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TedTAce
Topic Author
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:48 pm

Ok, I'm not really sure I'm willing to give up my almost reasonable life in the greater KTYS area, but the thought has occurred to me that there has to be a better place to live in then the US. Oh yes I can hear the US Xenophobes piping up along with emigres about how the US is the best country in the world, and I have to say that there are some things that make them correct. But I look at my life, the lack of opportunities, the quality of my life, the quality of education available to my kids at a reasonable cost, politics, the abortion that is the US Healthcare system, and I wonder if there isn't something better out there? I know it's got to be impossible to find a style of government that isn't in some way or another as messed up as the US is, but could I be wrong?

It's funny that this was a pretty big topic back 4 years ago when there were a lot of liberals screaming about leaving the country if W was re-elected. While I somewhat sympathized with those views I think it's funny that the urge to even think of leaving is stronger now for me then it was then, and yet a liberal is poised to very possibly be elected.

Here is the list of things I'd really like, the big question: Does it exist?

1. Free or reasonably priced healthcare that is of a good quality.
2. Free or reasonably priced higher education that is of a good quality.
3. Temperate climate: I can't deal with a lot of overcast days, but don't want to bake in the sun.
4. Socially very liberal with very tolerant people, but otherwise fiscally conservative.
5. Good transportation system that is not overcrowded.
6. Easy Immigration.
7. Geo-politically stable (IE not a big target on the Alcaida dartboard)
This space intentionally left blank
 
MD11junkie
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:49 pm



Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
1. Free or reasonably priced healthcare that is of a good quality.
2. Free or reasonably priced higher education that is of a good quality.
3. Temperate climate: I can't deal with a lot of overcast days, but don't want to bake in the sun.
4. Socially very liberal with very tolerant people, but otherwise fiscally conservative.
5. Good transportation system that is not overcrowded.
6. Easy Immigration.
7. Geo-politically stable (IE not a big target on the Alcaida dartboard)

Spain sounds like a good option for you, Ted.
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
Superfly
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:51 pm

Have you looked in to the Scandinavian countries?
Don't worry about the cold winters. You'll get used to that pretty quick.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:02 pm



Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
1. Free or reasonably priced healthcare that is of a good quality.
2. Free or reasonably priced higher education that is of a good quality.
3. Temperate climate: I can't deal with a lot of overcast days, but don't want to bake in the sun.
4. Socially very liberal with very tolerant people, but otherwise fiscally conservative.
5. Good transportation system that is not overcrowded.
6. Easy Immigration.
7. Geo-politically stable (IE not a big target on the Alcaida dartboard)

You just described Norway in a nutshell
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
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LTU932
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:08 pm



Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
1. Free or reasonably priced healthcare that is of a good quality.
2. Free or reasonably priced higher education that is of a good quality.
3. Temperate climate: I can't deal with a lot of overcast days, but don't want to bake in the sun.
4. Socially very liberal with very tolerant people, but otherwise fiscally conservative.
5. Good transportation system that is not overcrowded.
6. Easy Immigration.
7. Geo-politically stable (IE not a big target on the Alcaida dartboard)

May I suggest Switzerland?
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
LFutia
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:14 pm

The Netherlands sounds good for you!

Leo
Leo/ORD
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:19 pm

Denmark would also be an option. Granted they also have quite a few overcast days, but at least most of the time they get actual snow and not the sleet/rain mix like Germany for example. Only downside is that booze is somewhat expensive in Denmark, but that problem can always be solved  Wink .
 
skyservice_330
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:22 pm



Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
1. Free or reasonably priced healthcare that is of a good quality.
2. Free or reasonably priced higher education that is of a good quality.
3. Temperate climate: I can't deal with a lot of overcast days, but don't want to bake in the sun.
4. Socially very liberal with very tolerant people, but otherwise fiscally conservative.
5. Good transportation system that is not overcrowded.
6. Easy Immigration.
7. Geo-politically stable (IE not a big target on the Alcaida dartboard)

Welcome to Canada / Bienveue au Canada  Smile ... (except for MAYBE the last one)
 
Superfly
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:27 pm



Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 6):
Only downside is that booze is somewhat expensive in Denmark, but that problem can always be solved Wink .

Are you suggesting he should rob liquor stores like Dana Plato?  Wow!
Bring back the Concorde
 
Tom in NO
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:31 pm



Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
the thought has occurred to me that there has to be a better place to live in then the US.

Funny thing is, for all the bad things said about living in the US, which direction are the huddled masses heading...out of the US...or in  wink  ?!

