User avatar
Asturias
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:54 pm



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 43):
So are we making "area" one of the requirements now?

No - if you want an elaboration on that answer, you can read my post where you got your quote. Your question makes no sense in light of that and it is obvious you didn't read it, nor did you try to understand it.

Fine by me, but don't expect me to reply in any seriousness to people who don't actually read what they're commenting on.

saludos

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
User avatar
Asturias
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:16 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 44):
Turkey is not at war with the Kurdish population (which BTW has voted overwhelmingly for the moderate Islamic Conservative party of Erdogan, and which is comparable to the European Christian-Democrat parties like the CDU in Germany, many conservative Muslims in Germany btw. vote for the CDU, since it's conservative values are closest to what they want), but with a small, militant Stalinist party named the PKK.

I don't know how to respond to that exactly.. other than saying you've been had. For all intents and purposes Turkey is at war with the Kurdish population, because only Kurds are trying to carve an independent Kurdish state for themselves. You're saying that Turkey isn't at war with Kurds and it's just an unfortunate coincidence that the PKK is comprised and supported by Kurds? Well imagine that!


PKK was a stalinist-whatever party, but changed to Islamic fundamentalism after Communism died - it was and is an oportunistic party who grab for any backup they can. Used to be Communists, now it's OBL and co. Whatever gets the job done.

Finally Erdogan and his party.. are Islamist sympathizers. They are to Islam what a party composed of George W Bushes and John Aschcrofts are to Evangelism.

They are nothing like any ruling party in Europe. Not even comparable. Simple as that.

saludos

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
User avatar
yowza
Posts: 4506
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:01 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:27 pm



Quoting Asturias (Reply 39):
Your historical revisionism isn't helping your case

Call it revisionism if you will but the reality is that poverty in Romania is being exploited by some to look north/northeast for help, not west.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 39):
however they don't demonstrate technological advancement like education and growth potential does, where Romania wipes the floor with Turkey

Well since you seem to be the validation police would you care to cite some sources for this rather wild claim? Let's be honest here when Romanian wages and living conditions rise to the level of other EU nations the only incentive for companies to set up shop there will disappear?

Quoting Asturias (Reply 39):
Turkey just takes US handouts in return for being the US puppet in the Middle-East.

Turkey does take American handouts, but I think you'll find the list of countries that take American handouts is not exactly short  Smile If you believe even for a second that Romania takes zero dollars from the US you are sadly mistaken. As for Turkey being a puppet in the region for the US you're wrong. Turkey can be reasoned with and the US can at times have Turkey's ear with regards to policy. However the strength of Turkey both politically and militarily allows it to act unilaterally should the need arise. This is happening right now, incursions into Northern Iraq are being made with the express purpose of maintaining Turkish sovereignty. This without the blessing of Washington... that's not exactly puppet behavior now is it?

Quoting Asturias (Reply 39):
They are not hunted or killed systematically or discriminated against like Turks do with Kurds today.

OK now you're just flat out lying. Turkey's present campaign has a very specific purpose and as such has a specific target, the PKK. Turkey do not want an independent Kurdistan, but if the US forces in Iraq are instructed to allow semi-autonomy to occur in the North, Turkey stands to lose a lot. The current campaign is simply a means of fighting that and weakening the PKK. Any democratic country is at liberty to fight internal separatist movements. For you to classify this as mass systematic killing is wrong. The second the PKK stop pushing their luck in terms of jockeying for position in Turkey there will be a full withdrawal. You will no doubt know that Turkey has in the past cooperated and worked with the PUK and the KDP, both Kurdish entities. Hardly the acts of a barbaric nation...

Quoting Asturias (Reply 39):
You should be thankful that I chose to ignore it.. frankly I didn't even notice it. Playing the race card dumbs down discussions and removes the credibility of the one who played it, for he's stopped using logic and resorts to emotional and politically correct drivel to make his point.

Believe me I hate it when people play the race card BUT in this case I do believe it was a factor and as such should be the point of discussion and not simply ignored away in the same way as you chose to ignore my talking about how gypsies are treated in Spain. Then again Spain does not exactly have a glowing record when it comes to tolerance, I'm pretty sure Samuel Eto and Lewis Hamilton would concur. All of that said anything we see coming out of Spain is minuscule compared tot the horror that the gypsies have endured in Romania, Bulgaria and Slovakia in particular is really saddening.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 39):
You are clearly biased towards Turkey, which is fine but it doesn't make you right.

I am not biased towards Turkey AT ALL. In fact it is my personal position that the EU should have stopped growing a while ago and that Turkey should NOT be allowed into the EU anytime soon. However, I was hoping for some more honesty and transparency from the EU. Neither of which appears to be forthcoming.

YOWza
 
AM744
Posts: 1471
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 11:05 pm

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:02 am

Hasn´t the EU grown a lot, too fast? Do you, Europeans, feel this policy will pay in the long run?
 
User avatar
Asturias
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:49 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 52):
Call it revisionism if you will but the reality is that poverty in Romania is being exploited by some to look north/northeast for help, not west.

North and Northeast of Romania you find Belarus, Ukraine and Russia. Are you suggesting that Romanians are being exploited by someone to look for help in these countries instead of within the EU countries to which Romania belongs?

Quoting YOWza (Reply 52):
Well since you seem to be the validation police would you care to cite some sources for this rather wild claim? Let's be honest here when Romanian wages and living conditions rise to the level of other EU nations the only incentive for companies to set up shop there will disappear?

The literacy level of people in Turkey is about 85%, but in Romania 97%. This is a fundamental pre-requisite for economic growth in a country and Turkey lags far behind Romania. Just as an example. Hardly a wild claim and easy enough to look up in publications like the CIA World Factbook.

Health is poor in Turkey compared to Romania and the amount of young people is abnormally high for a developed country. In fact, like Romania, Turkey is not a developing country but unlike Romania it's demographics are more reminiscent of Europe 100 years ago than anything else.

25% are under 14 years old in Turkey, while that number is about 15% in Romania and about 18% in France.
7% are over the age of 64 in Turkey, while about 15% are over 64 in Romania and 16% in France.

This indicates that Turkey'spopulation are not on the same level, or even century, as Romanians. A stable population in good health is paramount to continued growth. Romania wipes the floor with Turkey in that regard.

Infant mortality rate in Turkey is 38/1000 while in Romania it is 25/1000. Granted both fare rather ill compared to France where infant mortality rate is only 3.4/1000. However, again compared to Turkey, Romania is doing very well.

The GDP per capita is $2000 higher in Romania than in Turkey, while the growth rates are comparable. Unemployment is near 10% in Turkey, while it is 4.5% in Romania.

And finally a funny thing: 22.7% of Romanians have internet access, while only 17% of Turks do. Not that it matters very much, but it kinda blows your earlier claim about the reverse right out of the water. You might want to go over your facts again.

Bottom line is: no matter how you spin it, Romania is decades ahead of Turkey economically and in various fundamental demographic values, such as health, longevity etc. and is therefore far better prepared for growth than Turkey.

I guess what I'm saying is, if you think Romania is poor, you should see Turkey.

What will happen when Romania achieves the same level of economy as the rest of Europe? I don't know, but that's not the immediate worry, nor is it relevant to this discussion, now is it?

Quoting YOWza (Reply 52):
Turkey does take American handouts, but I think you'll find the list of countries that take American handouts is not exactly short

  I know. The reach of Uncle Sam is quite big, however in Turkey's instance it is big and firm. Turkey relies on US handouts for their military, while European countries do not. There has been various sucking up to the US by EU members in recent times such as Denmark, Italy and Poland to name a few, but none of these depend on the USA like Turkey does. For the US, Turkey is a valuable strategic asset, a gateway into the Middle-East.

The US set up nuclear missiles pointed at the USSR from Turkey back in the 60s, let us not forget. Since then it has been the platform from which US military operations have been launched farther into the Middle East and Asia.

During the Cold War, most countries in Western Europe received substantial aid from the USA, but we all weaned off it. The countries in the Middle-East haven't been able to, Turkey included. Israel and Egypt also, to name a couple more.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 52):
As for Turkey being a puppet in the region for the US you're wrong. Turkey can be reasoned with and the US can at times have Turkey's ear with regards to policy. However the strength of Turkey both politically and militarily allows it to act unilaterally should the need arise. This is happening right now, incursions into Northern Iraq are being made with the express purpose of maintaining Turkish sovereignty. This without the blessing of Washington... that's not exactly puppet behavior now is it?

According to Hurriyet, Turkey pulled its troops out of Iraq last Friday, the day after the U.S. Defense Secretary and the U.S. President called for a quick end to the operation.    Hmmm. Sounds like strings were pulled and the puppet moved.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 52):
OK now you're just flat out lying. Turkey's present campaign has a very specific purpose and as such has a specific target, the PKK. Turkey do not want an independent Kurdistan, but if the US forces in Iraq are instructed to allow semi-autonomy to occur in the North, Turkey stands to lose a lot. The current campaign is simply a means of fighting that and weakening the PKK. Any democratic country is at liberty to fight internal separatist movements. For you to classify this as mass systematic killing is wrong. The second the PKK stop pushing their luck in terms of jockeying for position in Turkey there will be a full withdrawal. You will no doubt know that Turkey has in the past cooperated and worked with the PUK and the KDP, both Kurdish entities. Hardly the acts of a barbaric nation...

