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LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2001 12:57 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:31 am



Quoting Banco (Reply 49):
I would think that the designers at now defunct Rover would have a bit of a row with you about saying the Mini was designed by BMW.

Editor Banco woke up? Oh good because its only 430am and ive got at least 6am to ponder about the automobile world.

If I had a million dollars I would buy you a Ssangyong Rhodius just to see your reaction  Silly
 
bill142
Posts: 7867
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:50 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:35 am



Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 48):
In all honesty, what we really need is the Holden Commodore HSV GTS/Senator Series with the LS2 V8 jacking out 412hp, 12 more than the previous gen in the GTO/Monaro.

I'd want to hope the V8 version packs a decent punch because I drove a friends V6 a few weeks back and I certainly wasn't blown away by it.
 
LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2001 12:57 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:50 am



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 51):
I'd want to hope the V8 version packs a decent punch because I drove a friends V6 a few weeks back and I certainly wasn't blown away by it.

I would venture to say it is day and night.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:51 am



Quoting Aa757first (Reply 1):
how much GM would save if they consolidated to three or four brands

Interesting is that Opel made a profit. Possibly a sign that the US-American GM producers are not sufficiently working for the market. Somebody at GM anyway said that major changes already had been implemented and will show results this year. Such figures however show the enormous size of that conglomerate !
-

Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 2):
actual loss for the year was 23 million.

Yes, but they need the super-figure to justify a severe reduction of the workforce.
-
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:08 pm



Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 18):
The Corvette is not branded or sold as a Chevy in Europe.

Never said it did. I am fully aware that the Corvette is essentially its own brand, at least here in Germany, but when people here are asked about Chevrolet, they will first mention the Corvette anyway.

Quoting Banco (Reply 19):
Correct. It's just listed as "Corvette", but distributed through Cadillac dealers - of which there are very few.

It's actually quite mixed. In Hamburg, the main distributer for the Corvette also sells Caddys and Hummers in its store, which is only part of an even larger car seller group that also includes Opel, Saab,Kia and Daevrolet. I'm not sure if there are even any seperate Corvette/Caddy dealers in Northern Germany, they are near impossible to find.
 
ABQ747
Posts: 648
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:22 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:36 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
Actually, pretty much every good Ford product is a rebadged Mazda.

Really? The Mazda 3 is a rebadged Ford Focus. The Fusion and Edge are hardly just rebadged Mazdas.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):
The Fords in Ford's biggest market. Their best products are either Mazda or Ford of Europe designs.

What about F-Series trucks?
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:38 pm



Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 54):
part of an even larger car seller group that also includes Opel, Saab,Kia and Daevrolet.

Any dealer in Continental Europe, wanting to do business with one make of GM, also has to market all the others. At least if the garage in question wants a real appointment with all the trade-discounts.
 
LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2001 12:57 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:52 pm



Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 54):
Never said it did. I am fully aware that the Corvette is essentially its own brand, at least here in Germany, but when people here are asked about Chevrolet, they will first mention the Corvette anyway.

N1120A concludes that Americans dont think of Chevrolet when they think of Corvette...I highly suspect his statement when even you tell me the Germans do it!

Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 55):
Really? The Mazda 3 is a rebadged Ford Focus. The Fusion and Edge are hardly just rebadged Mazdas.

Errr no. The Mazda Axela is not a rebadged focus. It sits on the Ford C1 platform which was developed in Germany by Ford/Mazda/Volvo engineers at the same time as a Global platform. Just because the Euro Focus was the first one to use it does not mean its a Focus platform or the 3 is a Focus. This first Ford Focus was a C-Max which is cousin to the Mazda Premacy (known as the Mazda 5 in the USA) hardly a Mazda 3. The traditional Euro Focus began using this platform a whole year after Mazda 3 which uses some Ford, some Mazda engineering on the underpinnings.

Now my friend the Ford Edge/Fusion are built on the CD3 platform. Which was designed by Mazda and used by Mazda a whole couple years before any Ford product used it. Moreover where do you think the 2.3L I4 and the 3.0L V6 came from? Mazda.

In eseence, you my friend are wrong.
 
SBBRTech
Posts: 403
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:32 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:12 pm

General Motors do Brasil was founded in 1925 and has always used the Chevrolet badge since they started making pax cars in 1968 (before that they were into trucks, pickups and (!) refrigerators...).

We never got anything from the other GM brands, only as imported. How boring is that?! The name/nickname "Chevy" never really caught up as neither did the Corvette with its U$ 150K starting price tag.

Today they sell some 14 models, some are hideous like the Celta (an overpriced little car with 1.0 engine but quite popular) and others are best selling cars of the year again and again, like the S10 pickup with a 2.4 ltr Flex fuel engine (ethanol or gasoline). So I think they are far from losing money here.

Check it out:
http://www.gm.com.br/action/sessionA..._cd=BR&lang_cd=pt&website_cd=GBPBR
 
Fiatstilojtd
Posts: 870
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:59 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:16 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 13):
GM is also the majority owner of German car maker Opel. If GM was to consolidate on only three brands or so, what would become of Opel?



Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 14):
Granted, these days that's absolute bull when you consider that one car sold as Opel, Holden, Chevy, Saturn, etc is really just the same car with minor changes.

Theoretically, when they would scratch Opel and only keep Vauxhall...which brand would they use to sell the cars in the Republic of Ireland where some people...to say it friendly....do not really like Vauxhall/England for some reasons. The UK/IRL Opel is build in England by Vauxhall but rebadged as Opel for obvious reasons, otherwise almost nobody would have bought it in the past, maybe this would be different now, who knows.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 10):
20 years ago nobody in their right mind would touch one

That is absolutely not true. Maybe 30 or 40 years ago as N1120A mentioned. For example the Nissan Bluebird was a fine car in the 80's.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
Actually, pretty much every good Ford product is a rebadged Mazda.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):
Their best products are either Mazda or Ford of Europe designs.

At least here in Europe it is the other way around. Here every good Mazda is a rebadged Ford. Example the Mazda 2 is a copy of the Ford Fiesta, Mazda 3 = Ford Focus etc.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15816
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:58 pm

As to Corvette and Chevy in the USA, it has always been considered a part of Chevorlet division as to brand, engineering and engines. Any Chevy dealer can sell them, mainly as a 'halo' car to get the attention of men to buy their family cars. I would note that some Chevy dealers (like Kerbeck in NJ as noted in an earlier post) tend to be more into sales and service of Corvettes while many only sell 1-2 a year, if any and only by special order.

The Big US 3 are being killed by 'legacy' costs like the legacy airlines face, pensions and retiree health care costs as well as unsustainable pay rates. Hopefully in the next 10-15 years, many retirees will die, and employees hired in recent years will be hired on a more financially sustainable basis. More importantly, the USA will have to have some government run health care as in almost all modern industrial countries for the masses to remove that responsibility and huge costs from businesses.

As me and others suggested, they do need to eleminate a brand or 2, perhaps pare down to Chevy, Buick and Caddy. They need to concentrate certain models to certain brands as Ford and to a lesser extent Chrysler is/will be doing. They need to cut out many dealers. Too many dealers = too much competition among the same brand = heavy discouting = rebates and losses to the parent. Don't forget that GM pioneered badge engineering, each brand having it's own engines, bodies, features and available in dozens of body styles. Look at the number of brands, wheelbases and body styles GM offered back in the 1930's to the 1970's to today, and it is a lot less today. They must continue to reduce the numbers of versions and variations of cars they make. They must do more minimal variations of international platforms, they have been moving that way for several years. They must realize what makes people want a Honda or Toyota or Nissan vs. a GM car and copy that. They must stop throwing so much into horsepower and more into quality, fuel efficiency, quality service and so on.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:59 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 60):
Hopefully in the next 10-15 years, many retirees will die

Yikes, that sounds very harsh. Those of us that have older family that have retired from GM, Ford & Chrysler do not want them to die any time soon.
Perhaps your statement should have read; "Hopefully in the next 10-15 years, many politicians standing in the way of national health-care will die."
Personally I'd rather them be voted out of office or retire.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 60):
More importantly, the USA will have to have some government run health care as in almost all modern industrial countries for the masses to remove that responsibility and huge costs from businesses.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 
Amen!

THAT is the main problem with the big 3. All this jibber-jabber about the big three making crappy cars is hogwash.
BTW, why isn't Germany being hit with huge fines for all those gass-guzzlers they send over here?

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 45):
So don't you think it's quite impressive that such a lower cost sedan is offering 400HP M5-like performance?

I find that VERY impressive and one of the main reasons why I'll never waste money and buy a German car.
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:22 pm



Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 54):
I'm not sure if there are even any seperate Corvette/Caddy dealers in Northern Germany, they are near impossible to find.

There are only 12 in Britain. Though given that the Corvette is left hand drive only (at least for the time being) it seems virtually certain that any potential market would be larger on the continent than here. To be fair though, it is only very recently that any of the American manufacturers returned to the UK market in any meaningful way. Chrysler was the first, though unfortunately the Neon was hardly a good product by anyone's standards. Cheap though, and well specced, so they did sell some.

Quoting Fiatstilojtd (Reply 59):
Theoretically, when they would scratch Opel and only keep Vauxhall...which brand would they use to sell the cars in the Republic of Ireland where some people...to say it friendly....do not really like Vauxhall/England for some reasons. The UK/IRL Opel is build in England by Vauxhall but rebadged as Opel for obvious reasons, otherwise almost nobody would have bought it in the past, maybe this would be different now, who knows.

Not much of the Vauxhall/Opel product is made in Britain anymore. At motorshows and the like, Vauxhall have a bit of a bloody cheek waving the union flag as if they're a British manufacturer. It's been 30 years or more since they had any distinct models of their own, and all the design is done in Germany. I guess some people are fooled.
 
cornish
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Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:31 pm



Quoting Banco (Reply 62):
Not much of the Vauxhall/Opel product is made in Britain anymore. At motorshows and the like, Vauxhall have a bit of a bloody cheek waving the union flag as if they're a British manufacturer. It's been 30 years or more since they had any distinct models of their own, and all the design is done in Germany. I guess some people are fooled.

