The Official German Autobahn Speedlimit Thread

TheSonntag · Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:52 pm

This is the parallel thread to the US gun 2nd amendmend thread...

Right now discussion takes place whether or not Germany should have a Speed Limit on the Autobahn. Time to discuss, what do you think?

I am STRICTLY AGAINST it. It doesn't help the environment, it does not make roads safer, and it harms the german car industry. Freie Fahrt für freie Bürger!

So, what do you think (views from other countries appreciated!)?

asuflyer05 · Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:53 pm

I'm against it. If I ever decided to spend the money on a BMW, I think I'd use the European Delivery program just so I could pick it up in Germany and drive it on the autobahn.

MYT332 · Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:55 pm

Simply through jealousy I think Germany should impose a horrid speed limit like the rest of Europe Wink

Fiatstilojtd · Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:09 pm

I think they should impose much higher fines for not keeping enough safety distance between the cars and stop with increasing this ridiculous speed-related fines on the Autobahn. On the other hand side I do not want to be one of the police officers who has to go to the parents/relatives etc. after a crash and tell them that one of their loved ones has died because some reckless driving Race-driver-wannabe has crashed into his/her car.

airfoilsguy · Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:14 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Thread starter):

Right now discussion takes place whether or not Germany should have a Speed Limit on the Autobahn.

Why, have there been more accidents lately? I say leave it unlimited unless there is a compelling reason not to.

pelican · Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:15 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Thread starter):
I am STRICTLY AGAINST it. It doesn't help the environment, it does not make roads safer, and it harms the german car industry. Freie Fahrt für freie Bürger!

Amen.

pelican

pelican · Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:17 pm

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 4):

Why, have there been more accidents lately? I say leave it unlimited unless there is a compelling reason not to.

The compelling reason is "global warming"... The social democrats have discovered that speeding causes CO2 emissions and want to reduce them via speed limits.

pelican

SBBRTech · Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:21 pm

If they set a 300 kph speed limit then I'm for it!
What the hell are those Bugatti Veyron and McLaren F1 owners thinking? Wink

But seriously, I think the autobahn is one hell of a tech achievement, why screw that up now?

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 4):
Why, have there been more accidents lately? I say leave it unlimited unless there is a compelling reason not to.

I ask the same thing: Is the accident rate going up over there?

LHStarAlliance · Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:21 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Thread starter):

Well there are some arguments for an speed limit , but still I'm against it .
For example in Spain they have a Speed limit of 120 km/h but 10x more deads in accidents , so a speed limit is not really an improvement in Security.

bwest · Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:24 pm

I'm not against the speed limit, though there are points in favor of it. I suppose your reaction time at 120km/h is a bit faster compared to at 200km/h, and it's true you do waste more gas driving faster. Still, if the government would really want to bring in the ecological view, they might as well allow you to drive as fast as you want, but use a percentage of the extra gas taxes for environmental research.

Quoting TheSonntag (Thread starter):
it harms the german car industry.

This one I don't get...

pelican · Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:30 pm

Quoting Bwest (Reply 9):
I suppose your reaction time at 120km/h is a bit faster compared to at 200km/h,

Why should this happen? Quite the opposite - my reaction time is faster at 200 because I'm more concentrated. Of course the time to react if anything happens is much shorter the faster you drive.

pelican

WrenchBender · Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:31 pm

Consider it another form of Darwinism by not having a speed limit. If people want to really sse how their car performs take it to a track and do it properly. There are too many idiots that end up killing innocent people by racing and stunting on public roads.

WrenchBender

bwest · Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:33 pm

Quoting Pelican (Reply 10):
Quite the opposite - my reaction time is faster at 200 because I'm more concentrated. Of course the time to react if anything happens is much shorter the faster you drive.

Hmm... then maybe you should concentrate when doing 120? Wink

Still... if something pops up in front of your car, 120 or 200 won't make too much of a difference... the bodyparts will just be over a greater distance Smile

TheSonntag · Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:33 pm

I fall asleep if I only drive 120. Thats so boooooring. Now 180 or 200 km/h thats something...

bwest · Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:37 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 13):
I fall asleep if I only drive 120. Thats so boooooring. Now 180 or 200 km/h thats something...

ah, the need for speed... for some reason I don't have that anymore. I used to love speeding, now I just go with the flow... Smile

pelican · Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:40 pm

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 11):
Consider it another form of Darwinism by not having a speed limit. If people want to really sse how their car performs take it to a track and do it properly. There are too many idiots that end up killing innocent people by racing and stunting on public roads.