Tom at MSY
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
kmh1956
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:35 pm

I'm looking at exactly the opposite problem. My daughter has been in NH for 5 years now, and wants to remain and get her green card and (possibly) citizenship eventually. She has come up against so many roadblocks; her employers won't help as she's not considered a 'key employee' and we have no immediate family in the US....just cousins...lots of cousins..
She's written to the offices of John Sununu and the other representative (whose name I don't recall) as well as the ofice of the VP..Sununu's office actually called her back, and basically told her everything she already knew.
She could marry her boyfriend, but doesn't want to do it purely for immigration purposes.
It's very frustrating.
Unfortunately in your case, Ted, finding everything on that list of yours may well be close to impossible...I'm not even going to think aboutu recommending Bermuda....it's expensive (private education starts at about 15K per annum, immigration policy sucks, and our government....well, don't get me started on THAT one...)
Perhaps Cayman? Never mind..you want temperate...ever thought about Tunisia?
'Somebody tell me why I'm on my own if there's a soulmate for everyone' :Natasha Bedingfield
 
Rara
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:37 pm

Try Holland, it fits your description rather well.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
Pope
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:39 pm



Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
1. Free or reasonably priced healthcare that is of a good quality.
2. Free or reasonably priced higher education that is of a good quality.
3. Temperate climate: I can't deal with a lot of overcast days, but don't want to bake in the sun.
4. Socially very liberal with very tolerant people, but otherwise fiscally conservative.
5. Good transportation system that is not overcrowded.
6. Easy Immigration.
7. Geo-politically stable (IE not a big target on the Alcaida dartboard)

Ted,

I know the place for you - Fantasyland. It's in the Magic Kingdom in Orlando.

Maybe you should start your own nation of the same name. Perhaps you can take some of the left wing nuts who constantly seem unhappy about being Americans along with you.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
PacNWjet
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:53 pm

You might try San Francisco  Wink

[Edited 2008-01-31 12:03:22]
 
Queso
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:04 pm



Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
But I look at my life, the lack of opportunities,

Ever thought about taking control of your own life and making some opportunities for yourself instead of waiting for them to be handed to you on a silver platter? You sound like an inner-city youth who has been raised to believe he's oppressed by the fact that he was born in a slum, rather than studying hard, spending time in the library instead of on a basketball court (or on A.net) and talking to people who can point him in the right direction to get ahead. "Oh woe is me."

Adios. Enjoy your vacation. You'll be back.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:14 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
Are you suggesting he should rob liquor stores like Dana Plato?

Actually I meant buying booze in Germany and smuggling it across the border, but, close enough  Silly .

Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 9):
Funny thing is, for all the bad things said about living in the US, which direction are the huddled masses heading...out of the US...or in wink ?!

Given how worthless the dollar is, and how darn cheap houses can already be had, that's no question  Wink .
 
EvilForce
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:17 pm



Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
Here is the list of things I'd really like, the big question: Does it exist?

1. Free or reasonably priced healthcare that is of a good quality.
2. Free or reasonably priced higher education that is of a good quality.
3. Temperate climate: I can't deal with a lot of overcast days, but don't want to bake in the sun.
4. Socially very liberal with very tolerant people, but otherwise fiscally conservative.
5. Good transportation system that is not overcrowded.
6. Easy Immigration.
7. Geo-politically stable (IE not a big target on the Alcaida dartboard)

Absolutely it exists. The USA does not have the lock on a stable, happy, lifestyle. In fact many countries rank higher than the US.

Check out www.internationalliving.com
I bought a Venus Fly Trap today and was going to name it "Republican" but the fly trap is beneficial to the environment.
 
AirCop
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:45 pm



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 16):
The USA does not have the lock on a stable, happy, lifestyle. In fact many countries rank higher than the US.

Rankings I've see the USA actually is not even listed in the top 10-15 countries, based on various factors, such a medical care, homeless, poor, people going hungry etc.
 
srbmod
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:48 pm

My solution: Win the lottery, buy yourself an island somewhere in the Caribbean or the Pacific, make your own rules and rule it with an iron fist. Declare yourself a sovereign nation and make your national symbol "the finger" and also put it on your flag.
 
lowrider
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:03 pm



Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
Does it exist?

I don't think so. Even if it seems good on the surface, all you have to do is dig a little deeper. At least that is what I have found so far. I think is more a matter of which evils you want to tolerate. Would it be possible for you to try some short term expat work? Maybe try a few on for size for 6 mos to a year?
Proud OOTSK member
 
jafa39
Posts: 4320
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:08 pm

Hey Ted...start an aviation website, get rich by selling it to DM and the world will be your Oyster.

