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ltbewr
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:07 pm

Perhaps the advertisers ought to put pressure on those newspapers, threaten to not advertise in those newspapers out of fear of being protested upon as supporting the newspapers. If enough regular advertisers like retail stores, banks, car dealers were to suspend ads for a few weeks to a month, it might make them rethink their decision. Perhaps subscribers to the papers should cancel their subscriptions in mass in protest, as well as not buy those papers for a couple of weeks.
I know in the USA that has happened and will work if a newspaper were to publish offensive materials or political cartoons that would be offensive as to a faith belief, race, gender and so on.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:09 pm



Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 29):
Last time the Polaks stuck their head into the angry Muslim mouth we beat them sensless and gave them a taste of what its like to come knocking when youre not wanted. I am positive almost everyone would do the same now as back then if there was a true merit and danger to weed out this ideological crap.

I must have been sick that day they gave that lesson in history at school.
 
aloges
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:35 pm

UPDATE: I just heard on the radio that they have printed them. I had been under the impression they were only considering.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 51):
Perhaps the advertisers ought to put pressure on those newspapers, threaten to not advertise in those newspapers out of fear of being protested upon as supporting the newspapers.

Why fear? I always hear that word in these fabricated events, "fear". Why would advertisers not protest out of disagreement with tasteless content?

[Edited 2008-02-13 06:35:56]
 
cfalk
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:53 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 50):
This guy is an idiot.Allah in Arabic is God.So he really was insulting all religions as they all believe in god.His remarks make me smile and not angry.Stupidity i don't take it seriousely.

The difference is that most people in the world can take it. We have artists who make fun (and sometimes worse) of christianity, judeism and other religions all the time.

The worst I can recall was a crucifixion scene covered in excrement - paid for by federal grant money, no less. Some of you might remember the story. Were people upset? Absolutely. It was insulting as hell. But did anyone die because of it? Were there riots? No. Actually what offended people the most was that taxpayer funds were used to make the so-called "art". Had the "artist" done this piece on his own, very few people would have paid any attention.

But with Islam, we have two problems.

1) The ban in Islamic texts of images of Mohammed. I don't have time to research it right now, but I find this dubious, as there are a lot of ancient images of the prophet. This ban was probably something more recent, like something the Wahabis came up with.

2) The very specific instruction to Muslims by Mohammed to subdue non-muslim countries to their will. The cartoons are an excuse, nothing more. The victory is symbolic, and highly valuable in a Muslim context. If a non-muslim country fears Islam to the point that they will change their laws and their behaviour (e.g. limit free speech and ban anything that insults Islam) in order to avoid incuring the wrath of Islam, that is a very significant victory for them, according to scripture, because by having others cower before Islam, they have in a very real sense submitted to Islam and accepted its authority, which satisfies at least one of mohammed's instructions.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:16 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 54):
) The ban in Islamic texts of images of Mohammed. I don't have time to research it right now, but I find this dubious, as there are a lot of ancient images of the prophet. This ban was probably something more recent, like something the Wahabis came up with.

The only sect that allows pictures or portrait of prophet Mohammed are the Shia.I am not Saudi by birth but i am a Sunni and since i was small i knew that the pictures of Mohammed are forbidden.Nothing to do with Wahabism(not my cup of coffee)

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 54):
The very specific instruction to Muslims by Mohammed to subdue non-muslim countries to their will. The cartoons are an excuse, nothing more. The victory is symbolic, and highly valuable in a Muslim context. If a non-muslim country fears Islam to the point that they will change their laws and their behaviour (e.g. limit free speech and ban anything that insults Islam) in order to avoid incuring the wrath of Islam, that is a very significant victory for them, according to scripture, because by having others cower before Islam, they have in a very real sense submitted to Islam and accepted its authority, which satisfies at least one of mohammed's instructions.

I am against limiting free speech but in the same time how much insult against my believes is acceptable.Since 9/11 Islam was at the receiving end of the worst insults ever.Now i don't think in a matter of facts i know it that Islam as a religion never called for mass murder,nor criminal acts but in every religion you will find some idiot extremists including Islam.Are all Muslims responsible for that.NO.My Islam as i see it calls for peace,good relation and love.Please do not insult 99.9% of Muslims for the actions of 0.01% of idiots extremists.
The first publications of those cartoons i took it as the usual and steady bashing of Islam(what's new).The riots that followed angered me more that the cartoons themselves.But why republishing them again? The whole world saw them on TV,the web and in print.I see that not as free expression but as a deliberate call for another riot.To prove what?That you can prove free of expression but it was proven already.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:23 pm



Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 48):
And none of the embassies burnt down, but they (three or four) were badly damaged.

