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kc135topboom
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The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:58 am

Last Friday, the USAF selected NG/EADS's KC-30 version of the A-330MRTT as the replacement of the KC-135E. US OEM Boeing had competed in the competition with an advanced version of the KC-767, called the KC-767AT.

Over the weekend, Congressional Democrats and Republicans alike have come out in support of the Boeing proposal. They say it is a national security issue. Presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton also came out supporting Boeing, and the 44,000 US jobs the Boeing proposal claimed. Barack Obama, the US Senator from IL, where Boeing's HQ is, has not weighed in on this issue, yet (or at least not what I have heard).

I guess, the KC-45 contract issue is far from settled. The US Congress can cancel the NG/EADS contract for the convenience of the government, and re-issue it to Boeing. Or they can simply not fund it. They can also fund modifications to the KC-135Es to keep them flying until the issue is settled.

Congress also has the power to keep this issue out of the US Courts (EU Courts will not have jurisdiction) and also keep the GAO (who works for Congress) out of the contract.

What do you think?
 
miamiair
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:17 am

IMO, a foreign built(design, support, spares) is ok for utility roles. It is not ok for principle elements of our war fighting capabilites.

Boeing can and should appeal the decision under the clause in the bid for proposals.
 
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moo
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:22 am

What was the point in holding an RFP at all?
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:26 am



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 1):
a foreign built(design, support, spares) is ok for utility roles. It is not ok for principle elements of our war fighting capabilites.

-
-
If so then be not surprised if in future, European countries also make decisions on the basis of "national security" in regard to "principle elements of war fighting capabilities". So that the present thing in a way is a testing issue. Beside the point that the airplanes are to be produced in Alabama.
 
Gman94
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:33 am



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 1):
IMO, a foreign built(design, support, spares) is ok for utility roles. It is not ok for principle elements of our war fighting capabilites.

Boeing can and should appeal the decision under the clause in the bid for proposals.

You can take back all those F16's that are flying around the world and shove 'em where the sun don't shine then if that's your attitude and how many US jobs would of been lost if foreign air forces hadn't bought all those planes from the US. You had also better scrap all those Harriers flying around with the Marine Corps, damn foreign junk gets everywhere. Typical American nonsense, you want free and open markets but only on your terms.  banghead 
 
MYT332
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:36 am

Get over it.
 
miamiair
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:39 am



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 4):
if foreign air forces hadn't bought all those planes

Don't get all emotional about it. Some countries don't have the capability to build their own. And that is why they can buy from whoever they want.
 
gkirk
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:42 am



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 1):

So you'd rather your Air Forece have an inferior product?
 
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moo
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:44 am



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 1):

Boeing can and should appeal the decision under the clause in the bid for proposals.

Interesting, considering Boeing are building several solutions for the USAF and USMC in the same vein as NG (foreign design, foreign subcomponents, Boeing final assembly) .
 
miamiair
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:45 am



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 7):
So you'd rather your Air Forece have an inferior product?

Ask the Israeli Air Force if our products are inferior. They are the largest MiG parts distributor in the Middle East.

And from a structural point of view, Boeings are built better (designed anyways).
 
andrej
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:52 am



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 7):

So you'd rather your Air Forece have an inferior product?

....as long as its build by an American firm.....  duck 


USAF choose better product, it will be assembled in the US, it will create US jobs and it will have positive impact on local economy. One should remember that EADS already outsources some parts from the US to produce Airbus planes. Boeing planes are not 100% 'Made in the USA' as many parts are produced and outsourced from around the World.

If the Euro being so strong, I would not surprised if EADS would not produce more airplanes (types) in their Alabama facility to take advantage of cheaper labor and other lower variable input costs (compared to their facilities in Europe).

But the politicians yet again fail to see benefits, due to the fact that Boeing lost with inferior product.

Cheers,
Andrej
 
andrej
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:58 am



Quoting Andrej (Reply 10):
Ask the Israeli Air Force if our products are inferior.

I believe that Gkirk was referring to B767 tanker that was offered by Boeing. (topic of this thread) It goes without saying that many fighters, bombers and helicopters produced in the US are very good products, but when comparing B767AT with A330MRTT, it is in fact inferior.


