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EL-AL
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:34 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 98):
I mean the wall which some people might feel necessary to get erected when East Jerusalem becomes the Palestinian Capital.

Again, maybe you are right. Frankly, I dont think there is any Israeli politician who can divide Jerusalem because of the public consensus in Israel regarding the capitol. When the Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak (in office 1999-2001) tried to separate Jerusalem in 2000 the public reaction was so strong against him that we was forced to resign (then Ariel Sharon was elected, in February 2001).

Quoting Analog (Reply 99):
How sad. In 1999 I drove around the Palestinian Territories in an Israeli-plated car without any problems.

Sad indeed. We are all sorry for the death of the relative peace that was here in 1999.

Quoting Analog (Reply 99):
Obviously;suggesting something like that would probably end an Israeli politician's career. It extends beyond the city (a good way towards the dead sea), as Israel is effectively expanding Jerusalem (East Jerusalem, Ariel, etc.) into the West Bank.

The wall's only goal is to stop terrorists entering Israeli areas from Palestinian areas. Only 3 weeks ago there was a terror attack, killing inocent Israeli woman in the Southen city of Dimona. Why there? because it's the only part where there is no wall/fance.
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andessmf
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:48 pm

May I also remind you that Greece is not an official country name. It is called the 'Hellenic Republic'.
 
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OA260
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:24 pm



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 101):
May I also remind you that Greece is not an official country name. It is called the 'Hellenic Republic'.

You are indeed correct. Well done on that most foreigners dont know that !!!
 
andessmf
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:44 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 102):
Well done on that most foreigners dont know that !!!

Happens when you are a geography geek like I am.
 
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OA260
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:04 pm

Demonstrators Cause Clashes in Skopje


In the meantime, clashes were reported on Wednesday night near the Liaison Office of the Hellenic Republic. Police that had been deployed outside the Office housing the Greek diplomats pushed back the demonstrators. The latter hurled stones and bottles against the police, damaging cars parked near the Liaison Office. Firing tear gases and sound grenades, police dispersed the demonstrators around the Liaison Office. A Skopje television station reported that the demonstrators injured a local reporter. The tension outside the Liaison Office was triggered by youths who had taken part in a rally held in central Skopje.

www.ert.gr
 
Analog
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:44 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 97):
So what did FYROM ask Greece to rename their part of Macedonia to then seeing as you know so much ???? What did FYROM come up with in the most recent talks at the table???? What compromise did they offer????

I was being sarcastic.

Just because one party (Greece) demands something from another party (Macedonia/FYROM), doesn't mean that a negotiation and/or compromise is called for. One compromises when one accepts that the other side's demand has some legitimacy, or when one fears the consequences of not compromising.

Reasonable people can have different views on the name issue. What obliges Macedonia/FYROM to accept that the Greek demand is legitimate? Macedonia may decide that it is in its best interests to compromise, given the real threat of retaliation (no EU membership, border hassles, etc.).
 
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OA260
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:07 pm



Quoting Analog (Reply 105):
What obliges Macedonia/FYROM to accept that the Greek demand is legitimate?

Errrr the current UN sponsored talks !!!
 
ALexeu
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:19 pm



Quoting EL-AL (Reply 96):
Every 2 weeks a poilce convoy moved from West Jerusalem to Mt. Scoups, as agreed with Jordan.
No Israelis enter to areas under the Palestinian Authority control, simply because they will be killed. In 2000 two Israelis entered to the Palestinian city of Ramallah by mistake, and they were brutally lynched to death. Even since the outbreak of the second uprising ("intifada" in arabic) Israelis do not enter to Palestinian control zone (unless they are hijacked there, like Gilad Shalit, Israeli been hijacked and is held in Gaza for 2 years now)

So, how do you visit Benthlehem? There is a tour agency in Belgrade offering this, so I just wondered. They said that it's pretty safe.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 103):
Happens when you are a geography geek like I am.

Me too! I know every country, territory etc.
 
iliribdl
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:54 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 89):
More BS !!! Really you should read the news a bit more. Greece has actively helped its Balkan neighbours Romania and Bulgaria towards EU membership and will also assist FYROM in EU membership but not without the name issue sorted once and for all. If FYROM wont compromise then Greece will use its Veto which it has every right to do so.

So they help the countries "they" choose to "want" to help. Why not help their neighbors Macedonians or Albanians?



Macedonia never was Greek and never will be Greek. Greeks might have lived there (as a minority), just like the Albanians live in Greece, but we don't claim it ours.
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iliribdl
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:57 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 91):
Greece is happy with them having Macedonia in the name as long as its defined by something else in front. They are compromising plenty. They just didnt see why they should have the sole claim to it.

Giving you an example here, say you had a son today and wanted to name him John, and I came to you and said no way, you gotta include Sam (or whatever you want to say) before the name John, to be able to name him that, otherwise choose another name, since I claim that name and no one can have it.

You call that compromising?

Greeks are making things worse than they are.
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iliribdl
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:02 am



Quoting Analog (Reply 105):
Just because one party (Greece) demands something from another party (Macedonia/FYROM), doesn't mean that a negotiation and/or compromise is called for. One compromises when one accepts that the other side's demand has some legitimacy, or when one fears the consequences of not compromising.