Now, THAT is a major difference... Yeah sure Splitting hairs as usual, MAF?

No, not at all !  no   no   no  He spoke about " police standing by as, "" and this simply was NOT the case, as police tried to prevent it and then to stop it and the firefighters stopped the fire.
-

Quoting Surfpunk (Reply 19):
I agree with his sentiment

oh, sure. And how do you punch God ?
-

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 52):
Last time the Polaks stuck their head into the angry Muslim mouth we beat them sensless and gave them a taste of what its like to come knocking when youre not wanted. I am positive almost everyone would do the same now as back then if there was a true merit and danger to weed out this ideological crap.

I must have been sick that day they gave that lesson in history at school.



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 54):
1) The ban in Islamic texts of images of Mohammed. I don't have time to research it right now, but I find this dubious, as there are a lot of ancient images of the prophet. This ban was probably something more recent, like something the Wahabis came up with.

the point is not time but interpretation. In case of pictures from Mosques in Iran you may see many beautiful pictures, while Mosques in most of the Arab World have NO pictures but only ornaments. By strict interpretation, the Koran demands that no human beings are portrayed, while in a liberal interpretation it says that God canNOT be portrayed. As Mohammed is just a prophet, this would make THE difference.
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oldtimer
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:45 pm

I think most of the posters on this thread critisizing the Danish papers have not read or totally ignored the reasons behind this reprinting. It is because of the alleged threat to murder one of the cartoonists and stems from the arrest of three suspects. I am not saying this is wrong or right, but don't ignore why this is happening.
My own personnel view is i wish that Islam would come out of the 15th century into the 21st, Christians in the 15th century were just as bigoted then but most have at least grown out of it.

Oldtimer
 
windshear
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:07 pm

The cartoons are printed today, because the Danish PET (Intelligence) yesterday, arrested 3 men with 'terrorist attack type plans' to kill Erik Westergaard (The cartoonist who drew the bomb turban). BBC Story

In a move of solidarity the newspapers: Berlingske Tidende, Fyns stifttidende, Information, Nyheds avisen and Politiken also published the bomb turban cartoon today.

The consensus amongst the above mentioned papers is that the murder plans proves, somewhat, that this is a freedom of speech struggle, and not just a weak and narrow minded attempt to insult Muslims, as some have called it.

Fears are now of course, that Muslims around the world will do what they did the last time, threaten, curse and use violence as a response to the infantile, chaotic and ambivalent frustration with the thought, that somewhere in Europe sits at least one man, who dares to defy their will.

Lets sit back and watch what will happen...

Boaz.
 
surfpunk
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:57 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 56):
Quoting Surfpunk (Reply 19):
I agree with his sentiment

oh, sure. And how do you punch God ?

Wow. Way to completely take what I said out of context by only quoting a fragment of what I said. Michael Moore would be proud.

Here is what I actually said:

Quoting Surfpunk (Reply 19):
Personally, I agree with his sentiment that problems arising from freedom of speech should be answered with more freedom of speech, not less.

Where exactly did I indicate that I agree with the God-punching sentiment?

Thought so.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:21 pm

-

Quoting Surfpunk (Reply 59):
ow do you punch God ?

Wow. Way to completely take what I said out of context by only quoting a fragment of what I said. Michael Moore would be proud.

You apparently do NOT check what texts you put up as reference-links. In there you have the statement :
-
""""" I’m not just a Christpuncher, I’m also an Allahpuncher """"
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and so, the question is highly justified and therefore herewith brought up again :
-
How do you punch God ?
-
 
surfpunk
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:34 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 50):
This guy is an idiot.Allah in Arabic is God.So he really was insulting all religions as they all believe in god.His remarks make me smile and not angry.Stupidity i don't take it seriousely.

This guy is also an avowed atheist.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 60):
You apparently do NOT check what texts you put up as reference-links. In there you have the statement :
-
""""" I’m not just a Christpuncher, I’m also an Allahpuncher """"
-
and so, the question is highly justified and therefore herewith brought up again :
-
How do you punch God ?

