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legoguy
Topic Author
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Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:39 am

Surprised no one has picked this up yet. Fingers crossed that not too many have been killed. So far reports say at least 17 are being treated for gunshot wounds. The gunman killed himself afterwards.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080214/ts_nm/usa_shooting_school1_dc_4

[Edited 2008-02-14 16:53:15]
 
davestanKSAN
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:47 am

Just saw this; sad sad news. I'm praying that those who were shot will recover  crossfingers   pray 

Dave
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:52 am

My uncle and his wife are both professors there. One of them was on campus at the time and was in lockdown, but they are both safe, thank God.




-NWA742
 
BCAInfoSys
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:56 am

CNN reporting that at least 4 students have been killed in addition to the gunman.
 
futureualpilot
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:25 am

Too bad the prick didn't just take himself out first and save everybody the hassle. Good riddance to him, and all the best to the victims and their loved ones.
 
atrude777
Posts: 4497
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:09 am

Update to 5 killed now per CNN.

I don't know anyone there but their Football coach just came from SIU here and as far as we know he is ok.

Alex
 
legoguy
Topic Author
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:26 am

Many reports now saying 6 dead, however they may be including the killer. My thoughts are with all relatives of those lost.
 
L-188
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:37 am

How could this happen in Chicago? I thought their draconianly strict gun control laws would have prevented this....

Oh wait...........


Doesn't make these guys look as nuts now eh?

Student Group Wants Guns on Campus
 
N174UA
Posts: 1010
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:13 am



Quoting L-188 (Reply 7):
How could this happen in Chicago?

NIU is in DeKalb, which is quite a ways northwest of Chicago. 85 miles I think.

RIP to those who died, all the best to those injured, good riddance to the loser who did it.
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:19 am



Quoting L-188 (Reply 7):
How could this happen in Chicago? I thought their draconianly strict gun control laws would have prevented this....

Tragically assholes will find a way of striking anything, anywhere - it's just all the more sickening when it's a school or college. You may remember the Dunblane massacre here in the UK many years ago, gun controls didn't stop that moron getting hold of a weapon and using it. But I'm not trying to stick up for firearms ownership here, so coming back to the point of this thread, I just hope that as many people as possible survive this sick attack, my thoughts are with them.


Dan Smile
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:29 am



Quoting N174UA (Reply 8):
NIU is in DeKalb, which is quite a ways northwest of Chicago. 85 miles I think.

Dekalb is just over 1 hr away from O'Hare - I should know, I drove it every time I had to go to work from adjacent Sycamore up Rt 23 to whatever it was that got me to the Elgin-O'Hare.

NIU is a nice place with plenty of room to grow. I don't know, though, how shocked I am. From campus and school shootings to Mayor Daley sending inner-city dwellers to other parts of the state (to get them out of Chicago), violence just isn't as surprising that way. Dekalb/Sycamore and the surrounding area is a nice place to live, though. I am sorry to hear about the people who died, although, from the bits I heard from the news on the screen here at work (about some idiot sending messages at NIU not long ago about VA Tech being nothing compared to what could happen), I'm glad it wasn't more.
 
SESGDL
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:48 am



Quoting L-188 (Reply 7):
Doesn't make these guys look as nuts now eh?

Oh I'm sure that's reasonable. If everyone and their mother owns a gun we can't possibly have mass shootings twice a week anymore.  Yeah sure Until this country continues to ignore the true issue, people are going to continue to die, these constant shootings are seen as a massive joke to many in the world where it's not a "right" for everyone to own a gun. It shouldn't even be a choice for many to own a gun in this country; I send condolences to all those families and victims who never had a choice whether or not they got to live or die.

Jeremy
 
WrenchBender
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:52 am



Quoting L-188 (Reply 7):
How could this happen in Chicago? I thought their draconianly strict gun control laws would have prevented this....

Oh wait...........


Doesn't make these guys look as nuts now eh?

Student Group Wants Guns on Campus



Quoting SESGDL (Reply 11):

Quoting L-188 (Reply 7):
Doesn't make these guys look as nuts now eh?

Oh I'm sure that's reasonable. If everyone and their mother owns a gun we can't possibly have mass shootings twice a week anymore. Until this country continues to ignore the true issue, people are going to continue to die, these constant shootings are seen as a massive joke to many in the world where it's not a "right" for everyone to own a gun. It shouldn't even be a choice for many to own a gun in this country; I send condolences to all those families and victims who never had a choice whether or not they got to live or die.

Jeremy

Take it somewhere else guys, there are enough Gun Control threads going without de-railing this one.

Thoughts for the victims.

WrenchBender
 
davestanKSAN
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:53 am

For fuck's sake, people, does this really have to turn into a gun debate?? Sigh....

Really bad news about those who died, I'm at a loss for words really. May they RIP, thoughts and prayers with their families and friends  pray 

Dave
 
SESGDL
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:19 am



Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 13):
For fuck's sake, people, does this really have to turn into a gun debate?? Sigh....

Yes. Why shouldn't it?

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 12):
Take it somewhere else guys, there are enough Gun Control threads going without de-railing this one.

Thoughts for the victims.

If this were a terrorist attack it would center on why the people did it and the means by which they did it. For some reason guns can't be discussed when large numbers of people are killed.  Yeah sure

Jeremy
 
WrenchBender
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Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 5:59 am

RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:23 am



Quoting SESGDL (Reply 14):
Yes. Why shouldn't it?