Cheers,
Andrej
 
miamiair
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:59 am



Quoting Andrej (Reply 10):
But the politicians yet again fail to see benefits, due to the fact that Boeing lost with inferior product.

Like building the A400M to do C-17 missions?
 
gkirk
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:13 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 12):
Like building the A400M to do C-17 missions?

Isn't the A400M much smaller than the C-17, so your argument has no sense to it.
 
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moo
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:19 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 12):

Like building the A400M to do C-17 missions?

The A400M was designed as a bridging aircraft between the smaller C-130 and the larger C-17, so a smaller air force could buy one aircraft to do both tactical and strategic missions rather than operate two different types.

Its only an inferior product if you are going to operate it in place of either C-17 or C-130 all the time. The RAF realised this when they discovered they were getting damn good usage out of their leased C-17s for strategic lift all the time, and thus turned the lease into a purchase and then increased the number on order.
 
cpd
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:21 pm

Politics have little place in these kinds of decisions, and it just goes to show how insecure politicians are and how desperate they are to further their careers at any cost.

This whole RFP was destined to be political dynamite - so I wouldn't be surprised if ethics and transparenct were even more carefully considered this time around because of the storm that was always going to be caused if the A330 won out.

If the whole thing was considered ethically and in a transparent, unbiased manner and the A330 is the much better plane, then that should be the end of it. Politicians should quite vote-scoring and focus on getting the very best product for the defence forces to use, regardless of where it comes from.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:21 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 1):

Boeing can and should appeal the decision under the clause in the bid for proposals

I could not agree more and give the life of a EADS tanker 20years comared to a boeing tanker that could last 30-40 years. I believe it is politics and Boeing should apeal and apeal till someone tells them to stop. They need to win.

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 9):
Boeings are built better (designed anyways).

Amen, I will take a Boeing anyday. Nodisrespect towards airbus, but the Boeing offers a better platform and Boeing should goahead weith a proposed 777LR platform.

Kinghunter
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:23 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 6):
if foreign air forces hadn't bought all those planes

Don't get all emotional about it. Some countries don't have the capability to build their own. And that is why they can buy from whoever they want.

Great Britain and France HAVE the capability to build their own. And others who do not do might prefer to buy inside the E.U. if that deal now gets turned around in the USA for protectionist reasons. And most airforces want to buy the profuct best suited for their purpose, regardless of supplier-nationality. But the governments might decide otherwise. So, to say it again, this matter has become a testing issue overnight.
-

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 9):
So you'd rather your Air Forece have an inferior product?
Ask the Israeli Air Force if our products are inferior.

-
You should not take this remark in such an emotional way. That the US Air Force chose an Airbus product does not mean that the Boeing product is really inferior, it means that the Airbus products fits the present demand better.
-
But the "national security" argument simply is a bad one.
-
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:30 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 3):
If so then be not surprised if in future, European countries also make decisions on the basis of "national security" in regard to "principle elements of war fighting capabilities".

I have to agree. Unless we want to see Europe embargo American-made military hardware, we can't complain about buying European planes. Especially when American planes are becoming increasingly competitive due to the Dollar.

But I have to say I am surprised at the decision. The sheer abundance of 767s on the market would ensure continued availability of inexpensive spare parts for decades, unlike the A330 which has been produced in far fewer numbers (especially for the US). But I suppose that there were hundreds of other criteria in play...
 
miamiair
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:31 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 17):
You should not take this remark in such an emotional way

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Whats done is probably done. The durability of the Airbus will be seen. After all, if they start replacing belly skins at the first PDM, I will be laughing my rear end off.
 
andrej
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:31 pm



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 16):
Quoting Miamiair (Reply 9):
Boeings are built better (designed anyways).

Amen, I will take a Boeing anyday.....

Thanks for good laugh. What is the benchmark you guys are using?

I really don't care if it is Airbus, Boeing, EMB or CRJ as I enjoy flying different types of airplanes. (After all, if they are operated in the US, they must pass some certification, right?  Smile ) For me quality of service, leg-room, pitch and price are more important to what type of plane I am on, but hey to each their own.  Smile

Cheers,
Andrej
 
miamiair
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:38 pm

Quoting Andrej (Reply 20):
What is the benchmark you guys are using?