Is there some sort of reading comprehension issue here? Read what I wrote (bold emphasis in particular):

Quoting Surfpunk (Reply 19):
Personally, I agree with his sentiment that problems arising from freedom of speech should be answered with more freedom of speech, not less.

I didn't say I agreed with every sentiment that the guy made/had, I specifically stated that I agreed with his sentiment about FREE SPEECH (that issues with it should be answered with more freedom, not less). You are using a red herring (specifically a straw man) to try to paint me into a corner that I am nowhere near.

[Edited 2008-02-13 12:40:44]
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:55 pm



Quoting Surfpunk (Reply 61):
bold emphasis

ok, saw it. You were OPPOSED to that statement. So sorry !
 
jcs17
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:26 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 55):
Please do not insult 99.9% of Muslims for the actions of 0.01% of idiots extremists.

It depends on how you define extremist. Is that .01% that are "extremist" Muslims who would strap a bomb to their chest and blow themselves up in Baghdad or Jerusalem killing women and children? Is "extremist" those Muslims who support to a degree, their fellow Muslims, when they commit atrocities like these (a larger percentage than .01). What about the Muslims who profess that the world should be under Sharia law even if it is done by force (a larger percentage than .01)? What about those Muslims who have a profound hatred for the Jewish people (a larger percentage than .01)? What about those Muslims who believe that 9/11 was a setup by Mossad or the US government to implicate Muslims (a much larger percentage than .01)?
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:38 pm



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 63):
It depends on how you define extremist. Is that .01% that are "extremist" Muslims who would strap a bomb to their chest and blow themselves up in Baghdad or Jerusalem killing women and children? Is "extremist" those Muslims who support to a degree, their fellow Muslims, when they commit atrocities like these (a larger percentage than .01). What about the Muslims who profess that the world should be under Sharia law even if it is done by force (a larger percentage than .01)? What about those Muslims who have a profound hatred for the Jewish people (a larger percentage than .01)? What about those Muslims who believe that 9/11 was a setup by Mossad or the US government to implicate Muslims (a much larger percentage than .01)?

> strap a bomb etc ? far less than .01%
> support such folks ? difficult to ascertain, but less than 3%
> the world to be under Sharia law ? depending on various thing and so between 4% and 15%
> profound hatred for the Jewish people ? not to quantify
> profound hatred for the Israeli people ? YOU said "profound" and so it is 3% to 15%
> believe that 11Sep01 ..... ? depending on season, between 1% and 25%
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sources : ZERO; conclusive statistics about this : ZERO; polls of relevance : ZERO
-
 
[email protected]
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:08 pm



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 63):
Is that .01% that are "extremist" Muslims who would strap a bomb to their chest and blow themselves up in Baghdad or Jerusalem killing women and children?

Given the global muslim population (around 1.3 billion) and the number of annual terrorist attacks, .01% sounds about right, if it was significantly more than that, which i highly doubt, you'd have suicide bombings on a daily basis.

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 63):
Is "extremist" those Muslims who support to a degree, their fellow Muslims, when they commit atrocities like these (a larger percentage than .01

Put it in the context of the global muslim population, anything more than .01% is still totally insignificant, what you're trying to imply is that a large percentage of muslims are terrorist sympathisers, which most people with a brain cell will realise is a myth.

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 63):
What about the Muslims who profess that the world should be under Sharia law even if it is done by force (a larger percentage than .01)

Hardly any muslims that i know (i know know more than you) want sharia law, certainly not on a global scale as you imagine. And you have no way of knowing
how many muslims want sharia law. And given the fact that sharia law defines how a muslim lives his/her life, why are you suprised?

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 63):
What about those Muslims who have a profound hatred for the Jewish people (a larger percentage than .01)?

No more than the number of Americans who have a profound hatred for Islam or anything muslim, i.e Islamophobia.

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 63):
What about those Muslims who believe that 9/11 was a setup by Mossad or the US government to implicate Muslims (a much larger percentage than .01)?

Again it's insignificant given the worldwide muslim population, you want to believe it's a large percentage so you can back up your argument. Another media-inspired muslim myth.
 
cfalk
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:16 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 64):
> strap a bomb etc ? far less than .01%
> support such folks ? difficult to ascertain, but less than 3%
> the world to be under Sharia law ? depending on various thing and so between 4% and 15%
> profound hatred for the Jewish people ? not to quantify
> profound hatred for the Israeli people ? YOU said "profound" and so it is 3% to 15%
> believe that 11Sep01 ..... ? depending on season, between 1% and 25%

I think you seriously underestimate extremist ideals.

