Quoting Klaus (Reply 49): You could have noticed that this "ability" is gratuitously afforded to everyone by the a.net crowd, monolingual or not.

Maybe. But then you are the one who bit, so allow me my spurious, petty and rather pathetic little victory.  

Quoting Banco (Reply 50): Maybe. But then you are the one who bit, so allow me my spurious, petty and rather pathetic little victory.

Nothing to argue there - maybe except the "victory" part... 

Quoting Klaus (Reply 51): Nothing to argue there - maybe except the "victory" part...

Hmm, well let me see: Throw out the fishing line, thinking "I bet Klaus responds", Klaus then responds perfectly. Yep, I reckon that's a win. Played for and got. 

(Oh, I freely admit to the part you agree with. I'm in a silly mood today   )

Quoting Banco (Reply 52): Hmm, well let me see: Throw out the fishing line, thinking "I bet Klaus responds", Klaus then responds perfectly. Yep, I reckon that's a win. Played for and got.

Actually, you "won" nothing more than another response in an already ongoing exchange. But if that already makes you happy, be my guest!.   

Banco actually has a point. There's no inherent value in learning many languages, as it just means you can communicate with people who don't speak your own language. Native English speakers have it easy, but that's not something we should look down on them for unless the reason behind it actually is ignorance. If you don't need the skill, you can spend your time more productively learning something else.

Regarding the rest of the discussion, note that I originally said that it might be possible to switch to one language in 30 years. Obviously it would be impossible now. If the decision was made now, however, schools would have ample time to teach children the necessary skills. It wouldn't just benefit the governments, as it would also help business communication.

The reason I think English is the best language is that our largest ally speaks it, and it's the best bet for Asia unless we all want to learn Mandarin.

Also, if it really costs a single taxpayer "less than 2 euros", that's still EXTREMELY expensive. The government does a lot of things, and they add up quickly.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 36): It is. Just like ....

Hey I know that   , but my point was that it should be THE official language, no other, just Slovak.     

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 45): Not just the small countries. Everybody should be able to converse in 2-3 languages at least.

In Slovakia there are plenty of people that are able to converse in 2 languages. It would be best idea for young students or children to spend long time in a foreign country (Slovak children to spend 3 years in Germany, Germany children to spend 3 years in Slovakia). They will be 'forced' to learn new languages and being in the foreign environment they will have to use this new skill. In many instances children have 5-6 hours a week foreign language, but then they don't use it afterwards and they are not able to master the language and to understand different culture. I understand that it is not possible and it will probably never happen (to many barriers), but from my own experience I see benefit in living totally different environment.

I hope that I do make some sense!   

Cheers,
Andrej   

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 54): Banco actually has a point.

Steady now. It was purely a (successful) wind-up attempt!  

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 54): Native English speakers have it easy, but that's not something we should look down on them for unless the reason behind it actually is ignorance. If you don't need the skill, you can spend your time more productively learning something else.

It's actually rather striking that most English-speaking countries have a very similar attitude towards learning other languages. All struggle somewhat, suggesting that the truism that others do go to the effort of learning our language rather removes the necessity of learning others as a matter of course.

Quoting Banco (Reply 56): do go to the effort of learning our language rather removes the necessity of learning others as a matter of course.

many people make an important error. They assume that the people in power in business or politics are people who know languages, while only too often, exactly those persons are MONOlingual. As they usually have a kind of "translator" with them it is not necessary to speak their language in a conversational or written way, but it is useful if you can greet the person and make basic bla-bla in his/her language. And it is perceived as a polite gesture. And if visiting another country it is good if you at least can make your commands in restaurants and cafes and shops in that language, can ask for a room in a hotel, ask for the way to whatever, etc.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 57): but it is useful if you can greet the person and make basic bla-bla in his/her language. And it is perceived as a polite gesture. And if visiting another country it is good if you at least can make your commands in restaurants and cafes and shops in that language, can ask for a room in a hotel, ask for the way to whatever, etc.