I think you might like Iceland, once you get used to the cold.

Don't come to NZ, we're full.....there were 8 people on my local 2km beach yesterday!!!
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:23 pm



Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
Here is the list of things I'd really like, the big question: Does it exist?

1. Free or reasonably priced healthcare that is of a good quality.
2. Free or reasonably priced higher education that is of a good quality.
3. Temperate climate: I can't deal with a lot of overcast days, but don't want to bake in the sun.
4. Socially very liberal with very tolerant people, but otherwise fiscally conservative.
5. Good transportation system that is not overcrowded.
6. Easy Immigration.
7. Geo-politically stable (IE not a big target on the Alcaida dartboard)

You didn't mention employment in your list--are you planning to stay in teh same profession or are we talking some kind of early retirement?

I know of 2 couples who have had the immigration door slammed on them trying to relocate to the Netherlands and Australia, so those are probably 2 countries to avoid. (One of the couples is British --I always thought that "counted" for Australian immigration, but apparently not.)

Maybe Italy? It seems like their population is declining.
 
Springbok747
Posts: 3993
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:48 pm



Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
Temperate climate: I can't deal with a lot of overcast days, but don't want to bake in the sun.

You can rule out coming here then. Today we're having a cool 41C (106 F) here in ADL.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 21):
One of the couples is British --I always thought that "counted" for Australian immigration, but apparently not

It doesn't always count. Oz is looking for people with skills to migrate i.e. people "who will contribute positively to our society" (thats what is on the immigration website anyway..I have no idea wtf it really means).
אני תומך בישראל
 
PacNWjet
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:55 pm

I can think of a few places along the lines you specify, but you wouldn't like them.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:06 am



Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
Here is the list of things I'd really like, the big question: Does it exist?

1. Free or reasonably priced healthcare that is of a good quality.
2. Free or reasonably priced higher education that is of a good quality.
3. Temperate climate: I can't deal with a lot of overcast days, but don't want to bake in the sun.
4. Socially very liberal with very tolerant people, but otherwise fiscally conservative.
5. Good transportation system that is not overcrowded.
6. Easy Immigration.
7. Geo-politically stable (IE not a big target on the Alcaida dartboard)

Yeah, those places exist. Europe has a lot of them. But those are just the good things - nothing is perfect, and there are downsides to those places as well. Higher taxes, for one. And a style of life that may be very different from what you're used to.

That does not mean that you shouldn't move if you really want to. But it's one thing to go to a country as a tourist - quite another to live there. Moving may solve some problems, but it will bring about others. If you feel that the problems it solves are more important than the problems it creates, then your choice is clear. If not, your choice is also clear. Point is: do your homework very carefully before making a decision like this.

I have a great time whenever I'm in Europe, but I'm still not convinced that I'd want to live there. Sort of a "devil you know beats the devil you don't" mentality.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Arniepie
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:14 am

Why not go to your neighbours in Canada, stay in the southern parts and you'll be ok for the weather.
Don't think the transportation system is really what you expect but that can be dealt with me thinks.

For me the places to go if need arises are:
-Canada
-Netherlands
-Australia
-New Zealand
-Japan (after learning the language)
-Germany (Bayern or Baden Wurtemberg)
-Switzerland
-Austria
-....
[edit post]
 
davestanKSAN
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:19 am

Welcome back Teddy boy. How's life treating ya? Been out shooting pictures (and guns) a lot latley? Sorry to hear you aren't happy. I think maybe a good vacation is in order.

Dave
Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:31 am



Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
1. Free or reasonably priced healthcare that is of a good quality.
2. Free or reasonably priced higher education that is of a good quality.
3. Temperate climate: I can't deal with a lot of overcast days, but don't want to bake in the sun.
4. Socially very liberal with very tolerant people, but otherwise fiscally conservative.
5. Good transportation system that is not overcrowded.
6. Easy Immigration.
7. Geo-politically stable (IE not a big target on the Alcaida dartboard)

1. No health care is free, anywhere, unless you are poor in the US, then it is quite good.
2. Got that right here in California.
3. That can be found many places. Northern Europe ain't one of them.
4. Have to do your own research there.
5. Easy to work around, available many places.
6. From my experience, you can rule out most of the Western world. Canada might take you, but then you run into request #3.
7. There goes the rest of the Western world and a good chunk of the third world. Have you considered Panama?