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 12):
Take it somewhere else guys, there are enough Gun Control threads going without de-railing this one.

Thoughts for the victims.

If this were a terrorist attack it would center on why the people did it and the means by which they did it. For some reason guns can't be discussed when large numbers of people are killed.

Jeremy

The thread YOU need to post in already exists
https://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/1805211/
starting at reply 90

WrenchBender
 
Derico
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:07 am



Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 13):
For fuck's sake, people, does this really have to turn into a gun debate?? Sigh....

I agree here, but it still amazes me that this now is a daily ocurrence and people in the US seem to just have 'given up'. I mean wasn't there another one yesterday in some high school and one the day before that?

That is not a normal state of affairs to have a shooting every day in some institution of learning, no matter how big or small the country is.
 
NWA742
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:15 am



Quoting Derico (Reply 16):
I agree here, but it still amazes me that this now is a daily ocurrence and people in the US seem to just have 'given up'.

 boggled 

Quoting Derico (Reply 16):
That is not a normal state of affairs to have a shooting every day in some institution of learning

It's not a daily occurrence, not by a long shot. But I do agree with you, it has gotten out of hand.




-NWA742
 
sunshine79
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:26 am

According to BBC News, this is the fourth shooting in the US this week in an education establishment. RIP to those innocent lives that have just been lost.
 
Zentraedi
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:13 am



Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 9):
NIU is in DeKalb, which is quite a ways northwest of Chicago. 85 miles I think.

No, about 60 miles west. You're probably thinking of the Rockford/Freeport area. You can get to the Loop in an hour and a half from my parents house in DeKalb.

Yeah, I live overseas and tell people I'm "from Chicago." But actually went to high school in DeKalb.

Anyway, the University is not the same profile as what you'd see at a place like Virginia Tech, but still I could see there being the mopey emo types that would pull this.
 
gkirk
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:24 am

Sad news to hear.

Although, unfortunately, it's not surprising news, but thats for another thread.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:40 am



Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 13):
For fuck's sake, people, does this really have to turn into a gun debate?? Sigh....

Given the nature of the incident, I don't really see how you can fully discuss it without the issue of gun control coming up.

If all you want to do is post "RIP, may God have mercy on them." type responses, then it's hardly a discussion is it?
 
BN747
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:54 am



Quoting Derico (Reply 16):

I agree here, but it still amazes me that this now is a daily ocurrence and people in the US seem to just have 'given up'. I mean wasn't there another one yesterday in some high school and one the day before that?



Quoting Sunshine79 (Reply 18):
According to BBC News, this is the fourth shooting in the US this week

Precisely, PLUS that 10, 11 year old kid who went and got his dad's shotgun and blasted his sister in the face over a bag of potato chips...this week.

Yeah, give everyone gun..that'll reduce the odds of anyone getting stupid-


BN747
 
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keesje
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:59 am

A sad day for all involved.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 11):
Until this country continues to ignore the true issue, people are going to continue to die, these constant shootings are seen as a massive joke to many in the world where it's not a "right" for everyone to own a gun.

 checkmark 

I have given up arguing about this. Folks just won't listen. I guess love (for guns) makes blind..
 
NWA742
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:01 am



Quoting BN747 (Reply 22):
Precisely, PLUS that 10, 11 year old kid who went and got his dad's shotgun and blasted his sister in the face over a bag of potato chips...this week.

Yeah, give everyone gun..that'll reduce the odds of anyone getting stupid-

Right......blame the object, not the human.

Blame religion for religious extremists.
Blame cigarettes for lung disease.
Blame spoons for making people fat.
Blame pencils for misspelled words.

Really smart.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 23):
I have given up arguing about this. Folks just won't listen. I guess love (for guns) makes blind

I'd rather be blind than stupid.



-NWA742
 
BN747
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:35 am



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 24):

Right......blame the object, not the human.

Blame religion for religious extremists.
Blame cigarettes for lung disease.
Blame spoons for making people fat.
Blame pencils for misspelled words.

Really smart.

The two are inextricably linked! What good is an airplane if no one touches it. What good is food if YOU can't eat?

The are inextricably linked-

The OBJECT is at the center of the issue. Without the inextricably linked idiot behind it.. the object is useless. Bottomline is the capacity of the human animal, and make no mistake - as I've said a million times here before..we are an animal species, have done, are doing....and will continue to do some very very stupid things! Should the ability to instantly take life -- human life -- with incredible ease.. be placed in the hands arbitrarily of such species? Perhaps, we should experiment by giving every chimp a gun and show them how to use it...

..nah, why ruin the existence of a 'inferior' and less lethal species.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 24):
I'd rather be blind than stupid.

No comment--


BN747
 
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scbriml
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:39 am



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 24):
I'd rather be blind than stupid.

But blind and stupid is not good.
 
NWA742
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:47 am



Quoting BN747 (Reply 25):
The two are inextricably linked!

Who cares if they are linked? What matters is people are putting blame on OBJECTS. That's right, OBJECTS, and not PEOPLE.

- A gun cannot kill anyboy without someone behind the trigger
- A spoon cannot make you fat unless you use it
- A cigarette can't kill unless you or others around you use them

It's so unbelievably freaking simple to undersand the fallacy of blaming the GUN in school shootings, and not the deranged asshole who pulled the trigger.