Isn't that a bit idealistic though? This line of thinking is usually presented by people who don't actually travel much. For me, it would mean memorizing those things at the very least in French, German, Spanish, Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese and Thai. Not going to happen. There's a reason everyone learns English. When that isn't available, pointing works well enough.

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 58): it is useful if you can greet the person and make basic bla-bla in his/her language. And it is perceived as a polite gesture. And if visiting another country it is good if you at least can make your commands in restaurants and cafes and shops in that language, can ask for a room in a hotel, ask for the way to whatever, etc. Isn't that a bit idealistic though?

No, simply practical. I have used it anywhere at many times. True, in Zurich you can meet many nationalities in a very very short time. AND the French language border is just 120 kms west, the Italian language border just 100 km south, and English speakers are everywhere anyway !    

You think it's practical to use up days of time per year refreshing your language skills just so you can try to impress a waiter who probably thinks your accent is hilarious anyway?

Seriously, even if it means you can successfully order coffee in 5 seconds instead of having to point a bit, that just can't compensate for the time you spent learning all the stuff you'd need to cover.

If the EU were to adapt english as their lingua franca, then that'd translate to more call centers for us 

I for one think it's about time that you all learn NORWEGIAN ...  

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 62): I for one think it's about time that you all learn NORWEGIAN ...

How about Norway becoming an EU member first. We can start to talk after that.

Quoting Banco (Reply 46): What for when you lot work so much time and effort learning ours, bless your little cotton socks...

Hey, don't teach the Brits German, or they find out how to win penalty shootouts   

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 60): it's practical to use up days of time per year refreshing your language skills just so you can try to impress a waiter who probably thinks your accent is hilarious anyway?

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You do NOT have to "impress" anybody. And you do NOT needs days to refresh a language, a visit of a few hours or a talk somewhere will do it. The accent ? If somebody dislikes the accent, he can change the language ... if he can ! Beside the point that in Switzerland, both natives and foreigners are used to "accents" and a rich variety of dialects. Practical however is to be able to address people in their language, as the language-skills of many people have their limits.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 14): Whether people speak English well enough is NOT the point. Things have to be translated for legal reasons. All legal and political texts done on a federal level in Switzerland are ALWAYS published in German, French and Italian, whenever the Italian speakers generally understand German and/or French very well. And I do NOT see an efficiency problem. Those who work on something particular will do so in ONE work-language, and other people will do the translating.

This brings up an interesting point. In the U.S., we have people whose job revolves around deciphering the subtle nuances of legal text written in the English language (aka lawyers). Can you imagine how much more impossibly difficult this is to try to do this with three languages, let alone 27? A paragraph of a law written in one language could possibly be interpreted differently than the corresponding paragraph in another language!

[Edited 2008-03-06 09:25:42]

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 45): Everybody should be able to converse in 2-3 languages at least

You're being far too modest. Everyone with their higher degree diplomas should be able to read and understand leader articles in any 2-3 foreign language EU newspapers of their choice and conduct productive discussion on currernt affairs on the respective fora. Nobody needs a Berlitz (r) type of quasiproficiency.

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 54): Also, if it really costs a single taxpayer "less than 2 euros", that's still EXTREMELY expensive. The government does a lot of things, and they add up quickly.

Everything is too expensive if you consider it unnecessary. I for one consider translations fundamental, so for me this isn't a significant amount of money. For you it is.. Not much more to say on that subject.

Also, as the Union is defined today, your request would mean the end of it. I don't know how I can emphasize this enough. The option of one language above others is not possible. It's all and there is no 'or' after that. Just all.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 66): This brings up an interesting point. In the U.S., we have people whose job revolves around deciphering the subtle nuances of legal text written in the English language (aka lawyers). Can you imagine how much more impossibly difficult this is to try to do this with three languages, let alone 27? A paragraph of a law written in one language could possibly be interpreted differently than the corresponding paragraph in another language!

That is an interesting point, but the translations should be good enough not to cause confusion, but if they do I assume one would refer to other translations and see if the meaning can be clarified through that.

