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Derico
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Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:46 pm

Colombia has engaged in an attack which killed a guerillla rebel, but the attack is supposed to have violated Ecuadorian territory.

This has prompted a severe response from Ecuador, and tensions are high between this country and Colombia.

Venezuela (Chavez), wasted no time in saying that Colombia 'should not even think of daring', trying something like that in Venezuelan territory. 'Not even dare'.

Nicaragua and Cuba have come out saying they will immediately render assistance if any of their 'allies' are attacked. Nicaraguan president Ortega said that 'the chances of peace have died with this attack'.

Brazil is now warning that any threats to it's interest in the Amazon Basin will be dealt with 'with any necessary means', and also has yet again increased tensions with Venezuela. Bolivia says anyone engaging in upsetting regional balance will not be supported by their government (i.e cutting gas exports to Brazil).

Peru and Chile meanwhile continue their increasing tensions over maritime borders, Argentina and Uruguay still have some tensions over the pulpmills, but this situation unlike the others mentioned have no real chance of turning into a more serious bilateral incident.

Meanwhile the arms race continues with all countries in the region, but Argentina really, going on military shopping sprees.
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RJdxer
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:15 am

I guess life is good in Paraguay then eh?
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AR385
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:43 am

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
Colombia has engaged in an attack which killed a guerillla rebel, but the attack is supposed to have violated Ecuadorian territory.

It did. the attack was held 2km inside Ecuadoran territory

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
This has prompted a severe response from Ecuador, and tensions are high between this country and Colombia.

Understandably so. If I were Ecuador, I would be extremely pissed. But the other issue is not the actual incursion in their territory, but the fact Uribe misled Correa when he phoned him about the imminent attack.

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
Venezuela (Chavez), wasted no time in saying that Colombia 'should not even think of daring', trying something like that in Venezuelan territory. 'Not even dare'.

Drawing parallels from the Malvinas war (a Simian dictator, a totalitarian government in its death throes, economic meltdown, international isolation) then I think Chavez is thinking like Galtieri, the drunk, thought at the time. A war with Colombia will have the same effect as war with the UK had on the Argentine population, which was suddenly throwing themselves in support of the government. So I believe a Colombia-Venezuela war is a likely scenario.

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
Nicaragua and Cuba have come out saying they will immediately render assistance if any of their 'allies' are attacked. Nicaraguan president Ortega said that 'the chances of peace have died with this attack'.

Rhetoric. What assistance can Nicaragua and Cuba actually provide? Neither economic nor military. They can't even assist themselves.

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
Brazil is now warning that any threats to it's interest in the Amazon Basin will be dealt with 'with any necessary means', and also has yet again increased tensions with Venezuela. Bolivia says anyone engaging in upsetting regional balance will not be supported by their government (i.e cutting gas exports to Brazil).

Brazil is a democratic government, with solid institutions. I imagine they will excersise great restraint if some idiot from the North (read Chavez) tries some stunt.

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
Peru and Chile meanwhile continue their increasing tensions over maritime borders, Argentina and Uruguay still have some tensions over the pulpmills, but this situation unlike the others mentioned have no real chance of turning into a more serious bilateral incident.

They've been at it for at least 130 years. No news there.

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
Meanwhile the arms race continues with all countries in the region, but Argentina really, going on military shopping sprees.

True. But most of this race is about replacing aging equipment with more modern types. It's not an expansionist race. Argentina is also upgrading their equipment, an example is what they are doing with the IA-63 now called the PAMPA II

[Edited 2008-03-02 16:47:23]

[Edited 2008-03-02 16:49:25]
 
halls120
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:49 am



Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
This has prompted a severe response from Ecuador, and tensions are high between this country and Colombia.

They have been high for a long time. Colombian efforts to engage the FARC have pushed the FARC into Ecuador.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 2):
Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
This has prompted a severe response from Ecuador, and tensions are high between this country and Colombia.

Understandably so. If I were Ecuador, I would be extremely pissed. But the other issue is not the actual incursion in their territory, but the fact Uribe misled Correa when he phoned him about the imminent attack.

Too bad. Ecuador has no control of its northern border territory. The FARC operate with impunity from Ecuador. Colombia has been pushing Ecuador to take action against the FARC, and they refuse to do so, so Colombia did what it had to do.