Have you ever worked on either? Didn't think so. From a design POV, Boeing has it over Airbus. The margins are greater on the 767 than the 330. Both meet the criteria of FAR 25, but Boeing adds a bit more than the usual 150%.

[Edited 2008-03-03 04:39:18]
 
David L
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:41 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 9):
And from a structural point of view, Boeings are built better (designed anyways).



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 16):
give the life of a EADS tanker 20years comared to a boeing tanker that could last 30-40 years

Do you have any details?
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:44 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Thread starter):
Over the weekend, Congressional Democrats and Republicans alike have come out in support of the Boeing proposal. They say it is a national security issue. Presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton also came out supporting Boeing, and the 44,000 US jobs the Boeing proposal claimed. Barack Obama, the US Senator from IL, where Boeing's HQ is, has not weighed in on this issue, yet (or at least not what I have heard).

I was curious about this over the weekend and checked out most of the major US papers' online sites. The only place that's going bonkers over this is WA state. A bit of protest in KS and IL but pretty restrained in reality. Most major papers had exactly zero to say about it beyond a stock AP story that was not in any way headlined and in many cases not even accessible from the front page.

The most interesting thing will be CA. Duncan Hunter has come out against it but the real question is Pelosi since she has a lot of influence. As NG is headquartered in CA and will be adding jobs for this project on top of more than 50 supplier sites in the State, I suspect she'll go for the loud harumping and no action type of response. We'll see.

Even Obama admitted that he didn't know a thing about the details and might have to change his:

Quote:
Obama, speaking to reporters at a campaign event in Ohio, said it was hard for him to believe "that having an American company that has been a traditional source of aeronautic excellence would not have done this job." He prefaced his comments by saying he had not examined the deal carefully.

from http://www.al.com/news/press-registe...e/news/1204539350137440.xml&coll=3

Also, State of AL recruiters have been working behind the scenes on getting more US suppliers involved in the project for over a year; they also work closely with MS, GA, and FL counterparts. They have a lot of experience in this type of work and have been very successful in the past. Expect a pile of announcements of European suppliers building new plants in the area over the next few months. Each of these will make it just a little more difficult to make the "French" label stick.

http://www.al.com/news/press-registe...e/news/1204539363137440.xml&coll=3
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:45 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 19):
The durability of the Airbus will be seen. After all, if they start replacing belly skins at the first PDM, I will be laughing my rear end off.

The "durability" of Airbus planes is as proven as the ones of Boeing. That airplanes however need to be maintained is obvious. And for a contract of this size it makes sense to have the production in Alabama.
 
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moo
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:47 pm



Quoting David L (Reply 22):

Do you have any details?

I think he is referring to the 'design life' of an Airbus being half as long as a comparable Boeing - except Airbus is currently in the process of updating those design life limits as their original estimations for the A320, A330 and A340 were rather pessimistic.
 
jush
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:51 pm

Ok come on America. You lost the race, get on with life.

Regds
jush
 
David L
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:55 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 25):
I think he is referring to the 'design life' of an Airbus being half as long as a comparable Boeing

Ah, fair point. You can't be too careful.  Smile
 
Stretch 8
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:56 pm

Having been in the federal procurement process as an attorney for some 18 years, I have the strong impression that DoD has this decision nailed. That is not to say that Boeing will not protest (file a legal challenge to) the decision to select NG/EADS to the Government Accountability Office (GAO). But in all likelihood, this is over and the best team won.

The losing "outraged" politicians be damned.
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:59 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Thread starter):

Maybe a deal between Germany and the US Government .. Germany brings some troops to the south and EADS gets the order .

It maybe sounds stupid ... I hope this deal never happened .

Constantin
 
flynavy
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:01 pm

I, for one, though I'm an American, support the decision to go with EADS. So, not all Americans are xenophobic.

[Edited 2008-03-03 05:06:18]
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:05 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 1):
IMO, a foreign built(design, support, spares) is ok for utility roles. It is not ok for principle elements of our war fighting capabilites.