You don't mention work, which is the real roadblock to migrating most places. Apparently you are wealthy enough to not need it, in which case Central/South America might fit the bill for you. Look at Panama, they have easy immigration. SE Asia might work for many of your goals, immigration is still a problem though.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:14 am



Quoting 767Lover (Reply 21):
(One of the couples is British --I always thought that "counted" for Australian immigration, but apparently not.)

No real surprise there, Britain slammed the door on Aussie immigration a long time ago.
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:21 am



Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
6. Easy Immigration.

As an American, if you can show a working contract with a company in Germany, you'll get a work permit and residence permit automatically. Your spouse and chilren will have to go to German language class though (law introduced a few years ago, because we have many low class immigrants, who got their spouses friom their home countries and deliberately kept them from learning German, which led to the formation of ghettos).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
KL773ER
Posts: 102
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:18 am



Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
but the thought has occurred to me that there has to be a better place to live in then the US.

Are you also discovering alt. options in case if your undesired presidential candidate wins? Me too...

Good luck,
-KL
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:23 am



Quoting KL773ER (Reply 34):
Are you also discovering alt. options in case if your undesired presidential candidate wins? Me too...

Good luck,

Can't you go to the Netherlands?
 
lgbga
Posts: 184
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:10 pm

RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:13 am

Costa Rica??????

I think its fairly easy to retire there as long as you have some money coming in. The climate is great, they have good health care. The water is potable. A lot of education options. The public transportation is good too, if a little crowded. Politically they are a stable country I believe. Our a-net friends from Costa Rica could tell you more about that.
I most definitely would live there.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 1):
Spain sounds like a good option for you, Ted.

That sounds nice too.
 
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LTU932
Posts: 13725
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:39 am



Quoting Lgbga (Reply 36):
Costa Rica??????

As a German ex-pat who also has the Costa Rican citizenship, a few things:

1. Many of the Americans (and Canadians) coming to live here in recent times are senior citizens. Especially here in Pavas, it's as if only retired Americans and Canadians come here.
2. While Costa Rica is a nice place for a vacation, it's not exactly a good place to live. Constant inflation, taxi drivers who tend to look at you with an odd expression when they hear you speak Spanish with an accent and who ask you if you're a foreigner with a borderline racist attitude, the cost of living is a ripoff, people here who have cars shouldn't even have a licence because they don't even know how to negotiate a turn and use both lanes to do so or simply don't respect the red light infront of a crossing, insufficient public transportation, everything centralised so you have to go to San José to do paperwork even though you live in e.g. Puntarenas or Puerto Jiménez, roads that are full of pot holes and never get repaired, traffic cops who pull you over just to force drivers to get a juicy bribe instead of stopping all the drunk drivers on the street, etc. You have to be very tolerant with certain behaviours if you want to live in Costa Rica.

I have nothing against the people, but some of them, and some of their behaviours and customs (and I'm not talking about traditional customs that have to do with their colonial/indigenous/immigrant heritage) are very disturbing.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:50 am



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 29):
Your spouse and chilren will have to go to German language class though (law introduced a few years ago, because we have many low class immigrants, who got their spouses friom their home countries and deliberately kept them from learning German, which led to the formation of ghettos).

Sounds a lot like many places here - replace "German" with "English" and you have the problem of illegal immigration here with hispanics - only, we aren't smart enough to make them learn english, let alone prevent them from flocking over here in insane numbers.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
davestanKSAN
Posts: 1532
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:32 pm

RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:57 am



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 39):

Not all hispanics are illegal aliens, and not all illegal aliens are hispanic. Dude where ya been, I miss debating with you, you conservative piece of work  tongue . Hope all is well buddy!!

Dave
Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
 
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yowza
Posts: 4513
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:01 am

RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:39 am



Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
1. Free or reasonably priced healthcare that is of a good quality.
2. Free or reasonably priced higher education that is of a good quality.
3. Temperate climate: I can't deal with a lot of overcast days, but don't want to bake in the sun.
4. Socially very liberal with very tolerant people, but otherwise fiscally conservative.
5. Good transportation system that is not overcrowded.
6. Easy Immigration.
7. Geo-politically stable (IE not a big target on the Alcaida dartboard)

Vancouver, BC. Sold.


YOWza
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:00 am



Quoting YOWza (Reply 41):
Vancouver, BC. Sold.

I love Vancouver and BC - always interesting and beautiful areas to visit. Been there 4 times now, and hope to go again soon.

Now I bet you weren't expecting that from a right-leaning Texan.  Big grin




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
User avatar
fxramper
Posts: 5839
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:10 am

You don't have the money to live abroad and no country would take you anyways.