To be fair to Ecuador, they don't have the capacity to engage the FARC, but their outrage is mostly show.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:09 am



Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
Colombia has engaged in an attack which killed a guerillla rebel, but the attack is supposed to have violated Ecuadorian territory.

Nothing new, this has happened in the past as well. The difference is that Correa is a Chavista and thinks the FARC are A-OK vs the previous thirty or so Presidents du jour.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 3):
Too bad. Ecuador has no control of its northern border territory. The FARC operate with impunity from Ecuador.

Absolutely true. When I lived there, it was well known that you had to be very careful if you went North of Imbaburra into Carchi particularly when you are very close to the border. Tulcan is supposed to be very nice though.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 3):
To be fair to Ecuador, they don't have the capacity to engage the FARC, but their outrage is mostly show.

The biggest problem for the Ecuadoran military is their method of funding. As it was explained to me, they get a fixed percentage(very large) of oil revenues to fund their operations. Things were great 25-30 years back with this. Unfortunately, when oil prices dropped, PetroEcuador no longer had a sufficent revenue stream to fund everything needed, i.e. operations, maintenance, exploration, etc. Not a big deal short term, but by the late 90s, they were an importer of oil and weren't even able to refine their own domestic production. It also put a huge ding on military funding made worse by the damage they took in the war with Peru.

I think it's also safe to say that given their limited resources and past history, their first priority is definitely the Peruvian border
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halls120
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:18 am



Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 4):
I think it's also safe to say that given their limited resources and past history, their first priority is definitely the Peruvian border

That is absolutely correct. I was in Ecuador last fall meeting with elements of the Ecuadorian government, and Peru is definitely their bigger concern.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:24 am



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 5):
That is absolutely correct. I was in Ecuador last fall meeting with elements of the Ecuadorian government, and Peru is definitely their bigger concern.

Were you there with a group?
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Avianca
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:36 am



Quoting AR385 (Reply 2):
Rhetoric. What assistance can Nicaragua and Cuba actually provide? Neither economic nor military. They can't even assist themselves.

yes, its a joke... + both countrys are close to the US ...

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 3):
Too bad. Ecuador has no control of its northern border territory. The FARC operate with impunity from Ecuador. Colombia has been pushing Ecuador to take action against the FARC, and they refuse to do so, so Colombia did what it had to do.

couldnt agree more !!
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andessmf
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:36 am



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 5):
I was in Ecuador last fall meeting with elements of the Ecuadorian government, and Peru is definitely their bigger concern.

Huh? Is this now some new shit? I mean, last I knew, the dispute was resolved but a few years ago.

Is this Correa's attempt to stir up some more crap?
 
halls120
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:42 am



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 5):
That is absolutely correct. I was in Ecuador last fall meeting with elements of the Ecuadorian government, and Peru is definitely their bigger concern.

Were you there with a group?

Small group last visit, larger group the visit before that.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 8):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 5):
I was in Ecuador last fall meeting with elements of the Ecuadorian government, and Peru is definitely their bigger concern.

Huh? Is this now some new shit? I mean, last I knew, the dispute was resolved but a few years ago.

Is this Correa's attempt to stir up some more crap?

I have no idea. Two years ago, the Ecuadorians I know were very agitated about what was going on with regard to their border with Colombia.

As of last fall, that had changed. Their maritime focus had moved south. The Ecuadorian and Colombian Navies have actually developed a fairly amicable working relationship.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:56 am



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 8):
Huh? Is this now some new shit? I mean, last I knew, the dispute was resolved but a few years ago.

Yes, but most of the military leadership in Ecuador has spent time in a real shooting war with Peruvians shooting at them. This and the large amount of territory lost to Peru definitely put their focus South and East rather than North.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 8):
Is this Correa's attempt to stir up some more crap?

What isn't?
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a380us
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:09 am

It's more of a Latin war.
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Derico
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:26 am



Quoting AR385 (Reply 2):
Argentina is also upgrading their equipment, an example is what they are doing with the IA-63 now called the PAMPA

It's a drop in the bucket, Argentina's military was for a long time the strongest in Latin America, now it's probably level with Peru, and certainly behind Chile, Brazil, Colombia, Venezuela and possibly Mexico. That's a massive drop.