Boeing can and should appeal the decision under the clause in the bid for proposals.

All right for all the US's export customers then ?

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 6):
Don't get all emotional about it. Some countries don't have the capability to build their own. And that is why they can buy from whoever they want.

Some do have the capability, but look for the best deal, as opposed to jingoistict chest thumping.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 16):
I could not agree more and give the life of a EADS tanker 20years comared to a boeing tanker that could last 30-40 years. I believe it is politics and Boeing should apeal and apeal till someone tells them to stop. They need to win.

Either tanker will have a 30 - 40 year life, after all the military don't fly anywhere near the hours commercial operators do.
Boeing don't "need" to win, as the loss of this one is hardly going to put them out of business.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 16):
Amen, I will take a Boeing anyday. Nodisrespect towards airbus, but the Boeing offers a better platform and Boeing should goahead weith a proposed 777LR platform.

Why didn't the pentagon agree with you ?
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:10 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 30):
I, for one, though I'm an American, support the decision to go with EADS. So, not all Americans are xenophobic.

I'm with Chris on this one.

Not all Americans believe we should have bought from Boeing, no matter what. And it's ironic that some people here are criticizing Americans for being ignorant, yet by lumping 300million people together because of the words of two anetters... they're just as ignorant themselves.  Yeah sure

-UH60
 
David L
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:13 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 30):
I, for one, though I'm an American, support the decision to go with EADS. So, not all Americans are xenophobic.

Actually, I thought the discussions in the Military forum were very well balanced.
 
flynavy
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:17 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 32):
I'm with Chris on this one.

Not all Americans believe we should have bought from Boeing, no matter what. And it's ironic that some people here are criticizing Americans for being ignorant, yet by lumping 300million people together because of the words of two anetters... they're just as ignorant themselves. Yeah sure

-UH60

 checkmark  Not to mention that the French are our allies!
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:19 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 34):

checkmark Not to mention that the French are our allies!

*and Germans (Airbus is French-German !)
 
andrej
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:24 pm



Quoting David L (Reply 33):

Actually, I thought the discussions in the Military forum were very well balanced.

 checkmark 

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 32):

Not all Americans believe we should have bought from Boeing, no matter what. And it's ironic that some people here are criticizing Americans for being ignorant, yet by lumping 300million people together because of the words of two anetters... they're just as ignorant themselves

I lived in the US and I know that two anetters are not representative sample of the US opinion. I believe that better product won, and it should not really matter whether it is made by Boeing or Airbus as both manufacturers outsource and take advantage of global markets. If KC-30 was better than KC-767, USAF did the right choice.

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 21):

Thanks for letting me know what you are comparing these planes to. I thought that Airbus is working on extending the lifetime, but I may be wrong. Anyways don't get me wrong B767 is a great airplane, that has proven itself many times over however in this case KC-30 was better. And no, I had never the pleasure to work on these planes.  guilty 
Cheers,
Andrej
 
gkirk
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:29 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 35):
*and Germans (Airbus is French-German !)

Hmmm....and I thought that the UK and Spain were also part of Airbus?  scratchchin 
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:36 pm



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 37):
Hmmm....and I thought that the UK and Spain were also part of Airbus? scratchchin

Well but Germany and France have both about 30% so both are the biggest owners .
 
flynavy
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:38 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 35):



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 37):

I'm not debating that. But the media here in the States are spinning it as "...the French won over Boeing." Which is, obviously, not entirely accurate.
 
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scbriml
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:46 pm

This is where I have a bit of a problem. The AF and Boeing do a dodgy deal to lease 100 767-based tankers. This gets thrown out by congress, folks go to jail and the AF is told to issue a competitive RFP for new tankers. They do, and Boeing's tanker gets trounced by the "evil French" product. Now folks want the politicians to intervene and overturn the AF's decision and give the contract to Boeing. In the mean time, several years and tens (if not hundreds) of millions of $s have been wasted. confused 

Unless it can be shown that the AF's evaluation process was flawed (and they've reiterated numerous times that the process was thorough and transparent), I don't see what Boeing can base it's appeal on. They knew the terms of the RFP, they knew the evaluation criteria, and they knew what they were up against before they submitted their bid. Their product lost 4.5 - 0.5, it wasn't even close.