Quoting Pope (Reply 12):
I know the place for you - Fantasyland. It's in the Magic Kingdom in Orlando.

Maybe you should start your own nation of the same name.

It would bomb like other endeavors of Ted.

 rotfl 
 
SBBRTech
Posts: 403
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:32 am

RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:51 am

Let's see down here:

1. Nah
2. Not really
3. How warm is too warm?
4. Not sure about what fiscally conservative means...but if you are talking about tax fraud, sure!
5. LOL
6. Ronald Biggs was a national pop-star.
7. Our crime rate scared them away.




If you wanna be in the neighbourhood, maybe Chile will suit your needs.
"I'm beginning to get the hang of this flying business" - C3PO
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:11 am



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 34):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 29):
Your spouse and chilren will have to go to German language class though (law introduced a few years ago, because we have many low class immigrants, who got their spouses friom their home countries and deliberately kept them from learning German, which led to the formation of ghettos).

Sounds a lot like many places here - replace "German" with "English" and you have the problem of illegal immigration here with hispanics - only, we aren't smart enough to make them learn english, let alone prevent them from flocking over here in insane numbers.




-NWA742

The reasoning behind this law is different. It is not so much about illegal immigration, but due to the development of parallel cultures and the forming of ghettos (example from two German cities I know myself: Kreuzberg and Neukoelln, I have been living in this distric myself for several years, in Berlin and Kalk in Cologne).
Historical background (especially for EvilForce):
Back in the late 1950s-1960s the Federal Republic of Germany was going through an economic boom, while at the same time the country was still suffering from wartime losses, especially men.
There was an accute shortage of workers.
It was decided to recruit foreign workers in various European and non-European countries, among the Spanish, Italians, Turkish, Morroccans, Greece, Yugoslavs and Portugese (the biggest groups), but also nurses and med techs from South Korea and the Philippines.
Most of the foreign workers called Gastarbeiter (Guest workers) were simple labourers hired to do the dirty work nobody else wanted to do, in many cases young men from rural villages, who couldn't find a job in their own countries.
Back then it was expected, by the Germans as well as by the workers, that they would only spend a few years in Germany, living under austere conditions (dormitory like accomodation with bunk beds), saving their money to eventually return home, get married and buy a farm or a shop.
Italians and Spanish mostly settled in the catholic regions of Germany, while the Turks mostly settled in the protestant areas, especially Berlin (Prussia and the Ottoman Empire had diplomatic relations going back to the 18th century, the old Muslim cemetary in Berlin was founded after the Turkish ambassador at the court of Frederik II died).
Now the development varied a bit depending on the nationality of the workers.
After a few years many workers got used to the higher income work in Germany provided, but got lonely. They moved out off their dorm accomodation, went home to get married, got a flat of their own (usually in pretty rundown districts in the German cities, where rents were low) and started a family.
Some, like many Italians, never really broke the connections to their original homes and e.g. had their families half a year in Germany, the rest of the year in the old village.
Many of the Korean and Filipino nurses married German husbands and are now in high management positions in German hospitals (e.g. my first ex-wife's aunt, a med tech from the Philippines, who came to Germany in 1969 is now head of the Red Cross blood bank lab in Berlin).
Many Spanish workers were refugees from the Franco dictatorship, realising that they could not go back to Spain while the dictator lived, and decided to integrate themselves and their families fully (e.g. rejecting an offer by the German government which proposed Spanish language school education in accordance with the then Spanish school regulations for their children, who are now bilingual and fully integrated).
The Turkish workers back then though were among the least educated, not urban people from Istanbul or Ankara, but they came for a big part from feudaly ruled, very traditional villages in eastern Anatolia.
The biggest problem was that successive German governments denied that there was a need for a proper immigration laws, the left because they were dreaming of a peaceful multi-cultural utopia, while the conservative right rejected especially non-Northern European immigration due to racist reasons.
There was already some trouble in the 1960s, when German liberal urban culture (hippy period) clashed with traditional attitudes from rural villages, where most of the workers came from.
Traditional Mediterranean culture used to be very patriarchalic, the head of the family is the absolute boss and ruler in the family, especially towards wives and daughters, the whole thing is traditionally connected with the family head's honour.
The European mediterranean countries have rapidly modernised themselves over the last 50 years, so today this attitude is no issue anymore in Spain, Italy, Greece and Yugoslvia, but the Northern African countries and rural Turkey stayed quite backwards in this matter.
There were also definitely racist attitudes from the German side, e.g. many German WW2 veterans still saw the Italians as "traitors" due to their armistice with the Allies in 1943.
Problems started when the first immigrants brought their wives and kids over. There was no coherent immigration policy from the German side, no special German language classes for the children, who often fell behind in school due to their lack of understanding. The German governments continued to evade the question, stating that the "Guest workers" would leave some day anyway.
The parents themselves mostly had minimum schooling and were too busy working, at home they spoke their own language.
People from the same cultural circle moved together, this lead to concentrations of immigrant workers, so that suddenly non-German speaking children were a majority in the schools in these districts, with the teachers not equipped to teach them properly. As a result many second generation immigrants failed school or passed with minimum grades (though with strong variations, as seen with the Spanish).
The parents still belived that they would return to their village some day, but eventually it dawned that they knew nobody back home anymore and that their new home was Germany, where they still felt strange, dreaming of their home country the way they left it in the 1950s-1960s (even though it had changed a lot, like Turkey).
Also, up to the 1970s, the foreign workers were treated quite badly in the factories, they usually received less pay. This changed after a big inofficial (nor called for by any of the regular unions) strike paralised Germany in the early 1970s. From then on the non-German workers received similar salaries as their German counterparts, at least with the big companies.
Now you had a second generation (appr. my age group), which was trapped between the cultures. At home father rules absolutist, like in the village back home, but in school they got exposed to liberal ideas.
Add to this religion. While the Catholic Italians, Portugese and Spanish just joined a local parish (there also existed orthodox churches for the Greeks and Serbs), the Muslims were for a big part restricted to garage mosques in backyards.
Many Turks, not able to cope with the change in culture, retrograded to the purity of religion. Same as a German high school drop-out might join the Nazi party, which tells him that he is something special because of his German passport, an increasing number of Middle Eastern Muslims turned to religion to give them an identity.

