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Kunoichi
Topic Author
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Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:01 pm

Just heard on the news that three major Danish newspapers - among others, Jyllands Posten, who previously printed the much discussed drawings of the Islamic profet, Mohammad - are going to reprint one of the drawings from 2006's conflict.

According to the Danish Ministry of International Affairs, they're quite worried about this - and I certainly understand that. Knowing how much trouble these drawings caused last time, it's like these people are asking for a terrorist attack. On the other hand, I understand why people want to stand up and think it's ridiculous that drawings can make people get violent... but is this really the right way to go?

What are your views on this?

I'll keep on the look-out for more news on this and post when I know more. But I think we're heading into another crisis and these newspapers are tempting fate.  Sad
 
jfk69
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:04 pm

Print it!!! Post it!!!!! do whatever we have to. We can't let the extremism scare us out of our daily lives. It is starting to get ridiculous out there and I am happy a national paper is actually going to stand up and not bow to pressure.
 
Kunoichi
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:10 pm



Quoting JFK69 (Reply 1):
Print it!!! Post it!!!!! do whatever we have to. We can't let the extremism scare us out of our daily lives. It is starting to get ridiculous out there and I am happy a national paper is actually going to stand up and not bow to pressure.

I understand this viewpoint quite well too - but matter of fact is we're NOT bowing down if we don't post them either - we already fought this battle once, why fight it again? I could understand it if extremists were provoking the newspapers or trying to make the newspapers "bow down", but this is done without any kind of provocation whatsoever.

I - as a dane - am worried about this. I know people are going to say that "by being scared you're just giving the terrorists what they want", but from the threats we received in 2006, I'm pretty sure that people will be killed and chaos will break out - and is it really worth that much just to prove us right a second time when we have already been proven right once?
 
lobster
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:22 pm

I say go for it. Too hell what some of the Muslims think. They need to learn the word "tolerance"
 
NoUFO
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:27 pm

They should rather print new caricatures, the last ones were pretty lame. Except for the "Sorry, we ran out of virgins" drawing.

Quoting Kunoichi (Reply 2):
we're NOT bowing down if we don't post them either - we already fought this battle once, why fight it again?

If the editors have the feeling that a caricature would fit a given situation well, they should print one.
 
Pyrex
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:29 pm



Quoting Kunoichi (Reply 2):
but this is done without any kind of provocation whatsoever.

You mean apart from the assassination plot against one of the original cartoonists just uncovered?
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:35 pm

I'm all for restricted freedom of speech but maybe those Danish newspapers could consider the price of their ego (come on, ego is part of it) and need to prove a point may not outweigh the undoubted negative effects that will come, no matter how irrational some may view those people in whom the negative effects manifest.

Sorry for the long sentence.
 
Banco
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:37 pm



Quoting Kunoichi (Reply 2):
I could understand it if extremists were provoking the newspapers or trying to make the newspapers "bow down", but this is done without any kind of provocation whatsoever.

Are you sure about that?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7240481.stm

This is a story from today, by the way.
 
csavel
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:37 pm



Quoting Kunoichi (Reply 2):
nd is it really worth that much just to prove us right a second time when we have already been proven right once?

Well it is difficult for me to say as I am not Danish, but generally I think if you are intimidated once, you've already shown the intimidators that you can be intimidated. You cannot appease people who will silence you via a gun or a bomb or violence. So yeah, it is worth it.

They can protest, they can boycott all Danish cheeses, C++ , SAS, Lars von Trier films etc., to their hearts content.

They cannot burn down embassies, threaten cartoonists with death or anything like that. That is when they need to be met with as much force as they show.

We should show solidarity with Denmark.
 
slider
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:44 pm



Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 6):
I know a lesbian couple who are offended by a stuffed toy I call Muffin the Mule, but since I renamed it Mohammad the Mule, they're fine with it

LMAO!

Quoting Csavel (Reply 9):
We should show solidarity with Denmark.