That said, I don't mind (except the embarrassment about not having radars in the north or even EZE sometimes), that's unnaceptable. But beyond what is necesarry and needed, there is no need for a huge military right now. We have no border disputes with our neighbors, I think the only country in Latin America that has 100% bilaterally agreed borders.

I don't mind renewed R&D research. Argentina had quite an advanced one, and it let it slide terribly. It's good that in some areas research is being restarted (most notably nuclear).
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Falcon84
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:30 am



Quoting AR385 (Reply 2):
Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
Colombia has engaged in an attack which killed a guerillla rebel, but the attack is supposed to have violated Ecuadorian territory.

It did. the attack was held 2km inside Ecuadoran territory

As is said below, if Ecuador can't control the FARC, then Columbia has a right to protect itself from attack-just as Israel does from Hamas. It can be easily seen as justifiable.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 2):
Understandably so. If I were Ecuador, I would be extremely pissed. But the other issue is not the actual incursion in their territory, but the fact Uribe misled Correa when he phoned him about the imminent attack.

So Uribe says. But he's a blowhard just like Chavez, and I wouldn't be surprised if Uribe knew about it, and is now feigning this "outrage" even though he knows he was informed.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 2):
Chavez is thinking like Galtieri, the drunk, thought at the time. A war with Colombia will have the same effect as war with the UK had on the Argentine population, which was suddenly throwing themselves in support of the government.

And how did that one end up? With Galtieri's military thoroughly humiliated and embarrassed, save for the sinking of the HMS Sheffield, and eventually he paid the price for his lack of vision. If the same happens to Chavez, more's the better for the entire Hemisphere.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 3):
Too bad. Ecuador has no control of its northern border territory. The FARC operate with impunity from Ecuador.

Which is why Columbia has every right to protect itself.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 8):
Is this Correa's attempt to stir up some more crap?

Or course it is. He's Chavez's Mini Me. And, if Cuba is stupid enough to try to render any aid to Ecuador or Venezuela, then I take back my stance on beginning to lift the sanctions on them. In fact, if this breaks out, Ecuador, Venezuela, Nicaragua and Cuba will find the economic screws turned on them even harder.

Right now, I think this will all blow over-the most that will happen is a few border skirmishes, and more hot air. But if tensions get worse, and fighting does look imminent, you can bet the U.S., Mexico and Canada will have to get involved in some form, either as peace brokers, peace keepers, or actively, in some form, no the side of it's allies, being Brazil and Columbia.

Unfortunately, and I hate to say it, the U.S. doesn't currently have a president who has a good enough reputation to bring the parties together to try and solve their difference at a conference table. That only exacerbates the situation right now.
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RJdxer
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:34 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Unfortunately, and I hate to say it, the U.S. doesn't currently have a president who has a good enough reputation to bring the parties together to try and solve their difference at a conference table. That only exacerbates the situation right now.

With statements like,

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080303...;_ylt=AgTgHEfxnP1efvJkYp9YphC9IxIF

"We don't want war," said Chavez, "but we won't let the Empire or its lap dog President Uribe try to make us weaker."
The Empire is Chavez's standard reference to the United States."

"The United States, which has been backing Colombia in its decades-long fight against leftist guerrillas, said it was monitoring the situation in South America."


http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/...N/933500764/1001&template=nextpage

"Someday Colombia will be freed from the hand of the [U.S.] empire," Mr. Chavez said. "We have to liberate Colombia."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080303/...;_ylt=AtLxDTpD5H6_JlpNhAWvvduROrgF
" "We don't want war, but we aren't going to permit the U.S. empire, which is the master (of Colombia) ... to come divide us."
But the real story lies in this inaction...

"However, Isacson said, the countries share robust trade, the militaries "are not enthusiastic" and the populations of the neighbors "are hardly consumed by war fever."

So with statements like those, along with the other anti U.S. rhetoric the Venezuelan President is known for, and the fact the United States has been backing the Colombian government for decades which would precede this Adminstration, how would any U.S. President have any traction with this idiot? But I understand you had to get your dig in where you could, it's the Falcon way.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
In fact, if this breaks out, Ecuador, Venezuela, Nicaragua and Cuba will find the economic screws turned on them even harder.