Ellesmere Port is the only factory here in the UK any more, since Luton closed. Only builds Astras and engines. All the rest of the range comes from Belgium, Spain and to a lesser extent Germany.

You'll probably find Nissan's presence is bigger here now.

Quoting Banco (Reply 62):
Chrysler was the first, though unfortunately the Neon was hardly a good product by anyone's standards. Cheap though, and well specced, so they did sell some.

Yes including one to my Dad quite early on. And then the fuel pump went early in its life and Chrysler UK took 6 weeks to find a replacement - eventually having to source one in Europe somewhere  Wow!
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:31 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 61):
Quoting NWA742 (Reply 45):
So don't you think it's quite impressive that such a lower cost sedan is offering 400HP M5-like performance?

I find that VERY impressive and one of the main reasons why I'll never waste money and buy a German car.

An M5 has 507HP, actually, and more importantly has the suspension and chassis to deal with it. The G8 seems like an excellent car, especially for the money, but equal to an M5? No.
 
Fiatstilojtd
Posts: 870
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:59 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:01 pm



Quoting Banco (Reply 62):
I guess some people are fooled.

 checkmark  ...with my first post I only wanted to show an example why it could be necessary to sell the exactly same car (Opel Astra etc.) under a different name/badge.

Austrian/Swiss actor Klaus Wildbolz, who is a very big England fan, has actually invested some money and rebadged his Opel Signum into Vauxhall. He actually bought the parts in Ireland. The dealer had no Vauxhall badge (or maybe Airbag cover) for the steering wheel, because they are different.

This pic shows him taking over the car from Opel Austria.

 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:43 pm



Quoting Fiatstilojtd (Reply 65):
has actually invested some money and rebadged his Opel Signum into Vauxhall.

Good God, what on earth for? Vauxhall is a shite badge in this country, not a prestige one (interestingly, of far lower prestige than Opel). When the Vauxhall VX220 came out, the common consensus among the journalists was that it would have done far better as the Opel Speedster, although ironically that really was a British car, being to all intents and purposes a re-badged Lotus.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:12 pm



Quoting Banco (Reply 66):
far lower prestige than Opel).

heard that "Opel" on sale in Ireland, where Opel are heavily preferred over Vauxhall, are produced in the Vauxhall works (left side driving) and in the end get the decorum provided from Germany
-
Interesting is that the HQ of GM Europe is in Glattbrugg near Zurich-Airport .
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:40 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 42):
Most of the Cadillac line are great cars

Not true anymore. For the most part I think Cadillac makes junk. I really don't think using Led Zepplin songs in their ads are going to pry them away from the image Caddies are for old farts.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 42):
Cadillac should be in the high-end luxury market with Jaguar, Mercedes S-class and BMW 7-series.

I agree completely. Luxury that performs, instead of driving your living room sofa down the highway.

Quoting Fiatstilojtd (Reply 59):
That is absolutely not true. Maybe 30 or 40 years ago as N1120A mentioned. For example the Nissan Bluebird was a fine car in the 80's.

Ok so shoot me I was a tad off in my count. Thats what I get for posting under the influence.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26866
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:03 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 44):


The best Fords are the Mustang and Crown Victoria.
Excluding trucks, they are the best money makers for Ford and has the most loyal and repeat customers.

The Crown Vic makes money because the cops buy them.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 45):

So don't you think it's quite impressive that such a lower cost sedan is offering 400HP M5-like performance?

Offering lesser performance than a 9 year old car isn't all that impressive.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 45):

Then I'd say you need to rethink your position. The Corvette has been the pride and joy of Chevy for a long time now. Chevy & Corvette are most likely the first things people think of when either of the two words are mentioned.

Absolutely not. Corvette as a brand goes completely beyond Chevrolet as a brand.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 45):

The last "newer one" was made in 2002 - what year Camaros have you driven? I've driven both LS1 and LT1 equipped F-bodies with well over 100K on their clocks, and they still moved quite well.

I have driven LS1 and LT1 F-Bodies with 10 miles on the clock, 50,000 on the clock and over 100,000 on the clock and everything in between. They sound and go like crap after about 4 years.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 45):
Remember, a RWD $70K Z06 was able to beat an AWD Porsche 911 Turbo on the TRACK..........

It lost the comparison tests.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 46):

If it was such a basic design and with wheels on corner it should develop a skidpad rating of much higher than .87g.

Skidpad is normally a function of tires, which are probably the Mini's only drawback, and rather cheap and readily available tire/wheel upgrades can easily address that issue.. The Mini's slalom times are in heady territory

Quoting Banco (Reply 49):
I would think that the designers at now defunct Rover would have a bit of a row with you about saying the Mini was designed by BMW.

Well, the basic design belongs to the Rover people, but BMW applied it to a modern car.

Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 55):
The Mazda 3 is a rebadged Ford Focus.

Actually, other way around.

http://www.slate.com/id/2121075

Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 55):

What about F-Series trucks?