I agree Turkey's present campaign has a specific purpose, it's just that it's the same purpose as always. Squash Kurds. The worst thing Turks can imagine as a result of the Iraqi war is an independent Kurdistan in N-Iraq. Now that would start a snowball rolling that they want to nip in the bud.

I sympathize with a nation's need to curb separatist movements, but the methods employed by Turkey are not acceptable for an EU country. Simple as that.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 52):
Believe me I hate it when people play the race card BUT in this case I do believe it was a factor and as such should be the point of discussion and not simply ignored away in the same way as you chose to ignore my talking about how gypsies are treated in Spain. Then again Spain does not exactly have a glowing record when it comes to tolerance, I'm pretty sure Samuel Eto and Lewis Hamilton would concur. All of that said anything we see coming out of Spain is minuscule compared tot the horror that the gypsies have endured in Romania, Bulgaria and Slovakia in particular is really saddening.

I neither watch football nor the F1. Bore me to tears. Nevertheless, I did hear about the incidents. I'm sure if I looked, I wouldn't find similar things happening in, say, Canada? Racism in sports is a world of its own and no country is excluded there. It is what it is.

If you want historical comparisons well, then. Armenia WWI. Half a million Armenians are killed in an attempted genocide by Turks. To this day, they will not even acknowledge this. Let alone make reprimands.
1984-1999 around 3,000 Kurdish villages in Turkey were virtually wiped from the map, representing the displacement of more than 378,000 people.
Until 1991, the use of the Kurdish language was illegal.
Christians, Jews, Greeks, Armenians, all have suffered had they dared live on Turkish ground - and the atrocious thing is, that they still do.

Even today there is great hate towards these minorities and there seems no end in sight for that. In February a written inquiry was submitted to the Turkish Parliament concerning a website that targets non-Muslim minority groups in Turkey by publishing telephone numbers and full addresses of many Armenian, Jewish and Greek schools, places of worship and publishing houses.

Whatever you choose to belive is fine. However, in reality, Turkey is far from Europe. Even farther from the EU.

 

Quoting YOWza (Reply 52):
I am not biased towards Turkey AT ALL. In fact it is my personal position that the EU should have stopped growing a while ago and that Turkey should NOT be allowed into the EU anytime soon. However, I was hoping for some more honesty and transparency from the EU. Neither of which appears to be forthcoming.

If it isn't you who is biased, then it is your information. I am glad you have an open mind, but you sound like a partisan and your information slants towards Turkey. I don't know why.

Still with all those positive things to say about Turkey, you are against EU ascencion for Turkey anytime soon. There we agree.   

saludos

Asturias

[Edited 2008-03-03 16:51:24]
Tonight we fly
 
User avatar
Asturias
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:58 am



Quoting AM744 (Reply 53):
Hasn´t the EU grown a lot, too fast? Do you, Europeans, feel this policy will pay in the long run?

Indeed it has and the EU cannot accept any more members for the foreseeable future. Applications to the EU have been terminated indefinitely according to Barroso.

Synchronizing the inner workings of so many new countries is going to be a long and arduous process and perhaps the EU took on more than it could chew, but I myself have a positive attitude that we will see this integration through.

It's not that the countries recently admitted are any worse off than those who have entered the Union before, it's just that there have never been as many new nations in such a short period of time.

I hope we did the right thing.

saludos

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
virgin744
Posts: 825
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 1999 5:51 pm

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:45 am

Here we go again....
This subject has been flogged to death so many times that the thread starter needs to seriously learn how to use the SEARCH function...!!!

virgin744
 
User avatar
n229nw
Posts: 2035
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:58 am

I don't want to get sucked into a long tangential discussion and arguments like I did last time there was a thread on this subject (is seems by that nature discussions of this subject end up revolving around comparisons and discussions of many other countries).

Quoting Asturias (Reply 39):
Past treatment of Gypsies in Romania just isn't relevant to this discussion. In Romania today as they are in many European countries, they live outside the society if they can. They are not hunted or killed systematically or discriminated against like Turks do with Kurds today.

Discrimination against Roma (Gypsies) in work, education, and housing was (and remains) on levels way too high for many former communist countries to have been quite "ready" to enter the EU on the human rights front. I'm not saying that that mistake (premature human rights go-ahead) should be made again in Turkey's case, but it does suggest that there are a lot of other fraught issues surrounding Turkey and its relationship to Europe that are hidden behind some of the reasons given for stalling the process of accession talks with Turkey.

For now, I mainly wanted to say:

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 23):
In 20 years Turkey will have more Inhabitants than Germany ! Imagine the poorest country with the most Power ! No way !

Constantin

I just want to call you out for what seems to me outrageous hypocrisy on your part. You are A.net's biggest (naive) cheerleader for Hugo Chavez, but here (and in some other threads) you have made comments about how poor/uneducated/uncultured people are potentially dangerous when in power. So you believe all the resources and decision-making should be forcibly taken away from the educated middle class in Venezuela--but not in Europe, where the educated elite with money and "Christian values" should retain power for the good of society as a whole? So which is it? Do you want to move to Venezuela and give up your jet-setting lifestyle and love of fancy cars so your stuff can be repossessed by Chavez government thugs? Just curious...
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
User avatar
Asturias
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:25 am



Quoting N229NW (Reply 57):
Discrimination against Roma (Gypsies) in work, education, and housing was (and remains) on levels way too high for many former communist countries to have been quite "ready" to enter the EU on the human rights front. I'm not saying that that mistake (premature human rights go-ahead) should be made again in Turkey's case, but it does suggest that there are a lot of other fraught issues surrounding Turkey and its relationship to Europe that are hidden behind some of the reasons given for stalling the process of accession talks with Turkey.

Many Roma emigrated from Europe to America, like so many Europeans did, to find a better future and new life in the new world.

Roma still exist all over Europe. Gitanos, we call them. I'm no expert on them or how they live their lives exactly, but I know that there is no systematic government plan against them.

They are what they are and I'm sure they have to endure racism, prejudice and whatnot, and with full respect of what they went trough in years passed, their current situation in Europe is not comparable with the situation of Kurds in S-E Turkey.

Human rights are an issue Turkey would have to deal with, without question, were they to apply for the EU sometime in the future. However, when they have solved their human rights issues, there is just the next item on the list and then the next and then the next.. it isn't an endless list, but it is a long one. Too long for a proud nation such as Turkey I suspect.

saludos

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Posts: 5741
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:36 am

It's 70 million ( or so ) inhabbitans strong country with different culture than Europe. it will hav enourmous power within the EU and that is what I think people have a problem with.

I for one ( and you know, Norway is not a part of EU ), don't like the idea.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:32 am



Quoting Asturias (Reply 48):
Why you choose to spin it, I don't know. It doesn't make one iota of difference. Turkey has still no claim to be European.

Wrong. It makes a world of a difference. And it makes Turkey a European country.
-

Quoting Asturias (Reply 48):
so Turkey has lost some economic position among the nations of the Middle-East, but how does that affect Turkey's eligibility for EU ascension?

It DOES affect it in so far as the Turkish leadership had to realize that steps are needed to beware Turkey ftrom isolation and from trade handicaps. Right yesterday, Mrs Merkel has convinced Mr Sarkozy to include also the NON-Mediterranean EU-members in the "Mediterranean Union" which in fact is a further hit for the Turks. Shocks indeed may be healthy, sure.
-

Quoting Asturias (Reply 48):
The logic goes something like this: I used to get money from you, but now you are sharing that money with others so my part is smaller. Therefore I have a right to claim more from you. You owe me that.

WRONG. Turkey was not "used to get money", but Turkey was privileged above other Mediterranean nations by its Association-Treaty with the E.U., and now has to see that West European companies might prefer and DO prefer the same products from other suppliers who now also have an Association-Treaty. It does NOT give Turkey whatever rights, but it puts Turkey under some real pressure.
-

Quoting Asturias (Reply 48):
Turkey's interests are indeed better served outside the EU than within it.

Maybe. BUT in order to be in step, Turkey needs far closer links with the E.U. as it has now. My idea for them would be a host of Bilateral Treaties in the way of Switzerland. True, the Bilateral thing is slow and complicated, but it would be exactly the right thing for Turkey who will need a fairly long time to sort out its Kurdish mess. Upon full implementation of such "Bilaterals", a country is defacto INSIDE the E.U. without being a member of the E.U.
-

Quoting Asturias (Reply 49):
Indeed, nor is Turkey as developed as some people think, let alone as consistently developed as some would have you believe. Parts are quite western, most parts are post-apocaplyptic in appearance.

