You would have seen that reply if you hadn't just rushed into the personal attacks as soon as he posted.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 22):
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 18):
I am not sure they hate fusion (some might do but in general I believe that is an overstatement - I think even the most idealist person out there does not believe than in 20 years all our power will come from the wind).

http://www.greenpeace.org/internatio...rance

Well, I sure as hell missed that one. Regardless, I hope ITER is a big success, it is just a shame that it is not more widely publicised (you would be surprised how very few people, including those supposedly connected to alternative energy, know about it).

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 22):
My whole family has invested in a private fund that specializes in this sort of investment, but it's one of those investments where either you lose the whole thing (90% probable) or you make an absolute killing - in 20 years.

Well, I hope you make the killing- Not just for yourself and your family but for mankind (oh, how I dream of the day when I can turn to a Middle East royal, extend both my middle fingers and just scream out of the top of my lungs "screw you guys"...)
 
EvilForce
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:20 pm

Frankly it doesn't much matter these days what the US Govt decides to do or not do. The past 7 years of absolutely zero leadership on the issue has left America listless and without a clear goal.

However, our private sector companies like GE, 3M, Intel, Cummins Diesel and other companies are innovating green technology because they realize that they will be at a disadvantage if they don't. These companies derive a majority of their sales outside of the USA, so have embraced environmental consideration for their products and services.

Gas prices have soared post 9/11 because Bush decided to only worry about Iraq. The best thing for the environment would be for gasoline to hit $5 a gallon here in the USA. Even gas at $3 and $ 3.50 is making people rethink their lifestyle choices. Personally I don't care if someone drives a vehicle that gets 8 mpg. I just have no sympathy for them either when they complain about high gas prices. Gas is cheap. Even at $ 3.50 a gallon it's not all that expensive comparatively.

A number of home builders are also building houses with "green" materials exclusively. Adding solar power, instant on hot water heaters instead of tanks, not using VOC containing materials, and other such measures. Its one of the hottest segments of the market currently.

Honda has a true fuel cell vehicle on the market right now. We could have spent the $1.5 trillion we've spent in Iraq on helping these technologies along but didn't. That's the beauty of free markets, it will fix what ails it. Unfortunately, it will probably be a bit painful in the short term as people have to get used to $3.50, $4 or $5 gasoline, but they'll adjust. Our govt decided to sit on the sidelines in helping with this switch, so what more can you do?

[Edited 2008-01-22 15:22:16]
 
Queso
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:21 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 25):
You would have seen that reply if you hadn't just rushed into the personal attacks as soon as he posted.

Personal attacks? OK, SD them. My deepest, sincere, and most heartfelt apologies.

Oh, BTW, as was mentioned in the above linked thread, I did go ahead and buy another pickup and we parked my wife's Ford Escort. The pickup has a 4.6 liter V-8, a 30 gallon gas tank and it gets about 17 miles per gallon. She drives it about 40 miles each day except on the weekends she drives it down to Mexico and that's about 550-600 miles round-trip. Just thought you might like to know.

Enjoy the picture. My wife sure does enjoy driving it.



I plan to buy another pickup for my daughter who will begin driving in the next couple of months. She wants her truck to have a 4" lift and 40" tires... what's a father to do?  Wink I'll post a picture of that one when I buy it, too.
 
Pyrex
Topic Author
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:39 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 28):
She wants her truck to have a 4" lift and 40" tires

40´´ tires?  Wow! Does she intend to start an open-air mine in your backyard? I would be concerned about the roses if I were you...
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:51 pm



Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 9):
I do not do it to spite them. i do it to give my family the safest vehicle that I can.

And if that's your reasoning, I have no problem with that (though I agree with AirCop that SUVs may not be as safe as you perceive them to be).

But I have heard people (not necessarily on here) claim that they're going to buy a gas guzzler just to spite Gore, Kennedy, the Democrats, Ralph Nader, etc.

Quoting Queso (Reply 28):
She wants her truck to have a 4" lift and 40" tires... what's a father to do?

Say no? That's always an option.  Smile

-Mir
 
Queso
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:28 pm

RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:56 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 29):
40´´ tires? Does she intend to start an open-air mine in your backyard?

Naw, it's just a fad around here with her friends, similar to the way man-made global warming is a fad among the "holier than thou's".

To answer your question more directly Pyrex, I have no contempt for the environment, but I have an extreme contempt for those who buy into the misguided message of people who want to make a name for themselves by misleading others due to their own position of influence, especially when they stand to profit from it.

The argument some alleged "scientists" and politicians have made is not convincing enough to those of us that still have a good measure of common sense to make us give up our "planet-killing machines". All the BS presented as "science" just doesn't add up.