I stand with them as well. Enough kow-towing to the PC gods of tolerance. Tolerance is what is killing people--tolerating aberrant criminality under the name of religion.
 
aloges
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:54 pm



Quoting Kunoichi (Thread starter):
What are your views on this?

So they want to re-print a few poorly-made cartoons to provoke a couple hundred million people... go right ahead!  sarcastic 

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 4):
They should rather print new caricatures, the last ones were pretty lame.

 checkmark  If any of those had been as funny as e.g. the Buddy Christ, it would be a different story, but provoking anyone just for the hell of it is a bad idea and has started many a vicious circle. Still, the worst part is that some people will lump all of us "infidels"  sarcastic  together with these wannabe agents provocateurs.

Too many bigoted idiots in this world... it's like a kindergarten fight,
"Waaah waaah freedom of press, we can do anything and we're not responsible!"
vs. "Waaah waaah my honour, we must kill all of you bloody infidels!"
then "It's only their fault, they started it!"
and then "No you did, you've never respected us!"
Seriously, stick them in a bag, hit it hard and you're never going to hurt the wrong person.
 
Banco
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:00 pm



Quoting Aloges (Reply 11):
but provoking anyone just for the hell of it is a bad idea and has started many a vicious circle.

I know what you're saying, but really! We're talking about some cartoons here. Being provoked by that is just pathetic. Responding with violence is truly pathetic. I'm all for being aware of others sensitivities, but I see no reason whatsoever to bow to intimidation.
 
aloges
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:20 pm



Quoting Banco (Reply 12):
We're talking about some cartoons here.

Surely we are, we are talking about the exact same cartoons that no one found funny in the first place and that are proven to start violent protests in instable regions of the globe. That's my beef, everyone knows they're dangerous - why rub salt into the wounds?

Quoting Banco (Reply 12):
Being provoked by that is just pathetic.

 checkmark  It is, of course, but re-printing those cartoons as provocation under the veil of "freedom of the press" is pathetic, too.

Quoting Banco (Reply 12):
Responding with violence is truly pathetic.

again,  checkmark  That's part of what I meant with "too many bigoted idiots in this world". To use even more colourful terms, anything to exacerbate this FUBAR mess is sheer lunacy in my mind.

Quoting Banco (Reply 12):
I see no reason whatsoever to bow to intimidation.

Neither do I, as much as I see no reason to prod a stick in the side of an unpredictable irate tiger. It's just so incredibly stupid.
 
Banco
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:30 pm



Quoting Aloges (Reply 13):
Neither do I, as much as I see no reason to prod a stick in the side of an unpredictable irate tiger. It's just so incredibly stupid.

Well, you're right of course, and I don't think we disagree on anything here. Deliberately going out of your way to offend isn't particularly pleasant or wise - it's just that I think that anyone truly, violently offended by this is the one with the problem, not the rather humourless cartoons in the first place.

As to whether re-printing is justified, it is in the sense of making the point that responding with aggression to try to put down freedom of speech is SO unacceptable, that it must be proved again and again until those who would wish to deny us our basic rights, will not win and will not force us into retreat.

How can I put this? That not deliberately saying something that might give offence can only be part of the deal provided those who would be offended accept the right to actually say it!
 
bok269
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:15 am

Bottom line-the cartoons were insulting and sacreligious to a large portion of the world's population. Equating that population with terrorists is ignorant. You aren't proving anything to the terrorists by reprinting that cartoon.

Most terrorists are Muslim. A small portion of Muslims are terrorists.
 
cfalk
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:42 am



Quoting Kunoichi (Reply 2):
I understand this viewpoint quite well too - but matter of fact is we're NOT bowing down if we don't post them either - we already fought this battle once, why fight it again? I could understand it if extremists were provoking the newspapers or trying to make the newspapers "bow down", but this is done without any kind of provocation whatsoever.