Especially after the economic boom stopped during and after the oil crisis of 1974, many former guest workers were the first to be laid off, the simple labourer jobs they have done, being either outsourced or taken over by machinery.
So now you have a generation, which does not really identify with this country (due to the fact that this country neglected them and even refused then German citizenship), which looks for a very conservative interpretation of their own heritage for identity.

The biggest sufferers were the women and girls. Western behaviour was considered suspect and decadent. Female emancipation threatened the rule of the patriarch, who lost his traditional standing with his peers if he would give in (and thus loose his honour).
I speak now predominantly about the Turkish immigrant workers, not academics or other educated people, because I know them best and they are the biggest group of immigrants in Germany.

Many second generation Turks in Germany, often unemployed or in low positions, turned to traditions. This also meant that a German educated spouse was out off question. She might be contaminated by western ideas. So wives were sought back home in the villages the parents came from. These wives were now often deliberately kept excluded from learning German and learning about German culture. Essentially what was wanted was a district in a German town with the economic possibilities of western europe, but everything else like in the village.
Many of these marriages were also forced, especially girls which had grown up in Germany were used to circumvent the German residency laws (Since official immigration did not exist, the only ways to come legally to Germany after foreign recruitment stopped in 1973 was either to marry a person with a residency in Germany or to apply as political refugee) by forcing them to marry a distant relative or friend of the parents.

This let to the forming of a parallel culture, in the most extreme seen in the now defunct "Caliphate of Cologne", where a group of Islamic fundamentalists aquired an old factory lot and declared it a Caliphate, where from then on Sharia law should rule. The place was closed a few years ago and the founder deported to Turkey, after having passed a prison term in Germany for conspiracy to kill a rival, where he was wanted for an attempt to kill Turkish politicians.

Honour killings, though not sanctioned in the Q'ran, but based on tribal traditions, fall into a similar pattern.

2007 the German government passed a law which mandates minimum knowledge of German language for foreign spouses of immigrants. The same law also mandates a minimum age for the pouses, since often the women forcibly married were quite young. Berlin state also introduced years ago a rule that, if during a wedding ceremony, one of the couple does not speak sufficient German, a sworn court translator has to be present, also to prevent forced marriages.

Now concering the young men (3rd generation), who often are unemployed due to lack of school degrees, they in many cases either turn towards fundamentalist religion or towards aggressive gangsterism.
It is a fact that young men with an immigration background between 15 and 25 head the police statistics about violent crime (assault, robbery, murder).
This includes also young Russian-Germans. Their ancestors settled centuries ago in Russia, they, as a population group, were persecuted by Stalin and they are entitled to a German passport (which is mostly supported by the conservatives, since these people are against anything that sound socialist or communist due to their Soviet Union background and were expected to vote for them).
But they had problems with the German language (most of them only speak Russian) and often their school degrees from Russia were not accepeted here.
So again, dissappointed, bored young men.
In both cases the unemployed fathers (while the Turkish were often laid off as simple labourers following outsourcing, the Russian-Germans often have been highly qualified in Russia, but their diplomas are not being recognised over here) also suffered an identity crisis. Not being able to fullfill the role of the family provider made them loose respect.

The young men often congregate in gangs and act extremely aggressive, a wrong glance can be enough to be seen as an insult to honour and result in violence. I can understand where they come from, but still I don't fancy being beaten up (as has happened to me once in Berlin) or killed by them.

The third group of immigrants, which started in the 1980s are the political asylum seekers. Germany's constitution guarantees the right of persecuted people to receive political asylum in our country, a law which is just and important.
But now again, because we have no real regulated way for people to immigrate to Germany to work, this route has been heavily abused.
By law, anybody who says "political asylum" when crossing a German border will enter the asylum process. While his case is being processed, which might take years, he is not allowed to work, but will receive social welfare.
Now this social welfare payment might be low for German standards, but for many third world countries it is a fortune. Then there are way to milk the system, legally and not so legally. My second ex-wife (who came to Germany from Sierra Leone, West Africa, as a "political refugee", was an expert in it, one reason for our divorce).
I know that most genuine asylum seekers don't want to be parasites and want honestly work, but there are lots of people ripping the taxpayer off (e.g. the government was forced to start fingerprinting asylum seekers some years ago, which in Germany is normally only done if you are a suspected criminal, and to keep the records centrally, because fake asylum seekers, using forged passports with different names, applied in several states for welfare at the same time).


But again, we have no coherent immigration policy. We need immigration to equalise for our decrease in population, but there exist only bilateral agreements (e.g. a mechanic or engineer from the Philippines will get a work and a residence permit right away if he shows a working contract with a German employer, an agreement from IIRC 1958, which was never recinded, I brought four Filipino aircraft mechanics into Germany using this rule, or the special rule for American citizens), but no real imigration law. The Red-Green government under Schroeder tried to pass a law based on the policies used by Canada and Australia, but it was voted down by the conservatives.


Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
bill142
Posts: 7867
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RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:08 pm



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 22):
It doesn't always count. Oz is looking for people with skills to migrate i.e. people "who will contribute positively to our society" (thats what is on the immigration website anyway..I have no idea wtf it really means).

Basically it means if you have some kind of qualification we'll take you. If you don't we'll still take you, but just make it a touch harder.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:19 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
screaming about leaving the country if

there is a tremendous difference between
A) leaving the country to enjoy something you consider as potentially of advantage and nice
B) leaving the country because you need some income to have your life
C) to HAVE to get out due to REAL political trouble
-
In case of B) and C) you generally do not have so much of a choice
 
Toast
Posts: 1249
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:04 am

RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:45 pm



Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
1. Free or reasonably priced healthcare that is of a good quality.
2. Free or reasonably priced higher education that is of a good quality.
3. Temperate climate: I can't deal with a lot of overcast days, but don't want to bake in the sun.
4. Socially very liberal with very tolerant people, but otherwise fiscally conservative.
5. Good transportation system that is not overcrowded.
6. Easy Immigration.
7. Geo-politically stable (IE not a big target on the Alcaida dartboard)

4. If by "fiscally conservative" you mean low taxes, forget about free healthcare, education, and transportation. If you don't mind having a bit less pocket money than in the US but a superior quality of life nonetheless, most of western Europe will fit your bill, as well as Canada and New Zealand. Personally, Spain is my favorite country, for the above reasons and more. Ireland is great, too, and you wouldn't even have to learn a new language. France and Belgium are nice, but only if you don't mind being raped by the taxman. The Netherlands are arguably the most open and liberal society in the world, but living on a huge pool table beneath the sea level isn't quite my cup of tea. Luxembourg is the richest nation in the world, with very low taxes and an amazing quality of life, but the boredom is lethal. Switzerland is nice but socially conservative and more than a little xenophobic. The UK would be brilliant without the crappy climate, high prices, and Muslim extremists. Scandinavia is great but expensive, and the cold 20-hour nights can suck my balls. Portugal is still somewhat underdeveloped and conservative, ditto for Greece. Italy is beautiful but politically unstable and disorganized. Germany and Austria are terrific places to live if you can deal with all the verboten stuff.

As for immigration, Americans are always welcome in all European countries. Sure there is red tape but nothing like other countries' citizens have to endure.