What economic screws on Nicaragua and Ecuador?
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Falcon84
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:26 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 20):
So with statements like those, along with the other anti U.S. rhetoric the Venezuelan President is known for, and the fact the United States has been backing the Colombian government for decades which would precede this Adminstration, how would any U.S. President have any traction with this idiot? But I understand you had to get your dig in where you could, it's the Falcon way.

I agree with you, and you may think it a dig, but I see it as a unfortunate circumstance, nothing more, RJ. If we did have a president that had a little more respect, he might be able to accomplish something-at least arrange a neutral-site set of talks. But we're not in a position to do so-and you're right, that guys like Chavez and Uribe just want to piss in the pot and then stir the shit. But it would be nice if we had a president who could influence events just a bit.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:54 pm



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 9):
Small group last visit, larger group the visit before that.

What *kind* of group? I know someone involved in a business/defense group that was in Peru/Ecuador last year chatting with various military and government folks. I think it's called DOCA....just curious if it was the same one.
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AM744
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:14 pm

Great. We should be working towards a unified Latin America (in all regards: monetary, political, military) to survive in a globalized world, and now this...  Yeah sure
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:31 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 14):
" "We don't want war, but we aren't going to permit the U.S. empire, which is the master (of Colombia) ... to come divide us."

Sounds like Chavez is the only one that actually does want a war.
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Southamerica
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:54 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Which is why Columbia has every right to protect itself.

Not only that, but Colombia has tried to inform Ecuador that there are multiple guerrilla groups settled on their territory since 2002, with little to no action taken by the Ecuadorean government. In this case, Colombia acted in legitimate defense against a terrorist group, and this attack serves to show the FARC that not even the jungle near the borders are as safe as they thought.



For those of you who may not know...

The Colombian military retrieved three laptops from the area where the terrorist leader Raul Reyes got killed. He was the man in charge of most of the political planning for FARC.

Last night, after Ecuador President Rafael Correa responded that he would send troops to the border, and that he would immediately expel the Colombian ambassador from Quito, the Colombian government decided to reveal a preliminary report of all the documents found in Reyes' laptops.

It shows that there was indeed an established relationship between the Government of Ecuador and the FARC terrorists. The report reveals that Ecuador's Minister of Defense himself contacted the FARC terrorists, and offered them secure transportation from the border area to Quito, in order to hold a formal meeting with President Rafael Correa, who seemed interested to negotiate directly with FARC. As a gesture of gratitude, FARC offered to free one of the hostages to President Rafael Correa (just like they've done recently with Chavez) in order to " make Correa's political role more dynamic".




These announcements have scandalized the entire country, and have taken this whole crisis to historic level. A legitimate goverment, in this case, Ecuador's, is directly supporting the cause of a terrorist group which has hurt us, Colombian people, for over 40 years.

I frankly can't wait to see what the Ecuadorean government has to say about this, and how will this situation evolve.


SA.
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:58 pm

I really hope Peace remains in South America , I've lived all my Childhood there it would be very sad to see that beautiful continent to sink into war .

Que viva la paz !

Constantin
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Derico
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:02 pm

While in Ecuador and Colombia opposition parties have generally rallied around their respective presidents, the opposition of Venezuela (Manuel Rosales), has just come out calling Chavez's actions 'treason against the motherland', to place Venezuela in toe-steps of war.
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Avianca
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:13 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 20):
I really hope Peace remains in South America , I've lived all my Childhood there it would be very sad to see that beautiful continent to sink into war .

Que viva la paz !

Constantin

so empfazize your friend HUGO...
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
andessmf
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:16 pm



Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 19):
It shows that there was indeed an established relationship between the Government of Ecuador and the FARC terrorists.

Don't you mean the 'insurgents'.  sarcastic 

Shows how stupid Chavez is that he wants to directly associate with a known Marxist group, and of course the FARCs involvement in the cocaine trade (their $$ lifeline) is also not in disputer.

And so far, the Ecuadorian government is responding as expected to these accusations.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:16 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 20):
I've lived all my Childhood there it would be very sad to see that beautiful continent to sink into war .

This is nothing new though, is it? It's always been *something* somewhere in Latin America, and in fact it's probably one of the more peaceful, prosperous periods in the continent's history. And it's not like Chavez/Correa/Ortega/Morales are new concepts. Their populism has been tried in just about every country in Latin America several times, all with the same results.
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halls120
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:20 pm



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 9):
Small group last visit, larger group the visit before that.

