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jetjack74
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U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:37 am

U.S. strikes within Pakistan — without notice
Unilateral attack on al-Qaida commander called a model for operations

Quoted from the article
In the predawn hours of Jan. 29, a CIA Predator aircraft flew in a slow arc above the Pakistani town of Mir Ali. The drone's operator, relying on information secretly passed to the CIA by local informants, clicked a computer mouse and sent the first of two Hellfire missiles hurtling toward a cluster of mud-brick buildings a few miles from the town center.

The missiles killed Abu Laith al-Libi, a senior al-Qaeda commander and a man who had repeatedly eluded the CIA's dragnet. It was the first successful strike against al-Qaeda's core leadership in two years, and it involved, U.S. officials say, an unusual degree of autonomy by the CIA inside Pakistan.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23228197/
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AirTranTUS
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:48 am

You may not like the methods, but the results here could not be better: a direct hit on an al-Qaeda leader.
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scottieprecord
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:56 am

If Pakistan allows the CIA to put a secret predator base in their borders, I think they expect some secrecy in the operations based from there.
 
L-188
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:12 am

Sometimes it is easier to beg forgiveness then to ask permission.

With the delays in gaining Pakistani permissions I don't blame the CIA.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Falcon84
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:27 am

If these guys are planning attacks on U.S. and Allied forces in both Afghanistan and Iraq, then I think we have every right to hit them.

Maybe we'll get lucky and see a glimps of OBL being ripped to shreds.
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NWA742
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:34 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
Maybe we'll get lucky and see a glimps of OBL being ripped to shreds.

 checkmark 

I tell you my friend it would really make my year waking up to see that news all over TV and the web.........."Osama bin Laden killed by US Predator Aircraft."




-NWA742
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aloges
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:38 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
Maybe we'll get lucky and see a glimps of OBL being ripped to shreds.

I'd rather see him captured and put on an entirely non-halal diet for the rest of his days...  duck 
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
baroque
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:55 pm



Quoting Aloges (Reply 6):
I'd rather see him captured and put on an entirely non-halal diet for the rest of his days...

One problem is that the US not only wants to win but also wants to win in public - has anyone wondered if the two aims might not be inconsistent.

The more you advertise independent operations, the more difficult it will be to conduct them.

I see the evidence for the success of the mission is of the usual high quality.

If the CIA does have agents, they will find it instantly more difficult to be effective, and as it is, anyone in the area trying to make a discrete phone call to his girl friend, or even wife, will probably find themselves in a spot of bother.
 
bravo45
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:01 pm



Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 1):
You may not like the methods, but the results here could not be better

Not to mention that the strikes gone bad are not even mentioned. Mush has been stupid enough to accept those raids as conducted by Pakistani forces.

Quoting Scottieprecord (Reply 2):
If Pakistan allows the CIA to put a secret predator base in their borders, I think they expect some secrecy in the operations based from there.

I personally think you are right, but expect that to change with Busharaf's power getting less and less every day. Hope the US is not foolish enough to repeat a Iran type solution, for I am sure the people have had enough and the backlash would be very severe. Already I don't think he would have lasted as long as he did without US support.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 6):
I'd rather see him captured and put on an entirely non-halal diet for the rest of his days...

Not a believer in capital punishment?? I disagree with that notion, there are people who ought not to have the privilege to be alive.
 
baroque
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:28 pm



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 8):
Quoting Aloges (Reply 6):
I'd rather see him captured and put on an entirely non-halal diet for the rest of his days...

Not a believer in capital punishment?? I disagree with that notion, there are people who ought not to have the privilege to be alive.

Even more irritating, feed him halal, but leave him wondering if it is.

And no Bravo, sorry to disappoint, keep the bugger alive, eventually he will tell us something useful, and not while having his finger nails extracted or hanging upside down over a vat of boiling oil. No, just be polite and patient.

Would someone care to enlighten us all on the value to the US of publicising whatever happened. Possibilities might be:

1. Home politics - well I just hope it is worth it.

2. To frighten other Al Q - yes that will work.

3. To cover up who was really killed.

4. Nothing actually happened at all so now they are waiting for Thurber's other shoe to fall.

I await with interest.
 
aloges
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:12 pm



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 8):
Not a believer in capital punishment?

Not at all, for various reasons that don't belong in this thread.

However, bin Laden would turn into a "martyr" the second he was killed, that is why I would rather a lifelong prison sentence - seeing someone rot in a cell generally makes him less of an idol. I am sure he is well aware of that (if he is in fact still alive) and will make sure to die a "heroic" combat death, even if it means but a sip of poison upon the arrival of his pursuers.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
bravo45
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:53 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
And no Bravo, sorry to disappoint, keep the bugger alive, eventually he will tell us something useful, and not while having his finger nails extracted or hanging upside down over a vat of boiling oil. No, just be polite and patient.



Quoting Aloges (Reply 10):
Not at all, for various reasons that don't belong in this thread.

I am not at all disappointed, in fact see the point and really respect that. Honestly!

Quoting Aloges (Reply 10):
However, bin Laden would turn into a "martyr" the second he was killed,

The above I can agree with, but thinking about it in that way, there are a lot of other and frankly infinitely more important concerns that are not even being seriously talked about.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:04 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
One problem is that the US not only wants to win but also wants to win in public - has anyone wondered if the two aims might not be inconsistent.

I think our administration has done a terrible job with the PR campaign for this war, and it has seriously affected the support for the war--so much so that it will probably be ended before it's ever "won".
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:41 pm



Quoting Aloges (Reply 6):
I'd rather see him captured and put on an entirely non-halal diet for the rest of his days...

Can you imagine the wave of hijackings and bombings that would occur if he were captured? Even if it meant exhausting their numbers foolishly fast, every terrorist in the world would try to force the US to free OBL in a massive campaign, I believe. And if somehow he ended up at the UN court, they would probably succeed.

No, I think the best thing to do with him is to turn him into air pollution and offal as rapidly as can be done.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
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STT757
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:44 pm

The US was pressuring Pakistan to allow US Special Forces to conduct ground operations inside Pakistan, Pakistan refused the Ground troops but is allowing US aircraft to operate within the tribal areas.
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dl021
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:05 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):

1. Home politics - well I just hope it is worth it.

2. To frighten other Al Q - yes that will work.

3. To cover up who was really killed.

4. Nothing actually happened at all so now they are waiting for Thurber's other shoe to fall.

1.... probably doesn't hurt in that regard....reports of successes are just as important, if not more, than the unflagging desire of the media to report nothing but dismal failure (in their estimation).

2. Probably it makes them move alot more and spend more time and effort on self-preservation rather than organizing attacks.

3. Possibly.

4. Doubtful. I am willing to bet they publicized it because the terrorists already knew they got hit and the Pakistani government knew the hit happened, and we knew it happened.....so where's the lasting need for post action opsec?

I'll bet it goes down better that it was a Predator rather than a helo or manned jet. I wonder how the Pakistanis will react to the overflight, unless they authorized it somehow.
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dl021
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:06 pm

double post....please delete.

[Edited 2008-02-19 15:07:08]
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bravo45
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:10 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
Can you imagine the wave of hijackings and bombings that would occur if he were captured? Even if it meant exhausting their numbers foolishly fast, every terrorist in the world would try to force the US to free OBL in a massive campaign, I believe.

I don't think that will happen, AQ is already not letting any opportunity go by, the most will be a few people who already belong to AQ might take some desperate action. But the masses usually associated with him really don't have anything to do with him and couldn't care less. I am not saying nothing will happen, but his popularity is misunderstood in the West.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
And if somehow he ended up at the UN court, they would probably succeed.

Here you really hit a nerve, that court is a joke, even genocide has not been enough to get the max punishment. But at the same time, don't be naive OBL might have killed many more people in other countries compared tot he 9/11 death toll, but no one will get to hold his to account once his whereabouts are known, I don't care who gets him.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 14):
Pakistan refused the Ground troops but is allowing US aircraft to operate within the tribal areas.

With the election results in mind, expect that to change. Might as ready an apartment, Busharraf might have to become a 'persecuted refugee'. But I won't underestimate him, he is very clever and he can manipulate the parties. Its good that no single party has gotten an overwhelming majority but its something that can be exploited, they are all corrupt anyway.
 
L-188
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:09 am



Quoting Aloges (Reply 10):
Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 8):
Not a believer in capital punishment?

Not at all, for various reasons that don't belong in this thread.

However, bin Laden would turn into a "martyr" the second he was killed, that is why I would rather a lifelong prison sentence - seeing someone rot in a cell generally makes him less of an idol. I am sure he is well aware of that (if he is in fact still alive) and will make sure to die a "heroic" combat death, even if it means but a sip of poison upon the arrival of his pursuers.

Frankly I want to see him get the DP.

And I figure he would want the chair as quickly as possible to be become that maryter.

But what would make it poetic, is if all these anti-capital punishment people start sueing to stop the execution and get it stayed for years while it works it way through the system. And Binnie can't do anything to get them to stop sueing.
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seb146
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:22 am

Ever notice how many "senior al-Qaida officials" are killed in raids? Exactly how many senor al-Qaida officials are there? Why do we not hear about raids that involve al-Qaida followers that are not officials? I am sure the reports are out there. Also, does the Bush Administration really care now that Zawahiri (sp) is on trial? I guess so. I am glad someone in the Administration is realizing the fight against al-Qaida is still on going. Don't be shocked I said something positive about the Bush Administration. Credit where credit is due.
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HAWK21M
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:32 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
If these guys are planning attacks on U.S. and Allied forces in both Afghanistan and Iraq, then I think we have every right to hit them.

Does that mean INDIA is permitted to strike those terror camps accross the border in POK?
regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
baroque
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:25 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 19):
Ever notice how many "senior al-Qaida officials" are killed in raids? Exactly how many senor al-Qaida officials are there? Why do we not hear about raids that involve al-Qaida followers that are not officials? I am sure the reports are out there. Also, does the Bush Administration really care now that Zawahiri (sp) is on trial? I guess so. I am glad someone in the Administration is realizing the fight against al-Qaida is still on going. Don't be shocked I said something positive about the Bush Administration. Credit where credit is due.

Very much my thoughts Seb, which is in part why I feel nervous when nothing comes in about what is happening in the wild North West, and even more nervous when I hear of something that has happened!

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
One problem is that the US not only wants to win but also wants to win in public - has anyone wondered if the two aims might not be inconsistent.

I think our administration has done a terrible job with the PR campaign for this war, and it has seriously affected the support for the war--so much so that it will probably be ended before it's ever "won".

I am glad you put " "s on "won", that is the problem, it is not something that can be won in the sense that OBL will one day come down from the hills to sue for peace and quiet or that if he is killed or dies the problems will end. In any event, now he almost certainly does not have the authority to call the dogs off. As best one can tell, OBL has been trying to cool a few fronts down in the past few years. Certainly he thought blowing the locals up in Iraq was counter productive. It is not clear if he too is behind the split in Jemaah Islamiyah, but there is a split in JI.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
I'll bet it goes down better that it was a Predator rather than a helo or manned jet. I wonder how the Pakistanis will react to the overflight, unless they authorized it somehow.

Probably true.

As Seb points out, the raids always kill important Al Q personages. But how many more are there? And every time a few are killed, how many more spring up to take their place? The numbers of followers might now be in the millions - still a small proportion of the Islamic World.

How many millions is it feasible to plan to kill?

In WW II there was a strategy set out back in 1942 at a series of JOINT planning meetings held in the USA for fighting the war. First N Africa to link up with 7th army. Sicily, then Italy. Invasion of N France followed by S France ... And similar in the Pacific. A plan was set and with some variations followed.

Clearly this is different, although in the first Bush enunciations you would hardly be able to tell.

In this case, there seems to have been no clear idea of the nature of the problem, let alone how it might be overcome. And nearly 7 years down the track, I venture to suggest the picture is more confused than it was in late 2001.

It is worth looking at what some countries have managed to achieve. Arguably, some have managed to persuade at least a part of their own locals to abandon violence.

Can anyone lay out a plan for 2009 let alone 2015? Odds are, that there will still be terrorist attacks in both those years in both Iraq and Afghanistan unless something different is tried. And by different, I don't mean a variety of "surge".
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:47 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 19):
now that Zawahiri (sp) is on trial?

Ayman el Zawahiri on trial ? He first should be caught.
 
baroque
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:01 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 20):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
If these guys are planning attacks on U.S. and Allied forces in both Afghanistan and Iraq, then I think we have every right to hit them.

Does that mean INDIA is permitted to strike those terror camps across the border in POK?

Depends on how many Predators they have I guess.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:41 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 23):

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 20):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
If these guys are planning attacks on U.S. and Allied forces in both Afghanistan and Iraq, then I think we have every right to hit them.

Does that mean INDIA is permitted to strike those terror camps across the border in POK?

Depends on how many Predators they have I guess.

Its not about Predators but rather crossing the Border.
 Smile
regds
MEL
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baroque
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:52 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 24):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 23):

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 20):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
If these guys are planning attacks on U.S. and Allied forces in both Afghanistan and Iraq, then I think we have every right to hit them.

Does that mean INDIA is permitted to strike those terror camps across the border in POK?

Depends on how many Predators they have I guess.

Its not about Predators but rather crossing the Border.

Well, I know that is what your guys would like to do, but going on the US press releases, physical border crossing is not on the menu, but Predators might be.

Anyway, who knows what the new Pakistan is going to be like? Who knows, it might be better. Some would say how could it not be, but life is full of surprises, and most of them are unpleasant.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice

Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:04 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 25):
Anyway, who knows what the new Pakistan is going to be like? Who knows, it might be better

We out here are really hoping for that.Democracy & clean one too is needed.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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