Now from the political perspective, most of the noise is coming from states where Boeing has its facilities. Not a big surprise, those politicians are just doing what they're paid to do. For every state that's "horrified" by the decision, there's probably the same number that are delighted. So, is it reasonable for the politicians that forced the AF to issue an RFP for tankers, to then force the AF to accept the product they don't want?

 
Pope
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:50 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Thread starter):
Presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton also came out supporting Boeing, and the 44,000 US jobs the Boeing proposal claimed.

So much for her pledge to help re-establish the relationship between the US and the rest of the world if she became president.

As long as the RFP process was fair then the results should be respected. But changing the rules after the results are in fails the smell test the same way that Gore's position with respect to the 2000 Florida recount and HRC's position with respect to Florida's and Michigan's primaries in 2008 stink.

How about we let the Air Force decide what the best equipment for their task is and keep the 535 wantabe Secretaries of the Air Force out of it.
 
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scbriml
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:56 pm



Quoting Pope (Reply 41):
As long as the RFP process was fair then the results should be respected.

 checkmark 

Quoting Pope (Reply 41):
How about we let the Air Force decide what the best equipment for their task is and keep the 535 wantabe Secretaries of the Air Force out of it.

Good luck with that when there are votes out there to be won.  no 
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:40 pm



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 16):
They need to win.

WHY ? The Airbus-Northrop program gives the State of Alabama some good business, which for a not so affluent state may be nice.
-

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 39):
the media here in the States are spinning it as "...the French won over Boeing." Which is, obviously, not entirely accurate.

AND, beside Airbus being French-German-British-Spanish, Northrop-Grumman is US-American and Alabama is in the USA
 
miamiair
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:57 pm

And after everything that is said and done, it was Boeing's fault they lost.

They tried to pull a fast one back then, and their bid was found wanting.

I still think the K767 is superior to the A330. Durability will be an issue.

NG/EADS won this one; bon apetit.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:51 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 30):
I, for one, though I'm an American, support the decision to go with EADS.

 checkmark 

I'm with you on this. Frankly, I just want our armed forces to have the best equipment possible - and if that means buying tankers based on the A330 platform instead of the B767-200 platform, then so be it.

From what I've been reading the KC-45A certainly appears to be the superior aircraft. If Boeing had a proposal ready based on the 787, there would arguably have been a different outcome.

But they didn't - and so EADS won.

And I'm perfectly okay with that.
 
Klaus
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:52 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 29):
Maybe a deal between Germany and the US Government .. Germany brings some troops to the south and EADS gets the order .

Not a chance in hell.

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 44):
I still think the K767 is superior to the A330. Durability will be an issue.

At the much higher capability the 330 brings to the table, even some additional maintenance would be easily affordable. If there should actually be any, that is.
 
NoWorries
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RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:09 pm

I don't subscribe to the belief that one plane is somehow vastly superior to the other -- there are difference -- the Air Force got the plane they wanted. The politicians can't kill this without all sorts of ramifications and in-fighting. Now, maybe the politicians will pony up some more taxpayer dollars and mandate that the AF buy some KC767s as well -- didn't Congress recently order more C-17s that the AF said they didn't need? (The cynic might even conclude the AF knew this would happen.)
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:17 pm



Quoting NoWorries (Reply 47):
I don't subscribe to the belief that one plane is somehow vastly superior to the other

According to the Air Force, the 330 beat the 767 easily in four out of five criteria and matched the fifth. That looks like a pretty clear case to me.
 
NoWorries
Posts: 493
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:55 am

RE: The KC-45 And US Politics

Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:32 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 48):
According to the Air Force, the 330 beat the 767 easily in four out of five criteria and matched the fifth. That looks like a pretty clear case to me.

The AF had their criterion and they got he plane they wanted. My point here was that reading some of the exaggerated posts made it sound like one model or the other was ready to disintegrate in flight or somehow one country has vastly superior engineering capabilities than the other -- all rather juvenile -- NG chose a better base model to meet the needs of the AF -- it's that simple.

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