Take a flight over the Western US, the Outback of Australia or the wild lands of Africa and look down at the endless expanse of nothing but vegetation. Look at a road map some time. Why do you even need a road map? The way some people make it sound the whole world is paved and cars are stacked up bumper to bumper spewing out billions of tons of atmosphere-killing chemicals all the time. That may be how the "world" seems to those in densely-populated areas but I can tell you there are miles and miles and miles of grass, trees, and other vegetation out there where there are no roads and they vastly outnumber cars and they are busy exchanging CO2 for O2 all of the time. The planet is 2/3 covered with water and the evaporation cycle also balances out the CO2 ratios, no matter how out of whack they may get. It's all balanced out.

We couldn't destroy the planet even if we tried and those who are arrogant enough to think that we can are the ones who need to reevaluate that we truly are less than a flea on an elephant's ass when it comes to trying to understand the atmosphere on a planetary level.

I just wish people would stop being sheep and buying into the latest political fad. If Al Gore was preaching "save the whales" instead of "global warming" we wouldn't even be discussing this as an issue.
 
IH8BY
Posts: 786
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:22 am



Quoting Queso (Reply 31):
some alleged "scientists"

Some might consider that statement a little bold really (unless you narrow it down), even insulting to the many respected scientists who, way before attention-seeking failed politicians were making career-saving films, had stressed the potential influence humans could have on global climate patterns. There are corporate interests at stake behind much of the research being conducted now, so it's hard to put trust in either side of the debate, but your suggestion as I understand it (and I may be wrong - was there anyone in particular that you had in mind?) that we write off those who have produced thorough and considerable research as "alleged "scientists"" is baffling, and your refusal even to consider this research as valid equally so.

Quoting Queso (Reply 31):
We couldn't destroy the planet even if we tried

No. But
a. we could give it a fairly good go (!)
b. we could (and have come close to in the past) destroy the civilisations we value so highly.

What's alarming to me about human influenced climate change is not what will happen (as much of that is likely to happen at some point in time anyway, as others have pointed out), but the way in which it could* happen, and whether or not we can adapt quickly enough to an unprecedented rate and style of change. It seems to me prudent to pursue a more careful course than in the past with regard to our impact on the environment, if only to buy more time for us to adapt should the predictions of a considerable number of scientists be proved correct. In a way that's why I've stated that I favour universal (but appropriate) measures, if only because then we can maintain a balanced market without particular parties manipulating potential crisis into a business advantage; keeping the playing field as level (or otherwise) as usual.

*I don't believe that theories on human influenced climate change are anywhere near a hundred percent sure, but life's all about risk, and I think it's a credible enough risk for us to take measures to counter or (try to) control it.
 
AverageUser
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:00 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 25):
oh, how I dream of the day when I can turn to a Middle East royal, extend both my middle fingers and just scream out of the top of my lungs "screw you guys"...)

I don't think you'll be able to do that for a while, if ever. Oil is used everywhere for almost everything, from fertilizers to cosmetics. This is a worldwide market economy, so you pay the going price or go without. The other alternative is to take "our oil under your feet" at the gunpoint. Yet another alternative is to ask for the coal-owning countties to convert some of their coal for you, and that will not be cheap either.

Quoting Queso (Reply 31):
evaporation cycle also balances out the CO2 ratios, no matter how out of whack they may get. It's all balanced out

You're way confused here. Evaporation does nothing to the CO2. Water (H2O) is what is being circulated in the evaporation cycle, which is also know as the Water Cycle: http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/watercycleevaporation.html

[Edited 2008-01-22 17:13:37]
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:42 am



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 27):
Frankly it doesn't much matter these days what the US Govt decides to do or not do. The past 7 years of absolutely zero leadership on the issue has left America listless and without a clear goal.

Why is it that you expect Government to "do it"? What part of the Constitution makes the federal government in any way responsible?

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 27):
However, our private sector companies like GE, 3M, Intel, Cummins Diesel and other companies are innovating green



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 27):
A number of home builders are also building houses with "green" materials exclusively

As it should be, let the private sector make the money.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 27):
We could have spent the $1.5 trillion we've spent in Iraq on helping these technologies along but didn't.

Defense is the one thing mandated to the federal government by the Constitution yet we aren't supposed to spend any money on it.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 27):
Our govt decided to sit on the sidelines in helping with this switch, so what more can you do?

Be happy. If they would sit on the sidelines even more we'd be that much better off.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 27):
Gas prices have soared post 9/11 because Bush decided to only worry about Iraq.

Of course, ignore China, India, hurricanes and political upheavals, it's all Bush's fault.
 
AverageUser
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Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:21 pm

RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:02 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 34):
What part of the Constitution makes the federal government in any way responsible?

What part of the Constitution again says the Federal Government should not promote any environmental issues?
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:18 am



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 36):
What part of the Constitution again says the Federal Government should not promote any environmental issues?

10th Amendment.
 
N1120A
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:20 am



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 36):

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 34):
What part of the Constitution makes the federal government in any way responsible?

What part of the Constitution again says the Federal Government should not promote any environmental issues?



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 37):

10th Amendment.

Wrong, and that was decided long ago. The Commerce Clause gives the Federal Government major weight behind environmental legislation.
 