What *kind* of group? I know someone involved in a business/defense group that was in Peru/Ecuador last year chatting with various military and government folks. I think it's called DOCA....just curious if it was the same one.

Nope. If I told you why I was there......  biggrin 

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 19):
It shows that there was indeed an established relationship between the Government of Ecuador and the FARC terrorists. The report reveals that Ecuador's Minister of Defense himself contacted the FARC terrorists, and offered them secure transportation from the border area to Quito, in order to hold a formal meeting with President Rafael Correa, who seemed interested to negotiate directly with FARC. As a gesture of gratitude, FARC offered to free one of the hostages to President Rafael Correa (just like they've done recently with Chavez) in order to " make Correa's political role more dynamic".

An incredibly serious development. This confirms reports I've seen that speak to the same issue.

Kudos to the Colombian government and Colombian people for standing up to the criminal FARC organization, and to their neighbors who are apparently providing these criminals with safe haven.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
slider
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:25 pm

At least Canada's not getting chippy with the US.

 Smile
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:25 pm



Quoting Avianca (Reply 22):
Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 20):
I really hope Peace remains in South America , I've lived all my Childhood there it would be very sad to see that beautiful continent to sink into war .

Que viva la paz !

Constantin

so empfazize your friend HUGO...

Chavez or not ... I'm completely against war .. and if Chavez starts a war I'll condemn it as hard as I would if Uribe would start it .
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Falcon84
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:35 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 27):
Chavez or not ...

One problem with that statement: Chavez is THE PROBLEM in the Southern part of this hemisphere right now. He backs idiots like Correa, and terrorists like FARC. He is a natural-born destabalizer. He wants such crap going on, as a means to rally people to his government, when clearly, many can't stand it. It's right of the Leopold Galtieri playbook, and if he opens that playbook any further, he may end up like Galtieri.

Colombia has every right to defend itself from attack. If Ecuador won't or can't control what's going on from inside it's territory, then they have nothing to bitch about. And if I were Colombia, I'd tell Chavez to keep the fuck out of business that is none of his, or he will get a bloody nose.

I'd like to see all parties negotiate a settlement to all this sabre-rattling, but you do need sabre-rattling behind the diplomacy, and Colombia should let both of those nations know to either help stop FARC from causing Colombia grief, or Colombia will do it for them.
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:40 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 28):
One problem with that statement: Chavez is THE PROBLEM in the Southern part of this hemisphere right now. He backs idiots like Correa, and terrorists like FARC. He is a natural-born destabalizer. He wants such crap going on, as a means to rally people to his government, when clearly, many can't stand it. It's right of the Leopold Galtieri playbook, and if he opens that playbook any further, he may end up like Galtieri.

Colombia has every right to defend itself from attack. If Ecuador won't or can't control what's going on from inside it's territory, then they have nothing to bitch about. And if I were Colombia, I'd tell Chavez to keep the fuck out of business that is none of his, or he will get a bloody nose.

I'd like to see all parties negotiate a settlement to all this sabre-rattling, but you do need sabre-rattling behind the diplomacy, and Colombia should let both of those nations know to either help stop FARC from causing Colombia grief, or Colombia will do it for them.

well everybody has a different way to see this .. I just say that I will condemn every war .
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halls120
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:51 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 29):
well everybody has a different way to see this .. I just say that I will condemn every war .

Can we take it then, that you condemn the war being fought against the Colombian people by the FARC?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:53 pm



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 30):
Can we take it then, that you condemn the war being fought against the Colombian people by the FARC?

I highly condemn the FARC . The FARC are a band of murders .


Constantin
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SBBRTech
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:35 pm



Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
(i.e cutting gas exports to Brazil).

Call it a bad move. It's just a question of time until Petrobras starts pumping natural gas from brazilian deposits, they already prospected several regions....too bad for Morales, who could have gained much more from this battle of prices (that's what it was all about, not that anti-empire crap rhetoric) but he decided to play the role of "mini-Chaves"....now the joke is on them.