There is a huge difference between "racing and stunting on public roads" and driving fast on an Autobahn.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 13):
Now 180 or 200 km/h thats something...

Still boring... (depends on the car of course).

pelican

ZakHH · Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:52 pm

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 8):
For example in Spain they have a Speed limit of 120 km/h but 10x more deads in accidents , so a speed limit is not really an improvement in Security.

Hard to believe, but we actually agree on something Wink

I do not see any sense in a general speed limit. As mentioned here, safety can hardly be an aspect. There is a rather low number of fatal high-speed accidents on Autobahn, and most of them would actually be linked to the violation of some other existing rule.

I would opt for more automatic traffic regulation systems, like we have them on some major routes already. Sensors determine the flow and density of traffic, as well as weather condition, and automatically set a speed limit, if needed. That actually helps achieving better traveling speeds. And I prefer being allowed to go 120 kph AND being able to do so, over being allowed 200+, but being able to do only 60, thanks to some traffic jam.

The environmental argument is not totally off-hand, but it is not valid for all cars. If you push your car to the red line, it will produce more CO2. But then, not every car is at the red line when going 200 kph.

Much more CO2 is generated by senseless acceleration. I.e. people who heavily accelerate even though they see that they will have to stop again after a few meters. While I love driving fast, I will never get to understand that. Always thinking by myself that fuel still seems to be too cheap when I see people doing a kick-down to "outrun" me on the 150m race to the next red traffic light...

On long distance trips, my average traveling speed is usually above 150 kph, yet still my average consumption will usually be well below 8 liter per 100 km.

DAL767400ER · Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:53 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Thread starter):
I am STRICTLY AGAINST it. It doesn't help the environment, it does not make roads safer, and it harms the german car industry. Freie Fahrt für freie Bürger!

Preach it brother Big grin

.

Granted, I'm currently most of the time just setting the cruise control to 110-130km/h, but that's simply because I currently go any faster without the additional fuel burning holes in my wallet. And when I feel like it, I want to enjoy the possibility of going to 200 without any problems and just enjoy the ride.

IMHO, instead of a speed limit, we should have more VBAs (Verkehrsbeeinflussungsanlagen) that can be used to limit speed on speed limit-free stretches, e.g. when wheather (rain, snow) requires slower speed, or when there's heavy traffic. That's way more flexible than a general speed limit, and at the same time would also help get the number of accidents lower than it already is. But alas, VBAs COST the state money, and speeding tickets EARN the state money, so those 'tards in Berlin likely will never consider that idea no matter how often the ADAC proposes it Yeah sure

.

TheSonntag · Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:11 pm

Well, but if we get Verkehrsbeeinflussungsanlagen, please use them correctly. Not like on the A61: 200 km of VBA, constantly on 130... Rediculous.

ZakHH · Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:21 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 18):

On the A1 between Bremen and Hamburg, they usually work quite well. Rarely saw them showing a speed limit that was completely off-hand.

Must be the smart northern German engineers who made the difference... Wink

N1120A · Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:45 pm

Quoting Fiatstilojtd (Reply 3):
reckless driving

That should always be enforced and heavily penalized. Speed should not.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 6):
The social democrats have discovered that speeding causes CO2 emissions and want to reduce them via speed limits.

The difference is absolutely minuscule.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 8):
For example in Spain they have a Speed limit of 120 km/h but 10x more deads in accidents , so a speed limit is not really an improvement in Security.

The US also has a higher rate of accidents per capita and deaths per accident, despite most of the country having a speed limit between 100 and 120 km/h

Quoting ZakHH (Reply 16):
On long distance trips, my average traveling speed is usually above 150 kph, yet still my average consumption will usually be well below 8 liter per 100 km.

My car gets better fuel economy at 150 km/h than it does at 100.

Andreas · Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:50 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 13):
I fall asleep if I only drive 120. Thats so boooooring. Now 180 or 200 km/h thats something...

Right exactly the kind of driver we urgently need to speak out loud....it'll make a lot of people agree to a limit!

Quoting SBBRTech (Reply 7):
But seriously, I think the autobahn is one hell of a tech achievement, why screw that up now?

You haven't been to Germany lately, it appears....70 or 80% of our Autobahns are in horrible condition, in fact so horrible that driving faster than 120 km/h is utter madness.

And as of now the government has absolutely NO CLUE how to finance our long-distance motorway system, so I am afraid it won't get better for the time being!