I didn't say best selling
 
Fiatstilojtd
Posts: 870
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:59 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:31 pm

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 68):
Thats what I get for posting under the influence.

So a new offense/felony whatever - after DUI now comes PUI Posting under influence. .

Quoting N1120A (Reply 69):
Actually, other way around.

http://www.slate.com/id/2121075

Handling was one of the few high points of the previous Focus and it's just as good in the new model. Like the two other cars built on its platform – the Mazda 3 and Volvo S40 – it's a very well sorted design.

Reference:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...ory/0,20867,16436815-13232,00.html

Mazda is basically owned by Ford.

[Edited 2008-02-13 11:54:34]
 
ABQ747
Posts: 648
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:22 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:35 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 69):
Actually, other way around.



Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 57):
Errr no. The Mazda Axela is not a rebadged focus. It sits on the Ford C1 platform which was developed in Germany by Ford/Mazda/Volvo engineers at the same time as a Global platform. Just because the Euro Focus was the first one to use it does not mean its a Focus platform or the 3 is a Focus. This first Ford Focus was a C-Max which is cousin to the Mazda Premacy (known as the Mazda 5 in the USA) hardly a Mazda 3. The traditional Euro Focus began using this platform a whole year after Mazda 3 which uses some Ford, some Mazda engineering on the underpinnings.

MotorTrend says that the Mazda3 is "Based on the new European-market Ford Focus." That's why I said that.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/wagon/112_0401_2004_mazda3/

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 57):
Now my friend the Ford Edge/Fusion are built on the CD3 platform. Which was designed by Mazda and used by Mazda a whole couple years before any Ford product used it.

I know the Fusion and Edge are based off the Mazda6 platform. My point was that those vehicles were not simply re-badged. The Fusion's platform is longer than the Madza6's, and it uses a different version of Ford's 3.0L Duratec engine.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 57):
Moreover where do you think the 2.3L I4 and the 3.0L V6 came from? Mazda.

The 2.3L I know is from Mazda, but the 3.0L and 3.5L V6s are from Ford.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 57):
In eseence, you my friend are wrong.

Not really.
 
RIHNOSAUR
Posts: 336
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:05 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:34 pm



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 68):
Not true anymore. For the most part I think Cadillac makes junk. I really don't think using Led Zepplin songs in their ads are going to pry them away from the image Caddies are for old farts.

Very true......finally some one had the guts to say it on this thread....I will second this one....
Don't get me wrong, I think for all the classic car enthusiasts I think caddy's are a fine choice ...however they should remain that way in history and call it quits.

leave them for old timers and classic lovers.

They are trying to compete with BMW and Mercedes..Lexus and Acura...and frankly the difference in quality and branding perception is enormous. There is no way in hell that I would buy a caddy over a BMW ..I am being very general here...not at all specific.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 68):
Luxury that performs, instead of driving your living room sofa down the highway.

That's my biggest problem with the concept of American car Luxury....Again for those who like classics I am not bashing ..you are entitled to that taste, however.IMHO in order to pay top dollars for a vehicle I want much more than:

1. 20 cup holders
2. Living room type seats
3. A suspension where I cannot feel the road...what I call "the titanic boat feeling"
4 A steering wheel that I can turn with my pinky
5. A 24 cylinder engine (Hyperbole of course), bigger than that of a 16 wheeler that gives me the worst fuel economy in the world...

....oh forgot to mention the cheap plastic look which characterizes many GM cars

Just my opinion thats all...

Bottom line: what GM and American auto makers should do to get out of this situation is to make good cars with the same reputation as Japanese and European cars....
Start making quality stuff so people's perception of American cars being crappy cars changes....

My 2 C
 
User avatar
LTU932
Posts: 13725
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RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:52 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 69):
The Crown Vic makes money because the cops buy them.

Yes, but isn't the Crown Vic due to be discontinued due to lack of demand?
 
aerobalance
Posts: 4313
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:35 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:25 pm



Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 46):
If it was such a basic design and with wheels on corner it should develop a skidpad rating of much higher than .87g.

I'm trying to figure out where the f*ck I can find skidpad quality dimensions and smooth surfaces in my everyday street driving that I do. Throw some bumps in the equation - as every street has gutters, uneven asphalt/concrete, potholes, undulations, and they're usually right on the apex of most street corners... Not every car with over-stiff springs, mega-shocks, forearm sized sway bars and mega-wide tires will take well to these obstacles.... It's usually the vehicle with a supple suspension that will absorb bumps at speed that will do well in the real world. Unless you like getting your fillings knocked out while you hit every bump while your suspension is bound up while cornering (if that's your sort of thing).
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:35 pm



Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 74):
It's usually the vehicle with a supple suspension that will absorb bumps at speed that will do well in the real world. Unless you like getting your fillings knocked out while you hit every bump while your suspension is bound up while cornering (if that's your sort of thing).