Not true. Those cartoonists are under permenant threat from Islamists who can't learn to take a joke. This is from only today.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23203585-23109,00.html

Quote:
Arrests over cartoonist kill plot
From correspondents in Copenhagen
February 12, 2008 07:45pm
Article from: ReutersFont size: + -
Send this article: Print Email
SEVERAL people were arrested in Denmark today in connection with a plot to murder one of the 12 cartoonists whose drawings of the Prophet Mohammad caused worldwide uproar in 2006, Danish media said.

According to Jyllands-Posten, the newspaper that originally published the cartoons in September 2005, the suspects are accused of planning to kill 73-year-old Kurt Westergaard.

He drew the cartoon that caused the most controversy, depicting Mohammad with a bomb in his turban.

Can you imagine if they made a 'Life of Brian' around Mohammed?
 
Jamie757
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:53 am



Quoting Kunoichi (Thread starter):

Something tells me that when it is republished, the Danish Embassy staff will have a few days at home!

 Wink

Rgds.
 
aloges
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:11 am



Quoting Banco (Reply 14):
That not deliberately saying something that might give offence can only be part of the deal provided those who would be offended accept the right to actually say it!

That's a yes from me, especially concerning "the big picture". It wasn't the Danish who showed those cartoons to be dangerous.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 16):
Islamists who can't learn to take a joke

Do you really think it's about "taking a joke"? Nothing about the abuse of religion to gain influence and a followers? Nothing about overstating "the infidels' " intentions to drive segregation and hatred?
 
L-188
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:25 am



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 4):
Except for the "Sorry, we ran out of virgins" drawing.

You know, somewhere Muhammed and L. Ron Hubbard are laughing it up

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 6):
I know a lesbian couple who are offended by a stuffed toy I call Muffin the Mule, but since I renamed it Mohammad the Mule, they're fine with it

HA!

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 16):
Can you imagine if they made a 'Life of Brian' around Mohammed?

Oh man, could you imagine what they could do that that?
 
surfpunk
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:26 am



Quoting Aloges (Reply 13):
Surely we are, we are talking about the exact same cartoons that no one found funny in the first place and that are proven to start violent protests in instable regions of the globe. That's my beef, everyone knows they're dangerous - why rub salt into the wounds?

This guy definitely knows how to rub salt in wounds

Personally, I agree with his sentiment that problems arising from freedom of speech should be answered with more freedom of speech, not less.
 
KL773ER
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:34 am

And how many television movies/comedy shows (especially in America-e.g., "South Park") that make fun of Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc? If the anti-democracy are entitled to spout anti-American, Israel, etc. (pick your democratic country) as a part of their "free speech" .... then I say print it and be proud.

Go Denmark!
-KL
 
aloges
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:38 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 19):
You know, somewhere Muhammed and L. Ron Hubbard are laughing it up

probably enjoying some good wine and dope while they're at it - If there's one thing the actually religious folk know really well, it is to live well.

Quoting Surfpunk (Reply 20):
This guy definitely knows how to rub salt in wounds

It's odd how he contradicts himself:

Quote:
Thus I decided to make the most offensive image possible, a pig with the word “Allah” on it.

(...) What the Muslim world thinks, and which your email clearly shows, is that (...) everyone’s speech should be curtailed so as not to offend your delicate Muslim sensibilities.

So being offended by "the most offensive image possible" is a sign of "delicate sensibilities"? Not to mention his sweeping generalisation of "the Muslim world" and so on, I too wouldn't like it if I were lumped together with e.g. Fred Phelps just because I also happen to call myself some sort of Christian.

Quoting Surfpunk (Reply 20):
I agree with his sentiment that problems arising from freedom of speech should be answered with more freedom of speech, not less.

Freedom of speech doesn't equal freedom of the press. If I said "Person A is a [insert insult of choice here]!" it would be my thing, if I owned a paper and made the same thing a headline I'd violate rules and laws. Journalism and publishing carry a lot more responsibility and liability with them than personal expression. That should of course not impede controversy, but only its excesses.

[Edited 2008-02-12 18:45:40]
 
jfk69
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:45 am



Quoting Surfpunk (Reply 20):

Personally, I agree with his sentiment that problems arising from freedom of speech should be answered with more freedom of speech, not less.

Its funny you post that. I remember reading some years back when the suicide bombers were striking hard in Israel, that the Israeli gov't was thinking about giving the bodies of the bombers back to the Palestinians wrapped in pig. This would be to deter future attacks by showing that you may think you are going to allah and your 72 but it will be a desecrated body.
 
Kunoichi
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:28 am

I am aware that the cartoonists are being threatened - and they have been since 2006, so this is not a new situation as such. I don't consider this a provocation to reprint the drawings, however (wouldn't that make it all worse?).

I'm all for freedom of speech - but since the last incident is apparently so much of an issue, why not just concentrate on fixing that instead of ripping up old wounds and making everyone p*ssed all over again.

And fact is: People WILL start to burn embassies. People WILL try to kill those responsible - and those who aren't (heck, just being Danish can get you in trouble). Denmark might very well get targeted by terrorists. People will die because some newspapers figured "hey! it might be funny to print these drawings again!", knowing very well that quite a few psychotic extremists will go out and kill innocent people over it.

No, those psychotic extremists have no right to do so because of some stupid drawings, and yes, freedom of speech shouldn't be restricted, but fact is still that we know how this is going to end up - and it's not going to be pretty.

And with that in mind - isn't there some other way to practice freedom of speech that won't get people hurt or killed?

I will live on as usual like most other people whether they print the drawings or not - but I still think it's unneccessary and a product of some newspapers' selfish stubbornness, and when someone's son, daughter, mother, father or husband is killed because of this, I doubt the family will be thinking "oh, heck, at least he/she died for a good course!", when they know it could've been prevented if the newspapers just didn't post the bloody drawings.

What exactly is this going to prove? That we don't care what other people think? That extremists are wrong?
I doubt they'll get it this time around. There will ALWAYS be extremists and terrorists, and though I understand why we shouldn't live in fear, I don't think it's a good idea to literally provoke them to attack our country.
 
surfpunk
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:28 am



Quoting Aloges (Reply 22):
So being offended by "the most offensive image possible" is a sign of "delicate sensibilities"?

Funny that you leave the following part of that quote out:

Quote:
What the Muslim world is going to have to learn, if it ever hopes to drag itself into the modern world, is the concept of free speech. There is a saying in the west, often incorrectly attributed to the French philosopher Voltaire, which states “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”

The "delicate sensibilities" relates to many (not all, or even a majority, of course) Muslims' propensity to call for censorship of anything they deem offensive, and to riot in the streets if they don't get their way.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 22):
I too wouldn't like it if I were lumped together with e.g. Fred Phelps just because I also happen to call myself some sort of Christian.

Phelps is a tool who will get his in the end. You'll notice, as well, that you tend to not see Christians rioting en masse because somebody created something equally offensive, like the Piss Christ.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 22):
Freedom of speech doesn't equal freedom of the press. If I said "Person A is a [insert insult of choice here]!" it would be my thing, if I owned a paper and made the same thing a headline I'd violate rules and laws. Journalism and publishing carry a lot more responsibility and liability with them than personal expression. That should of course not impede controversy, but only its excesses.

Well, the "allah pig" is not on a news site, but someone's personal blog, which is well and truly covered under our Free Speech protections. Also, you'd be hard pressed to get a successful prosecution for libel against a prophet from the 7th Century. Journalism also carries First Amendment protections, in this country.
 
cfalk
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:23 am



Quoting Aloges (Reply 18):
Do you really think it's about "taking a joke"? Nothing about the abuse of religion to gain influence and a followers? Nothing about overstating "the infidels' " intentions to drive segregation and hatred?

We've been saying that for years, and nobody listens, because PC rules say that you cannot critisize people's religious beliefs.

Quoting Kunoichi (Reply 24):
I am aware that the cartoonists are being threatened - and they have been since 2006, so this is not a new situation as such. I don't consider this a provocation to reprint the drawings, however (wouldn't that make it all worse?).



Quoting Kunoichi (Reply 24):
Denmark might very well get targeted by terrorists.

I hate to break it to you, but they have already declared war on you. The only question is, will you rise to the challenge or try to hide in your shell. And remember, the shell is only a temporary protection.

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 23):
I remember reading some years back when the suicide bombers were striking hard in Israel, that the Israeli gov't was thinking about giving the bodies of the bombers back to the Palestinians wrapped in pig. This would be to deter future attacks by showing that you may think you are going to allah and your 72 but it will be a desecrated body.

I've been advocating that for years. Use their religious beliefs against them. They use theirs against us, so its only fair.
 
babybus
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:53 am

Well just to show they are not being just anti-muslim why don't they put some outragious and insulting jewish cartoons in there too! That would balance it out and give us christians a laugh.  Big grin
 
Kunoichi
Topic Author
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:02 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 26):
I hate to break it to you, but they have already declared war on you. The only question is, will you rise to the challenge or try to hide in your shell. And remember, the shell is only a temporary protection.

So rising to the challenge means printing some drawings that we KNOW will get people killed because some dirtbags get offended by them?

They may have declared war on us, but at least, the situation was somewhat under control. The 2006 incident is STILL fresh, and they're going to print the drawings again just because they can, even though they know extremists will be attacking people who have nothing to do with the drawings? Now that they're going to p*ss the extremists off even more, full well KNOWING that innocent people got killed last time they did the exact same thing, it'll just make everything even worse.

Seriously - by printing these and sustaining terrorists attacks, what are we going to achieve? That the extremists wake up and go "hey, we were all wrong about this! We're so sorry!" Not likely. They'll keep doing what they've always been doing. If they're so obsessed with fighting this war, they can dang well get down there and fight the extremists instead of bringing them up here to attack people who have nothing to do with it!

There'll ALWAYS be extremists who'll get p*ssed off by something. There'll ALWAYS be terrorists. And they won't change their minds no matter what we do. But doing the same thing twice serves no purpose and wins no wars.

It's like sticking your head into an angry lion's mouth, just to prove that you CAN. People won't be surprised if you get your head bitten off either... but at least, you won't be hurting other people by doing it like these newspapers might very well be doing.
 
AR385
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:25 am

From what I read, the Qoran expressly prohibits portraying Muhammed in images. There is nothing of the sort in the Bible.

The original cartoons gave rise to people protesting in the millions. I am sure not all of them were extremists. Printing something that offended millions a second time is just silly, in my eyes. I do not believe that it is an issue of freedom of the press anymore.

You find them extremists in all faiths. The movie "The Last Temptation of Christ" was never shown in Mexico. A few years ago Mormons were forbidden to build their temple in my hometown.

Sad state of affairs, really.
 
LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:56 am



Quoting Kunoichi (Reply 28):
It's like sticking your head into an angry lion's mouth, just to prove that you CAN. People won't be surprised if you get your head bitten off either... but at least, you won't be hurting other people by doing it like these newspapers might very well be doing.

Last time the Polaks stuck their head into the angry Muslim mouth we beat them sensless and gave them a taste of what its like to come knocking when youre not wanted. I am positive almost everyone would do the same now as back then if there was a true merit and danger to weed out this ideological crap.

The problem isnt posting these kinds of pictures for Denmark, the problem is in Western Europe that you lot are afraid of Muslim provocation and retaliation which reflects in people being scared and governments giving in something that I dont see even in the USA. We were previously discussing sharia law in the UK and now there is acceptance of polygamous marriages in the UK if done outside of the country in previous threads. From where I come from you dont screw around with people like this, you either shut them up by force or you deport them all. The end result is no terrorist attacks, I have more compassion for Soviet and German armed forces than these idiot Islamic laws and practices and any country that supports it.
 
Impacto
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:45 am



Quoting Kunoichi (Thread starter):

I find myself leaning towards the idea that the cartoons that appeared in the paper are unjustifiable. We must accept that we live in an era with high tensions between the east and the west. It seems foolish to antagonise this situation further, merely to use free speech.