In the UK, where you would think that they should know better, the percent of Muslims who want Sharia law is 40%. I would expect the poor illiterate masses in muslim countries would push that number far higher. Look at Afghanistan. They had a chance at democracy, at choosing secular freedoms, but no, they chose Sharia. Idiots.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...xml=/news/2006/02/19/nsharia19.xml

The same poll in the UK found that 7% believed that Western culture is corrupt and immoral, and that Islam must overthrow it by any means necessary, including force. If you add those people who refused to answer the question (80% said that "western culture is not perfect but muslims should try to get along"), you have a full 20% of British Muslims who sound just about ready to blow up.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2006/02/19/nsharia119big.jpg

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2006/02/19/nsharia119big.jpg

Also, 13% believe it is OK to use violence to attack anyone who insults Islam (plus 8% refused to answer).

20% sympathized with the 7/7 London bombers (5% refused to answer)

And these are educated Muslims living in just about the most tolerant, open-door society in the world.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:19 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 66):
In the UK, where you would think that they should know better, the percent of Muslims who want Sharia law is 40%.

Wrong. It was so in some media polls. The reality in comprehensive secret votings would be different.
-

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 66):
Look at Afghanistan. They had a chance at democracy, at choosing secular freedoms, but no, they chose Sharia. Idiots.

There was no chance for democracy in Afghanistan and that country simply is lost for democracy for the time being. Secular freedoms were upheld by the government of President Najibullah, but the Taliban thanks to US and Pakistani support could terminate his government.
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Most of the Arab World does not have the Sharia, full Sharia only is in force in the KSA, and a mix of civil law with Sharia in Bahrain, Qatar, UAE and Oman.
-

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 66):
found that 7% believed that Western culture is corrupt and immoral, and that Islam must overthrow it

7% ? Less than 10% even.
-

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 66):
13% believe it is OK to use violence to attack anyone who insults Islam

fairly high, but less than 15% still --- and an open question about what "insulting Islam" is
-

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 66):
20% sympathized with the 7/7 London bombers

"sympathizing" is not necessarily approving. However, in democratic elections, fundamentalists generally achieve between 10 and 30 percent, and so, this percentage sounds correct
-
 
jcs17
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:21 pm

Here you go, Arsenal:

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=253

From Feb '06:

http://pewglobal.org/reports/images/253-5.gif

http://pewglobal.org/reports/images/253-4.gif

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 65):
Put it in the context of the global muslim population, anything more than .01% is still totally insignificant, what you're trying to imply is that a large percentage of muslims are terrorist sympathisers, which most people with a brain cell will realise is a myth.

Incorrect. Large percentage? I consider those above, in the context in which it was placed, large percentages.

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 65):
Hardly any muslims that i know (i know know more than you) want sharia law, certainly not on a global scale as you imagine. And you have no way of knowing
how many muslims want sharia law. And given the fact that sharia law defines how a muslim lives his/her life, why are you suprised?

Read a bit more about Sharia law. It dictates how not only how a Muslim lives their life, but also how those of other religions are supposed to live their lives. To put it politely, not since the Middle Ages in the Europe have women and minority religions have had less rights. By the way, just send me your address and the trophy for having "More Muslim Friends than JCS17" will be sent promptly. That's actually great... it's like when you make a racist joke, you can say, "Wait, wait I have black friends though!"

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 65):

No more than the number of Americans who have a profound hatred for Islam or anything muslim, i.e Islamophobia.

Actually, compared to Muslims, Americans are far more tolerant of Muslims than vice versa.

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 65):

Again it's insignificant given the worldwide muslim population, you want to believe it's a large percentage so you can back up your argument. Another media-inspired muslim myth.

Media-inspired? Please tell me your joking! The Muslims are a "protected class" in the media and often get sympathetic coverage. Of course, it's hard to cover 9/11 or 7/7 with a pro-Muslim bias. However, if you look at the coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, or the Second Lebanon War, I hardly think the poor Muslims get a bad shake in the media.
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:52 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 52):
I must have been sick that day they gave that lesson in history at school.