THIS should be familiar to you. Turkey just as Spain is a country with vast territories, with incredible differences between highly sophisticated areas ("quite western") and less affluent ones ("post-apocalyptic in appearance"). The female literacy rate of above 70% in fact is in fact rather a success and a result of the Kemalist republic.
-
You mentioned the fundamentalists at present in government in Turkey. Amazingly enough, it is exactly this Prime Minister who was implemented many reforms and modernisations. So that, whenever his party to all probability will lose its majority in the next parliamentary elections, you can expect to see the man quite prominently in the next coalition government.
-

Quoting Asturias (Reply 51):
Erdogan and his party.. are Islamist sympathizers. They are to Islam what a party composed of George W Bushes and John Aschcrofts are to Evangelism.
--
They are nothing like any ruling party in Europe. Not even comparable. Simple as that.

-
For once, I agree. As long as this government is in office, the road to Europe is blocked. But, whenever his party has a majority in parliament at present, it swept into government with some 30% of the votes, and as the other parties will get into the next elections in a revised way, will lose its absolute majority. As PARTICIPANTS in a new coalition however, Erdogan and his party will be EU-compatible. Except that, as I stated above, Turkey canNOT be accepted as long as the Kurdistan matter is not settled in an acceptable way (whatever this will be).
-

Quoting AM744 (Reply 53):
Hasn´t the EU grown a lot, too fast?

In a rather technical way maybe. BUT you have to see that the "actual" Europe now includes Russia (which will not join the EU for the foreseeable future) and that the E.U. is partially a result of what General Charles De Gaulle termed the "Europe from the Atlantic to the Ural". In the ideas of Messrs Schumann, DeGaulle, Adenauer, Amintore Fanfani etc, the E.U. was NOT a club of "economically and socially qualified" countries but a union of the independent countries on the European Continent. Helmut Schmidt and Valery Giscard d'Estaing on intent structured the Euro in a way that also "NON-Euro" countries (Montenegro, Kosovo and in a way also Turkey) can USE this currency. The two realists realized fairly well, that the expansion of the EU may bring problems, but wanted to have an open door.
-
 
lewis
Posts: 3586
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:00 am



Quoting Asturias (Reply 35):
Such as? Can you name examples relevant to this discussion?

Apart from religion, Turkish culture is very similar to the modern Greek one.
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:34 am



Quoting AM744 (Reply 53):
Hasn´t the EU grown a lot, too fast? Do you, Europeans, feel this policy will pay in the long run?

A very interesting question. The form of the EU has been a struggle between those who wish for depth (e.g. Germany) and those who push for breadth (e.g. the UK). It's no co-incidence that the UK is just about the strongest proponent of Turkish membership, and Germany the strongest opponent.

One area I find interesting here is that some argue that Europe should exclude Turkey because it isn't European enough (though culturally it certainly is). The thinking behind getting Turkey inside is to bind them to European values. There's no blank cheque here, the country must meet the entry criteria, but the point is to ensure the Turkey really is a part of a democratic European continent. If the EU pushes them away in a different direction, then that nation is still going to be on the borders of Europe. If they are shoved into a constitional arrangement that is anaethema to Europe, they are still going to be in the same place. I find it hard to imagine that people really want that. If nothing else, a secular democratic Turkey provides a buffer state.

This still doesn't necessarily mean that you would want Turkish membership, but in the comments about Turkey not being geographically part of Europe except for one small part, there seems to be a real lack of strategic thinking on the part of quite a few.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
LHStarAlliance
Topic Author
Posts: 2096
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:15 pm

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:25 pm



Quoting N229NW (Reply 57):
(naive)

Not everybody who has not the same opinion as you have is naive ..

The People of Venezuela have ELECTED Chavez , we Germans could not deselect the Turks in that situation
Boycott The Olympic Games In Beijing !
 
CXfirst
Posts: 3021
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:13 pm

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:02 pm

I will vote for letting Turkey in, we (Norway) won't be affected to much when it comes to trade and immigrants, but it will boost travel between the two (it is really high already), and some family members of us have a business selling and renting out homes in Turkey for Norwegian holiday goers Big grin

However, I am proud that Norway is not in, and I hope it will stay out for a lot longer (it does not benefit us at all)

-CXfirst
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:29 pm



Quoting Asturias (Reply 58):
I know that there is no systematic government plan against them.

-
There at least WERE systematic government plans against them, for example one of the Swiss Federal Government in the framework of which their children were taken away from them (not suitable environment, bad influences) and given to people interesting in adopting them. That program went on for half a century and was financed by a youth-helping program. There in recent years were various scandals about this.
-
 
Toast
Posts: 1249
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:04 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:39 pm

Yes, I support Turkey's candidacy. The gains far outweigh the potential problems.

While there is no reasonable chance for Turkey to join the EU within the next 10 years, it will eventually, after sorting out a few pressing issues, mostly legal.

I don't care that most of Turkey's territory is in Asia minor. The EU is not a geographic construct. Note that the EU already stretches all the way to South America and Africa. (figure those out yourselves.)
Shit Piss Fuck Cunt Cocksucker Motherfucker Tits
 
User avatar
Asturias
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:15 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 60):
Wrong. It makes a world of a difference. And it makes Turkey a European country.

On the contrary, spinning what I say doesn't make one squat of difference. It doesn't change fundamental facts. A minuscule geographic part of Turkey is in geographic Europe and it doesn't matter either way. It doesn't make Turkey European any more than Spain is African and France is South American or Iceland North-American.

So that doesn't make Turkey a European country!

Most of the Turkish population is concentrated on the west side of Turkey in the trade cities that do business with the European countries. Constantinople is still an important trade city despite centuries of backwards rule. It should be at least as important as London, had it been left alone by Muslims.. but I digress. Seems to me Muslim have the anti-Midas touch. I have no idea why this is, but unless they're actually selling gold, they just can't seem to make anything out of it!

Regardless having ransacked Constantinople doesn't make Turkey a European country.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 60):
It DOES affect it in so far as the Turkish leadership had to realize that steps are needed to beware Turkey ftrom isolation and from trade handicaps. Right yesterday, Mrs Merkel has convinced Mr Sarkozy to include also the NON-Mediterranean EU-members in the "Mediterranean Union" which in fact is a further hit for the Turks. Shocks indeed may be healthy, sure.

Indeed it should shake up the Turkish leaders, if a lot of trade is sliding out of their hands and into the hands of their neighbors, however it is of no concern to anyone but Turkey. I'm sure any country is happy to trade with Turkey, but if they can get a better deal elsewhere, then they're not going to think twice before leaving Turkey in the dust.

This applies to all trade, everywhere. So what? What is your point? I don't know nor care what Turkey has to do to fix this. They're over 18, so they can take care of themselves.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 60):
WRONG. Turkey was not "used to get money", but Turkey was privileged above other Mediterranean nations by its Association-Treaty with the E.U., and now has to see that West European companies might prefer and DO prefer the same products from other suppliers who now also have an Association-Treaty. It does NOT give Turkey whatever rights, but it puts Turkey under some real pressure.

The way you presented the case, it sure sounded like there wasn't anything more natural than Turkey's claim to the trade they had before and lost in competition with other countries.. I'm glad that isn't the case, because that would be both sad and funny at the same time.

It's good we agree that Turkey doesn't have any particular rights, because for a moment it sounded like you were claiming they did have some special rights. I agree that if Turkey has lost trade then that puts a lot of pressure on them and the natural thing for any healthy country would be to make reforms to try and get some of that back or find new trade elsewhere.

Maybe Turkey should try option number two there? Trade elsewhere? The way I read it the EU has indicated that there is no 'special' agreement or relationship with Turkey over the other countries in the Middle-East or Near-Asia. Food for thought.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 60):
Maybe. BUT in order to be in step, Turkey needs far closer links with the E.U. as it has now. My idea for them would be a host of Bilateral Treaties in the way of Switzerland. True, the Bilateral thing is slow and complicated, but it would be exactly the right thing for Turkey who will need a fairly long time to sort out its Kurdish mess. Upon full implementation of such "Bilaterals", a country is defacto INSIDE the E.U. without being a member of the E.U.

Indeed, if you insist on the path closer to the EU rather than closer to the other Middle-Eastern countries, then yes. I agree, Turkey could make bilateral agreements with the EU which would certainly tighten the ties with the Union. However the only way Turkey could make those bilateral agreement like Switzerland and the rest of the EFTA countries, it would have to elevate itself to becoming one of the top 20 wealthy and developed countries in the entire world. Again, while in theory such agreements would be possible, they are far out of reach. How far? Not in your lifetime, I fear.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 60):
THIS should be familiar to you. Turkey just as Spain is a country with vast territories, with incredible differences between highly sophisticated areas ("quite western") and less affluent ones ("post-apocalyptic in appearance"). The female literacy rate of above 70% in fact is in fact rather a success and a result of the Kemalist republic.

You are trying to spin it so that female literacy over 70% is some sort of a success? Well, it isn't. It's pathetic. No offense to Turks or Turkey, but it really is pathetic! It is something that reflects how culturally different Turks are. It used to be *less*! Now it's almost 80%.. not quite.. may be in the next decade.