EvilForce
Posts: 974
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:12 am

RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:27 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 37):
10th Amendment.

Then that must be the reason that the Federal govt and EPA told the state of California it could not set CO2 limits and mileage standards for vehicles eh? Ooops, guess not. Maybe you want to write your Senator and tell them the govt is violating the 10th amendment.
 
cfalk
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:33 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
Wrong, and that was decided long ago. The Commerce Clause gives the Federal Government major weight behind environmental legislation.

It was decided (by a Supreme Court packed by FDR, whose New Deal legislation kept getting shot down by the previous SC) that the US Government would simply ignore the 10th amendment and basically claim "commerce clause" for everything.

That does not mean it was right. Nor does it mean that the Constitution says you can do it. It just means we've chosen to ignore the Constitution.
 
EvilForce
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:56 am

Thankfully we have the Japanese being proactive with fuel cell technology. It's available right now.  Smile

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/?from=fcx.honda.com
 
Pyrex
Topic Author
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:05 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 34):
As it should be, let the private sector make the money.

Yes, that has always worked in the past, letting the private sector take the lead on environmental issues. I guess it is thanks to them that we've got leadless fuel, catalytic converters, clean water in lakes and rivers, ...  Yeah sure
 
RJdxer
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Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:36 am



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 43):
Yes, that has always worked in the past, letting the private sector take the lead on environmental issues. I guess it is thanks to them that we've got leadless fuel, catalytic converters, clean water in lakes and rivers, ...

Which of those things was developed by the government?
 
CastleIsland
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:48 am

I'd like to go on record that, as an Environmental Scientist, I have not caught much measure of crap on this website (even though I have had to refute some really uneducated posts about volcanic activity being worse than CO2...but that's back a few years ago). If anything, I've had most members respect me for what I do. And that's good to know and experience. For those who do not know, I consult for US EPA to protect potable water and clean up hazardous waste sites.

So, for the record, both conservatives and liberals have treated me very fairly, even when I do not agree with them on a particular subject regarding the environment. At the end of the day, I think all of us love the planet; many of us just don't want to be regulated without particular reason to do so.

Whether I agree with the issues is irrelevant; I do agree with that concept.
 
Pyrex
Topic Author
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RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:53 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 44):
Which of those things was developed by the government?

Which of those would exist today if it weren't for the government basically shoving it down people's throats?
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:40 am



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 46):
Which of those would exist today if it weren't for the government basically shoving it down people's throats?

Again, the difference being that the government, through the commerce clause, has the responsibility to ensure equality among the states, but nowhere in the Constitution does it say that it has a mandate to develop technology. Now if the government wants to give tax incentives to an industry to spend their money on R&D that's one thing. But to spend taxpayer dollars on R&D to just give it to an industry, that's another matter.
 
dc9northwest
Posts: 2270
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:33 am

RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:51 am

I'm not against the environment... But I am against the people who propose we 'go green' (which btw sounds stupid) do not propose any viable alternatives for things we must renounce to make the environment feel well.

Look at it this way... If I had to choose between screwing the environment and never travelling to Europe again, hey, you know what... Just screw it.

I like nature. I hate the buffoons that tell us to preserve nature, but whose ideas mean we can't see it in its beauty. What is the use, I ask?
 
EvilForce
Posts: 974
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:12 am

RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:11 am



Quoting Dc9northwest (Reply 48):
But I am against the people who propose we 'go green' (which btw sounds stupid) do not propose any viable alternatives for things we must renounce to make the environment feel well.

What specifically are you referring to?
 
N1120A
Posts: 27238
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:15 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 40):

It was decided (by a Supreme Court packed by FDR, whose New Deal legislation kept getting shot down by the previous SC) that the US Government would simply ignore the 10th amendment and basically claim "commerce clause" for everything.

You seem to forget that the Court Packing plan was shot down. You also seem to ignore the fact that the 14th Amendment supersedes much of what the 10th Amendment was written for.
 
dc9northwest
Posts: 2270
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:33 am

RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:22 am



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 49):
What specifically are you referring to?

Remember the woman wanting to go from England/UK to Australia without stepping on a plane? Well, many want to save the planet by using impractical solutions to very easy problems. Basically, it's people trying to get others to save the planet by avoiding plane travel (I can understand not flying when you can get there faster by another method of transportation--but come on, the Atlantic, the Pacific?).

I believe another example was that the only route to build a new railway would pass through the only habitat of a rare species of chipmunk (this is hypothetical)... And people would try to stop the construction. And this is the kind of protest I find disconcerting.
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Why The Blatant Contempt For The Environment?

Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:41 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 50):
Quoting Cfalk (Reply 40):

It was decided (by a Supreme Court packed by FDR, whose New Deal legislation kept getting shot down by the previous SC) that the US Government would simply ignore the 10th amendment and basically claim "commerce clause" for everything.


You also seem to ignore the fact that the 14th Amendment supersedes much of what the 10th Amendment was written for.

Now you've done it Cfalk, you got him started on that again.

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