BTW - NIU has a gun control policy in place - guns are not allowed on campus. But did they do ANYTHING AT ALL to stop this guy?

Quoting BN747 (Reply 25):
The OBJECT is at the center of the issue.

Yep, when it's really the HUMAN that's the problem. Which is why the gun control issue is bullshit, and anyone favoring it is simply delusional or just not intelligent enough to understand how wrong they really are.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 25):
Without the inextricably linked idiot behind it.. the object is useless

That's right. A gun is useless and therefore cannot do any harm unless an idiot is behind it. DUH.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 25):
Should the ability to instantly take life -- human life -- with incredible ease.. be placed in the hands arbitrarily of such species?

How does gun control take that easy ability to kill away from deranged assholes? Tell me how. What's to stop them from buying a gun illegally, from using a knife to kill, from using a car to kill? NOTHING. All it does is take away the rights of law-abiding citizens - nothing else.




-NWA742
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:47 am



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 26):
But blind and stupid is not good.

Did you figure that out all by yourself?




-NWA742
 
BN747
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:55 am

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 27):

How does gun control take that easy ability to kill away from deranged assholes? Tell me how. What's to stop them from buying a gun illegally, from using a knife to kill, from using a car to kill? NOTHING. All it does is take away the rights of law-abiding citizens - nothing else

Easy genius... simply add the TOTAL population of all the countries in Europe where gun ownership is illegal and compare the gun deaths there to those of the lesser populated US of A, where gun ownership is legal.

The tally will be 1000s versus a few hundred. That is the effect and end-result of gun control. Calamity in the US, much, much less in Europe. Read 'em and weep...

..yes, this is a country with an extraordinarily large 'homicidal maniac' demographic. No matter who you try to shift the blame..your dismissive views (and those like it) simply fuel the fire.... and do absolutely nothing to distinguish it.

BN747

[Edited 2008-02-15 02:05:02]
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:57 am

Let's move away from gun control, since the line is pretty well engraved in the concrete and ask this question:

Did NBC's release of the VT lunatic's video in anyway influence this deranged person to do what he did? Will a video show up for this guy's 15 minutes? Will it be released and possibly influence more of these posthumous reaches for fame and notoriety?

Oh, and by the way...a plug for my position: When seconds count...the police are just minutes away.

I lift that shamelessly from a caller to a radio show I heard earlier today.

[Edited 2008-02-15 02:00:02]
 
NWA742
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:58 am



Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 13):
For fuck's sake, people, does this really have to turn into a gun debate?? Sigh....

I appreciate your point and I used to agree with that sentiment, Dave, but I think that gun control is very relevent with these shootings, as all colleges in the US have a gun control policy in place. Plus, it's practically unavoidable - people on both sides of the issue use these trajic events more often than anything else trying to get their points across.



This particular shooting hits home with me - I could have lost two dear relatives today because of this, and I'm happy to continue arguing against the fallacy that is gun control.




-NWA742
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:07 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 29):
Easy genius... simply add the TOTAL population of all the countries in Europe where gun ownership is illegal and compare the gun deaths there to those of the lesser populated US of A.

  

At the common myths that gun control has reduced crime in the world:

Since antis like you love to bring Europe and the rest of the world into this, answer me these:

1 - Did you know that assault, robbery and burglary rates are far higher in England than in the U.S.?
2 - why has the UK experienced a rise in violent crimes and muggings since gun control was implemented?
3 - look at Switzerland, they have perhaps the highest rates of gun ownership of any modern country, yet why do they have extemely low violent crime rates?
4 - Australia - since implementing gun control, why have they seen a rise in violent crimes?
5 - Chicago and Washington DC have very high gun-related crimes compared to the rest of the US, yet have among the tightest gun resrictions - why?




-NWA742

[Edited 2008-02-15 02:09:54]
 
davestanKSAN
Posts: 1532
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:17 am



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 21):
Given the nature of the incident, I don't really see how you can fully discuss it without the issue of gun control coming up.

If all you want to do is post "RIP, may God have mercy on them." type responses, then it's hardly a discussion is it?

That's true, I guess I was just emotional, or in disbelief, or sickened, or all of the above at yet another school shooting. And especially when some come into this thread not to share remorse for the victims, but to use the victims as a tool for either side of the argument.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 31):
I appreciate your point and I used to agree with that sentiment, Dave, but I think that gun control is very relevent with these shootings, as all colleges in the US have a gun control policy in place. Plus, it's practically unavoidable - people on both sides of the issue use these trajic events more often than anything else trying to get their points across.



This particular shooting hits home with me - I could have lost two dear relatives today because of this, and I'm happy to continue arguing against the fallacy that is gun control.

Good points, my friend, and again, I think I was just in a state of anger, or disbelief that this happened again. Thank God your family is okay.

So I guess the inevitable will happen and this will turn into a gun debate, I just hope that we all remember the victims here before making arguments in either direction.

 twocents 

Dave
 
NWA742
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:24 am

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 33):
I think I was just in a state of anger, or disbelief that this happened again. Thank God your family is okay.

Thank you, I appreciate that.

For the record, here is the email I received from my uncle minus any personal info:

Subject: NIU Shootings, We're all fine

"Hello Family and Friends,

***, *** and William are fine. William and I are not on campus on
Thursdays, but *** was, and was on lockdown while all this was
happening.