As for comparing Spain and Turkey by infrastructure and spread of wealth, it can't be done. Spain and France.. they can be compared that way. Turkey and Lebanon.. they can be compared that way. If you think you can compare Spain and Turkey that way, then you don't know one or both countries.

For spin-reasons I can see why you'd want to compare them, but back in reality.. nope. Spin, spin, spin.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 60):
You mentioned the fundamentalists at present in government in Turkey. Amazingly enough, it is exactly this Prime Minister who was implemented many reforms and modernisations. So that, whenever his party to all probability will lose its majority in the next parliamentary elections, you can expect to see the man quite prominently in the next coalition government.

Indeed, the current regime has EU membership as an unwavering goal. They just happen to be of a political leaning that could never be part of the EU. It is concerning. Erdogan and Gul want to mesh politics and religion. They've said as much, but at the same time they want to become EU members. In the opposition, far more healthy secularists can be found, but they don't want to become EU members. Oh well, looks like EU membership isn't in cards, if you will.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 60):
For once, I agree. As long as this government is in office, the road to Europe is blocked. But, whenever his party has a majority in parliament at present, it swept into government with some 30% of the votes, and as the other parties will get into the next elections in a revised way, will lose its absolute majority. As PARTICIPANTS in a new coalition however, Erdogan and his party will be EU-compatible. Except that, as I stated above, Turkey canNOT be accepted as long as the Kurdistan matter is not settled in an acceptable way (whatever this will be).

I agree with your general sentiment, but I'd like to add that while Turkey can't be accepted before the Kurdistan matter has found an acceptable solution, there are many many other things that prevent Turkey from being accepted. I'm just saying this, because reading your post is could be interpreted like the *only* thing preventing Turkish EU membership is how to solve the Kurdistan issue. While a huge issue, it is only one of many.

saludos

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
User avatar
Asturias
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:26 pm



Quoting Lewis (Reply 61):
Apart from religion, Turkish culture is very similar to the modern Greek one.

Does Greek culture has trouble teaching women to read? Seriously though, can you eloborate how the Turkish and Greek cultures are very similar.

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 64):
I will vote for letting Turkey in, we (Norway) won't be affected to much when it comes to trade and immigrants, but it will boost travel between the two (it is really high already), and some family members of us have a business selling and renting out homes in Turkey for Norwegian holiday goers 

That is so cute! Except everything you said, except the things about your family probably are wrong. Norway will indeed be affected when it comes to trade and immigrants. While Norway is not in the EU, it is in EFTA and Schengen. One is a free trade association between the countries of EFTA and the EU and the other allows for free migration of all people with the Schengen area without passport and automatic right for employment.

In other words, whatever effect Turkish membership will have on the EU countries, it will have exactly the same effect on the EFTA countries.

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 64):
However, I am proud that Norway is not in, and I hope it will stay out for a lot longer (it does not benefit us at all)

Good for you, but now that Iceland is starting mechanisms to join the EU, let's just say that your hope may not be realized.

saludos

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
User avatar
Asturias
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:54 pm



Quoting Banco (Reply 62):
It's no co-incidence that the UK is just about the strongest proponent of Turkish membership, and Germany the strongest opponent.

Actually, it's Austria with 81% against (2006) which is the country most strongly opposing Turkish membership. Somewhat ironically, Romania is the most positive towards Turkish membership with 66% with (2006).

Quoting Banco (Reply 62):
One area I find interesting here is that some argue that Europe should exclude Turkey because it isn't European enough (though culturally it certainly is).

Can you give any example of these alleged cultural connections, because other than musical and culinary connections with Albania (apparently), nobody has demonstrated a real connection. They use cell-phones, internet (albeit less than Romania) and listen to pop-music. So do all countries. What connects Turkey to Europe, culturally.  Confused

Quoting Banco (Reply 62):
The thinking behind getting Turkey inside is to bind them to European values. There's no blank cheque here, the country must meet the entry criteria, but the point is to ensure the Turkey really is a part of a democratic European continent.

Yes, that is one way of thought, but they've demonstrated through being a more or less secular democracy-ish nation since the 1920s, that that's what they are going to stay. The Turkish elite will still send their kids to European private schools and the country will continue to get support from the US when needed.

The current situation is acceptable, from a European standpoint. Already the Turkish model has lasted longer than Communism, so that's some sort of success, I guess. If nothing else it demonstrates that the Turkish republic is here to stay in its current form.

Quoting Banco (Reply 62):
If the EU pushes them away in a different direction, then that nation is still going to be on the borders of Europe.

True, but were Turkey part of the EU then Iran would be on the borders of Europe. Will that then be the next member? Since you're approaching this so pragmatically, I have to ask: which would be better:

1. That the border of the EU to the Middle-East is Turkey - or -
2. That the border of the EU in the Middle-East is Iraq, Iran and Syria (among other smaller nations)

Pragmatic answer, please.

Quoting Banco (Reply 62):
If they are shoved into a constitional arrangement that is anaethema to Europe, they are still going to be in the same place. I find it hard to imagine that people really want that. If nothing else, a secular democratic Turkey provides a buffer state.

A secular democratic Turkey is what we've had for nearly a century and although a generally Muslim country, Turks are also generally adamant on having the country secular. Ironically it is moving *from* secularism under the current administrations and yet *towards* the EU. Can they have it both ways? That depends.

Today Turkey is that buffer you speak of and there are no indications that situation is about to change in the foreseeable future.

Quoting Banco (Reply 62):
This still doesn't necessarily mean that you would want Turkish membership, but in the comments about Turkey not being geographically part of Europe except for one small part, there seems to be a real lack of strategic thinking on the part of quite a few.

Lack of strategic thinking? Interesting, perhaps you'd like to explain how the discussion about Turkey not being in Europe excepting a small part is "a real lack of strategic thinking". I am curious, because it seems to be drawn from nowhere.

saludos

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
User avatar
Asturias
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:00 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 66):
The EU is not a geographic construct. Note that the EU already stretches all the way to South America and Africa. (figure those out yourselves.)

Indeed the EU is not a geographic construct. Dragging up Ceuda and Melilla (possible Canarias) and French Guinea to prove that point is interesting and you are correct.

So it isn't, but what sort of construct is it then?

In other words, you've dismissed geography as any real limits of the EU, what are then the limits of the EU. What elements decide what is EU or potentially EU and what decides it isn't.

What defines the EU then and how does Turkey fall within that definition?

saludos

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
airfoilsguy
Posts: 3485
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:28 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:12 pm

If the turkey wants into the EU then let it in. Just don't discriminate when the ducks, chickens and fully laden sparrows want in as well.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:18 pm



Quoting Asturias (Reply 67):
option number two there? Trade elsewhere?

No real option. They of course HAVE lots of trade with the Arab World, with Central Asia, with Iran, with Pakistan and India, and with the Far East, but Western Europe will remain the mainstay of Turkish trade

Quoting Asturias (Reply 67):
if you insist on the path closer to the EU rather than closer to the other Middle-Eastern countries

they are close to Europe, but their neighbours are the Arab World, and they have nothing to do with the Arab World and the Arab League.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 67):
Spain and France.. they can be compared that way

Hardly. France is in the European top league, while Spain is on the same level as Italy, so sorry

Quoting Asturias (Reply 67):
Turkey and Lebanon.. they can be compared that way

a strange comparison, a very large country and a rather small one. Lebanon more sophisticated, but Turkey far more poweful
 
AM744
Posts: 1471
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 11:05 pm

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:31 pm



Quoting Asturias (Reply 69):
Actually, it's Austria with 81% against (2006) which is the country most strongly opposing Turkish membership.

I'm not surprised. Otomans and Austro hungarians never got along very well. Maybe there are still some open scars.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 69):
Somewhat ironically, Romania is the most positive towards Turkish membership with 66% with (2006).

Perhaps Turkey, Romania and other recent members, being roughly in the same development stage, could form a political block within the EU that protects their interests regarding labour, agriculture, etc.
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:44 pm



Quoting Asturias (Reply 69):
Can you give any example of these alleged cultural connections, because other than musical and culinary connections with Albania (apparently), nobody has demonstrated a real connection. They use cell-phones, internet (albeit less than Romania) and listen to pop-music. So do all countries. What connects Turkey to Europe, culturally.

Just the last thousand years or so of history. I don't really see how you can deny this, to be honest.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 69):
True, but were Turkey part of the EU then Iran would be on the borders of Europe.

OK, and you'd rather a hostile or unstable Turkey was on the borders of Europe instead, would you? As the saying goes, better on the inside pissing out, than the outside pissing in.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 69):
Pragmatic answer, please.