It depends what kind of roads you have. Straight, wide boulevards, you are probably right, but if you live in hilly or mountainous areas, having a supple suspension like an old Caddy is a great way to find yourself at the bottom of a ravine.
 
aerobalance
Posts: 4313
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:35 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:45 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 75):
having a supple suspension like an old Caddy

No. Supple like a current 535i, Porsche Carrera. Float-boat not spoken here
 
ABQ747
Posts: 648
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:22 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:00 pm



Quoting RIHNOSAUR (Reply 72):
Start making quality stuff so people's perception of American cars being crappy cars changes....

Ford and GM HAVE been stepping up their quality within the last couple of years, and it's starting to show. On the other hand, it looks like the Japanese automakers have been running into more quality problems.

Examples:
Toyota Tacoma surge issues:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE9H1arjFhE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOAl-hh_-v4

Camry transmission problems and build quality issues:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/dir...&model=Camry&ed_makeindex=.f0c6927

Toyota Sienna door hinges can break:
http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/3643


Honda Pilot stranded edmunds.com editor:
http://www.edmunds.com/news/column/carmudgeon/100237/article.html

Honda Fit needed its transmission rebuilt after only 20,000 miles:
http://blogs.edmunds.com/.eea2ace

Japanese cars aren't as bulletproof as people make them out to be.
 
CupraIbiza
Posts: 547
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:55 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:12 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 64):
An M5 has 507HP, actually, and more importantly has the suspension and chassis to deal with it. The G8 seems like an excellent car, especially for the money, but equal to an M5? No.

The original statement was that the Holden Calais V was a better performer than a BMW 550 - not an M5
 
Stretch 8
Posts: 2468
Joined: Fri May 28, 1999 4:00 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:45 pm

I did my part, buying a new 2007 Chevrolet Tahoe (it runs on ethanol) for my wife. I retain my BMW 5 series. Best of both worlds.
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:21 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 69):
The Crown Vic makes money because the cops buy them.

And cops and taxi companies use them because they are incredibly strong, durable, and reliable vehicles. In fact there's really nothing quite like the Vic being built today. Try taking any FWD car on pursuits or continuous use over very rough roads, hopping over curbs, and going off road. They wouldn't last long at all compared the RWD Crown Vic, which is basically a truck with a car body. That's why several departments have been very disappointed with FWD vehicles such as the Impala - they just can't take what a Vic can, period.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 69):
Offering lesser performance than a 9 year old car isn't all that impressive.

Lesser performance? Where do you come up with that? The previous generation M5 was built up to 2003, BTW - but it really doesn' t matter. You're pushing the argument that age as any relevance at all with regards to performance figures or the comparison between the G8 and the M5, but it doesn't matter. You just don't want to admit that it's impressive that a $30K vehicle is offering 400HP, M5(E39)-like performance. I'd love to see your little M3 against the G8, BTW.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 69):
Absolutely not. Corvette as a brand goes completely beyond Chevrolet as a brand.

Yeah, good luck convincing that idea to any Chevy or Corvette fan. You will have great success, I promise.  Yeah sure

Quoting N1120A (Reply 69):
I have driven LS1 and LT1 F-Bodies with 10 miles on the clock, 50,000 on the clock and over 100,000 on the clock and everything in between. They sound and go like crap after about 4 years.

Well I can gaurantee that you don't have as much time behind the wheel of them as I do, and I say you're dead wrong. The V8 will always sound better than any 6 cylinder. As far as how the F-bodies peform with regards to mileage, it depends completely how you take care of them, and that goes for any other vehicle.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 69):
It lost the comparison tests.

Completely irrelevant. We weren't talking about preferences, we're we? The issue is PERFORMANCE, and the C6 has done exceptionally well. Don't change the topic, you spouted without researching and you found yourself WRONG.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/corvette...orsche-911-turbo-around-track.html

You have insinuated several times in this thread that the Corvette cannot handle, and you were wrong. The thing pulls higher Gs and easily out-handles an AWD 911 Turbo. Give it a rest.....you were wrong.





-NWA742
 
LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2001 12:57 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:44 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 64):
An M5 has 507HP, actually, and more importantly has the suspension and chassis to deal with it. The G8 seems like an excellent car, especially for the money, but equal to an M5? No.

He was talking about the last M5

Quoting N1120A (Reply 69):
I have driven LS1 and LT1 F-Bodies with 10 miles on the clock, 50,000 on the clock and over 100,000 on the clock and everything in between. They sound and go like crap after about 4 years.

I have an LT1 B-Body, even older thats 12 years old...not only does it make the sound of 20 of your M3s, it appreciates in value every year. Beat that Reza  Silly

Quoting N1120A (Reply 69):
Skidpad is normally a function of tires, which are probably the Mini's only drawback, and rather cheap and readily available tire/wheel upgrades can easily address that issue.. The Mini's slalom times are in heady territory

You can say that for any car, not just the Mini.

Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 71):
MotorTrend says that the Mazda3 is "Based on the new European-market Ford Focus." That's why I said that.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...zda3/

Well the American Focuses uses the old C170 platform till the 2010 model year, but nonetheless the C1 platform used on the 3 is not "from" a Euro Focus, it just happens to also use it.

Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 71):
know the Fusion and Edge are based off the Mazda6 platform. My point was that those vehicles were not simply re-badged. The Fusion's platform is longer than the Madza6's, and it uses a different version of Ford's 3.0L Duratec engine.

The Fusion uses a Duratec V6 which is Mazda engineered as a Mazda AJ, they were first to bore this out, then first used in America on the Taurus. The only difference is the Fusion engine has VVT...still the same damn engine with same bore out of same factory.

I guess if you really want to be anal you could have some argument that the 3.0L Duratec was bored out from the 2.5L made for the Euro Mondeo/US Contour back in the day

Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 74):
I'm trying to figure out where the f*ck I can find skidpad quality dimensions and smooth surfaces in my everyday street driving that I do. Throw some bumps in the equation - as every street has gutters, uneven asphalt/concrete, potholes, undulations, and they're usually right on the apex of most street corners... Not every car with over-stiff springs, mega-shocks, forearm sized sway bars and mega-wide tires will take well to these obstacles.... It's usually the vehicle with a supple suspension that will absorb bumps at speed that will do well in the real world. Unless you like getting your fillings knocked out while you hit every bump while your suspension is bound up while cornering (if that's your sort of thing).

I dont. I dont do corners because I dont pretend to live in Breckenridge, Colorado like 99% of people here. I have no need for an Impreza when I have a Jeep that outhandles it in the snow and has superior 4WD, and a sedan that rapes everything on the roads of the 2 flat states I live in: Florida and Illinois that isnt either heavily modified for tens of thousands of dollars with forced induction or something that costs above 100,000k.

To each his own. When I move to Lugano or Innsbruck then I shall switch to a Ford Focus ST or possibly an AWD Impreza.
 
CupraIbiza
Posts: 547
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:55 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:32 am



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 80):
In fact there's really nothing quite like the Vic being built today.

Yes there is its called a Ford Falcon. Available in 190kw 6 cyl, 240kw 6 cyl turbo and 270kW odd V8. If a Holden Commodore can become a Pontiac G8 a Ford Falcon can easily become the next generation Crown Vic
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:15 am



Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 81):
He was talking about the last M5

Hardly fair to compare a current car to a car that is no longer in production. My Ford Taurus would then beat the hell out of a 1955 Ferrari around any track.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 80):
You have insinuated several times in this thread that the Corvette cannot handle, and you were wrong. The thing pulls higher Gs and easily out-handles an AWD 911 Turbo. Give it a rest.....you were wrong.

To quote Richard Hammond when he was testing the new Corvette, "Two words: Leaf Springs"

Yes, the car can now turn. But it's still built like a Chevy, with cheap plastics all around you, and the 19th century suspension, which was firmed up to give good track performance, is so hard it will rattle the fillings out of your teeth.

The real trick, which Chevy has yet to figure out (and granted, it is an extremely challenging thing to do) is to provide a suspension that is smooth and civilized when driving around normally, and holds the road when you start pushing.
 
LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2001 12:57 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:55 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 83):
Hardly fair to compare a current car to a car that is no longer in production. My Ford Taurus would then beat the hell out of a 1955 Ferrari around any track.

Charles, the Holden Commodore has been in production since 1978. The last generation before this one was 1997-2006 which included later V8s anywhere from 312-400hp.

Apples to Apples please.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 83):
To quote Richard Hammond when he was testing the new Corvette, "Two words: Leaf Springs"

No, it has one transverse leaf spring which is not attached to the freaking axle. It is the better solution as it allows the car to be lower to the ground, have less weight and act as a anti roll bar. There is no point in the Corvette of having a spring in the shape of a traditional O spring just to satisfy you and Top Gear when the Transverse does the job better.
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:02 am



Quoting RIHNOSAUR (Reply 72):
1. 20 cup holders

I agree the number of cup holders is getting insane. Intelligence says limit it to 1 per occupant. However, BMW needs to adapt a little to the US market and make a cup holder that will hold an American cup. It is pretty silly to pay $50,000 for a car and have to turn around and buy a $5 cup holder on the way home from the dealership. We wouldn't want to spill our 44oz bladder buster on those vinyl seats.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 80):
And cops and taxi companies use them because they are incredibly strong, durable, and reliable vehicles.

That is really a matter of opinion. They are a big car that doesn't cost much. Parts are also cheap

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 80):
there's really nothing quite like the Vic being built today

There is a reason. Nobody in their right mind would buy one

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 80):
Try taking any FWD car on pursuits or continuous use over very rough roads, hopping over curbs, and going off road.

My department has Impalas. They are pure shit. But they are just about as shitty as a Crown Vic. If someone set out to build a better police car the law enforcement world would flock to their door.. Look at how fast departments jumped to try out the Charger. Time will tell if Dodge finally invented the better mousetrap.
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:07 am



Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 2):
You need to read between the lines on this one,


Agreed.
GM’s core automotive business generated record revenue of $178 billion in 2007, a $7 billion improvement over 2006. Also, in November 2006 they sold 51% of GMAC which accounts for some year over year variation as well.
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:21 am



Quoting 767Lover (Reply 86):
GM’s core automotive business generated record revenue of $178 billion in 2007, a $7 billion improvement over 2006. Also, in November 2006 they sold 51% of GMAC which accounts for some year over year variation as well.