To say this was a close call is an understatement: Cole Hall, where the
shooting occurred, is next door to the building that has my office,
next door to the building that has ***s office, and is basically
next door to William's daycare. Indeed, I teach a class in Cole Hall.
Many of our colleagues teach there and one of our departmental computer
labs is there.

As of this note, we probably don't know many more details than any of
you but will pass them along as we get them.

Thanks for checking on us. I tried calling many of you via cell but
couldn't get through. So much for Verizon's famed network. We love you.

***"




Well I'm out for the night, got to get some rest.



-NWA742

[Edited 2008-02-15 02:30:08]
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8317
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:30 am



Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 33):
And especially when some come into this thread not to share remorse for the victims

Personally, I feel all these condolences, my prayers, God rest their souls, RIP, etc. all ring hollow. It's like all those flowers and teddy bears and that people, who have no relation or connection to the deceased, lay on the ground near the place of death. It's hollow and self serving.

At least in my opinion.
 
BN747
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:07 am

Laugh and joke about what you perceive as myth.


Not a single one of your replies answer, address why all of Europe is considerably less violent (gun-wise.. not sporting events) than the USA, Not one.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 32):
1 - Did you know that assault, robbery and burglary rates are far higher in England than in the U.S.?

I don't believe than for a second...you need a SOURCE there dude. And not stats from www.ira.com.

..and nice try at deception, the subject is 'gun violence'. Not assault, robberies and burglaries. USA still leads.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 32):
2 - why has the UK experienced a rise in violent crimes and muggings since gun control was implemented?

BFD...that's news??? As populations rise...so does crime -- any and everywhere, we still lead the pack...across the board. See Human Animal.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 32):
3 - look at Switzerland, they have perhaps the highest rates of gun ownership of any modern country, yet why do they have extemely low violent crime rates?

And the population of Rhode Island...can you possibly cough up a weaker response?

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 32):
4 - Australia - since implementing gun control, why have they seen a rise in violent crimes?

Doesn't make sense for your argument, unless you meant 'why they have NOT seen..'

...PLUS Australia is not in Europe. You are aware of that...right? And by all means..feel free to checkout the average annual number of "gun-related crimes" in Australia vs the USA 12,000+ vs 65 (Australia). Australia...uh huh.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 32):
5 - Chicago and Washington DC have very high gun-related crimes compared to the rest of the US, yet have among the tightest gun resrictions - why?

LOL...oh brother, as if 'new/tighter restrictions' SUDDENLY made enormous amounts of 'existing' weapons evaporate-- you've absolutely no sense of history.

Ummm ... could it be that 'those restrictions' arrived on the heels on pre-existing "gun-related crimes" ...

OR was Chicago and Washington tranquil, peaceful communities prior and suddenly new gun restrictions were added to the books and the place went bonkers afterwards? Answer...history.


BN747
 
planespotting
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:57 pm



Quoting L-188 (Reply 7):
How could this happen in Chicago? I thought their draconianly strict gun control laws would have prevented this....

Learn some freaking facts about a situation before spouting off about things you obviously don't care enough about to actually research and look up.

Like others have said, Dekalb is about 85 miles west of Chicago ... on top of that, there are many cities and municipalities between the two cities as well. Chicago - and gun control laws - have nothing to do with this situation at the moment. Let some more facts come out before all of you Gun nuts come out and start clamoring about how this could have been prevented if one of the students had a gun too.


My thoughts go out to the NIU community, the kids in the classroom, and the poor Graduate Assistant teaching the class. I was in those shoes myself last year - I was a TA for a class of about 120 kids in a large lecture hall much like the one here. Very scary to think about.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:26 pm



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 32):
1 - Did you know that assault, robbery and burglary rates are far higher in England than in the U.S.?
2 - why has the UK experienced a rise in violent crimes and muggings since gun control was implemented?
3 - look at Switzerland, they have perhaps the highest rates of gun ownership of any modern country, yet why do they have extemely low violent crime rates?
4 - Australia - since implementing gun control, why have they seen a rise in violent crimes?
5 - Chicago and Washington DC have very high gun-related crimes compared to the rest of the US, yet have among the tightest gun resrictions - why?

Absolutely correct.

an armed society is a polite society

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 37):
Chicago - and gun control laws - have nothing to do with this situation at the moment.

They contributed to the death toll. Period.

The university president actually had the gall to praise his police force for their reponse minutes later......I note just in time to carry out the bodies.
 
Derico
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:13 pm



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 17):
It's not a daily occurrence,

Technically you might be right, but like you said it is out of hand in the frequency.

I apologize if for the exageration, but there is really something that gets to me this particular kind of crime. Where young people, with their whole lives ahead of them and who actaully are attending a school to better themselves and their families and society, are just blown away like that.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:31 pm

Another dozen person are hurt and 7 are dead. Another educational campus and community is traumaized. Someone did a horrible act.
Beyond the gun access issues, which are for other threads, to me situations like this have to do more with the deeper issues of mental and psychological illness and the American personality of far too often using violence, especially with guns, to deal with issues in our lives. Yes, one can improve security of all structures and further limit access to guns to reduce such risks, but we cannot afford it and would raise issues of a police state.

Mental and Psychological illness is a serious problem not well handled in the USA. Such illnesses have serious stigmas can hurt a person for life from getting employment and in day to day social and family life. Our mainly private health insurance system doesn't really make sure people get the long term help they really need and governments don't want to pay for it either. We have laws that have developed over the years because of past abuses that limit the ability to force a person to get care (look at Brittany Spears in recent weeks). Add to this self-medication with and the use of illegal drugs and alcohol and it makes the situation worse.

We also need to change the USA's personality of using violence, especially with guns to deal with personal conflicts. Gun violence is far too much of the American personality and far too often depicted in our history, tv programs and movies. American was created out of violence. We glorify violence. It is part of our DNA. In many other countries, including the EC, Japan and Australia, personal gun use is not a part of their cultures or under very well understood social policy.

Until the USA deals better with the problems of mental and psychological illness and our attitudes as to guns, we will continue to see more such terroristic events.
 
NWA742
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:44 pm



Quoting BN747 (Reply 36):
Laugh and joke about what you perceive as myth.

Oh, there's no perceiving, it IS a myth.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 36):
I don't believe than for a second...you need a SOURCE there dude. And not stats from www.ira.com.

I figured you wouldn't - it's not your style to pay attention to facts, but here you go, published by the BBC. A year after enacting gun control, British crime rates have risen in several areas to be greater than the US:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/190810.stm

The English and Welsh are at greater risk of becoming a victim of mugging than people living in the United States, a report has found.

A number of potentially violent crimes such as burglary, robbery, assault and car theft appear to be more common in Britain than America.


The BBC News Online reported, July 16, 2001:

"Handgun crime in the United Kingdom rose by 40% in the two years after it passed its draconian gun ban in 1997."

Quoting BN747 (Reply 36):
..and nice try at deception, the subject is 'gun violence'. Not assault, robberies and burglaries. USA still leads.

And you don't think guns are used in assaults, robberies, and burglaries?! Are you really not seeing the link here? When a society bans guns from law-abiding citizens, CRIMINALS know they have a far lower chance of being shot at when they attack someone IN ANY MANNER.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 36):
BFD...that's news??? As populations rise...so does crime

Oh, that's your answer, then?  rotfl 

Then why did 2001 crime statistics from the FBI show America's tenth consecutive year of overall decline in rates of crime, despite a sharp increase in population?

Quoting BN747 (Reply 36):
we still lead the pack...across the board

Incorrect. Do your research.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 36):
And the population of Rhode Island...can you possibly cough up a weaker response?

The 2006 estimated population was 7,508,700 - that's over seven times Rhode Island.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1566715.stm

Guns are deeply rooted within Swiss culture - but the gun crime rate is so low that statistics are not even kept.

FACT: Switzerland has the highest rate of gun ownership in Europe yet ranks among the lowest in violent crimes overall. You think that's just a coincidence? Talk about a weak response.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 36):
Doesn't make sense for your argument, unless you meant 'why they have NOT seen..'

Oh, it's not mine. YOUR argument is that gun control helps to reduce crime, and you can't back it up because the facts point otherwise.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 36):
...PLUS Australia is not in Europe.

LEARN TO READ:

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 32):
Since antis like you love to bring Europe and the rest of the world into this



Quoting BN747 (Reply 36):
And by all means..feel free to checkout the average annual number of "gun-related crimes" in Australia vs the USA 12,000+ vs 65 (Australia). Australia...uh huh.

Number of crimes? That's it? The numer itself doesn't mean shit, the RATE means everything.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 36):
LOL...oh brother, as if 'new/tighter restrictions' SUDDENLY made enormous amounts of 'existing' weapons evaporate

There'es the POINT - they don't make anything disappear. Exisiting weapons are here to stay - gun control only takes them out of the hands of LAW-ABIDING citizens. It does NOTHING to stop criminals from using them illegally. What don't you understand about that?

Quoting BN747 (Reply 36):
OR was Chicago and Washington tranquil, peaceful communities prior and suddenly new gun restrictions were added to the books and the place went bonkers afterwards?

Nope - they've always had higher violent, gun-related crime rates than the rest of the US, and that includes Detroit, too. Idiotic liberal politicians thought banning guns would help those figures, and it has since done NOTHING for all three cities.




-NWA742
 
ebs757
Posts: 620
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:50 pm



Quoting FutureUALpilot (Reply 4):
Too bad the prick didn't just take himself out first and save everybody the hassle.

Weird, my teacher said the exact same words in class today before we went to a prayer vigil. I go to High School in Chicago and we have several Alum and Students at Northern. I know a few and thankfully they are all fine. RIP the victims and pray for their family's and friends. Its ridicules how this thread is turning into "who is more violent" bullshit
 
BN747
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:03 pm

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 41):


First off, all .. and I mean all of your cherry picking of 'some communities' of the UK seeing a rise in crime and Switzerland having higher gun ownership DOES NOT bode for the whole of Europe.

Your attempt to pass of sporadic incidents is tantamount to saying ' with crime out of control in Chicago and Washington...the whole USA is completely overrun by gun crime'... and it isn't. My charge still stands.. the whole of Europe vs the USA...the USA is by far a much, much larger stage of gun violence/deaths not matter how bad certain areas of the UK get. It'll never come close. Nice attempt with deception..but it'll only fly with the stupid.

I'll stack up the list gun-crime ladened US cities against those of ALL of Europe .. anyday! And the US will lead hands down. No questions asked.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 41):

And you don't think guns are used in assaults, robberies, and burglaries?! Are you really not seeing the link here?

Absolutely, you trying to pass off (a rise in UK) collective assaults, robberies, and burglaries as ALL gun crimes AND they are not! Without question the majority of those ARE NOT gun crimes. You're losing credibility on this argument faster than the stock market. Stop being so dishonest in trying sneak figures into pile they don't belong in..the focus is gun crimes. Not crime in general...GUN crimes. Can you focus?

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 41):
LEARN TO READ:

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 32):
Since antis like you love to bring Europe and the rest of the world into this

Take you own advice here, junior... my original charge (again) still stands.. and firmly. Europe vs the USA. You can't find me saying 'the rest of the world' anywhere in this thread. You and your desperation to save face via continued deception added 'the rest of the world'. Again buck up and 'focus'. Again, it's Europe vs the USA. Not certains spotty areas...hell, Maryville, Kansas isn't all of the USA no more than cbad sections of Birmingham, England is all of Europe. Focus. and focus on 'gun violence...as is the subject - in part - of this thread.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 41):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 36):
And by all means..feel free to checkout the average annual number of "gun-related crimes" in Australia vs the USA 12,000+ vs 65 (Australia). Australia...uh huh.

Number of crimes? That's it? The numer itself doesn't mean shit, the RATE means everything.

AND again...'it's gun crimes...not crimes. Gun crimes..and in the above example those numbers are GUN-DEATHS. Ah genius, you can establish rates without the numbers...but you're free to give it a shot. Ever heard that the old axiom...the truth lies in the numbers. Not rates. Rates are usually associated on a per capita scaling. Numbers are exactly that...and exact count. You must have scored all 'A's in Deception 101.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 41):

There'es the POINT - they don't make anything disappear. Exisiting weapons are here to stay - gun control only takes them out of the hands of LAW-ABIDING citizens. It does NOTHING to stop criminals from using them illegally. What don't you understand about that?

I understand everything about that's flying over your head...that no one (except) you expected the implemetation of such laws to have a long term effect..not overnight impact. These laws are will on tighten their grip on the situation in an effort to put a cork in the 'growing placement' of weapons into the hands of anyone who wants one. It is a pro-active measure designed for long term impact on a bad situation projected to get worse. Of course you expected it to have a microwave instantaneous effect. 20 years, those place could have a very different look - statistically gun-crime wise. An on the other hand..being the human animal (with your advocacy of more guns)...it could get unimaginatively worse!

GOAL of tighter gun-ownership laws??? To stifle current gun ownership...NOT increase gun ownership..but stop it from growing beyond where it is now. Why? Because they know regardless...crime is mostly to grow with population growth itself..why on earth push gun ownership growth as well. Stopping/slowing one decreases the chances of gun violence/death rates. You can't have MORE gun-related death/violence with less guns..that makes no sense whatsoever.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 41):

Nope - they've always had higher violent, gun-related crime rates than the rest of the US, and that includes Detroit, too. Idiotic liberal politicians thought banning guns would help those figures, and it has since done NOTHING for all three cities.

Except there are more school shootings in those areas now (thanks to pre-existing guns) than there were before everyone jumped on the fear-bandwagon and armed themselves. I'm certain 30, 40 years ago the number armed citizens in those areas were exponentially less than they are today. Tighter gun controls are designed to stop what you advocate...guns in the hands of all citizens..because it is a forgone conclusion that population growth = crime growth. If that's true, guns in the hands of everyone who wants one PLUS population growth/crime growth EQUAL only one thing. MORE gun-related violence and death. Any of this sinking in?


BN747

[Edited 2008-02-15 13:17:35]
 
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scbriml
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:08 pm



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 28):
Did you figure that out all by yourself?

No, I needed your help.  wink 

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 41):
And you don't think guns are used in assaults, robberies, and burglaries?! Are you really not seeing the link here? When a society bans guns from law-abiding citizens, CRIMINALS know they have a far lower chance of being shot at when they attack someone IN ANY MANNER.

And you're missing the point completely. Even before the ban, the vast majority of Brits did not possess a gun. So, in reality, the odds of a victim of crime being armed were already infinitesimally small. Maybe there's just a chance that the difference in crime rates before and after the gun ban have nothing to do with the gun ban itself!  scratchchin 
 
Chi-town
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:15 pm

Coming from a fellow Illinois university....my condolences to the families, victims, and students. I have many friends that go to NIU and I am grateful that they are all OK.

Campus violence is getting out of control. It's almost getting to the point where students are afraid to go to class.
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:36 pm



Quoting BN747 (Reply 43):
First off, all .. and I mean all of your cherry picking of 'some communities' of the UK

I didn't cherry-pick any community. The sources I posted reference entire countries, not communities. And of course, you make no attempt to refute them because you can't, you have no logical basis for your argument, you can only sit there and attempt to toss words in and out of my mouth.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 43):
DOES NOT bode for the whole of Europe.

I didn't say it did, did I? Besides, you said ALL of Europe had lower crime rates than the US, and I proved you WRONG.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 43):
My charge still stands.. the whole of Europe vs the USA...the USA is by far a much, much larger stage of gun violence/deaths not matter how bad certain areas of the UK get. It'll never come close. Nice attempt with deception..but it'll only fly with the stupid.