I don't like the general limit either, out of several reasons, the most important being that I think we already have one on 90% or so, and for the rest we don't actually need one, most definitely NOT to keep global warming from happening, but if we don't start managing our roads more efficiently, even more regionla limits will pop up, and not 120, but 80 or so!

Beaucaire · Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:53 pm

Sure there should be a speed-limit : 250 Km / hour...
If you go to countries with speed limits the safety-record on Highways is not better than in Germany.
Driving on a highway with 120 Km/h you fall asleep-that's all !

cfalk · Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:55 pm

Quoting Pelican (Reply 15):
There is a huge difference between "racing and stunting on public roads" and driving fast on an Autobahn.

That's absolutely true. Half of your attention is spent looking for cops, or watching for other drivers who might not expect you, or simply looking for potholes and road imperfections that are ok for normal speeds, and not on your driving. On the autobahn, other drivers observe lane discipline, the roads are smooth, and you aren't squinting into every bush.

N1120A · Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:56 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 22):
Sure there should be a speed-limit : 250 Km / hour...

I vote for 500 km/h Wink

Gives us something to strive for.

Confuscius · Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:04 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 23):
and you aren't squinting into every bush.

What's wrong with that?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 23):
Half of your attention is spent looking for cops, or watching for other drivers who might not expect you, or simply looking for potholes and road imperfections that are ok for normal speeds, and not on your driving.

They drive over there and we multitask here in the states.

oldtimer · Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:07 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Thread starter):
I am STRICTLY AGAINST it. It doesn't help the environment, it does not make roads safer, and it harms the german car industry. Freie Fahrt für freie Bürger!

When I was connected to LHCityline and we were discussing the merits and the downside of speed limits on the Autobahn, he stated that in Germany we (the Germans) do not have accidents, only fatalities. Having driven many thousands of miles in Germany, I have to agree with him.

Oldtimer

N1120A · Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:11 pm

Quoting Oldtimer (Reply 26):
he stated that in Germany we (the Germans) do not have accidents, only fatalities.

Even that isn't true, comparatively.

ltbewr · Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:12 pm

If I am correct, busses and heavy trucks cannot be operated, even on 'unlimited' sections of the Autobahn above 90-100 kms.. As others have suggested expanded use of 'floating' speed limits when the weather, traffic and other conditions can occur should be the rule. I also understand the German driving laws are very strictly enforced as to 'tailgating' (following the car in front of you too close) and to any dangerous driving. I also understand if one gets into an accident and you were going over about 120 kms, you can face dangerous driving charges.
While I know the standards required to qualify for a driver's license in Germany is much stricter than most of the world, that doesn't mean you have the skills to drive above 150 or more or even 125 kms.. As it stands now, I would be legal, with a New Jersey State Drivers license, to rent a performance car and drive well over my experience and abilities (130-140 kms) and while legal

Fiatstilojtd · Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:31 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 28):
that doesn't mean you have the skills to drive above 150 or more or even 125 kms.. As it stands now, I would be legal, with a New Jersey State Drivers license, to rent a performance car and drive well over my experience and abilities (130-140 kms) and while legal

Bingo, that hits the nail on the head LTBEWR

Example 1: Imagine Mr. G. Sieger sen. (Boss of the Driving-Squad inside the Cobra Special Force in Austria, highly trained etc.) driving or lets better say controlling a BMW 5-Series on the Autobahn at high speed and on the other hand side our commuter-in-the-know Myt332 driving an identical rental car which he only knows since a few hours - everything might go on well on a sunny day and an empty Autobahn, but what happens when there is a critical situation. In Myt332 that would be a disaster waiting to happen whereas a high trained professional like Mr. Sieger can avoid that disaster due to his training, experience etc.

Example 2: Two Manager drive identical cars (lets keep the example BMW 5-Series

) at high speed. One of them only uses the car within Germany where at least most of the roads are good, the other one drives the car for example to Romania as well where the Roads outside the Main Cities (if even existing) are sh*t, nothing else, which slowly but steady destroys the suspension etc. of even the best quality cars around. Again if everything goes on well, nothing will happen, but if they have to brake, runaround an obstacle, the guy with the car which has a slightly damaged suspension etc. is in trouble...and you might not even notice that you have a problem with it until it is too late.

[Edited 2008-01-25 09:43:49]

LTU932 · Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:15 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Thread starter):
Right now discussion takes place whether or not Germany should have a Speed Limit on the Autobahn. Time to discuss, what do you think?