And people get angry when they call us the Banana Continent....for f*cks sake, someone get rid of Mr. Chaves once and for all (hello, CIA, what about digging another black ops ?). As soon as the polls started to show that Venezuelans are getting even more fed up with him by the minute - there he goes throwing more crap in the fan.
The guy has no imagination. How old is this trick of stirring international turmoil in order to blur the real national crisis they got over there?
"I'm beginning to get the hang of this flying business" - C3PO
 
andessmf
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:53 pm

I guess since Chavez lost his referendum, he had to start trouble in other places.

And just as an aside, speaking again of the FARC, whether they could be called insurgents or terrorists is somewhat besides the point. THEY are highly responsible and benefit immensely from the cocaine trade. IIRC, the drug trade is their ONLY means of income. Right now they are a criminal enterprise first, and a leftist revolution last.

Never in the latest history of LatAm, has a legitimate government (Chavez) expressed such overt support for a criminal enterprise. No one here would believe that if the FARC gets its way they would drop their cocaine trade, right?
 
Southamerica
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Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:56 am

RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:54 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 28):
And if I were Colombia, I'd tell Chavez to keep the fuck out of business that is none of his, or he will get a bloody nose.

Actually, I feel very proud of the prudent attitude the Colombian government has taken upon all the cynic, uneducated and plain vulgar things Chavez has said against our President these past months. Provocation won't work this time for him.



Right now on national TV news, the government is revealing more information about what was found in the laptops retrieved from the FARC settlement where Raul Reyes got killed. They just revealed that there is evidence that Chavez has directly financed the FARC guerrillas; giving them the amount of 300 million dollars in total. There is also evidence in these documents that they were trafficking with uranium. There are even photographs of people who personally visited the camp in Ecuador where Raul Reyes was settled, and where he got killed last Friday by the Colombian military.


The Colombian government has contacted the Organization of American States and the United Nations so they can testify the authenticity of these documents.


SA.

[Edited 2008-03-03 11:15:11]
 
Southamerica
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:02 pm



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 33):
IIRC, the drug trade is their ONLY means of income.

Apart from drug trade, you are forgetting two of the basic activities for which they are called TERRORISTS. Kidnap and extortion, though much less than what they used to be, are still important means of income for them.


SA.
 
andessmf
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:04 pm



Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 35):

Is the FARC even really fighting for their stated aims, or are they fighting now for the same reasons other criminal enterprises fight?
 
Dougloid
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:14 pm

Has anyone yet thought about blaming the Gringos for this contretemps? There's some real mileage there.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Southamerica
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:40 pm



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 36):
Is the FARC even really fighting for their stated aims, or are they fighting now for the same reasons other criminal enterprises fight?

The political goals of FARC are long gone. Their ideology went down the drain many, many years ago, the moment they decided to transform a valid political fight into a narco-war. And it's sad, really, because they were supposed to represent the mass of people, but the people of Colombia, especially the poorer ones who live in rural areas, have been paradoxically the most damaged in the conflict.

FARC, who claim to be the force of people (or some nonsense like that) now sees an average 1-2% popularity in general polls; they are confined to the deepest jungles of the country and use hostages as human shields to protect themselves and their narco-activities. How sad, especially for some veteran bandits who've been walking in the muddy jungle with FARC for 15-20 years, and who joined when the group actually had some clear political goals. It must be hard to see it the whole project fail so miserably.


SA.
 
andessmf
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:45 pm



Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 38):

And Chavez supports this?!

No, he is not crazy... sarcastic 
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:50 pm



Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 38):
FARC, who claim to be the force of people (or some nonsense like that) now sees an average 1-2% popularity in general polls; they are confined to the deepest jungles of the country and use hostages as human shields to protect themselves and their narco-activities. How sad, especially for some veteran bandits who've been walking in the muddy jungle with FARC for 15-20 years, and who joined when the group actually had some clear political goals. It must be hard to see it the whole project fail so miserably.


SA.

It wouldn't be the first time that a political resistance organisation becomes an ordinary criminal gang. This happened with the Sicilian Mafia (founded hundreds of years ago as a means of self defense of smalltime farmers versus powerfull aristocrats) and the various Catholic and Protestant paramilitaries in Northern Ireland. Today their only goal is to make the police stay out off their neighbourhoods, so that they can carry out their criminal activities (drug smuggling, extortion etc.) without disturbance.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Southamerica
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:02 pm



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 39):
And Chavez supports this?!

He does, because he sees in FARC the only chance of getting over the Colombian goverment, which is a pain in the rear for his expansionist plan, and for his Bolivarian project of an integration of the northern-South America nations.

It would be nice if somebody remembered him to actually look back into his own country first, and try to do something because people in Venezuela is physically in hunger. The lack of basic foods in Venezuela is extremely serious, and he's trying to display all this military operation in the Colombia-Venezuela border just to distract people from the actual problem he has inside: people has nothing to eat.


SA.
 
AM744
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:05 pm



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 37):
Has anyone yet thought about blaming the Gringos for this contretemps? There's some real mileage there.

Well, there would be historical grounds for such suspicion.  Big grin
 
andessmf
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:22 pm

OK, so now it is confirmed that an Ecuadorian security minister DID indeed meet with the FARC, to 'discuss about the hostages'. Why? Who knows, but in sounds fishy to me.

In other related news, Ecuador and Colombia have apparently broken off diplomatic relationships.

Guayaquil, my hometown and the largest city in Ecuador does not like Correa. I expect his ouster soon.
 
Southamerica
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:48 am



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 43):
In other related news, Ecuador and Colombia have apparently broken off diplomatic relationships.

Ecuador and Venezuela have both broken off relationships with Colombia. Both countries have expelled the Colombian ambassador from their respective capital cities, and the embassies have been closed.

Yet, in TV news they show street interviews to the average Venezuelan citizen, and the feeling is that everybody agrees that Chavez is pretty much alone in this crazy quest.

Meanwhile, Uribe's popularity among Colombians today hit its highest point ever since the President is in charge: 90%.


SA.
 
Marcus
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:54 am

There was a 26 year old Mexican woman that was hurt during the attacks in the camp......I was reading in El Tiempo that she is a Philosophy student in Mexico, I wouldn't be surprised if she is a liason for the FARC with other terrorists groups within Mexico.....I also wouldn't be surprised if some idiot politician in Mexico would condemn these attacks.
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
Dougloid
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:22 am



Quoting AM744 (Reply 42):
Well, there would be historical grounds for such suspicion.

You kinda got me there heh heh.

It seemed so....appropriate, though. I am quite sure that Generalissimo Chavez is right now trying to figure out how to put the hat on Uncle.

To the strains of "There's Trouble in Paradise".

calling all angels, calling all angels, calling all angels oo---ou

there's trouble in paradise
my turtle doves changing wings
there's trouble in paradise
the birds no longer sing
some devil told my angel alot of lies
and now my tears are falling
like raindrops from the sky

there's trouble in paradise
the stars no longer shine
there's trouble in paradise
'cause she's no longer mine
that devil told my angel i'd been untrue
won't somebody help me please
tell me me what to do

mr. moon, mr. sun
tell her she's the only one
guide her with your lovely light
back into my arms tonight

there's trouble in paradise
and heaven's not the same
the angels sit and cry
they say it's such a shame
they'd like our love to be just like before
then the trouble in paradise will be no more
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
AR385
Posts: 6936
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:43 am

Quoting Marcus (Reply 45):
There was a 26 year old Mexican woman that was hurt during the attacks in the camp......

She should be hanged. She is a terrorist aiding terrorists. The maximum penalty should apply here.

[Edited 2008-03-03 17:46:44]
 
Derico
Topic Author
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:44 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 37):
Has anyone yet thought about blaming the Gringos for this contretemps? There's some real mileage there.

Castro already did this afternoon.

http://www.dailymail.com/News/200803030160

edit: BTW, Ecuador has officialy severed diplomatic ties with Colombia.

[Edited 2008-03-03 21:46:29]
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
AR385
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RE: Western Hemisphere Closer To Continental War?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:56 am

If it is proven that Chavez has given cash to the rebels, Venezuela, and I apologize to the Venezuelan people, should be treated no differently than Iran. As a State that sponsors terrorism. UN economic sanctions should apply, and the OAS needs to clarify its position towards Venezuela ASAP.

Correa, the other simian, has said that their country was "about to get the FARC to free Ingrid Betancourt" This is nonsense and a new low. To use that poor woman and her situation to justify their conversations with the FARC is more than despicable. Not only are they causing enormous pain to Betancourt's family, but outright telling lies.

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