Right, and comparing a single country to an entire continent with tens of countries that each have different policies on gun control isn't deception...........yeah, that'll only fly with the stupid.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 43):
Absolutely, you trying to pass off (a rise in UK) collective assaults, robberies, and burglaries as ALL gun crimes

I am? Where did I say that? Having problems reading, again?

Quoting BN747 (Reply 43):
You and your desperation to save face via continued deception added 'the rest of the world'.

Oh, so you can add an entire continent into the picture to compare and I can't, then?

 rotfl 

Quoting BN747 (Reply 43):
AND again...'it's gun crimes...not crimes. Gun crimes..and in the above example those numbers are GUN-DEATHS.

And gun deaths are the only type of gun crimes? Gun crimes can include pretty much every type of crime, you incredibly smart individual.

I'll ask you AGAIN - why do you think violent crimes, INCLUDING GUN GRIMES, have risen in Britain ever since implementing gun control?

Quoting BN747 (Reply 43):
Ever heard that the old axiom...the truth lies in the numbers. Not rates.

 rotfl 

When discussing CRIME and comparing different countries, the truth lies in the RATES, because you have to include all sorts of factors, number one being population. Ever take a statistics class, genius? Why do you think crime numbers are computed into RATES?

Quoting BN747 (Reply 43):
I understand everything about that's flying over your head...that no one (except) you expected the implemetation of such laws to have a long term effect..not overnight impact.

It's been over a decade since the UK implemented gun control and they've experienced nothing but an increase in violent crime, and that includes gun crimes:

According to the BBC, "Handgun crime in the United Kingdom rose by 40% in the two years after it passed its draconian gun ban in 1997."

Quoting BN747 (Reply 43):
These laws are will on tighten

Come again?

Quoting BN747 (Reply 43):
It is a pro-active measure designed for long term impact on a bad situation projected to get worse.

It is a bullshit measure designed to take away basic human rights. It does nothing but impair the law-abiding citizen to defend him or herself against crime, and so far, the long term impacts of gun control have proven negative.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 43):
Of course you expected it to have a microwave instantaneous effect

No, I don't. Making up crap like this isn't helping your already incredibly weak argument.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 43):
20 years, those place could have a very different look - statistically gun-crime wise

Yep, it will be worse, it already is.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 43):
crime is mostly to grow with population growth itself..why on earth push gun ownership growth as well.

So more people are able to defend themselves against the rising number of criminals, simple.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 43):
You can't have MORE gun-related death/violence with less guns..

LESS GUNS?  rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

The only less guns you will see are those who are pulled out of the hands of law-abiding citizens! You think any criminal is going to give up their weapon? Do you understand that making guns illegal in this country will create the largest black market of illegal goods in all of our history? It'll make drugs look like nothing!

Quoting BN747 (Reply 43):
Except there are more school shootings in those areas now (thanks to pre-existing guns)

Any ask yourself why these pre-existing guns used in the shootings are still at large? The answer is simple - gun control doesn't pull ownership or the ability to get ownership of any gun from ANY criminal that wants to use one.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 43):
I'm certain 30, 40 years ago the number armed citizens in those areas were exponentially less than they are today.

Wrong - when guns were legal to own in those cities, the number of armed law abiding citizens was much higher, and the crime rates were much lower.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 43):
Tighter gun controls are designed to stop what you advocate...guns in the hands of all citizens..

Tighter gun controls are designed to implement what you advocate.......guns in the hands of all criminals.

FACT: Switzerland has the highest rate of gun ownership in Europe yet ranks among the lowest in violent crimes overall. You think that's just a coincidence?

Quoting BN747 (Reply 43):
because it is a forgone conclusion that population growth = crime growth

Bullshit. I'll ask again.......then why did 2001 crime statistics from the FBI show America's tenth consecutive year of overall decline in rates of crime, despite a sharp increase in population?

And people like you forget that a higher percentage of armed citizens = less crime. See Switzerland and compare it to all the rest of gun-control happy Europe.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 44):
Even before the ban, the vast majority of Brits did not possess a gun.

And after the ban, only criminals have the guns and law abiding citizens are helpless to defend themselves. Criminals know this and therefore crime has increased, because they know they are attacking helpless people.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 44):
Maybe there's just a chance that the difference in crime rates before and after the gun ban have nothing to do with the gun ban itself!

Not hardly, see above.




-NWA742
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:49 pm

Also, BN747 - I'll give you another example of a European country with high gun ownership and low crimes.

Norway.

http://www.theacru.org/blog/2007/05/..._gun_control_is_counterproductive/

According to this study,

Quote:
Norway has the highest rate of gun ownership in Western Europe, yet possesses the lowest murder rate. In contrast, Holland's murder rate is nearly the worst, despite having the lowest gun ownership rate in Western Europe. Sweden and Denmark are two more examples of nations with high murder rates but few guns.

Before you bitch about the source, look at Norways crime and gun ownership statistics - they will tell you the same thing.

And another point, because you keep begging me to keep talking about gun-related crimes only, remember this:

Quote:
The important thing to keep in mind is not the rate of deaths by gun - a statistic that anti-gun advocates are quick to recite - but the overall murder rate, regardless of means. The criminologists explain:

[P]er capita murder overall is only half as frequent in the United States as in several other nations where gun murder is rarer, but murder by strangling, stabbing, or beating is much more frequent.

-NWA742
 
BN747
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:54 pm



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 46):
I didn't say it did, did I? Besides, you said ALL of Europe had lower crime rates than the US, and I proved you WRONG.