GM's revenue fell from $205.6 billion to $181.1
Gross Margin is down from $41.9 billion to $14.9
Operating Cash Flow is up, but still $11.8 billion in the red.

Hardly a promissing picture.

http://finance.google.com/finance?fstype=ii&q=NYSE:GM&hl=en
 
LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2001 12:57 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:36 am



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 85):
My department has Impalas. They are pure shit. But they are just about as shitty as a Crown Vic. If someone set out to build a better police car the law enforcement world would flock to their door.. Look at how fast departments jumped to try out the Charger. Time will tell if Dodge finally invented the better mousetrap.

Look at the brightside, if youre Dodge you cant do worse. The last time they made cops a vehicle.....the Stratus.  Silly
 
CupraIbiza
Posts: 547
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:55 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:44 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 83):
Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 81):
He was talking about the last M5

Hardly fair to compare a current car to a car that is no longer in production. My Ford Taurus would then beat the hell out of a 1955 Ferrari around any track.

It was never an M5 that I mentioned. Current past or future.

The statement I made in a nutshell was that the Pontiac G8 had better ride and handling than a BMW 550

THAT IS BMW 550

NOT M5

REPEAT

NOT M5
 
flight152
Posts: 3517
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 8:04 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:49 am



Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 89):
The statement I made in a nutshell was that the Pontiac G8 had better ride and handling than a BMW 550

..and we still don't beleive it.
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:01 am



Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 89):
The statement I made in a nutshell was that the Pontiac G8 had better ride and handling than a BMW 550

THAT IS BMW 550

NOT M5

REPEAT

NOT M5

I used to own a 540, and that was one hell of a nice driving car. I guess we'll see.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:48 am



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 68):
Caddies are for old farts.



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 68):
uxury that performs, instead of driving your living room sofa down the highway.

Nothing wrong with catering to old people. Their money is just as good as some 30 year old. Nothing wrong with driving a living room sofa down the highway either. Many people DO including myself (34 years old) like the soft suspension. Cadillac hasn't made that kind of vehicle since the 1996 Fleetwood Brougham. That was the last real Cadillac IMHO.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 69):
The Crown Vic makes money because the cops buy them.

Doesn't matter WHO buys them. Everyone made is sold and is pure profit for Ford. Making a profit is what it is all about.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 73):
es, but isn't the Crown Vic due to be discontinued due to lack of demand?

That's due to poor marketing by Ford. When was the last time you seen a commercial or magazine ad for a Ford Crown Victoria?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 64):
An M5 has 507HP, actually, and more importantly has the suspension and chassis to deal with it. The G8 seems like an excellent car, especially for the money, but equal to an M5? No.

Dude, they aren't even in the same price category.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 75):
Straight, wide boulevards, you are probably right, but if you live in hilly or mountainous areas, having a supple suspension like an old Caddy is a great way to find yourself at the bottom of a ravine.

Most people live in the flat-lands. Just pull up any map that shows population density. Those who do live in mountainous regions usually drives Ford pick up trucks with 4wheel drive.
Now if you drive I-80 or US-50 between Sacramento and Reno during the winter, most vehicles you see at the bottom of a ravine is high-end BMW, Lexus, Mercedes and Infinity SUVs and crossover SUVs. Yet they are being pulled out of ditches by Ford F-350s.
No isn't that ironic?  scratchchin 
 
LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2001 12:57 pm

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:54 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 92):
Most people live in the flat-lands. Just pull up any map that shows population density. Those who do live in mountainous regions usually drives Ford pick up trucks with 4wheel drive.
Now if you drive I-80 or US-50 between Sacramento and Reno during the winter, most vehicles you see at the bottom of a ravine is high-end BMW, Lexus, Mercedes and Infinity SUVs and crossover SUVs. Yet they are being pulled out of ditches by Ford F-350s.
No isn't that ironic?

I hate people who constantly give me their schpeel about how their Import thats an SUV or AWD vehicle is godly.

The harsher the environment the more American SUV/Pickups you see. From the places Ive been Alaska, Southern Utah, Mountains in Yukon territory and EVERY state in the West, deserts of Arizona/NM/Texas and also heavy snow areas like UP and N. Minn. The reality of the situation is youre screwed if you drive your Infiniti or Mazda CX7/9 or any other useless crap like the X5 and live on an everyday basis in such a land.

In my eyes the only exception would be the Toyota LandCruiser, a solid off roader. I would not even put the Touareg in this group because its just too damn expensive and prone to a costly breakdown and a dealer thats hundreds of miles away. The more gadgetry and electronics the more shit that can go wrong.
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:07 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 87):
GM's revenue fell from $205.6 billion to $181.1
Gross Margin is down from $41.9 billion to $14.9
Operating Cash Flow is up, but still $11.8 billion in the red.