Reasonable people can have different views on the name issue. What obliges Macedonia/FYROM to accept that the Greek demand is legitimate? Macedonia may decide that it is in its best interests to compromise, given the real threat of retaliation (no EU membership, border hassles, etc.).

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I don't see how Macedonia being called Macedonia will in any way hurt Greece? Will they cease to exist? Will they forever have bad luck? Will the gods wake up and demand an answer? I mean comon, its a name for gods sake.
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OA260
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:00 am



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 108):
So they help the countries "they" choose to "want" to help. Why not help their neighbors Macedonians or Albanians?



Macedonia never was Greek and never will be Greek. Greeks might have lived there (as a minority), just like the Albanians live in Greece, but we don't claim it ours.

The province of Macedonia with in Greek borders will always be Greek Macedonia !!!

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 109):
You call that compromising?

Yes its compromising . Greece is not asking them to totally drop the name Macedonia !!!

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 110):
I don't see how Macedonia being called Macedonia will in any way hurt Greece? Will they cease to exist? Will they forever have bad luck? Will the gods wake up and demand an answer? I mean comon, its a name for gods sake.

Well you have alot to learn then. I suggest you read up on it a bit more if you are really that interested. In fact go back to post number 1 and read down . You might learn why it may hurt Greece!!!
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:35 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 111):
Macedonia never was Greek and never will be Greek. Greeks might have lived there (as a minority), just like the Albanians live in Greece, but we don't claim it ours.
-
The province of Macedonia with in Greek borders will always be Greek Macedonia !!!

-
He referred to the COUNTRY with the name Macedonia, and not to a province somewhere

Quoting OA260 (Reply 111):
es its compromising . Greece is not asking them to totally drop the name Macedonia !!!

-
well, not too long ago, Greece made a lot of fuss exactly about the name Macedonia as such. If that changed to a compromise with sense ..... well .................................
 
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OA260
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:39 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 112):
He referred to the COUNTRY with the name Macedonia, and not to a province somewhere

Are you his spokes person now???

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 112):
well, not too long ago, Greece made a lot of fuss exactly about the name Macedonia as such. If that changed to a compromise with sense ..... well .................................

And Greece has compromised!!!! So I dont know what your problem is !!!
 
iliribdl
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:00 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 111):
The province of Macedonia with in Greek borders will always be Greek Macedonia !!!

Help yourself, maybe even change the name from Hellen to Makedonia, or something to that extend. But just leave the country Macedonia, which is outside Greeks borders, leave them alone, they have a right to be called Macedonia, history shows us they were Macedonia just like Greece was Greece (or Hellen)

Quoting OA260 (Reply 111):
Yes its compromising . Greece is not asking them to totally drop the name Macedonia !!!

No its not, when you tell them that they have to include something else in the name. How is that compromising? Again what will the name do to Greeks that its so hurtful that the government spends so much time trying to make them change it.

I suggest they spend more time fixing the rights for minorities in Greece.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 111):
Well you have alot to learn then. I suggest you read up on it a bit more if you are really that interested. In fact go back to post number 1 and read down . You might learn why it may hurt Greece!!!

I've learned the history, read a lot of books about Greece, always try and read more, I love Greek history, and actually I try and make a lot of connections between ancient Greeks and Illyrians and then modern Greeks and Albanians, which have lived together for thousands of years, way before anyone else was in Europe.

But still I see no way how Macedonia being called that hurts the Greeks?
delta.com
 
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OA260
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:39 pm



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 114):
How is that compromising?

The Democratic or Independent Republic of Macedonia is acceptable . If they make no claims to Greek Macedonia then why dont they accept it??? Just look again at the bank note produced by a fellow Anetter above !!! Thats alarming !!! Why would a totally separate country have a Greek tower based in Greece's province if Macedonia on it in Thessaloniki if they dont have other motives???

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 114):
But still I see no way how Macedonia being called that hurts the Greeks?

Again read the border and Territorial issues...
 
SBBRTech
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:51 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 115):
Thats alarming !!! Why would a totally separate country have a Greek tower based in Greece's province if Macedonia on it in Thessaloniki if they dont have other motives???

Agreed. Is that legal tender in today's Macedonia? If so, than all the greek talk about future territorial claims by Fyrom suddlenly doesn't sound all that paranoid.
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:54 pm



Quoting SBBRTech (Reply 116):
Agreed. Is that legal tender in today's Macedonia? If so, than all the greek talk about future territorial claims by Fyrom suddlenly doesn't sound all that paranoid.

I actually have to say I was shocked at that and had never seen it before. After talking to my friends they said ''didnt you see that before??''. I was alarmed before but now im really worried !!!!
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:37 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 113):
He referred to the COUNTRY with the name Macedonia, and not to a province somewhere
Are you his spokes person now???

No, I just found your jumping on his statement a bit strange

Quoting OA260 (Reply 113):
well, not too long ago, Greece made a lot of fuss exactly about the name Macedonia as such. If that changed to a compromise with sense ..... well .................................
--
And Greece has compromised!!!! So I dont know what your problem is !!!

-
I do not have a problem. We here speak about a political problem between the Republic of Macedonia and the Hellenic Republic. And about demands of the government of the Hellenic Republic to the Republic of Macedonia to amend their official name. And your mentioning of them possibly wanting to claim, at some given time in the future, territories of the Greek province of the name Macedonia. All in all about political peanuts.
 
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OA260
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:54 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 118):
All in all about political peanuts.

Then you do not understand the Greek side a bit more and need to read up on its reasons a bit more before making statements .
 
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PA110
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:03 pm



Quoting SBBRTech (Reply 116):
Agreed. Is that legal tender in today's Macedonia? If so, than all the greek talk about future territorial claims by Fyrom suddlenly doesn't sound all that paranoid.

That note is NOT legal tender in Macedonia. It never has been! It was printed by a local print shop in 1991 as a silly attempt to get the contract to print Macedonia's new national currency, which is actually called the Denar, not the "Makedonka". The Macedonian Denar replaced the old Yugoslav Denar in 1992. Furthermore, the lowest denomination bank note is 10 Denars.

See for yourself: http://www.banknotes.com/mk.htm

However, this image has been seized upon by Greeks as false propaganda to further their paranoid delusions about Macedonia.
Look, it's been swell, but the swelling's gone down.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:32 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 119):
All in all about political peanuts.
--
Then you do not understand the Greek side a bit more and need to read up on its reasons a bit more before making statements .

-
I regard the positions of "the Greek side" as a bit emotional and overdone. To make such a horrific fuss just due to the official name of a neighbouring country. I thought, Greece had some more relevant things to tackle.
 
iliribdl
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:43 pm

^ Yep, like minority rights in Greece. They expect minority rights to be protected in Kosovo while in Greece, a EU country, there are no minority rights whatsoever.

For example, all the Albanians who grew up in Greece, (or moved there while they were young, with families of course), and ended up being athletes, and wanted to represent Greece, had to change their first and last names so they sounded GREEK, so no one would know that they're from another nationality. Talk about racism, discrimination, and hate put into one.
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OA260
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:54 pm



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 122):
For example, all the Albanians who grew up in Greece, (or moved there while they were young, with families of course), and ended up being athletes, and wanted to represent Greece, had to change their first and last names so they sounded GREEK, so no one would know that they're from another nationality. Talk about racism, discrimination, and hate put into one.

Crap !!! Albanians get free health care and pay outs of social welfare from IKA !!! I know that for a fact. They actually get more than many Greeks do .

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 121):
I regard the positions of "the Greek side" as a bit emotional and overdone. To make such a horrific fuss just due to the official name of a neighbouring country. I thought, Greece had some more relevant things to tackle.

Well maybe if you lived in that area you would understand the issues a bit more . You dont seem to understand the true root cause of the worries which are legitimate.

Quoting PA110 (Reply 120):
However, this image has been seized upon by Greeks as false propaganda to further their paranoid delusions about Macedonia.

What makes someone design a bank note with another countries national symbols on and put ''Republic of Macedonia'' on when they know it is not part of FYROM??? There is obviously some weird idea behind it !!!
 
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PA110
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:08 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 123):
What makes someone design a bank note with another countries national symbols on and put ''Republic of Macedonia'' on when they know it is not part of FYROM??? There is obviously some weird idea behind it !!!

Who knows? But in sadly typical greek fashion, you take one individual's actions and ascribe it to the entire nation for no reason other than stirring up unfounded fears!

Quoting OA260 (Reply 123):
You dont seem to understand the true root cause of the worries which are legitimate

What, like fear of reprisal for Greece's treatment of it's own ethnic minorities? I noticed you conveniently sidestepped the issue of Greece forcing all ethnic minorities to "hellenize" their names, and banning any public use of minority languages. This was not a polite suggestion by the part of the Greek government. It was comply or get kicked out! Keep in mind, these are not guest workers we're talking about. These were people who had the misfortune of living on the wrong side of the border that was artificially created following the end of WW2. Not only Albanians, but a huge slavic population was living in and around Salonika (Solun in Macedonian) since the 11th Century. This is the part of Greek history that seems to have disappeared from the history books.
Look, it's been swell, but the swelling's gone down.
 
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OA260
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:53 pm



Quoting PA110 (Reply 124):
But in sadly typical greek fashion, you take one individual's actions and ascribe it to the entire nation for no reason other than stirring up unfounded fears!

Again you dont understand the situation on the ground and around the borders. You seem to forget other provocations and even yesterday the language being used by the FYROM side was offensive and hostile !!!

Quoting PA110 (Reply 124):
Not only Albanians, but a huge slavic population was living in and around Salonika (Solun in Macedonian) since the 11th Century. This is the part of Greek history that seems to have disappeared from the history books.

Well if it was so bad why are there thousands of Albanians living happily in all parts of Greece !! Why you ask ??? Well maybe they are enjoying the economic benefits and good standard of living.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:02 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 123):
For example, all the Albanians who grew up in Greece, (or moved there while they were young, with families of course), and ended up being athletes, and wanted to represent Greece, had to change their first and last names so they sounded GREEK, so no one would know that they're from another nationality. Talk about racism, discrimination, and hate put into one.

Crap !!! Albanians get free health care and pay outs of social welfare from IKA !!! I know that for a fact. They actually get more than many Greeks do .

-
You start to sound Swiss by talking about betther healthcare and social welfare than in the country of origin. But Switzerland does neither force nor encourage name-changes of athletes of foreign origin
-

Quoting OA260 (Reply 123):
to understand the true root cause of the worries which are legitimate

-
Macedonia was a Socialist Republic inside Yugoslavia and when becoming independent, and were no longer socialist dropped the Socialist and became the Republic of Macedonia. The "worries" look rather like opera-stuff than reality, and to describe such a fuss as "legitimate" rather sounds like a bad joke
-

Quoting OA260 (Reply 123):
part of FYROM

your permanent use of this term for MACEDONIA gives the impression as if you had a problem of some sort with the name of MACEDONIA  Wink  Silly
-
 
EL-AL
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:20 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 107):
So, how do you visit Benthlehem? There is a tour agency in Belgrade offering this, so I just wondered. They said that it's pretty safe

Israelis can not enter Palestinian Authority area, you can do that because you have a Serbian passport.
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PA110
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:32 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 125):
Well if it was so bad why are there thousands of Albanians living happily in all parts of Greece !! Why you ask ??? Well maybe they are enjoying the economic benefits and good standard of living.

Geez, you're unbelievable! Again, you're trying to dodge and confuse the issue. The issue was Greece's treatment of ITS OWN ethnic minorities, not guest workers who are citizens of another country. We're not talking about Albanian citizens who were born and raised outside Greece (to whom you are so generously referring). We're talking about Greek citizens of Albanian and Macedonian ancestry who were, under penalty of arrest, forced to hellenize their names and forbidden to use their native language in public.

You refuse to recognize your own country's culpability on this issue. It is this fear of having to face the facts which is driving Greece's childish behavior on the Macedonian name issue.
Look, it's been swell, but the swelling's gone down.
 
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OA260
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:32 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 126):
You start to sound Swiss by talking about betther healthcare and social welfare than in the country of origin. But Switzerland does neither force nor encourage name-changes of athletes of foreign origin
-

I'm talking about Greece not Switzerland !! I dont care what they do in Switzerland. Thats your problem.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 126):
The "worries" look rather like opera-stuff than reality, and to describe such a fuss as "legitimate" rather sounds like a bad joke
-

Just like your arguments!!!

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 126):
your permanent use of this term for MACEDONIA gives the impression as if you had a problem of some sort with the name of MACEDONIA

FYROM on EU documents !!!! I'm in the EU and a EU citizen so I will use it until it changes .

Quoting PA110 (Reply 128):
Geez, you're unbelievable! Again, you're trying to dodge and confuse the issue. The issue was Greece's treatment of ITS OWN ethnic minorities, not guest workers who are citizens of another country

There is no real issue . Like I said the EU would do alot more against Greece if it was such a mega problem as you claim it is !!!
 
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:36 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 129):
Like I said the EU would do alot more against Greece if it was such a mega problem as you claim it is !!!

Sweetheart, it must be nice living in a perpetual state of denial.  Cool
Nothing live avoiding the issue by just denying it exists.
Look, it's been swell, but the swelling's gone down.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:01 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 129):
You start to sound Swiss by talking about betther healthcare and social welfare than in the country of origin. But Switzerland does neither force nor encourage name-changes of athletes of foreign origin
-
I'm talking about Greece not Switzerland !! I dont care what they do in Switzerland. Thats your problem.

-
It is NOT a problem in Switzerland

Quoting OA260 (Reply 129):
on EU documents

please in future when talking about the U.K. talk about the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" as THIS is on all documents including passports, and when talking about Switzerland use "Swiss Confederation" and in case of Germany "Federal Republic of Germany" and in case of France, only the "French Republic" is acceptable  Big grin
 
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OA260
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:05 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 131):
please in future when talking about the U.K. talk about the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" as THIS is on all documents including passports, and when talking about Switzerland use "Swiss Confederation" and in case of Germany "Federal Republic of Germany" and in case of France, only the "French Republic" is acceptable

No because they dont have sensitive border disputes  Wink If FYROM is ready to join NATO and EU then they need to act like members. Their language is quite alarming in recent days and very aggressive. Even without the name dispute they dont know how to deal with their soon to be EU / NATO counter parts !!!
 
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PA110
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:19 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 132):
Even without the name dispute they dont know how to deal with their soon to be EU / NATO counter parts !!!

And yet, in all of this - only Greece seems to have a problem with Macedonia. They don't seem to have any problems with the 40+ nations who have already recognized their name as the "Republic of Macedonia", nor do they seem to have any problems with any other surrounding neighbors. It is Greece and only Greece that seems to be so completely and utterly bent out of shape. Perhaps Greece needs to reconsider its position instead of holding Macedonia up to blackmail over their name.
Look, it's been swell, but the swelling's gone down.
 
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OA260
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:40 pm



Quoting PA110 (Reply 133):
And yet, in all of this - only Greece seems to have a problem with Macedonia. They don't seem to have any problems with the 40+ nations who have already recognized their name as the "Republic of Macedonia",

The 40+ other nations dont all live in an un stable region where borders and names can mean serious issues later down the road !!! Define the name and borders now .....save problems in the future !!!
 
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PA110
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:17 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 134):
Define the name and borders now .....save problems in the future !!!

But that's just the thing... the borders ARE defined. The Macedonian government has repeatedly and categorically rejected any claims on land currently occupied by Greece. Greece continues to fan the flames of when no fire exists.

Your posts, such as the following...

Quoting OA260 (Reply 132):
Their language is quite alarming in recent days and very aggressive.

...implies that it is the behavior of the Macedonian government, when in fact it was people protesting the Government's willingness to negotiate and come to some sort of solution. Again, you're fanning the flames where none exist. It is once again misrepresenting the facts, in a pathetic attempt to make Macedonia look like the bad guy, and Greece look like the injured party. It's getting old, and luckily, the rest of the world is starting to realize that Greece is simply crying wolf.
Look, it's been swell, but the swelling's gone down.
 
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OA260
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:30 pm



Quoting PA110 (Reply 135):
But that's just the thing... the borders ARE defined. The Macedonian government has repeatedly and categorically rejected any claims on land currently occupied by Greece. Greece continues to fan the flames of when no fire exists.

They are NOT !! Did you read any of the articles at the start of the thread ???

Quoting PA110 (Reply 135):
...implies that it is the behavior of the Macedonian government, when in fact it was people protesting the Government's willingness to negotiate and come to some sort of solution. Again, you're fanning the flames where none exist. It is once again misrepresenting the facts, in a pathetic attempt to make Macedonia look like the bad guy, and Greece look like the injured party. It's getting old, and luckily, the rest of the world is starting to realize that Greece is simply crying wolf.

If anyone is crying wolf its FYROM!!! They will realise soon that crying wolf will keep them out of the EU and NATO !!! FYROM is playing the injured party not Greece . So what if they have to put DR. Macedonia in front of their name . As stated above people will call it Macedonia anyway but on all legal papers and treaties it will be properly defined as DR Macedonia or whatever its agreed and people will know its not the Greek part of Macedonia.
 
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:44 pm

Rainbow Party of Greece Letter to Mr. Nimetz - February 26, 2008

"Member of the European Free Alliance - European Political Party (E.F.A-E.P.P)
Member of the Federal Union of European Nationalities (F.U.E.N.)
Stefanou Dragoumi 11 Florina /Lerin ?.?. 53100 P.O Box 51 Greece
Tel/fax 0030 23850 46548
Web: www.florina.org
E-mail: [email protected]

26 February 2008

Matthew Nimetz
Special Representative of the Secretary General of the UN
United Nations, New York

Dear Mr Nimetz,

Re: Proposal of 19 February 2008

We write in relation to your latest proposal regarding the so-called "name" dispute between our country, Greece and the neighbouring Republic of Macedonia. Our position on this issue is well known and indeed it has been outlined to you on several occasions over the past few years. Therefore we shall not repeat ourselves here in relation to our basic position on this issue. Rather, we wish to take this opportunity to directly address aspects of your latest proposal, as reported in Greek newspaper To Vima last week. In particular, we feel obligated to comment on Paragraphs 3, 8 and 9 because they are directly connected to our identity, as ethnic Macedonians in Greece and as European citizens we care very much about the stability of the region and want the peaceful co-existence of all peoples (nations) in South Eastern Europe.

II - Paragraph 3 and Annex 1

We wish to comment on two names that you have listed in Annex 1, namely "Republic of Upper Macedonia" and "New Republic of Macedonia".

In relation to "Upper Macedonia", while the Greek government has indicated its willingness to agree to this name (as the Greek media has reported in the last few days), it should be pointed out that this name is inconsistent with its official position. If an "Upper Macedonia" exists then logically there is also a "Lower Macedonia." Therefore having this in mind, how can the Greek government argue, among other things, that the name "Republic of Macedonia" has irredentist claims on northern Greece, but the name "Upper Macedonia" would not? It is clear that a name such as "Upper Macedonia" could encourage irredentism on BOTH sides, which therefore means that it is problematic.

As for the proposal "New Republic of Macedonia", we must stress that every adjective related to the national-ethnic character of the state and its population directly or indirectly rejects ethnic Macedonian identity, both in respect to citizens of the Republic of Macedonia and members of the ethnic Macedonian minority in Greece. If ethnic Greeks who live in the historical territory known as "Macedonia" have the right to a "Greek-Macedonian" cultural identity (even though the majority of them arrived in the area in 1922-1928) then why do ethnic Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia (living also in a part of the historical territory known as "Macedonia") not have the right to the historical and cultural past of the same area? If the prefix "New" is intended to distinguish between modern Macedonia and ancient Macedonia, then logically, the same should also apply to Greece's name i.e. Greece should be called "New Greece" because modern Greece is not the same as ancient Greece. Furthermore, if the prefix "New" has the intention of distinguishing citizens of the Republic of Macedonia from citizens of Greece (ethnic Greeks), it should be mentioned that more than 700,000 orthodox ethnic Greeks were moved from Asia Minor to northern Greece between 1922 and 1928. Therefore a term such as "New Macedonians" might be an appropriate term to use to describe this group and clearly distinguish them from Macedonian citizens in the Republic of Macedonia.

II - Paragraph 9

It is proposed in this paragraph that the use of the term "Macedonian" be restricted to the economic sphere. We find the premise in this paragraph to be inconsistent with democratic principles. To restrict the use of the term "Macedonian" to the economic sphere is to deny the right to self-identification and would effectively mean, inter alia, the prohibition of term "Macedonian" to describe our language. As you would be aware, the denial of the existence of a distinct ethnic Macedonian identity has been the official policy of the Greek state for many decades and as members of the Macedonian minority of Greece, we have and continue to be victims of this deplorable policy. Therefore the proposal to deny the fundamental right to self-identification (the end result of what is proposed in paragraph 9 ) should be reviewed.

We would like to take the opportunity to once again remind you that there are a number of official Greek documents which long before 1945 defined "Macedonian" as something different to "Greek." These include the primer in the Macedonian language, the "Abecedar", printed in 1925 for the Macedonian minority of Greece and the 1920 Greek census document which explicitly notes the existence of the Macedonian language in Greece (both documents have been sent to you previously).

A PROPOSED ADDITION TO THE FINAL AGREEMENT

Having in mind our comments in relation to Section II, Paragraphs 9 of your proposal, we wish to make the following suggestion. A key component of a fair, just and viable solution to this "dispute" will be one which safeguards ethnic and cultural identity. Having this in mind, we strongly encourage the inclusion of two paragraphs in the final agreement along the lines of the following:

"The Greek state recognises the existence of a distinct ethnic Macedonian identity as it is expressed and has developed in the Republic of Macedonia and elsewhere as a separate ethnic identity different from the Greek-Macedonian cultural identity that developed in the Greek state after 1912-1913 when a part of Macedonia was incorporated into the Greek state."

"The Republic of Macedonia recognises the existence of a separate and distinct Greek-Macedonian cultural identity as has developed in the Greek state after 1912-1913."

Therefore, both Parties shall respect the right of self-identification with respect to an individual's ethnic and cultural identity. The use of the prefixes before the word "Macedonian" clearly distinguishes between the two groups (i.e. ethnic Macedonian and Greek-Macedonian). Moreover, both terms are ones of self-identification which is of fundamental importance. No undesired names are being imposed and both identities are not being tampered with. As you will notice in our proposal, no side monopolises the use of the term "Macedonian" (in accordance with Section II, Paragraph 8 of your latest proposal).

Further to Section II, Paragraph 8 of your proposal, it is stated that no Party shall have exclusive rights to the name "Macedonia". If this is to apply to the Republic of Macedonia, then surely it must also apply to Greece. Therefore, as it is proposed that the Republic of Macedonia be further defined by the addition of another prefix, then surely this would also apply need to apply to the Greek administrative regions which also utilise the name "Macedonia". It may be useful then, as well as fair, to suggest that the Regions of West, Central and Eastern Macedonia be further defined through the addition of prefixes or suffixes. The same principle would also apply to names such as the Ministry of Macedonia and Thrace (the name suggests that it is a Ministry for the whole of the historical territory of Macedonia which is inconsistent with Section II, Paragraph 8 ) and also to the international airport in Thessaloniki called "Makedonia" (Macedonia).

Furthermore, it may also be fair and useful to propose some new names for the geographical region of northern Greece, in order to make the distinction between this region and the Republic of Macedonia clearer, just as the Greek side has demanded from the Republic of Macedonia. Some suggestions:

1. Greek Geographical Region of Macedonia
2. Geographical Greek Macedonia
3. Greek Macedonia
4. Greek Historical Macedonia
5. Region of Greek Macedonia

Let us also mention how important it is for peace and stability at this time as well as in the future and in particular when talking about the Macedonian issue, for there to be a recognition of a separate Macedonian identity as it is expressed by citizens of the Republic of Macedonia and the members of the ethnic Macedonian minorities in other Balkan countries (Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, Kosovo). This is a very important point when taking into consideration that the denial of a Macedonian ethnic identity and the right of self-determination of the Macedonian people pushed the stronger Balkan states (Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia) in to a bloody conflict during the Balkan wars of 1912-1913. In other words, from our perspective the crucial issue on this so-called "name issue" is to eliminate any irredentist aspirations from these states by protecting the ethnic and national identity of the Macedonian people in the Republic of Macedonia and elsewhere.

Finally, if the issue of ethnic and cultural identity is to be part of a final agreement, as members of the ethnic Macedonian minority of Greece, we would insist on being consulted in relation to the above. Therefore, we again remain at your disposal for a consultative meeting at your convenience.

Yours sincerely,

PAVLOS FILIPOV VOSKOPOULOS
Member of the Political Secretariat EFA - Rainbow, the Political party of the Macedonian minority in Greece.
Member of the Bureau of the European Free Alliance - European Political Party

CC:
Dora Bakoyannis, Minister for Foreign Affairs, Greece
Antonio Milososki, Minister for Foreign Affairs, Republic of Macedonia
Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of State, United States of America"
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:48 pm

http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/novina...le=102885&NrIssue=593&NrSection=10

Identity more important than NATO

Skopje/Budapest /26/02/ 13:56

Membership in NATO is an event that we hope to take place in the course of this year or some of the following ones. Historically speaking, it is a rather short timeframe, while the identity is something that was built for centuries.

Macedonian Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski said this today, reiterating that Macedonia is not ready to change its name if it is a condition for membership in NATO.

Underscoring that Macedonia has an constructive approach in talks with Greece over the name differences, Gruevski stressed that the "battle for the constitutional name is a battle for preserving of our identity."

"We have done everything we were asked in order to gain fully-fledged membership in NATO. The bilateral name problem with Greece, which is now imposed as a problem of the Alliance, is a precedent that could prove harmful not only for Macedonia and the region, but for the Alliance itself," Gruevski said today in Budapest, after the meeting with the Hungarian PM Ferenc Gyurcsany.