Maybe I can recollect your memories then: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna

Considering that the Hapsburg - Ottoman Wars lasted from 1526-1791 you missed alot of history lessons.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:07 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 68):
Considering that the Hapsburg - Ottoman Wars lasted from 1526-1791 you missed alot of history lessons.

Thank you for the history lesson.Shows that i was not a great student.
Still that was Ottoman empire against Vienna.Ottoman empire did invade other Muslim country's,and there expansion did have nothing to do with expanding Islam to Europe.A lot of Muslim country's rebelled against them.

[Edited 2008-02-13 17:08:18]
 
cfalk
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:50 am



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 66):
Wrong. It was so in some media polls. The reality in comprehensive secret votings would be different.

Have any evidence for that? If anything I would think that secret voting would make the results far worse.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 66):
Most of the Arab World does not have the Sharia, full Sharia only is in force in the KSA, and a mix of civil law with Sharia in Bahrain, Qatar, UAE and Oman.

One more arguement why we should not have any of it in our countries.

And by the way, you underestimate the extent of Sharia. In the constitutions of Egypt and Malaysia, for example (two Muslim states considered relatively modern), their constitutions state that the founding basis of the law is Sharia.

http://www.writtenweb.com/novels/cairo/islamiclaw/islamiclaw.htm

Quote:
Many moderate Islamic countries often face rebellious fundamental Muslims who fight, often through terrorists means, for a return to strict Sharia. In the late 1970s, fundamentalist political pressure forced somewhat secular countries such as Kuwait, Libya, the United Arab Emirates and Egypt to establish review bodies to revise existing laws according to Sharia principles.[14] Libya's Muammar Qaddafi was one of the first to officially Islamize a legal system by replacing Westernized laws with Sharia statutory rules.[15] In 1990, Pakistan returned to an Islamic criminal law doctrine that had been abandoned for 200 years.[16]

In Egypt the modern trend has been to subject the legal rules in the Egyptian Civil Code to the overriding public policy principles for applying Sharia.[17] Egyptian law did not include Sharia principles from 1955 until the 1970s, but since the assassination of Sadat in 1981, calls for the implementation of Sharia principles are steadily gaining legitimacy.[18] Sadat's downfall and the Islamicization process of Egypt's laws primarily came from Sadat's aggressive Western policies and peace accords with Israel.

Basically, this means the middle east is going backwards in time, erasing the progress of decades and centuries.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 66):
7% ? Less than 10% even.

Assuming 1.6 million Muslims in Britain alone, that means 116,000 potential raving lunatics living in their midst.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 66):
fairly high, but less than 15% still --- and an open question about what "insulting Islam" is

Recent history has shown that insulting Islam is just about the easiest thing in the world. Just draw a cartoon and watch the fireworks.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 69):
Still that was Ottoman empire against Vienna.Ottoman empire did invade other Muslim country's,and there expansion did have nothing to do with expanding Islam to Europe

That was their founding principle - to extend the reach of Islam, although they were surprisingly lenient on non-muslim inhabitants. But non-muslims still had to pay the jizya tax, making their taxes higher than for Muslims. They often had to wear distinctive clothing or cut their hair in a particular way to signal their non-muslim status (yellow stars, anyone?). In times of war (pretty much constant in those days), the children of Non-Muslims were forceably taken from their parents and put on the front lines as slave-troops. They were known as Jannisaries. (for you history buffs, later on in the history of the Ottoman Empire, Jannisaries were not slaves, but mercenaries.)
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:35 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 70):
evidence for that? If anything I would think that secret voting would make the results far worse.

-
I have seen some "polling" in the U.K. on TV. And could see that the loudest ones gave the tune, and the others simply "agreed" with them and some even walked away.
-
-

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 70):
their constitutions state that the founding basis of the law is Sharia.

the Egyptian constitution states that its laws are in agreement with the ideals of Islam, but "Sharia" law is NOT mentioned, and it is civil law. In Libya, women have considerable rights and have NOT to wear scarves or veils, and the personal guard of Khaddafi are women

-

-

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 70):
Basically, this means the middle east is going backwards in time, erasing the progress of decades and centuries.