But personally, if I were American and wanted to leave, I think my obvious destination would be Canada. It's next door and is like the US, without the warts.  flamed   flamed   flamed 

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 18):
Declare yourself a sovereign nation and make your national symbol "the finger" and also put it on your flag.

I thought the Finger was already trademarked by the US Department of State.  duck 
Shit Piss Fuck Cunt Cocksucker Motherfucker Tits
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:09 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 43):
If you don't mind having a bit less pocket money than in the US but a superior quality of life nonetheless, most of western Europe will fit your bill, as well as Canada and New Zealand.

That's a very subjective comment. It depends how you define quality of life. I don't care if healthcare is free, I like having a bigger house. So I would consider the quality of life lower in many of these places not withstanding the benefits you indicate.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Toast
Posts: 1249
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:04 am

RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:14 pm



Quoting Pope (Reply 44):
That's a very subjective comment. It depends how you define quality of life.

Very true. I meant quality of life as defined by myself, but didn't feel like writing an essay about it.  Smile
Shit Piss Fuck Cunt Cocksucker Motherfucker Tits
 
Doona
Posts: 3382
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:43 am

RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:06 pm



Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):

1. Free or reasonably priced healthcare that is of a good quality.
2. Free or reasonably priced higher education that is of a good quality.
3. Temperate climate: I can't deal with a lot of overcast days, but don't want to bake in the sun.
4. Socially very liberal with very tolerant people, but otherwise fiscally conservative.
5. Good transportation system that is not overcrowded.
6. Easy Immigration.
7. Geo-politically stable (IE not a big target on the Alcaida dartboard)

Sounds like Sweden.  eyebrow 

Healthcare and education are free, hell, the government is even lending (and giving) me money to go to school! Suckers...

Apart from the fiscally conservative thing, whatever that means. High taxes and tons of bureaucracy are needed to keep the system running, but other than that, it's pretty decent. And I don't think the immigration thing will be a problem, as people who dislike immigrants tend to focus on Eastern Europeans and people from the Middle East. And we do have quite a few overcast days, but the summers are usually nice. And Osama himself has made it clear that Sweden is not on his radar. Or at least wasn't, a couple of years ago.

The other Scandinavian countries are okay too but as I understand it, moving to Denmark is quite a hassle nowadays. Something about "preserving their culture", or whatever.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 6):
Only downside is that booze is somewhat expensive in Denmark, but that problem can always be solved

Huh? Sure, compared to continentals, perhaps. Just don't venture further north, you'll be in for a nasty surprise.  wink 

Cheers
Mats
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
AverageUser
Posts: 1824
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:21 pm

RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:16 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
Does it exist?

Any of the Nordic countries will be your choice. Norway would be closest, but your raincoat and hiking boots costs are going to soar. Looking at your profile, I'd say you'd probably become hired right away by at least one Finnish major corporation, and you'd already be speaking the company language so send in your C.V. The school for the kids would have been arranged in major cities with the tuition in your native language (and a range of other languages as well).

[Edited 2008-02-01 08:45:22]
 
PacNWjet
Posts: 809
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2000 1:18 am

RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:28 pm



Quoting Doona (Reply 46):
Sounds like Sweden. Healthcare and education are free,

Free?

Quoting Doona (Reply 46):
High taxes and tons of bureaucracy are needed to keep the system running,

Oh, I see; you pay for those things via taxes. That makes sense. Health care and education are free in the United States too. Instead of paying for them exclusively via taxes you pay for them via a variety of means including fees, tuition, and taxes.

Quoting Doona (Reply 46):
as people who dislike immigrants tend to focus on Eastern Europeans and people from the Middle East.

Wasn't one of Ted's criteria "socially very liberal with very tolerant people"?
 
[email protected]
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: Where To Flee? International Relocation...

Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:29 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 43):
The UK would be brilliant without the crappy climate, high prices, and Muslim extremists.

Where did you get this rubbish from? The idea that you shoudn't move to the UK because of "muslim extremists" is frankly laughable, and to a degree, xenophobic. His criteria actually fits the UK quite well apart from points 5 and 7. We have a good transportation network but it's becoming a bit crowded, and we're also a huge Al-Qaeda target. As far as immigration is concerned, moving abroad is never as easy as turning up and living a life of bliss. With regards to the weather, apart from Iberia and the Mediterranean countries, the weather is foul all around Europe for most of the year. The weather in the UK is no better or no worse than say, Belguim or Germany, infact we've had some very mild and termperate temperatues lately, better than continental Europe. The biggest downside to the UK is the cost of living, we get raped in this country for everything we buy, from a tin of beans to cars.
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