Gyurcsany on his part said that Hungary strongly supports Macedonia's NATO bid as well as acquiring a date for start of accession negotiations with EU.

"Hungary believes Macedonia is ready for NATO and would like to see the country, along with the other Adriatic Charter members, as a fully-fledged member of the Alliance," he said.

Hungarian PM said that by accomplishing the reforms, Macedonia met the basic requirements for receiving a date for start of negotiations with EU, the reporter of the Macedonian Television said.

"Macedonia is walking the same path as Hungary had. It's a tough one, but it's important to have a political will and consistent implementation of reforms," Hungarian PM Ferenc Gyurcsany said after the meeting with his Macedonian counterpart Nikola Gruevski.


It looks like Macedonia will not change it's name even if it delays NATO membership.
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:19 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 136):
They are NOT !! Did you read any of the articles at the start of the thread ???

OK, you want to continue playing this game, let's play. Let's take those articles one by one.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 30):
But if you really want to learn something here are a few websites for you to educate yourself as Im sure you read the other link above before you jumped in . Yeah sure
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...donia

The article you site is from Wikipedia (your first mistake). It references sources that no longer exist (your second mistake). The very opening text of the article refers to "an irredentist concept of Macedonian ethnic nationalism " Hardly an unbiased author.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 42):
This is what the FYROM school books contain ::::
http://history-of-macedonia.com/word...istory-books-and-propaganda-facts/

Your next citation is from history-of-macedonia.com which is nothing other than a greek blogspot where, similar to wikipedia, anyone can spout anything they like. The difference here is that the sole aim of this website is to discredit anything and everything to do with the Republic of Macedonia.

Don't let facts get in the way doll, you're on a roll...

Quoting OA260 (Reply 42):
It is evident that the maps of various school books demonstrate in a subtle, but clear manner that The FYROM Slavs do not recognize Hellenic sovereignty over the Greek part of Macedonia, Macedonia Proper; this is the reason they insist on calling it Aegean Macedonia and not Greek or Hellenic Macedonia. It also violates the Interim Agreement signed by both Greece and The FYROM and the Constitution of The FYROM itself -- amendment replacing and clarifying article 49 of the said Constitution. The dream and the goal of The FYROM Slavs are the incorporation of the Hellenic part of Macedonia into their newly independent country with the city of Thessaloniki as the first prize.

http://www.panmacedonian.info/FYROM%...s.htm

This is where you really run off the rails. Quoting a website of a Greek-American "Macedonian" Association who is also dedicated to opposing anything and everything to do with the Republic of Macedonia - including a reprint of that infamous "1 Makedonka" banknote that never existed, yet according to this site: "was intended for circulation but was withheld because of objections from Greece" - which we've already established is a complete misrepresentation of the truth.

It would seem the harder you try, the more you expose just how pathetic Greece's claims against Macedonia are. It's really sad. Anyone else would be embarrassed by now.
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:21 am

http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/activities/speech.html

''We are concerned about the sale of the Macedonian strategic plants to our traditional enemies, who still have the goal of destroying us.

There is an old saying: “Beware of the Greek who bears gifts”. But, that Greek with gifts has already entered Macedonia. In this hall, Mr. President, good part from the attendees are from the Aegean part of Macedonia, which is still occupied by Greece, and they can best explain to you how much trust we can have on Greece.''

----------------------------------------------------
 
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:27 am



Quoting PA110 (Reply 139):
OK, you want to continue playing this game, let's play. Let's take those articles one by one.

No you may think its a game but for alot of people its about future peace and stability .....

Quoting PA110 (Reply 139):
Your next citation is from history-of-macedonia.com which is nothing other than a greek blogspot where

Well you would say that as your biased towards FYROM!!!!

Quoting PA110 (Reply 139):
It would seem the harder you try, the more you expose just how pathetic Greece's claims against Macedonia are. It's really sad. Anyone else would be embarrassed by now.

Its really sad that you have a anti Greek agenda . Its really showing and it stinks !!!
 
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:36 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 140):
http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/activities/speech.html

''We are concerned about the sale of the Macedonian strategic plants to our traditional enemies, who still have the goal of destroying us.

Oh Geez, here you go again! You seem to have a passion for quoting only the most highly biased sources possible... first Greek, now a bunch of hotheads that belong to a Macedonian cultural heritage association in Canada.

None of these sources quoted even come close to representing the official position of the Government of Macedonia. Instead, most of the sources you've chosen to quote have done their utmost to misrepresent the situation - on both sides!

The Macedonian government has worked very diligently despite both external and internal pressure, to bring stability to a region known for instability. Stop fanning the fires with irrational nonsense.
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:39 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 141):
Well you would say that as your biased towards FYROM!!!!
I'm sorry, who?

Quoting OA260 (Reply 141):
Its really sad that you have a anti Greek agenda .

Quite the contrary. I like Greece, and the Greek people. I find them a warm, friendly and passionate people. My issue is with the behavior of the Greek government and its handling of ethnic minorities, and Macedonia's post-Yugoslav independence. Greece's behavior has been a bit shameful and embarrassing. So much so, that it is already starting to lose the support of some within the EU who have openly criticized Greece's over-aggressive handling of the name issue.

[Edited 2008-02-29 16:45:38]
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:46 am



Quoting PA110 (Reply 142):
Oh Geez, here you go again! You seem to have a passion for quoting only the most highly biased sources possible... first Greek, now a bunch of hotheads that belong to a Macedonian cultural heritage association in Canada.

None of these sources quoted even come close to representing the official position of the Government of Macedonia. Instead, most of the sources you've chosen to quote have done their utmost to misrepresent the situation - on both sides!

The Macedonian government has worked very diligently despite both external and internal pressure, to bring stability to a region known for instability. Stop fanning the fires with irrational nonsense.

Seems like you will keep your biased anti Greek stance and not even try to see it from the Greek point of view so your posts are worthless !!! You walk the walk and talk the talk but its BS I'm afraid !!!

I have stated on many times that for the sake of easing legitimate fears of the Greek nation that FYROM should adopt a name which includes Macedonia but clearly defines them from the rest of Macedonia. It seems to fall on deaf ears though. As stated before no one has the right to solely claim the name Macedonia!!! There are still alot of hot headed people in FYROM. Another funny thing is when they attack the USA embassy in Serbia then its a total disgrace and condemned. When they attack the Greek embassy in Skopje ......SILENCE !!!

When will your country recognise Taiwan to the UN ??? Oh I forgot too much $$$$ in China !!!!

I really dont understand your foreign policy and double standards !!!!
 
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:55 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 144):
Another funny thing is when they attack the USA embassy in Serbia then its a total disgrace and condemned. When they attack the Greek embassy in Skopje ......SILENCE !!!

Oh sweetheart, you really have to lay off the ouzo... You're trying to compare a crowd burning the US Embassy in Belgrade (with the complicity of the local Police) to a bunch of kids throwing rocks? Unlike the situation in Belgrade, Macedonian police dispersed the trouble makers immediately, and if I'm not correct, the government issued apologies to Greek diplomatic representatives.

[Edited 2008-02-29 16:56:32]
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:06 am



Quoting PA110 (Reply 145):
and if I'm not correct, the government issued apologies to Greek diplomatic representatives.

Oh really where did you see that then???

Quoting PA110 (Reply 17):
Oddly enough, the folks in the Republic of Macedonia refer to the Greek Macedonian province as "Aegean Macedonia"

To quote your earlier post !!! Yes it is very odd isnt it ??? They claim Agean Macedonia as occupied ''Macedonian'' land and they have aspirations to get it back. That is also the views of some in the current FYROM government although they have been told to shut their mouths as its diplomatically taboo at the moment and would raise Greece's case!! There were two websites by two leading politicians in the FYROM government which have ''recently'' disappeared !!! Funny that .....

Go have your Milk and Oreo cookies and leave the foreign policy to people that know the REAL deal on the ground.  Wink
 
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:22 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 146):
To quote your earlier post !!! Yes it is very odd isnt it ??? They claim Agean Macedonia as occupied ''Macedonian'' land and they have aspirations to get it back. That is also the views of some in the current FYROM government although they have been told to shut their mouths as its diplomatically taboo at the moment and would raise Greece's case!! There were two websites by two leading politicians in the FYROM government which have ''recently'' disappeared !!! Funny that .....

Fair enough. It is very true that some refer to the northern Greek province as Aegean Macedonia, just as they refer to a small western piece of Bulgaria as Pirin Macedonia, however it is simply a reference to the geographic territory once occupied by ethnic Macedonian slavs. Quite honestly, the overwhelming majority of ordinary Macedonian citizens would happily trade any and all claims of a "greater" Macedonia for peace, stability and entry into the EU. It is only a very vocal minority that still tir up trouble.

It is also very true that some in the current Macedonian government are from the more radical nationalist parties. But, they are in the minority and know that they cannot speak officially on behalf of the entire government. Luckily, the average ordinary citizen in Macedonia doesn't put too much trust in these buffoons (which is why they only hold a minority in Parliament). They're not likely to ever see access to greater power - unless Macedonia gets backed into a corner where these nationalist can take advantage of others fanning the flames on their behalf. That's why I cautioned quoting inflammatory sources.

Macedonians feel that they have already given up any claims to territories once occupied by ethnic Macedonian slavs, the only thing they want to hold onto is their name. It's just a shame that Greece can't seem to bring itself to realize this, but instead allows itself to get wound up by the extremists on both sides. It's clear we're not going to settle the question, so let's just call it a day and leave the final resolution to the diplomats, shall we?  kiss 
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:51 am

Quoting PA110 (Reply 147):
It's just a shame that Greece can't seem to bring itself to realize this,
But when you see whats going on in other Balkan nations and supported by the EU/USA and NATO then its no wonder Greece is very un easy . Apparently borders and claims and carving up countries is ok as long as its not on America's back door!!

But I agree no point getting too heated about it. It will be sorted anyway soon enough. If FYROM dont want to join the EU and NATO as in the above article then thats their choice. I dont know why they are worried about their identity. They will loose that when they join the EU!!  Big grin

[Edited 2008-03-01 00:53:57]
 
IFlyTWA
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RE: Macedonia: Time To Pick A New Name

Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:13 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 148):
Apparently borders and claims and carving up countries is ok as long as its not on America's back door!!

Like how Macedonia was carved up in 1913?

[Edited 2008-03-01 01:16:46]
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