Ultimately, though, these matters are ruled by judges - the lawyers are just advisers making their best guess.

I guess what I'm saying is: You're right, making 27 languages work together is hard. That's part of the challenge of the EU.

saludos

Asturias

Quoting Toast (Reply 40): There is literally nothing we cannot translate accurately

And how much I believe in what you wrote above is literally nothing. There's no such thing as a perfectly accurate translation. If you have a number of translators working independently, every one of them will come up with a different version, and if you ask another group of translators to do the reverse, you'll have nothing but endless variations.

The practicalities of legal EU translation have been solved in reality by establishing a controlled interlingua that is basically a language of its own in any language: that cluttered and opaque Eurospeak.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 69): The practicalities of legal EU translation have been solved in reality by establishing a controlled interlingua that is basically a language of its own in any language: that cluttered and opaque Eurospeak.

What?

Can you show examples of this 'Eurospeak'?

asturias

http://workinglanguages.blogspot.com/2006/01/eurospeak.html

Or take any EU document in your native language to your old school teacher and ask if that is piece is clear and understandable, and worthy of an A+?

Quoting N328KF (Reply 66): Can you imagine how much more impossibly difficult this is to try to do this with three languages, let alone 27?

I CAN imagine it. It is NOT "impossibly difficult", it just is serious work. To say it again, all federal laws and all federal proceedings in Switzerland are published in three languages as a minimum. And if you do military service in the office, you in another part of the country may get relevant texts in another language. So that it is NOT "impossibly" whatever.
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Quoting N328KF (Reply 66): A paragraph of a law written in one language could possibly be interpreted differently than the corresponding paragraph in another language!

Sure. This is why I mentioned the military above. What sounds like a definite command in German sounds like a mild recommendation in French --- or the other way round.
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Quoting AverageUser (Reply 71): Or take any EU document in your native language to your old school teacher and ask if that is piece is clear and understandable, and worthy of an A+?

Allright, however that leads me to believe that the translator for English are the culpable ones. Maybe Toast and co aren't as fantastically talented as they think they are.

The EU translations are only as good as the people who translate them.

Also this is very 'anglophone' POV. If the translations in other languages are better, then there is no indication of 'Eurospeak'. Just bad English. Plenty of that around.

Translations like this have been done for decades in the UN with no problems. This is on a larger scale, but other than that, it is the same.

I remain a sceptic that there is a 'Europspeak'. Sounds more like English anti-EU propaganda.

saludos

Asturias

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 69): There's no such thing as a perfectly accurate translation.

Nothing is "perfect". No airplane can guarantee you perfect security, but it doesn't stop you from flying, does it?

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 69): If you have a number of translators working independently, every one of them will come up with a different version

"Independently" is the key word. ALL EU translations are always a collective work and are reviewed many times before they're published. Plus, the EU uses its own translation and vocabulary database which ensures homogeneity and all but eliminates errors, misunderstandings and confusion. The EU translation process is an intellectual and organisational masterpiece and has nothing to do with how your average independent translator works. And don't forget nobody here translates poetry or any esoteric stuff: it's facts and figures, laws and technical specifications. It's no-nonsense data and besides being a professional translator, every one of us is a specialist in the domain(s) he or she usually translates.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 69): that cluttered and opaque Eurospeak.

The "Eurospeak" you refer to is almost invariably what happens when a bureaucrat too confident in his language skills makes a speech or drafts a document without bothering to let a translator check it beforehand. And Gallicisms are unfortunately but inevitably a scourge of Eurocrats, since most of them live in French-speaking Brussels, Strasbourg or Luxembourg. Everyone who uses several languages on a daily basis tends to make mistakes due to misleading similarities in vocabulary. I'm no exception, and I've seen myself committing Gallicisms on a.net. But they're filtered out mercilessly whenever I translate.

Quoting Toast (Reply 74): Plus, the EU uses its own translation and vocabulary database which ensures homogeneity and all but eliminates errors, misunderstandings and confusion

Did I mention the EU interlingua? love that "all but"!

Quoting Toast (Reply 74): The EU translation process is an intellectual and organisational masterpiece and has nothing to do with how your average independent translator works

Ok, I really must thank you -- I again learned a lot of how the collective EU apparatus operates and conceives itself, from the inside.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 75): love that "all but"!

I suppose you call Boeing or Airbus incompetent and useless whenever a plane skids off a runway... Shit can and does happen, in any job, and I'm the first to admit it. And, like with aircraft manufacturers, every flaw in EU translations is dissected, analysed, discussed, and avoided in the future.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 75): how the collective EU apparatus operates and conceives itself, from the inside.

There you have a sentence that would not make its way into a EU translation!   

Quoting Toast (Reply 76): There you have a sentence that would not make its way into a EU translation!

Yes indeed. It's way too simple, there's just one tentative comma in each part.

Quoting Toast (Reply 74): The "Eurospeak" you refer to is almost invariably what happens when a bureaucrat too confident in his language skills makes a speech or drafts a document without bothering to let a translator check it beforehand.

The documented incident I mentioned was concerning official EU legislation, which you might want to recall that if you read further into my link. Since the EU statutes are what they are in their binding force, a single incorrect choice of word may lead into some quite considerable difficulties. The European Court of Justice had to be called in later to rectify the matter.

From the House of Commons debate (note the usage of "Euro-speak")

The Bill uses the term "sensibly lower" in relation to royalty rates--a curious bit of Euro-speak arrived at during the discussions on the trade agreements. The extension of rights to all the older varieties would make a mockery of those agreements, as the older varieties may not be "sensibly lower".

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 78): a single incorrect choice of word may lead into some quite considerable difficulties. The European Court of Justice had to be called in later to rectify the matter.

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There are no "considerable" difficulties in Switzerland. Texts of course are not translated by a single person, but are re-checked before being published. And in case of doubt, a particular term is taken from ONE language and brought into the two others as "new" words. Or Swisscom uses "Directories" in all three languages in the internet now, while the content is in the three languages. Or the postal code for Switzerland is CH-.... and the code for the Swiss Franc is CHF, with CH being Latin and means Confoederatio Helvetica = Swiss Confederation. Or if being involved in wireless operations in the Swiss Artillery, you when being on the wireless speak German (or French when in the Romandie) but the numbers are given in Italian as being the clearest that way and no translations have to be done.
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And while you in German cities as a pedestrian may go ahead on the "Gehsteig" you in Zurich and Basel and Bern are walking on the "Trottoir" and that flying thing is not a "Hubschrauber" but a "Helicopter" --- etc

[Edited 2008-03-06 23:31:10]

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 65): You do NOT have to "impress" anybody. And you do NOT needs days to refresh a language, a visit of a few hours or a talk somewhere will do it. The accent ? If somebody dislikes the accent, he can change the language ... if he can ! Beside the point that in Switzerland, both natives and foreigners are used to "accents" and a rich variety of dialects. Practical however is to be able to address people in their language, as the language-skills of many people have their limits.

You keep talking about Switzerland even though the issue was mostly about travel. I can guarantee you that in most countries the locals would rather use English than wait for you to stammer out phrases you memorized on the airplane. No one I know considers it to be polite.

Also, do you realize just how much effort goes into learning a foreign language well enough to have even a simple discussion? It really doesn't make sense to spend time maintaining your skills in over half a dozen languages when the rest of the world has already solved the problem by concentrating on one common language in addition to the native one.

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 80): I can guarantee you that in most countries the locals would rather use English than wait for you to stammer out phrases you memorized on the airplane.

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You canNOT learn basics of a language within a day. Forget it. And I base my argument on travels to many different countries, where even a rudimentary knowledge of the local language often is better than what comes round from the other side. If you "stammer" then you should consult the doctor .
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Quoting Killjoy (Reply 80): You keep talking about Switzerland even though the issue was mostly about travel. I can guarantee you that in most countries the locals would rather use English than wait for you to stammer out phrases you memorized on the airplane. No one I know considers it to be polite.

English is as helpful as Chinese in many European countries. It is far from being a 'universal language'. Your position is very anglophil, and doesn't hold when travelling in Europe.

Many people who know some English prefer to not speak it anyway. Not just the stereotypical 'French' people.

asturias

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 81): - You canNOT learn basics of a language within a day. Forget it. And I base my argument on travels to many different countries, where even a rudimentary knowledge of the local language often is better than what comes round from the other side. If you "stammer" then you should consult the doctor . -

But... that was my whole point. Just how much time do you want to spend learning the language of every country you travel to? It's completely impractical for more than one or two countries.

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 83): But... that was my whole point. Just how much time do you want to spend learning the language of every country you travel to? It's completely impractical for more than one or two countries.

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Common sense is important. You have to concentrate on languages A) of importance and B) you like . To give you a practical example, a visit to Barcelona, an absolutely tremendous city. But quite many people there do not speak English or French. My Spanish is the famous 20 words plus a bit, and rather Castilian than Catalan. In such a case you have to limit the use of such a language
A) to people who apparently do not speak one of your languages (which is legal ! )
B) to simple and short statements --- do not ask questions, as you would fail with the answers
C) make it clear that your conversation ability is zero --- to "stammer" makes no sense
another example Italy. In spite to what was mentioned above, quite many people even in Milano, but even more so in places like Bergamo, Como, Varese, Lugano, Locarno, etc are NOT speaking other languages in a useful way. I can speak Italian in a way that I can order things in restaurants, go into a hotel and speak about the price, speak about the price in a shop, ask for the way, etc etc BUT no conversations
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and this is an important point. Do not go too far. Know your limits. Only talk if you can make a short statement. If you are stammering, tracing for words etc, it is of no use. And when speaking, do not care too much about the grammar. Either you have got it BEFORE or not, but you cannot do so at the moment you are in touch with people.
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And then, you can expect people in the Benelux to speak either English OR French OR German, but you cannot take anyone of these three for granted. Be aware of the point that many older people in the Netherlands still DISlike German, that many people in Belgium Flanders, while speaking French perfectly well, prefer English.
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People in cities like Budapest and Prague very often speak German OR English. In downtown rather German, at the airport rather English. If you are fluent in both languages, make the OFFER "Deutsch oder English ? " In Turkey, the favourite is German, with English widespread but often rather meagre.
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My favourite school-teacher fluently spoke and wrote German, French, English, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Polish and Russian. A business partner on Cyprus (of Italian-Egyptian origin) speaks and writes Italian, Arabic, English, French, German, Turkish, Iranian and Greek. Neither of them suffered under having learnt these languages. The teacher had a profound understanding for the cultures and the histories and the realities of the nations in question, and so does the businessmen.
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True enough, learning languages IS time-consuming, but it is N O T wasted time.
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But again, know your limits, and be realistic.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 84): Common sense is important. You have to concentrate on languages A) of importance and B) you like . To give you a practical example, a visit to Barcelona, an absolutely tremendous city. But quite many people there do not speak English or French. My Spanish is the famous 20 words plus a bit, and rather Castilian than Catalan. In such a case you have to limit the use of such a language

Yes, well, this sounds a lot more reasonable, but may I remind you that this tangent started when I thought you meant that people should learn the basics for everything they encounter  

Sure I can read a menu and find what I want in any of the major European languages most of the time, but that's where it ends for me. The only language I've tried to learn more about is German, and just that one language is more than I can handle even for basic conversation. You can forget even the menu for any of the smaller languages, or more distant ones.

It's not that I'm stupid, because I have learned English after all, but I just don't get to speak anything else often enough for anything to stick in my head. I travel a lot, but I usually don't stay in one place for more than a week. It's really not worth the effort for me. Like I said earlier, pointing and bad local English works well enough  

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 85): It's not that I'm stupid, because I have learned English after all,

You should have that as your signature. It's the funniest thing I've read all week!

asturias