the wave of fundamentalism of recent decades indeed has lead to steps back. Life in most Arab countries in the 1970ies was more liberal than now. The percentage of scarved women has virtually exploded in the 1980ies and into the 1990ies, but is now very slowly receding. You mention Sadat and Islam. In reality, the "turning point" in Egypt came when the Secularist President Nasser in 1970 died and was replaced by the very religious President Sadat.
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Interesting is to see how it is with the consumption of alcoholic beverages :
Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia : allowed
Libya : prohibited
Egypt : allowed (touristic zones only, but most of Egypt is touristic zones)
Lebanon, Syria, Jordan : allowed
Kuwait, Saudi Arabia : prohibited
Bahrain, Qatar, UAE (except Sharjah), Oman : allowed
Sharjah : prohibited
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in most of the UAE it is allowed in "traffic zones" like airports and special compounds plus in the hotel-compounds, which is the reason why restaurants in recent years gradually migrated into such compounds
-
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:42 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 70):
7% ? Less than 10% even.

Assuming 1.6 million Muslims in Britain alone, that means 116,000 potential raving lunatics living in their midst.

unfortunately YES ! while even a dozen can cause serious trouble ! it means that "recruiters" from extreme organisations have it relatively easy.
-

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 70):
Recent history has shown that insulting Islam is just about the easiest thing in the world. Just draw a cartoon and watch the fireworks.

-
I admit that this consideration is a bit on the semantic and theoretical side. Nevertheless: in many cases you have in mind, Islam was not insulted, but a certain number of Muslims FELT insulted. And as most Muslim countries were colonies and protectorates not so long ago, many people suffer from a deep-sitting inferiority complex and often are rather "jumpy" about matters of low relevance.
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:53 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 70):
That was their founding principle - to extend the reach of Islam, although they were surprisingly lenient on non-muslim inhabitants.

-
NO, it was not. The Turks originally were Christians of churches in what now is the Caucasian region, but went to Baghdad as soldiers for the Abbassid Kaliph. They finally toppled the Abbassids and took over the Kaliphate. The Osman Empire was founded by Sultan Osman I in Bursa in approx 1270 AD. He took over the Kalif title right then. But the idea of them was to further Turkish rule. Islam for most of the Osman (Ottoman/Ottomane) Sultans was clearly second-rate. They never were very busy in turning the populations of the provinces into Muslims. Interesting is that the imperial administration, particularily in the provinces, was dominated by Christian-Orthodox Greeks .
 
cfalk
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:21 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 71):
Quoting Cfalk (Reply 70):
evidence for that? If anything I would think that secret voting would make the results far worse.

-
I have seen some "polling" in the U.K. on TV. And could see that the loudest ones gave the tune, and the others simply "agreed" with them and some even walked away.

If you look at the link, you'll see that the polling was done by phone.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:41 pm

Congratulations to the Danish Press. FAZ in Germany has printed today facsimile of the Danish newspapers showing the caricature as well. Good, excellent.

The freedom of the press is important and the individual freedom stands above anything, certainly above religion.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:52 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 74):
If you look at the link, you'll see that the polling was done by phone.

even far far far worse ! With sensible people hanging up. Phone polls are widely detested. And many people giving angry or wrong answers in the hope to annoy the caller. No, sorry, a political phone-poll is rubbish.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:58 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 75):
FAZ in Germany

Here from their WEBsite
-

-
 
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yowza
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:00 am

Why exacerbate the situation? This is pointless.

YOWza
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:44 am



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 69):
Thank you for the history lesson.Shows that i was not a great student.
Still that was Ottoman empire against Vienna.Ottoman empire did invade other Muslim country's,and there expansion did have nothing to do with expanding Islam to Europe.A lot of Muslim country's rebelled against them.

No. It was the Ottoman Empire vs. that of Europe. The Battle of Vienna was fought by the Polish who were asked to come by the Pope since no one else could because they were weakend by wars. This is less relevant by the fact that Poland ruled from the Baltic to the Black Sea and we border the Ottomans and other muslims for a good number of years.
It was definately the spread of Islam and infact they chopped heads off and speared everyone who would not convert right away, I dont really care under what name it was so if thats not hostile religious expansion I dont know what is.
 
bravo45
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:54 pm

So, some extreme BS wake me up from my month long a.net hybernation.

STFU about freedom of speech argument. I have started many threads proving otherwise which not surprisingly got very few replies. What happened to the cartoons banned by the Spanish Govt?