The wishing for Turkish inclusion is all about pragmatism! It is about ensuring security, about enshrining the values of EU members more widely. Your own country is a perfect example of that, a liberal democracy that is thriving, but was a fascist dictatorship in my lifetime. No-one could possibly imagine Spain ever returning to such a state of affairs, it is utterly inconceivable. The pragmatic point about Turkey is that once inside, EU membership would have the same effect. Again, this is no blank cheque, Turkey must meet entry criteria, but equally they must be aware that upon meeting them they will get that entry.

I can't remotely imagine how isolating Turkey so that it becomes a nation sandwiched between the EU and the Middle East is possibly in the interests of any of us. Do you want them to turn to the likes of Iran for partnership?

Quoting Asturias (Reply 69):
Lack of strategic thinking? Interesting, perhaps you'd like to explain how the discussion about Turkey not being in Europe excepting a small part is "a real lack of strategic thinking". I am curious, because it seems to be drawn from nowhere.

See all the points above. The fact that the majority of Turkey is located in Asia Minor is so unimportant as to be not worth bothering with. Surely, as a European, you want security on your borders, you want so-called "European" values entrenched and extended? Please do tell me how forcing Turkey into alliances and partnerships with their neighbours to the east remotely makes things better for any of us?
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
User avatar
Asturias
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:50 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 72):
No real option. They of course HAVE lots of trade with the Arab World, with Central Asia, with Iran, with Pakistan and India, and with the Far East, but Western Europe will remain the mainstay of Turkish trade

Granted it isn't an option to completely move away from trade with the EU for Turkey, but it may be in Turkey's best interest to diversify more. The Arab league is but one entity and certainly Iran isn't Arab now is it? Try to increase business with the US, they're always looking for relatively cheap labor.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 72):
they are close to Europe, but their neighbours are the Arab World, and they have nothing to do with the Arab World and the Arab League.

Turkey just finished an invasion into Iraq, which I personally would call one HELL of a connection with the Arab world. Besides, denying a connection between Turkey and the Arab world is disingenuous at best.

I'll just dismiss that fantastic claim right now. You see, everyone has connections to the Arab world. Some more than others. Those with the strongest connections often invade there when convenient.

Turkey also condemns Israel every time it can, to be on the same side as the Arab world. Not only is there a tie between the Arab world and Turkey, but it is a strong tie. But you know this.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 72):
Hardly. France is in the European top league, while Spain is on the same level as Italy, so sorry

Hahaha your musulmán jokes are very foreign and strange to me. It makes me laugh at you instead of with you! As it is said: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

You just removed all doubt. The facts are all there to find, if you so wish. Spain and France are very comparable countries. The mess in the Middle-East makes comparisons very difficult, but Turkey and Lebanon are a pretty good match. Kind of like Norway and Iceland.

Don't be sorry, you just made me laugh!

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 72):
a strange comparison, a very large country and a rather small one. Lebanon more sophisticated, but Turkey far more poweful

I wasn't comparing square kilometers.

saludos

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
Toast
Posts: 1249
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:04 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:09 pm



Quoting Asturias (Reply 75):
Turkey also condemns Israel every time it can

Turkey is an ally of Israel. The Israeli air force trains in Turkey. But criticism is meted out when necessary, as it should be.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 70):
what sort of construct is it then?

The EU is a state of mind. Liberty, secular democracy, common citizenship, common basic legal framework, equality, free migration flows, common market for goods and services, compromise, tight economic and cultural cooperation - that's what the EU stands for, and there's nothing in these ideals that Turkey is unable or unwilling to accept. Some matters still need ironing out, but Turkey is, as far as I'm concerned, fundamentally a free and developed country with fantastic potential that membership in the EU would help develop further and faster.

Mustafa Kemal was not only a great Turk, but a great European as well, and today's republic, his legacy, should have joined its rightful place in Europe long ago.
Shit Piss Fuck Cunt Cocksucker Motherfucker Tits
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:13 pm



Quoting Asturias (Reply 75):
but it may be in Turkey's best interest to diversify more.

You could say the same for a lot of EU countries. Some of them have very low levels of non-EU trade. Besides, Britain is a perfect example of an EU member that trades globally anyway - the majority of British trade is not with Europe. Diversification is hardly a barrier to EU membership, though I guess in Britain's case you might argue that it produces a less than whole-hearted member.  Wink

Quoting Asturias (Reply 75):
Turkey just finished an invasion into Iraq, which I personally would call one HELL of a connection with the Arab world.

Mmm. So did Britain, Italy, Spain, Poland, the Czech Republic....
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
User avatar
Asturias
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:30 pm



Quoting Banco (Reply 74):
Just the last thousand years or so of history. I don't really see how you can deny this, to be honest.

Yes, indeed? Examples please. I don't really see how you can *claim* this! You say there is a real cultural connection, something really European about Turkey and Turkish culture, you say I need only look at the last thousand years or so of history.

Yet you don't name one good example. Heck you didn't even name one *bad* example. Nothing. Now that's making a good solid argument!

Don't worry about it, none of the people who have made the same claim or similar in this thread have actually delivered one single solid example. Not that one example would be sufficient, but at least then they wouldn't sound so biased.

Your claim of undeniable cultural connections for the last thousand years isn't just a claim, not just something you want to be true.. is it?

Quoting Banco (Reply 74):
OK, and you'd rather a hostile or unstable Turkey was on the borders of Europe instead, would you? As the saying goes, better on the inside pissing out, than the outside pissing in.

That must be an English saying. It certainly sounds like it. Regardless, Turkey has since its inception been secular and democratic-like. Why are you claiming that they are about to become hostile? Is that wishful thinking or supported by facts?

Quoting Banco (Reply 74):
The wishing for Turkish inclusion is all about pragmatism! It is about ensuring security, about enshrining the values of EU members more widely. Your own country is a perfect example of that, a liberal democracy that is thriving, but was a fascist dictatorship in my lifetime. No-one could possibly imagine Spain ever returning to such a state of affairs, it is utterly inconceivable. The pragmatic point about Turkey is that once inside, EU membership would have the same effect. Again, this is no blank cheque, Turkey must meet entry criteria, but equally they must be aware that upon meeting them they will get that entry.

Indeed mr Pragmatic! Your argument is pragmatilicious! So now that we have ensnared the Turks and made them into a shining example of a democratic republic like my dear Spain, what next?

I mean, Iran, Iraq or Syria? Armenia? All of them at once?

Well as cute as your idea is, it is based on false premise. The EU has never changed a country from a limping pseudo-democracy to an actual democracy. Countries have chosen to reform to fulfill EU conditions for entry. Some countries, such as Poland and the Baltic states, went themselves in just about a decade, through immense self-imposed reforms and at the end of that time they were eligible for the EU.

Turkey has since the 50s been half-heartedly making 'reforms', mostly to imitate the various European countries to a degree that pleased the cultural Turkish elite, but also to make some business agreements more likely to happen. Ever since that time the Union, which would later become the EU, was always a desirable object to the Turkish elite. After more than half a century, all Turkey has to show for itself is a handful of impotent afterthoughts of reforms and a worse economy and social system than Eastern-European countries as they emerged from under the Iron Curtain!

In a mere decade most of the former Eastern Bloc countries have achieved more than Turkey has in over half a century!

Impressive in its own weird way, but demonstrative of that we aren't changing Turkey. The EU isn't going to, it never has. Either countries make reforms on by their lonesome, or nothing will happen.

You brought up Spain, of which I'm sure you're very familiar with. Regardless, just for the rest of the people, Spain was a dictatorship until 1975. Spain joined the EU in 1986. In that decade Spain went through many self imposed reforms, but not under pressure from the EU which was then called the European Communities. This was before Maastricht and the EC was really just a fancy Free Trade association with some political perks. It sure wasn't doing any nation building.

Spain was rebuilt and reformed up to EC standards by the Spanish people because they wanted to!

Quoting Banco (Reply 74):
I can't remotely imagine how isolating Turkey so that it becomes a nation sandwiched between the EU and the Middle East is possibly in the interests of any of us. Do you want them to turn to the likes of Iran for partnership?

I see, so it's either full EU membership or we just build a tall wall between the EU and Turkey, cut the phone lines and never talk with them again?

It isn't isolation OR full membership. Why would you think that? As for Iran, there already is an active connection between Turkey and Iran. What did you think?

Turkey is not a nation sandwiched between the EU and the Middle East, it is the westernmost country of the Middle East. They have good ties to their neighbors, both to the East and West. Naturally. They are not 'sandwiched' between anything. They're part of the Middle East, or Asia Minor or whatever you want to call it. Since Turkey can't physically be moved elsewhere and since they've not been complaining about their geographical position to this day, I don't see a problem.

Quoting Banco (Reply 74):
See all the points above. The fact that the majority of Turkey is located in Asia Minor is so unimportant as to be not worth bothering with. Surely, as a European, you want security on your borders, you want so-called "European" values entrenched and extended? Please do tell me how forcing Turkey into alliances and partnerships with their neighbours to the east remotely makes things better for any of us?

I want the borders entrenched and defined, not expanded. They already span Europe and as Toast pointed out, also some stamp-sized colonies in S-America and Africa.