Never in hell! The Autobahn is a German institution which for many years has never had a general speed limit. The roads were designed with high speed in mind, and if we install a general speed limit on the Bundesautobahn, we'd be wasting those capabilities. And if the treehuggers just complain about emmisions, just make the cars more economical and environmentally friendlier, but don't punish us with a general speed limit. German drivers, from my experience, have been pretty responsible. Even without such a general speedlimit, the general accident rate on the Autobahn isn't any higher than in countries with such a limit. Having only a Richtgeschwindigkeit or maximum recommended speed is enough.

Freie Fahrt für freie Bürger, NIEMALS ein allgemeines Tempolimit auf der Autobahn!

SBBRTech · Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:14 pm

Quoting Andreas (Reply 21):
You haven't been to Germany lately, it appears....70 or 80% of our Autobahns are in horrible condition, in fact so horrible that driving faster than 120 km/h is utter madness.

Well, it's been like 8 yrs or something...but I'm sure whatever you call "horrible condition" would get the Highway Maintenance Award of the Year around here. Wink

I recall talking to this guy in the early 90's who lived (on purpose as he said) almost 90 km away from his job just to hit the autobahn at full speed everyday....a serious case of speed addiction (and lack of brains) no doubt.

SkyGourmet · Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:13 pm

I read an interesting proposal in a German newspaper. The idea is that you can drive over 130 km per hour if your car emits less than 130 g of carbon dioxide per km. Obviously this wasn't meant quite seriously but I actually think it's a very good idea.

LH526 · Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:20 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Thread starter):
Right now discussion takes place whether or not Germany should have a Speed Limit on the Autobahn. Time to discuss, what do you think?

Helpless leftist social bullshit!!!

Nuff said!

Banco · Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:25 pm

Quoting SkyGourmet (Reply 32):
I read an interesting proposal in a German newspaper. The idea is that you can drive over 130 km per hour if your car emits less than 130 g of carbon dioxide per km. Obviously this wasn't meant quite seriously but I actually think it's a very good idea.

Except that you'd thenhave all the cars designed and built to be safe at high speed going slowly, and the tin boxes with skinny tyres hacking it along. Not exactly ideal, wherever you set the benchmark.

Didn't I read Angela Merkel flatly refusing to consider this idea? There's no real need to make such a change. No other country could implement de-restricted roads, it'd be carnage, but the Germans have grown up with it and are used to it. Just leave alone.

SkyGourmet · Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:30 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 34):
[...] cars designed and built to be safe at high speed going slowly, and the tin boxes with skinny tyres hacking it along

Well the entertainment value alone would be worth it Smile

Fiatstilojtd · Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:37 pm

Quoting SkyGourmet (Reply 35):

Well the entertainment value alone would be worth it

But not the death toll Yeah sure

LTU932 · Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:18 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 34):
Didn't I read Angela Merkel flatly refusing to consider this idea? There's no real need to make such a change. No other country could implement de-restricted roads, it'd be carnage, but the Germans have grown up with it and are used to it. Just leave alone.

If we can trust Angie with her non-consideration for a general speed limit, then there's still hope that this will be dropped, just as plans for introducing a general Maut (Toll) through toll booths à la France, Italy or US, or a toll system similar to Switzerland and Austria, with a Vignette, were dropped. The only toll system Germany has is Toll-Collect, a mileage based toll system for lorries with a max gross weight of 12 metric tonnes or higher and vehicles with a minimum total weight of 12 metric tonnes, used for what we call LKW-Maut.

Super80DFW · Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:38 am

Maybe I'm just ignorant, but I thought the Autobahn was meant to have NO speedlimit. Also, is there more car accidents on the Autobahn than there is on a typical U.S. Interstate?

FlyboyOz · Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:04 am

All of you who said that 300 kph speed limit is cool.

You can't compare between the cars and the planes. That's really fast. The plane take off on the runways at speed 250-300 kph but your car doesn't have wings to fly. We can drive under 130kph not 250-300kph because the cars are not airplanes.

Banco · Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:46 am

Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 39):
The plane take off on the runways at speed 250-300 kph but your car doesn't have wings to fly. We can drive under 130kph not 250-300kph because the cars are not airplanes.

Cars capable of those speeds do in effect have wings, but they're inverted to keep them on the ground. It's downforce, and very common, indeed absolutely necessary, in supercars. For the same reason, F1 cars are supposedly capable of being driven along the ceiling without coming unstuck - well, until you brake... Wink

ACDC8 · Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:08 am

Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 38):

Maybe I'm just ignorant, but I thought the Autobahn was meant to have NO speedlimit. Also, is there more car accidents on the Autobahn than there is on a typical U.S. Interstate?