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...y/0,21985,22113034-5005961,00.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6909047.stm

Is Irving free yet?? Looks like some bigots get a pass, freedom of speech my ____!!! Freedom of selective bigotry, maybe, or worse.

I for one hope it doesn't materialize, but knowing the kind of wave of hatred going around in the western world, should it happen, I hope the Muslim govts sit on their butts and the people turn their anger on their own dictators instead of burning embassies. A few corrupt governments falling could be a something good that can come out of this impending BS.
On the other hand the in the worst case, the fledgling Al Qaeda both in popularity and in power can jump to Denmark to regain some of both.
 
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Asturias
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:58 pm

I appreciate the difference between one judge being a backwards thinking person and millions and millions of people.

It isn't even a nuance.

saludos

Asturias
 
bravo45
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:02 pm



Quoting Asturias (Reply 91):

Is that in response to my post?
 
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Asturias
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:14 pm



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 92):
Is that in response to my post?

Yes, it was. The way I see it one judge does not represent anything in particular. Millions and millions of people who express their outcry against free press - not even in their own country - are a whole other enchilada.

saludos

Asturias
 
windshear
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:57 pm



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 90):
Is Irving free yet??

Should the above be taken seriously?

Boaz.
 
bravo45
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:19 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 93):
Yes, it was. The way I see it one judge does not represent anything in particular.
Thanks, didn't want to comment without making sure. I agree, and isn't it about individuals? This individual who produced the cartoon people are lining behind or the individual judge who banned them. Even though he didn't have people lining behind him, his position of authority made it what it was.
My point is that you can't invoke freedom of speech selectively. That holds true for those who acknowledge that the cartoons were in bad taste but support them / present them as the symbol of freedom of speech in Europe. I don't agree with the cartoons or the judge or Irving. I merely present them as evidence that the 'freedom of expression' claim is pure BS. Its all about whats in fashion. And at this time... its all good if its against/offensive to Islam.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 94):

Just as seriously as the cartoons (and I mean it, just like cartoons are not hurting anyone physically, so isnt Irving's material. But I understand its personal to you, well then know that the cartoons are more personal to a lot more people). Now I have never held the Danes or even the Danish government accountable for the cartoons and have often said that out loud. Neither am I lining up behind Irving. I am merely pointing out how others line up behind bigots like Irving (his old stuff that I read was a stark contrast to his recent ones especially later interviews, mind you he was a very accomplished historian until he started down the wrong track, but that's another topic), and these cartoonists and how it is the support behind them that is the gauge often used to measure if their actions are correct. I'd rather hold to a constant standard, a rule to measure if that is true. And when freedom of speech is mentioned, the evidence just shreds that claim. So I'll have none of it.

P.S Long time no crossing of each other's path Windshear. Hope you are fine and changed just a little. ?

Edited to add:

And see what happened: When discussing the cartoons how many were talking about the content? The topic was all about the ability to be able to do it. And as soon as some contrary evidence is presented against the freedom of speech BS, suddenly we are talking not about the ability to do it, but the disgust of what is not allowed. Thankfully Turkey has lifted the headscarf ban. France still has it, hell in Turkey you can't mention Armenian Genocide, in France you can't deny the Armenian Genocide, and all this is addition to the other bans. Its pretty audacious to even bring up freedom of speech in this situation, really.

[Edited 2008-02-15 12:43:20]
 
EvilForce
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:11 am



Quoting Lobster (Reply 3):
I say go for it. Too hell what some of the Muslims think. They need to learn the word "tolerance"

Agreed. All religions should be made fun of. Regularly or daily if possible. Christians need to be made fun of. Muslims. Buddhists. Atheists. Mormons. Scientologists. All of em.

Freedom of speech, and the press is a wonderful thing. Hate speech obviously shouldn't be published. But it's one thing to actively call for people to attack, maim, or discriminate against a group of people vs. publishing a cartoon mocking Mohammad, displaying a "Christ In Piss" sculpture, or satirizing the Jewish faith.
 
windshear
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:17 pm

The editor Flemming Rose from Jyllands Posten, wrote a chronicle in the wall street journal (February 15., 2008) about this attempted murder of one of the artists who drew Mohammad:

Direct to wall street journal, needs log-in

From other source: From a Danish website
(Abstract)

Quote:
by Flemming Rose

At a lunch last year celebrating his 25th anniversary with Jyllands-Posten, Kurt Westergaard told an anecdote. During World War II Pablo Picasso met a German officer in southern France, and they got into a conversation. When the German officer figured out whom he was talking to he said:

"Oh, you are the one who created Guernica?" referring to the famous painting of the German bombing of a Basque townby that name in 1937.