LOL...demetia at age 21??? How on earth did you prove that ALL of Europe has HIGHER crime rates than the US?

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 46):
Right, and comparing a single country to an entire continent with tens of countries that each have different policies on gun control isn't deception...........yeah, that'll only fly with the stupid.

Oh my god, you really can't be serious... you can't see the enormous imbalance in a gang of countries having less gun-crime violence than a single country??? Mathematics simply has no meaning in your world.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 46):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 43):
It is a pro-active measure designed for long term impact on a bad situation projected to get worse.

It is a bullshit measure designed to take away basic human rights. It does nothing but impair the law-abiding citizen to defend him or herself against crime, and so far, the long term impacts of gun control have proven negative

And THERE it is ladies and gentleman, the true core of exactly of what you're trying to advocate. You'd rather everybody be armed and believe that will deter anyone from pulling a gun on anyone else. Most people on the planet believe if every country on the planet were armed with nukes..it would certainly be a bad thing. See the parallel. The problem with your 'arm everyone theory' is that if everyone in that school was armed, the shooter would have probably been taken down...along with a few innocents shot inadvertently in the process.

Secondly, all these school shootings ..and there has been far too many.. have not been criminals on innocent citizens. They've been frustrated normal people reaching for the easiest way to solve a problem that's been eating at them. The kid who got his dad's gun and shot his sister in the face over a bag of potato chips could not have done so if dad had NO gun in the house. Yeah, he could have tried to stab her instead..which would you rather dodge..a knife ... or a bullet?

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 46):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 43):
crime is mostly to grow with population growth itself..why on earth push gun ownership growth as well.

So more people are able to defend themselves against the rising number of criminals, simple.

Again..all school shootings are not committed by 'criminals' per se.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 46):
LESS GUNS? rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl

The only less guns you will see are those who are pulled out of the hands of law-abiding citizens! You think any criminal is going to give up their weapon? Do you understand that making guns illegal in this country will create the largest black market of illegal goods in all of our history? It'll make drugs look like nothing!

That's a stretch..if only guns could reach the proliferation of drugs. Of course it'll leave only the criminals..and how many do you think that would be out 290 million americans? 10% of Americans are gun criminals? I don't think so..
1% -- 2.9 million Americans are gun criminals? I don't think so. Exactly, a small percentage in the large scope of things. I'd rather take my chances with that versus EVERYONE being armed..and the

- Daily Nut jobs getting miffed at someone cutting the line at Magic Mountain and blasting everyone insight - plus scores of kids around.

- Daily Police chases upgraded to drive/shootouts in city streets and freeways with hordes of innocents.

- Daily estranged/dejected boyfriends/girlfriend/spouse spats resulting in family blastings as a quick solution.

- Daily disgruntled employees emptying clips in the office trying to decipher who the shooter is.

- Nightly barroom brawls resulting in old Dodge City shootouts because some stepped on someone's toes or looked at someone's chick.

We haven't even gotten to potential school shootings under your ideal scenario...

Feel free to add in the normal criminal gun violence at anytime...but that is the world you are advocating.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 46):
Any ask yourself why these pre-existing guns used in the shootings are still at large? The answer is simple - gun control doesn't pull ownership or the ability to get ownership of any gun from ANY criminal that wants to use one.

Okay..that made no sense whatsoever...

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 46):

Wrong - when guns were legal to own in those cities, the number of armed law abiding citizens was much higher, and the crime rates were much lower.

Source on that??? AN dif true...the law-abiding people back then were far less psychotic than your neighbors today.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 46):
Tighter gun controls are designed to implement what you advocate.......guns in the hands of all criminals.

PRECISELY..the criminals. And that much harder for disenfranchised, angry students and co-workers who are NOT criminals to obtain them...unless they too.. associate with criminals.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 46):
Bullshit. I'll ask again.......then why did 2001 crime statistics from the FBI show America's tenth consecutive year of overall decline in rates of crime, despite a sharp increase in population?

And people like you forget that a higher percentage of armed citizens = less crime. See Switzerland and compare it to all the rest of gun-control happy Europe.

1) There you go with deception again....crime statistics, now run and get the gun violence statistics...

2) And since your so high on gun ownership in Switzerland...exactly how many Swiss owns guns??? Any idea?

3) The USA is NOT Switzerland. Switzerland is the kind of place that if you borrow you neighbors gardenhouse without asking...he doesn't open fire on you. WHY? Because they are a homogenous and better adjusted society. They are not mal-adjusted and psychotic (thinking everyone is out to get them) as MOST here (esp. the gun nuts) are here.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 46):
And after the ban, only criminals have the guns and law abiding citizens are helpless to defend themselves. Criminals know this and therefore crime has increased, because they know they are attacking helpless people.

Yeah, let's see those stats too that GUN CRIMES (not crime in general) but gun-crimes are on the increase in Britain...please indulge.


BN747
 
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scbriml
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RE: Illinois University Shooting, 17 Reported Shot

Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:02 am



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 46):
And after the ban, only criminals have the guns and law abiding citizens are helpless to defend themselves.

You just don't get it do you?

Even before the gun ban, the vast majority of Brits did not possess guns. 99.99% of us do not possess, nor have we ever possessed, guns. To make matters even worse for your theory, the vast majority of us don't want guns.

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