The Autobahn for the most part has no speedlimit, there are sections such as heavily congested areas, windy parts or where visibility is obscured (i.e. lots of hills) where there are speedlimits, usually between 100km/h - 120km/h. The 130km/h rule, is the recommended speed, however, you can drive faster if conditions allow it.

The Autobahn is one of the safest roads to drive on, there are fewer accidents on the Autobahn (Germany in general despite higher speedlimits) then there are in North America. We had a discussion on this a while back, I provided a bunch of links (too tired to search for it) showing that even with increasing traffic on German roads, accidents and fatalities are considerably less in Germany than in North America. Also, some 85% of the accidents on the Autobahn are at speeds of 100km/h or less. Also, trucks/buses are limited to a maximum of 100km/h at all times.

Driver's training in Germany is much more intense then it is here, vehicle safety standards are extremely strict (all vehicles must pass an inspection every two years and even the slightest modifications on the vehicle must be approved by TUV). The rules of the road are simple and are all enforced (not just pick and choose as they do here), so if you linger in the left lane, be prepared to be pulled over with a nice fine.

Personally, I don't feel they should put a speedlimit on it, but I do agree that it will save a lot of fuel consumption in the long run.

LTU932 · Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:18 am

Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 38):
Maybe I'm just ignorant, but I thought the Autobahn was meant to have NO speedlimit.

Only local, security based, construction required, or noise related (if the road is in the middle of highly populated and doesn't have noise protection walls) ones. If you see this sign in the Autobahn, it means that any prior restriction has been lifted, including speedlimits unless otherwise signed.

Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 38):
Also, is there more car accidents on the Autobahn than there is on a typical U.S. Interstate?

In a nutshell: No.

wilco737 · Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:25 am

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO, I dont want a speed limit! Why did I buy a car which can go 260 km/h and then they dont let me anymore Sad

And it doesnt help the environment a lot! Farting cows are a lot worse than the cars...

WILCO737 (MD11F)
airplane

ACDC8 · Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:30 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 42):
construction required

Forgot those pesky construction zones. Mind you, the speedlimit in construction zones are still higher then most highways here though .... lol!

The A3 was just awful between a OB and F back in 99-02. Probably just as bad as the A2 between OB and BI up until 2005.

Francoflier · Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:05 am

Limiting speed in the name of reducing carbon emissions is absolutely proposterous...

The fact that there aren't any speed limits o most of the autobahns doesn't mean that everybody drives along at 250 kph on there... Now I don't have much experience driving on any autobahns, but I believe that the huge majority of users drive at a respectably lower speed than that, say around 140-160.
Implementing that speed limit would do very little (if anything at all) in terms of emission control.

But then again, it's not hard to see through any government's crap: the only reason they want those is to enforce them and fine speeders. It seems to work weel enough for their french neighbours... irked

Trying to disguise a money making scheme as a planet-saving one is disgusting.

Dear German drivers, prepare for the invasion of the:

...All in the name of saving the planet, of course...

Yeah sure

UTA_flyinghigh · Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:26 am

What speed limit ?

Signed,

Runway23

DAL767400ER · Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:01 pm

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 45):
Now I don't have much experience driving on any autobahns, but I believe that the huge majority of users drive at a respectably lower speed than that, say around 140-160.

That's very true. There are always a few drivers that really push their car, but from experience I'd say 9 out of 10 drivers keep their speed below 170kph.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 42):
or noise related (if the road is in the middle of highly populated and doesn't have noise protection walls) ones.

If only it was in highly populated areas, seems that all too often those noise-related pop up in areas that are only densly populated by cows Yeah sure

.

LTU932 · Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:09 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 47):
If only it was in highly populated areas, seems that all too often those noise-related pop up in areas that are only densly populated by cows

I recall the A24 when entering it from its starting point in Hamburg has those noise walls and a speedlimit of 80, yet you're right that it's pointless because that part, at most, is closer to the cementary in Jenfeld than any really densely populated area. The speedlimit then goes higher until there is none for the next 150 km or so, but if you have those noise walls, and with how silent cars have become nowadays, you could certainly go 130 at that part of the road until ending the speedlimit.

DAL767400ER · Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:52 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 48):
The speedlimit then goes higher until there is none for the next 150 km or so,

If only. The noise limit now go out some 10 km east of the A1/A24 interchange and after that, there's still some 20 km of 100 simply because the roadway is in a pathetic condition. But yeah, noise-related, there shouldn't be any limits once the A24 leaves Hamburg, but alas, that's sadly not the case.

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