Picasso paused for a second, and replied, "No, it wasn't me, it was you."

Mark Steyn from the NRO blog writes: "he Danes have now taken an important stand against Islamic encroachments on freedom of expression."

direct link
(Abstract)

Quote:
Following the arrests of three Muslims for plotting to kill Kurt Westergaard, the cartoonist who drew Mohammad wearing a bomb turban, the Danish media have today republished the offending illustration.

Good for them. The minute it became clear that violence and intimidation were the response the western press should have said: Okay, you want to kill one of us, you'll have to kill us all. The Danes have now taken an important stand against Islamic encroachments on freedom of expression.

In my view Mark gets it, very good analysis on his behalf.

Boaz.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:40 pm



Quoting Asturias (Reply 118):
Quoting Cfalk (Reply 120):
Here is an interesting article about the subject. It is written by an ex-muslim (an apostate, who faces death also for his opinions).


Very interesting article.. I particularily liked the following paragraph

"The western societies seem to have an inherent serious problem that makes the westerners turn against their own history, heritage, culture and all their past achievements. They happily declare their cultural surrender as they see everything coming from the outside as genuine and honest, and look down at their own as false and corrupt. They are so consumed with post imperial guilt that they are blinded to their countries’ virtues."

His message is not much different from this guy's: http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,440340,00.html- What's remarkable is that it's once again a guy "from the other side" with in-depth knowledge of what Islam is all about telling us how stupid and shortsighted we are and we still don't believe him. This interview has been posted here on a.net some time ago:

SPIEGEL: Many Germans believe that communities should live together peacefully without any parallel societies. Is it therefore right to compromise in order to avoid antagonizing Muslims unnecessarily?

Tibi: Quite the opposite. The Islamic officials who live here are very intelligent and view this as weakness. Muslims stand by their religion entirely. It is a sort of religious absolutism. While Europeans have stopped defending the values of their civilization. They confuse tolerance with relativism.


SPIEGEL: Can the Islam conference which the German minister of domestic affairs, Wolfgang Schäuble, organized in Berlin last week, help in this regard?

Tibi: No, because the biggest taboo is that there even is a conflict at all. Everyone denies that. Instead people talk about misunderstandings and how these should be resolved. But a conflict of values is not a misunderstanding. Islamic orthodoxy and the German constitution are not compatible. And that is why the Islam conference failed.
...

Tibi: Pluralism and tolerance are pillars of modern society. That has to be accepted. But pluralism doesn't just mean diversity. It means that we share the same rules and values, and are still nevertheless different. Islam doesn't have this idea. And Islam also has no tradition of tolerance. In Islam tolerance means that Christians and Jews are allowed to live under the protection of Muslims but never as citizens with the same rights. What Muslims call tolerance is nothing other than discrimination.
 
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Asturias
Posts: 1977
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:35 pm

(this is a repost after some housekeeping)

http://www.islam-watch.org/MuminSalih/Islam-west-will-lose.htm

Very interesting article.. I particularily liked the following paragraph

"The western societies seem to have an inherent serious problem that makes the westerners turn against their own history, heritage, culture and all their past achievements. They happily declare their cultural surrender as they see everything coming from the outside as genuine and honest, and look down at their own as false and corrupt. They are so consumed with post imperial guilt that they are blinded to their countries’ virtues."

The rest was very interesting as well.

saludos

Asturias
 
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SOBHI51
Posts: 3950
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:52 pm

Well after cleanup
I am calling for a dialog.Relation between religions should not be ruled by neither terrosist activities nor insults.One can hurt the body the other will hurt the soul.To win the war against terrorism you should first win the war against ignorence.To win the war you should win the hearts you do that by building schools,roads,hospitals,runnig water,electricity,TV ETC...
The main source of terrotists are poor people.Get to those before the other side and you will win that war.Few cartoons for me were nothing,found them stupid in a matter of fact.I am educated.Not so for others and when a terrorist recruiter will tell them look they are insulting your religion,your god,your prophet he is actually aiming to the heart and not the brain.
Peace.

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