Turkey has never been in an alliance with European countries and our relationship is doing very well. We have tourists going to Turkey from the EU, we get cheap labor from Turkey to the EU, we have good dialogue with Turkey.
Turkey has good dialogue with the EU, as it has with Iran, Syria, Lebanon and in the future when the dust settles, Iraq.

I'll tell you, quite pragmatically, that having the border of the EU to the South-East where it currently is, serves the EU very well, now and in the foreseeable future. However, that's just one of many reasons Turkey isn't already an EU member and probably never will be.

saludos

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
Toast
Posts: 1249
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:04 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:45 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 78):
You say there is a real cultural connection, something really European about Turkey and Turkish culture, you say I need only look at the last thousand years or so of history.

Yet you don't name one good example.

Banco assumed, apparently erroneously, that you would have at least basic knowledge of the history of Byzantium and the Ottoman Empire. Please do yourself a favor and read up on this - no-one with even a passing knowledge of Turkish history would say Turkey has nothing to do with Europe.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 78):
Turkey has never been in an alliance with European countries

Huh???

[Edited 2008-03-04 11:47:56]
Shit Piss Fuck Cunt Cocksucker Motherfucker Tits
 
User avatar
Asturias
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:54 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 76):
Turkey is an ally of Israel. The Israeli air force trains in Turkey. But criticism is meted out when necessary, as it should be.

An ally of Israel isn't making claims like this:

"PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who on Sunday said that Israel's attacks were killing "babies and civilians" with "no humanitarian or legal justification", held phone conversations with both Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, during which time he asked the parties to show restraint and promised Turkey's support in re-launching the peace process. Erdogan also voiced his complaint to Olmert that Turkey's transportations of humanitarian aid for Palestinians were not reaching their destination."

At least, with allies like that, Israel doesn't need enemies. See that's the PM of an 'ally' talking, making demands of Israel. Do you see the US President, an indisputable ally of Israel, make any similar claims or demands?

Turkey is an Israeli ally in name only. I guess they're trying to stay neutral, if anything, without much success.

Quoting Toast (Reply 76):
The EU is a state of mind. Liberty, secular democracy, common citizenship, common basic legal framework, equality, free migration flows, common market for goods and services, compromise, tight economic and cultural cooperation - that's what the EU stands for, and there's nothing in these ideals that Turkey is unable or unwilling to accept. Some matters still need ironing out, but Turkey is, as far as I'm concerned, fundamentally a free and developed country with fantastic potential that membership in the EU would help develop further and faster.

Yes, yes that's all nice but seriously... I asked how you defined the EU so one could logically decide what is EU and what is not EU. Can you answer that question? How can we decide whether country X is eligible for the EU.

Simple question.

The definition you made wasn't very clear, nor always correct. To rectify one or two things:

The EU is of course not a state of mind, it is political and economic community of twenty-seven member states.
The EU is not a secular democracy, it is a community of democratic countries, some secular - some not so secular.
The EU does not offer a common citizenship, only that different citizenships are treated equal, more or less.
The EU is a Free Trade association, so under that fall legal frameworks, migration flows, common market, economic co-operation and possibly cultural as well.

What we end up with, according to your definition is a Free Trade association with political interchange. That is more or less what the EU is, but it doesn't define it.

It's like I asked you to define a motor engine and you said it gave power to a car, makes it go forward, makes noise and pollutes.

Absolutely correct and absolutely non-defining. What makes it run? How do you build one? How do you maintain it?

So how do you define the EU. How can you, with a set of framework, decide whether country X belongs in the EU or not?

Quoting Toast (Reply 76):
Mustafa Kemal was not only a great Turk, but a great European as well, and today's republic, his legacy, should have joined its rightful place in Europe long ago.

I'm sure he was a great man and certainly a great European, as is the entire Turkish elite. Always has been. As for your conclusion, some argue that it is part of Europe, many say it isn't. That's neither here nor there, we're not talking about Europe are we? As per your witty note, the EU isn't just in Europe, and it's the EU that is the topic of this discussion.

I think in most respects, you've made yourself absolutely clear, except you haven't been able to define the EU yet. Still you know Turkey belongs in it. That has to mean you have a definition ready. No?

saludos

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:56 pm



Quoting Asturias (Reply 35):
You say that geographical placement dictates that Turkey is European, but it doesn't.

Europe is a geographic entity. If part of the main body of Turkey is geographically in Europe then it is European... by definition. If it doesn't fit in with other European countries politically, culturally, ethnically, economically, in legal matters, etc. then that's another matter but it doesn't stop it being European... and Asian.

Yes, I'm being pedantic. I don't necessarily disagree with all of your reasons for Turkey not being admitted to the EU but with your claim that "Turkey is not European".

Quoting Asturias (Reply 78):
Why are you claiming that they are about to become hostile?

Maybe we should put this down to a language issue. The phrase Banco used means "is it better to have them as friends on good terms or to piss them off by excluding them?". Perhaps that will be easier to understand. He's not saying they will become hostile but that they might get pissed off and turn in the opposite direction for support if we tell them to get stuffed.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 78):
Is that wishful thinking

Clearly not, from the rest of Banco's post.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 78):
They are not 'sandwiched' between anything. They're part of the Middle East, or Asia Minor or whatever you want to call it.

And part of Europe... by definition.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 78):
Since Turkey can't physically be moved elsewhere and since they've not been complaining about their geographical position to this day

Exactly. Their geographical position is in Asia and Europe. You can't wish that away.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 78):
Turkey has never been in an alliance with European countries

NATO? No?
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:58 pm



Quoting Asturias (Reply 78):
Yet you don't name one good example. Heck you didn't even name one *bad* example. Nothing. Now that's making a good solid argument!

You could always go and read a book, you know. That Turkey has been part of European history for the last thousand years is little different to stating that Britain has been part of European history for the last thousand years, it's just that Britain had close involvement in western Europe with which you're more familiar. You wouldn't ask me to justify a claim that Britain has been closely involved in European history because it's self-evident. Same with Turkey.

Really, I don't see why I should have to provide examples to cover up a general ignorance on your part. History is there to be discovered. Go and look.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 78):
none of the people who have made the same claim or similar in this thread have actually delivered one single solid example

Has it ever occurred to you that it's rather hard to debate such things with someone so spectacularly ignorant about such matters? I tell you what, start with the Ottoman Empire in a Google search. That will help you over four or five hundred years of history and work backwards from there.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 78):
That must be an English saying. It certainly sounds like it.

American actually. But it is rather likely to be an English language saying, given that this is an English language forum.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 78):
Why are you claiming that they are about to become hostile? Is that wishful thinking or supported by facts?

I haven't claimed any such thing. But it is normal to try to ensure that you don't create the circumstances where such things might happen in future. A cursory reading of pretty much any history would demonstrate that. Look at Iran, and what happened there (I'll let you work that one out).

Quoting Asturias (Reply 78):
I mean, Iran, Iraq or Syria? Armenia? All of them at once?

Why not, if they became liberal, stable, secular democratic states?

Quoting Asturias (Reply 78):
The EU has never changed a country from a limping pseudo-democracy to an actual democracy. Countries have chosen to reform to fulfill EU conditions for entry.

Er....yes. Which is what I was saying. I have now stated about three times I think that Turkey must satisfy the criteria before entry. Yet you seem to be under the impression that I am advocating getting them in tomorrow morning and sorting stuff out later. Nope. Haven't said that, don't think that. But provided Turkey satisfies the conditions for entry, then they should come in.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 78):
but demonstrative of that we aren't changing Turkey.

So long as certain countries hold the view that they'd wait till hell froze over for Turkey to get membership, that is hardly surprising. Without the incentive of entry why would you see constitutional change ramped up?

Quoting Asturias (Reply 78):
Spain was rebuilt and reformed up to EC standards by the Spanish people because they wanted to!

I agree. But do remember that for the Spanish people there was the knowledge that entry was certain once those reforms were complete. Turkey is not in that position.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 78):
As for Iran, there already is an active connection between Turkey and Iran. What did you think?

Only inasmuch as there is between any two nations. If Iran becomes the dominant regional player, and Turkey is left out in the cold, what do you expect them to do?

Quoting Asturias (Reply 78):
I don't see a problem.

And this is the lack of strategic thinking I was referring to. You don't see a problem because it doesn't seem to affect you in western Europe. Turkey is a secular democracy, it could be much better, undoubtedly, but it is one nevertheless. Yet you think they have more in common with the basketcases, dictatorships and theocracies to their east, purely because of their location? That's just peculiar!

Quoting Asturias (Reply 78):
I want the borders entrenched and defined, not expanded.

Why? If European values are so good, why not expand them? Why not encourage others to adopt them? Why this Fortress Europe mentality?

Quoting Asturias (Reply 78):
Turkey has never been in an alliance with European countries

Not true. Not historically (you'll find this out when you do your research on the Ottoman Empire), and not now. As a NATO member your country has an alliance with Turkey and a mutual defence clause.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 78):
I'll tell you, quite pragmatically, that having the border of the EU to the South-East where it currently is, serves the EU very well, now and in the foreseeable future. However, that's just one of many reasons Turkey isn't already an EU member and probably never will be.