Freedom of speech ought not to be used to cause distress to other people. Reprinting these images will do more harm to the already fragile integration amongst Denmark's immigrant population.

Though there are good points on either side of the debate, surely a human understanding of world affairs as they are at present ought to have given someone at Jyllands Post the sense to question the printing of this material.

I would also take issue with any irreverence shown towards other faiths, and believe that faith is something that should be debated with respect, and not flippantly. I fear that Denmark will have future problems as a result of this action, but hope that those offended by the material will seek to educate rather than seek revenge. Moderation and understanding is needed on both sides.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:09 am



Quoting Impacto (Reply 31):
Moderation and understanding is needed on both sides.

Well, that's the thing...

One of the sides is not moderated at all. And while those pictures might just accentuate that problem, they should also give to the huge majority of muslims in Europe who are indeed tolerant the opportunity to voice their disapproval of the extremist ideals entertained by some radical muslim groups.
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:15 am



Quoting Impacto (Reply 31):
I find myself leaning towards the idea that the cartoons that appeared in the paper are unjustifiable. We must accept that we live in an era with high tensions between the east and the west. It seems foolish to antagonise this situation further, merely to use free speech.

Freedom of speech ought not to be used to cause distress to other people. Reprinting these images will do more harm to the already fragile integration amongst Denmark's immigrant population.

Though there are good points on either side of the debate, surely a human understanding of world affairs as they are at present ought to have given someone at Jyllands Post the sense to question the printing of this material.

I cant disagree with you more on this whole post. If the East (Islam) does not like the West (Christianity) and the way we do business here then take your bag and leave and go back to wherever you came from.

Coming from a country stuck between 2 countries that historically have sized up their claws at us for the last 300 years and in an area of high tension where Western Idealogy (and to a lesser extent Catholicism) meets Eastern European Orthodox and way of life the last thing I would want to do is give up something I want to do to appease a certain group. I dont need to prove to anyone on here that we have had a history of fighting for our freedom and doing whatever the hell we please without anyone disrupting or controlling our lives, and with that I will say that I would fight for it again today if there is merit and true cause. If this time Muslims are the cause of this merit and calling then its time to fight them, if they can play by the rules and there is no merit and calling then we should live in peace with them.
 
Elite
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:16 am

They can and should be printed if the newspaper wants to. There has been plenty of cartoons depicting the East, or other people (just check out the political cartoons you find these days!). To not print them because you fear someone will be killed is giving into to extremism and terrorism, showing other people that threats of terrorist attacks work. The effect of giving into these terrorists will be worse than standing up to them.

Quoting Kunoichi (Reply 28):
Seriously - by printing these and sustaining terrorists attacks, what are we going to achieve? That the extremists wake up and go "hey, we were all wrong about this! We're so sorry!" Not likely.

No, but it sends them a message saying "we won't back down from your threats" so they won't think they can push us around using their threats. They can protest it or boycott it, but if they use violence or anything against the law they will be prosecuted.
 
777ER
Head Moderator
Posts: 10143
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 5:04 pm

RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:34 am



Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 6):
I know a lesbian couple who are offended by a stuffed toy I call Muffin the Mule, but since I renamed it Mohammad the Mule, they're fine with it

Thats a fine example of how some things are being changed to suit certain people. Now Christmas songs can't be played in schools cause it offends certain people, bah bah black sheep can't be played, cause it offends certain people. There are things that offend me, but I don't go out and cause problems.

I say go for it, print the cartoon
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:08 am



Quoting Surfpunk (Reply 25):
Funny that you leave the following part of that quote out:

I didn't, at least not entirely:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 22):
Not to mention his sweeping generalisation of "the Muslim world" and so on

The editor of that site isn't differentiating in that text. While I mostly agree with him as far as radicals are concerned, his sweeping condemnations of all Muslims can only do one thing to moderates: anger them.

Quoting Surfpunk (Reply 25):
Well, the "allah pig" is not on a news site, but someone's personal blog, which is well and truly covered under our Free Speech protections.

Precisely, and do you see anyone rioting and burning embassies over it?  Wink If a major newspaper published the image, things would likely be different.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 26):
We've been saying that for years, and nobody listens, because PC rules say that you cannot critisize people's religious beliefs.

I'd like to suggest that you differentiate between actual political correctness and its perversion. PC is, for example, avoiding discrimination in words and actions such as hiring only people of one race or calling people "Jewish pigs", "towelheads" or "infidels". The perversion is examplified by those who let minorities abuse this respect to discriminate against majorities.
 
LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:22 am

I just love the Danish embassy in Tehran website:

http://www.ambteheran.um.dk/da

The left column is the best one IMO.
 
CXfirst
Posts: 3022
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:23 am

Ahh.... I really wanted an Emirates flight to CPH

-CXfirst
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:39 am



Quoting CXfirst (Reply 39):
Ahh.... I really wanted an Emirates flight to CPH

-CXfirst

THIS is my fear as well. Let's just hope that things pass through better than last time.
 
Kay
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Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 3:41 pm

RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:44 am



Quoting JFK69 (Reply 1):
Print it!!! Post it!!!!! do whatever we have to. We can't let the extremism scare us out of our daily lives. It is starting to get ridiculous out there and I am happy a national paper is actually going to stand up and not bow to pressure.

Although it helps express the feelings the public opinion may have against Islam's views in that/these country(ies), isn't a higher level of responsibility commended? The problem with this is that nations in the arab world witnessed the burning of various danish embassies, causing people to loose jobs, and others to move/travel. How fun is that..

Kay
 
aloges
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:47 am



Quoting Kay (Reply 41):
The problem with this is that nations in the arab world witnessed the burning of various danish embassies

Which leads us to the question why nobody prevented that from happening, neither civilians nor the police. I for one cannot imagine the Danish police standing by as, say, the Iranian embassy is torched.
 
Impacto
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:24 pm



Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 35):
Thanks for missing the point completely... Right to offend is the core of the freedom of speech. Nobody is denying the Muslims the right to be offended (why someone in Pakistan gives a flying f*ck about marginal Danish newspaper is another issue), write petitions, hold protest rallies, even boycott Lego or whatever Danish product... that's perfectly fine and legitimate. Just don't burn down embassies, destroy people's property, issue death threats or plot to kill people because of a newspaper cartoon. That's simply unacceptable, uncivilised and barbaric.

Yeah, thanks a lot too for completely misinterpreting and feeding false words to my statement. You seem to have only partially read my post. You are making it look as though I approve violence as the solution. There are some key differences between freedom of speech and being offended. Criticism is a freedom of speech, which IMHO everyone has the right to and entitled to as well, because nothing in this world is immune to criticism. Criticisms should also be ALWAYS presented in a respectful and dignified manner. No sensible person will take offense at criticism of his/her beliefs and faith. Being offensive on the other hand is the complete opposite. If everyone believes in your ideology (Right to offend is the core of the freedom of speech), then its OK to be racist, be anti-Semite or even deny the holocaust. Heck, I can mention 1001 offensive positions I can take that will land me in jail, and the pretence of freedom of speech wouldn't save me.

Freedom of expression and freedom of the press are essential and important to just societies, and we should all support that.

HOWEVER, this issue is not *really* about freedom of press or freedom of expression. If that were the case, you would see cartoons ridiculing the holocaust, for example. So it appears that the paper was not really trying to see how far the freedom of speech can go, rather it was simply ploy to offend Muslims.

This is a right-wing paper in a country in which the party in power has an anti-immigrant platform. The cartoons were not about freedom of speech, rather, these depictions are hateful and meant to provoke and offend. Which they did.

Now should the paper have the right to publish what it wants? Sure. However, it should label it for what it is. If it is freedom of expression, then they would not tread so carefully on one issue, and so offfensively on the other.

If the Jewish people have succeeded (rightfully so) in having laws created that stop people from creating anti-semitic material or hate publications, why is it so wrong for the European Muslims to ask for the same treatment?

As for violent reactions, If you had read my post till the end, I stated that those who engage in such acts are usually the ignorant and uneducated. Let me give you an example. Amidst the publications of these cartoons, riots were taking place in Northern Nigeria, were the population is predominately Muslim. The area is under developed with a literacy rate of about 35%. These are areas where some of the most violent conflict took place over the drawing with hundreds killed and dozens of churches burnt down. Its the logical result of mixing religion with ignorance. The fact that only that region experienced the violence comes as no surprise as the Southern region was stable during that time as the majority of the literate population come from that region.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 33):
Coming from a country stuck between 2 countries that historically have sized up their claws at us for the last 300 years and in an area of high tension where Western Idealogy (and to a lesser extent Catholicism) meets Eastern European Orthodox and way of life the last thing I would want to do is give up something I want to do to appease a certain group. I dont need to prove to anyone on here that we have had a history of fighting for our freedom and doing whatever the hell we please without anyone disrupting or controlling our lives, and with that I will say that I would fight for it again today if there is merit and true cause. If this time Muslims are the cause of this merit and calling then its time to fight them, if they can play by the rules and there is no merit and calling then we should live in peace with them.

Its not about trying to take over a way of life here, its about a group of people that feel they've been offended and how they reacted to it.

IMO, the first publication may have been for an innocent cause, but a second publication might be somewhat provocative, knowing the consequence of the first one.
 
csavel
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:31 pm



Quoting Aloges (Reply 22):
If there's one thing the actually religious folk know really well, it is to live well.

ha, I always thought if I started my own religion or cult, I'd get more tail than I'd know what to do with.
 
LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2001 12:57 pm

RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:34 pm



Quoting Impacto (Reply 43):
Its not about trying to take over a way of life here, its about a group of people that feel they've been offended and how they reacted to it.

If you come to my country from a different country and culture and you are offended by my set of laws and my culture get the hell out of my country. Simple as that. No mercy for people like this no matter what religion or country they come from.
 
Kay
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:38 pm



Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 38):
I just love the Danish embassy in Tehran website:

http://www.ambteheran.um.dk/da

The left column is the best one IMO.

WOW!!  Wow! That's alot of declarations and statements!

Kay
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:05 pm



Quoting Aloges (Reply 42):
The problem with this is that nations in the arab world witnessed the burning of various danish embassies

Which leads us to the question why nobody prevented that from happening, neither civilians nor the police. I for one cannot imagine the Danish police standing by as, say, the Iranian embassy is torched.

Police AND firefighters tried to bring and DID bring the fires under control in each of the places in question. There were NOT standing by. And none of the embassies burnt down, but they (three or four) were badly damaged.
-
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:21 pm

Did i find the cartoons insulting,yes,tastless,yes,Stupid,yes.
Would i riot for that,no,kill the cartoonist,no,destroy properti,no.

But i still do not understand why they want to reprint,there is nothing to gain.You are giving some extrimist the ammunition for another riot,and some people will loose there life as before.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6327
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:43 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 46):
And none of the embassies burnt down, but they (three or four) were badly damaged.

Now, THAT is a major difference...  Yeah sure Splitting hairs as usual, MAF?
 
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Francoflier
Posts: 5917
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:46 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 47):
But i still do not understand why they want to reprint

There doesn't need to be a reason, just as there doesn't need to be death threats to someone for drawing a cartoon.
 
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SOBHI51
Posts: 3950
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:32 pm

RE: Danish Newspapers To Reprint Mohammad Drawings

Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:56 pm



Quoting Surfpunk (Reply 19):
This guy definitely knows how to rub salt in wounds

This guy is an idiot.Allah in Arabic is God.So he really was insulting all religions as they all believe in god.His remarks make me smile and not angry.Stupidity i don't take it seriousely.

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