Hardly a promissing picture.

http://finance.google.com/finance?fs...hl=en

Yes, I am aware of that. I was pointing out that the core automotive business did okay, since some of the comments on the thread seemed to indicate that nobody was buying their cars.
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:24 pm



Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 88):
The last time they made cops a vehicle.....the Stratus.

My department had a few Intrepids. It was getting to the point we were talking about staging a horrible accident with a road flare to get rid of the last one. Towards the end it smoked so bad people would flag you down to tell you the car was on fire. To Dodge's credit no amount of thrashing managed to kill the car in the end. Finally our new car, an Impala (which was wrecked when it was 3 days old) is back from the shop so some poor sucker will probably pay $500 for our last Intrepid at auction in a month or two.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 92):
Nothing wrong with catering to old people.

True, until they die, then your old people become yesterday's young people. As I may have mentioned my grandfather has been driving Caddies since the 1950s. I have a feeling in 50 years the big auto brand for the 20-40yr old car buyer will be the big brand for the old farts. The difference is other brands are still making strides towards winning new buyers. Cadillac (and OLDsmobile) waited too long to realize their market share was dying off.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 92):
Those who do live in mountainous regions usually drives Ford pick up trucks with 4wheel drive.

I know some people who swear by a 2 wheel drive Ford Ranger in the snow. They are going down the highway just fine while the clown with the diesel F-350 with 4wd is upside down in the median. The bottom line is its the driver, not the vehicle.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:38 am



Quoting 767Lover (Reply 94):
I was pointing out that the core automotive business did okay, since some of the comments on the thread seemed to indicate that nobody was buying their cars.

Thanks for pointing that out. GM is making some good cars and lots of people are buying them.
Their problems have more to do with a hostile business environment that heavily favors imports from countries that have national health-care. A major expense that German, Japanese and Swedish auto manufactures don't have to worry about.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 95):
True, until they die, then your old people become yesterday's young people. As I may have mentioned my grandfather has been driving Caddies since the 1950s. I have a feeling in 50 years the big auto brand for the 20-40yr old car buyer will be the big brand for the old farts. The difference is other brands are still making strides towards winning new buyers. Cadillac (and OLDsmobile) waited too long to realize their market share was dying off.

Well it would help if GM bothered to advertise them. Mercury on the other hand seems to be doing fine and every Grand Marquis sold is a net profit.
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:11 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 64):
An M5 has 507HP, actually, and more importantly has the suspension and chassis to deal with it. The G8 seems like an excellent car, especially for the money, but equal to an M5? No.

You're talking about the current M5, not the previous E39 generation, that Motor Trend was referring to:



This is the one - a 400HP V8 beast. The fact that a $30K G8 reminds reviewers of this M5 is incredible, actually. And apparentely it DOES have the suspension and chassis to deal with the power. Read above regarding the track results of the Holden that the G8 is based on. Hopefully they won't screw up the suspension for the G8, and if they don't, it will be a beast on the line and on the track.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 83):
Hardly fair to compare a current car to a car that is no longer in production.

No, it's not. Besides, they only talked about that previous generation M5 to provide a reference point for the performance the G8 will offer. Comparing current models to previous models is common and fair - what was going through the designing teams' heads at Ford when they made the new Mustang? That's right, the older, classic Mustangs.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 85):
That is really a matter of opinion.

A matter of an extremely widespread and rarely challenged opinion.


Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 85):
Nobody in their right mind would buy one

Now isn't that a matter of opinion?



-NWA742
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:54 am



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 97):

Now isn't that a matter of opinion?

I guess there I go applying common sense. I know people are falling over themselves to buy a Crown Vic, or Grand Marquis that loses $10,000 in value the moment it drives off the lot. Then another $5,000 in value at the first stop light. I would say go look at all of them sitting on a Ford dealer lot but the dealers don't even order very many of these cars because once you take out the fleet sales they just don't move. For a personal car you can get a lot more car for the same money with something else.

Ask around police departments. Nobody is so in love with the Crown Vic that they wouldn't embrace a newcomer with open arms. The Crown Vic is old technology and Ford has shown time and time again they have zero interest in developing the car any further. Ford is happy to rest on its laurels and keep the Crown Vic line rolling making extremely average police cars. Maybe Dodge will wake them up.
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss

Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:10 am



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 98):
I know people are falling over themselves to buy a Crown Vic, or Grand Marquis that loses $10,000 in value the moment it drives off the lot.

Yep, that's why anybody with common sense would never buy one new.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 98):
Ask around police departments. Nobody is so in love with the Crown Vic that they wouldn't embrace a newcomer with open arms.

Never said they were.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 98):
The Crown Vic is old technology

Well newer isn't always better, especially in the auto industry.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 98):
Ford has shown time and time again they have zero interest in developing the car any further.

They don't want to develop it any further, but they do want to replace it. It's disappointing that it wont' be in the short run, though. Rumors are flying that the concept Ford Interceptor will eventually be the basis for the next Ford police vehicle package.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 98):
Maybe Dodge will wake them up.

It will indeed be interesting to see how the Magnums/Chargers perform in the long run doing police work. The DPS ones cruising around here look sharp.



-NWA742

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