This does sound a bit like I'm Alright Jack, Sod the Rest of You. A successful Turkey is in our own interests. And if Turkey is successful, liberal and democratic, why on earth you wouldn't want them in anyway is simply bizarre.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
LHStarAlliance
Topic Author
Posts: 2096
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:15 pm

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:07 pm



Quoting Banco (Reply 82):
Why not, if they became liberal, stable, secular democratic states?

Yea we could also let the Australians , the Americans maybe also the Brazilians in ! And why not Fiji or Mozambique ?!

Come on .. Then don't name it European ! Name it UN.2

Constantin
Boycott The Olympic Games In Beijing !
 
User avatar
Asturias
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:11 pm



Quoting Banco (Reply 77):
You could say the same for a lot of EU countries. Some of them have very low levels of non-EU trade.

Could I? Really! Countries primarily trading with each other in a free-trade association!?! That's *unheard* of.

Honestly, I'd expect the largest part of every EU nation's business to be with the rest of the EU. That's what it's for, after all. The common-market thing. You know.

Quoting Banco (Reply 77):
Besides, Britain is a perfect example of an EU member that trades globally anyway - the majority of British trade is not with Europe.

The value of Great Britain's non-EU trade is about 30% less than that of its intra-EU trade. A perfect example indeed. Just not in this dimension.

Quoting Banco (Reply 77):
Diversification is hardly a barrier to EU membership, though I guess in Britain's case you might argue that it produces a less than whole-hearted member.

You are correct, diversification isn't a barrier to EU membership, and in Britain's case I might argue it produces daydreams and fantasies about more diversification than is actually happening.  Smile

Seriously, my suggestion for Turkish diversification was simply an idea to regain some of the business lost with Europe. Just an idea in a discussion. Worth exactly that.

Quoting Banco (Reply 77):
Mmm. So did Britain, Italy, Spain, Poland, the Czech Republic....

Indeed, but I never claimed these countries didn't have any relations with the Arabs. All these countries have relations with Arab countries. The fact that they attacked Iraq with the US, supports my argument.

saludos

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:14 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 83):
Yea we could also let the Australians , the Americans maybe also the Brazilians in ! And why not Fiji or Mozambique ?!

Come on .. Then don't name it European ! Name it UN.2

 confused  I'm not sure what the point of that was. A significant part of Turkey is in Europe. It borders other European countries. The countries you named at random don't.

Perhaps one day it will extend to countries that are completely outside Europe and it's name will change but let's not over-dramatise because of one European country that also happens to spill into Asia.
 
RobertNL070
Posts: 4164
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:29 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:15 pm



Quoting Asturias (Reply 78):
Turkey has never been in an alliance with European countries

Ludicrous.

http://www.coe.int/T/ES/Com/About_Coe/Member_states/default.asp

A list of the Member States of the Council of Europe - in Spanish. You'll notice that Turkey joined the Council of Europe in 1949 ... some twenty-eight years before Spain did  duck 

I suggest you follow Banco's sound advice.
Born to be wild ...... until about 9 p.m.
Home = RTM, Rotterdam The Hague.
 
User avatar
Asturias
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:18 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 79):
Banco assumed, apparently erroneously, that you would have at least basic knowledge of the history of Byzantium and the Ottoman Empire. Please do yourself a favor and read up on this - no-one with even a passing knowledge of Turkish history would say Turkey has nothing to do with Europe.

How droll.. not worthy of a reply. I asked for examples with Turkey and Europe and I get snide remarks instead of an answer - which apparently should be just about the simplest thing in the world because the answer is so obvious.

Quoting Toast (Reply 79):
Huh???

Indeed, Turkey has never been in alliance with Europe. No, I'm not talking about military alliances nor postal and telecommunication alliances. I'm talking about actual committments. Obviously they haven't been in the EU, but something like the Nordic Region.

Look it up smartypants.

saludos

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
lewis
Posts: 3586
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:21 pm



Quoting Asturias (Reply 68):
Does Greek culture has trouble teaching women to read? Seriously though, can you eloborate how the Turkish and Greek cultures are very similar.

Women had trouble reading in Greece but we've been members of the EU for so long that things have changed. But go to the smallest and most remote villages in both Turkey and Greece or to most countryside areas and you will see that people are equally conservative, the music they listen to is similar, the food they eat is the same and so is what they do in everyday life along with their attitude and way of thinking. Put religion aside and,as i said before, the culture is the same with Greece, an EU member. Women and reading are part of the effects of religion on the population, so is the low standard of human rights. Don't forget that Greece was under military command less than 10 years before joining the EU and things were much much worse here.
 
LHStarAlliance
Topic Author
Posts: 2096
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:15 pm

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:21 pm



Quoting Asturias (Reply 87):
Indeed, Turkey has never been in alliance with Europe. No, I'm not talking about military alliances nor postal and telecommunication alliances. I'm talking about actual committments. Obviously they haven't been in the EU, but something like the Nordic Region.

Asturias says the truth , there has never been an alliance between the EU-Turkey .

And there has never been a "promise" of the EU to Turkey that they'll join one day .. as they always try to tell us !


Constantin
Boycott The Olympic Games In Beijing !
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:27 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 83):
Come on .. Then don't name it European ! Name it UN.2

Well, quite possibly. But since in that case we're talking about something that might well be a hundred or two hundred years hence, I was merely making the point that in the very long term, why exclude such a possibility on the narrow grounds of geography. It's hardly a suggestion for the morning. As indicated elsewhere, the question of Turkey is a European one, long before such a consideration for other nations enters the equation.

As an aside to this, I can make a very strong case for saying this century is one marking the decline of the west in world terms. The rise of China and India (to name but two) is strongly indicative of a shift away from Europe and North America in the axis of world affairs. To try to cut ourselves off rather than try to get our own values to be the world paradigm seems to me to be self-defeating.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
LHStarAlliance
Topic Author
Posts: 2096
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:15 pm

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:31 pm



Quoting Banco (Reply 90):
Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 83):
Come on .. Then don't name it European ! Name it UN.2

Well, quite possibly. But since in that case we're talking about something that might well be a hundred or two hundred years hence,

If this could happen in "hundred or two hundred" years , then Canada would be 51th State for 100 years now !


Constantin
Boycott The Olympic Games In Beijing !
 
User avatar
Asturias
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:33 pm



Quoting David L (Reply 81):
Europe is a geographic entity. If part of the main body of Turkey is geographically in Europe then it is European... by definition.

I understand what you are saying, but it isn't really that cut and dry. Many countries are on geographic borders, sometimes they are split in two. Still there is no confusion or debate about to which continent these countries belong to.

ME AVN FAN and I have mentioned Malta and Cyprus as good examples of European countries geographically in Africa and Asia, respectively. Yet, they are European. I've mentioned Iceland, half of which is geographically N-America, but without debate a European country. Turkey, has unquestionably, a minuscule geographic part in Europe, but the rest - 97% - is in Asia. It isn't both European and Asian, it is one of the Asian border countries to Europe. Some will debate that, but there you go.

Quoting David L (Reply 81):
He's not saying they will become hostile but that they might get pissed off and turn in the opposite direction for support if we tell them to get stuffed.

Turkey isn't displeased with the current relations it has to the EU and the rest of Europe. Many Turks believe that Turkey is better off outside the EU and maintain the status quo. These are the secularists in particular.

The process is so glacial anyway that Turks wouldn't even notice whether they were applying for the EU or not, in other words there isn't consensus at home for Turkish EU membership and the process is so slow that it might just be nicer to tell them the reality of the situation. How do you think they'll feel when their bid for entry is vetoed?

It's more prudent to let them go nice and slow instead of a punch in the face.

Quoting David L (Reply 81):
NATO? No?

NATO is far larger than Europe, Turkey is also part of the UN. I was talking about specific Turkey-Europe alliance akin to the Nordic Council. Could be a Eastern-Mediterranean council made up of Turkey, Greece, Lebanon, Israel maybe. Something like that. It has never existed.

saludos

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:38 pm



Quoting Asturias (Reply 84):
The value of Great Britain's non-EU trade is about 30% less than that of its intra-EU trade.

Only in goods and services - visibles. You are forgetting to include invisibles, which (unusually for most European countries) makes up almost half of Britain's GDP, which is why it is critically important to mention it, unlike in many other countries, and why balance of trade is less important in Britain than in most countries.

However, as you yourself said when giving the example of Turkey, this point is not particularly germane to the debate, so I'll leave it there.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:43 pm



Quoting Asturias (Reply 92):
Could be a Eastern-Mediterranean council made up of Turkey, Greece, Lebanon, Israel maybe. Something like that. It has never existed.

Turkey has been allied to different European nations throughout history. I don't understand what you are trying to suggest here. You do know that Turkey was a combatant in WWI, for example? That there were alliances in the Napoleonic Wars? That Turkish support and acquiescence was critical to the British and French at different times across history?
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:44 pm



Quoting Asturias (Reply 92):
NATO is far larger than Europe, Turkey is also part of the UN. I was talking about specific Turkey-Europe alliance akin to the Nordic Council.

Ah, you didn't say that. You said "Turkey has never been in an alliance with European countries".

Quoting Asturias (Reply 92):
Turkey isn't displeased with the current relations it has to the EU and the rest of Europe. Many Turks believe that Turkey is better off outside the EU and maintain the status quo

Well, if they don't particularly want in then the question is somewhat moot.
 
RobertNL070
Posts: 4164
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:29 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:49 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 78):
Turkey has never been in an alliance with European countries


I repeat. The Council of Europe since 1949.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 92):
I was talking about specific Turkey-Europe alliance akin to the Nordic Council. Could be a Eastern-Mediterranean council made up of Turkey, Greece, Lebanon, Israel maybe.

Hmmm....moving the goalposts? Lame.

The Nordic Alliance is not a pan-European alliance, it is a regional co-operation. It is an alliance of (the) five Nordic countries, plus a few autonomous territories. Just like your example of an Eastern-Mediterranean Council composing of Turkey, Greece, Lebanon and Israel would probably be a very useful co-operation, but *only* a regional co-operation.

[edit for clarity]

[Edited 2008-03-04 12:57:08]
Born to be wild ...... until about 9 p.m.
Home = RTM, Rotterdam The Hague.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:52 pm

Turkey was an allies with Prussia for almost 200 years. Actually the old Muslim cemetary in Berlin (right beside THF) was founded in the 18th century by decree of King Frederik II after the ambassador of the Ottoman empire in prussia died unexpectedly.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
User avatar
Asturias
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:22 pm



Quoting Banco (Reply 82):
You could always go and read a book, you know. That Turkey has been part of European history for the last thousand years is little different to stating that Britain has been part of European history for the last thousand years, it's just that Britain had close involvement in western Europe with which you're more familiar.

Has Turkey really? No it hasn't. Turkey was founded in the 1920s. Before that it was part of the Ottoman Empire which had existed since about 1300 AD.

Picture of the Ottoman Empire:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...mmons/0/06/OttomanEmpireIn1683.png

Now we're almost 1000 years back.

The Byzantine empire:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:LocationByzantineEmpire.png

But wait! There's more.

The ROMAN Empire:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Roman_Empire_map.svg

Lots of empires, none of them Turkey. All of them dominating Anatolia at some time or another, inhabited by different people, different cultures. Once the Jews lived in Israel. Then they didn't. Then they did again, 2000 years later.

Your brain is short-circuiting on geography, while I'm actually asking about Turkey and the people who live there now and the cultural connection they have (or have not as the case may be) with Europe in general.

This should be so simple, name-calling being even simpler and quite frankly expected since your argument is emotional not factual, but if you can substantiate any claim you'll look less loud and empty and perhaps gain some respect.

Quoting Banco (Reply 82):
Has it ever occurred to you that it's rather hard to debate such things with someone so spectacularly ignorant about such matters? I tell you what, start with the Ottoman Empire in a Google search. That will help you over four or five hundred years of history and work backwards from there.

On the contrary! If I were so 'spectacularly ignorant' it would be so easy for you to give concrete examples of this obvious and clear cultural connection between Europe and Turkey. Yet, neither you nor anyone else has managed to do that - kind of like they realize "oh yea!" there isn't any really. Remnants of history, long gone countries and groups of people. Today, nothing really.

Quoting Banco (Reply 82):
American actually. But it is rather likely to be an English language saying, given that this is an English language forum.

Could have been Australian, Scottish, from New Zealand etc. It just struck me as a vulgar chav-like 'saying'.

Quoting Banco (Reply 82):
I haven't claimed any such thing. But it is normal to try to ensure that you don't create the circumstances where such things might happen in future. A cursory reading of pretty much any history would demonstrate that. Look at Iran, and what happened there (I'll let you work that one out).

As fun Iranian history is, it's irrelevant to this discussion. You claimed that there was some likelyhood that Turkey would get 'pissed' or something with the EU. If Turkey is about to go nuts if they can't become EU members, then that's a darn good reason to exclude them from the EU.

Your logic is rather circular and laden with prejudice against Turkey. They are civilized people.

Quoting Banco (Reply 82):
Why not, if they became liberal, stable, secular democratic states?

Because we have the United Nations to do this? The EU is not an entity for nation building nor is there any interest for such insane ventures.

Quoting Banco (Reply 82):
Er....yes. Which is what I was saying. I have now stated about three times I think that Turkey must satisfy the criteria before entry. Yet you seem to be under the impression that I am advocating getting them in tomorrow morning and sorting stuff out later. Nope. Haven't said that, don't think that. But provided Turkey satisfies the conditions for entry, then they should come in.

Of course they'd have to satisfy the criteria, were they ever to be admitted. However I don't think anyone who satisfies the criteria should automatically have a right for EU ascension. After all, then Canada would be next on the list. But it isn't.

Quoting Banco (Reply 82):
So long as certain countries hold the view that they'd wait till hell froze over for Turkey to get membership, that is hardly surprising. Without the incentive of entry why would you see constitutional change ramped up?

That makes no sense. You're suggesting Turks don't want to improve to EU standards unless they are promised to become members, but were they to improve up to EU standards, Turkey would become a far nicer country and better to live in.

You're saying they don't want that? Whether they get accepted or not? I think they do want improvement. Don't we all?

It's just not happening. You blame it on the EU, I blame it on the Turks. Mine is more sane.

Quoting Banco (Reply 82):
I agree. But do remember that for the Spanish people there was the knowledge that entry was certain once those reforms were complete. Turkey is not in that position.

The EC admission and subsequent entrance for Spain in 1986 was not really known about by the population in general nor did they have an opinion either way. We were just happy to be a free democracy. Then we get an offer to partake in the EC and we do. In the decade between democracy and EC participation we were just building and reforming our country for *ourselves*.

Not to get into some club that wasn't all that back in the mid 80s.

Quoting Banco (Reply 82):
Only inasmuch as there is between any two nations. If Iran becomes the dominant regional player, and Turkey is left out in the cold, what do you expect them to do?

Continue to have relations with Iran and make the best of it? Iran isn't capable of becoming a dominant regional player. Possibly ever.

Quoting Banco (Reply 82):
And this is the lack of strategic thinking I was referring to. You don't see a problem because it doesn't seem to affect you in western Europe. Turkey is a secular democracy, it could be much better, undoubtedly, but it is one nevertheless. Yet you think they have more in common with the basketcases, dictatorships and theocracies to their east, purely because of their location? That's just peculiar!

Nonsense, that was quite a projection! It has nothing to do with geographical placement, but more that they need military coups every now and then so the country won't fall into islamic rule as a large part of the population wants. Demonstrated by the current regime, Erdogan and Gul.

Quoting Banco (Reply 82):
Why? If European values are so good, why not expand them? Why not encourage others to adopt them? Why this Fortress Europe mentality?

Borders do not end the sphere of influence and European values can travel across borders, but that's neither here nor there. European values, if they are so great, can be exported just fine without the EU gobbling up countries.

We have the United Nations if you want a huge all-encompassing bureaucratic machine to spread values. Other more effective means are available. The EU has never been used for this and hasn't proven to be very effective at mixing different culture - nor is that it's purpose.

On the contrary, a fundamental directive of the EU is to protect culture! Not export it or otherwise move it.

Quoting Banco (Reply 82):
Not true. Not historically (you'll find this out when you do your research on the Ottoman Empire), and not now. As a NATO member your country has an alliance with Turkey and a mutual defence clause.

Yeah also we're UN members with them. Hello? NATO is a military alliance under the control of the US set up to protect us from Commies. It's not an alliance between Turkey and Europe. That's absurd!

Quoting Banco (Reply 82):
This does sound a bit like I'm Alright Jack, Sod the Rest of You. A successful Turkey is in our own interests. And if Turkey is successful, liberal and democratic, why on earth you wouldn't want them in anyway is simply bizarre.

Assuming they'd want to join with the EU as a successful democratic nation is arrogant and presumptious of you. Why would they? I just said that it serves the EU well to have the border where it currently is, and that's true.

The EU is not supposed to gobble up every eligible country. It could, possibly, but that's not its purpose and would hurt it in the long run. It seems the current expansion is hurting the EU more than expected.

saludos

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
User avatar
Asturias
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:26 pm



Quoting RobertNL070 (Reply 86):
A list of the Member States of the Council of Europe - in Spanish. You'll notice that Turkey joined the Council of Europe in 1949 ... some twenty-eight years before Spain did   

The CoE is nothing. They have no authority. no influence, no power, no mandate. My grandfather served for his country in the CoE. It's a bunch of elite people with European interests who meet and talk and drink.

It's more a country club than anything akin to an alliance.

saludos

Asturias
Tonight we fly

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 910A, Number6, SRQLOT, vc10 and 46 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos