Should Turkey Enter The European Union?

Banco · Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:33 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 87):
How droll.. not worthy of a reply. I asked for examples with Turkey and Europe and I get snide remarks instead of an answer - which apparently should be just about the simplest thing in the world because the answer is so obvious.

It is to anyone capable of some pretty basic reading. If you are going to engage in this debate, it is usually assumed by other participants that you might have an elementary knowledge of what it is you are discussing. I personally find it rather disconcerting to read your very long posts on this subject when you are apparently entirely unaware of a huge chunk of European history. It is now no longer a question of not being bothered to provide links of the bleedin' obvious for you to read and digest, but more of a demand that you acquaint yourself with some essential history before holding court.

I do not mind you holding the view that Turkey shouldn't be a member of the EU, it is a perfectly legitimate position to hold, and one I am pleased to debate with you. However, I really do mind if the whole discussion is predicated on you having absolutely no knowledge whatsoever of the historical underpinnings behind the debate. The same applies to your comment that Turkey has never had European allies - something that you have now rather backtracked from by refining your definition.

I am rather at a loss to comprehend how you could possibly assert that they haven't had any allies when you have demonstrated such a woeful lack of knowledge concerning the history of Europe itself. I just can't quite imagine how it is possible to miss it. Really. It's up there with asserting the world is flat.

Please do go and do some research on this. The debate is a perfectly valid one, but it does need to be founded on at least a basic understanding. Denying Turkey's European history is not a good start.

Banco · Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:39 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 98):
Has Turkey really? No it hasn't. Turkey was founded in the 1920s.

Oh, OK. We'll dismiss Germany too on the same basis then. That wasn't founded till the late nineteenth century. Oh, and Italy too. Bloody Garibaldi eh, what business is of his creating a new country! And then there's the Czech Republic. And Slovakia. Romania too.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 98):
It just struck me as a vulgar chav-like 'saying'.

Hence you saying you thought it was English. I knew perfectly well what you were implying.

And now I have to go. Doubtless I'll catch up with the rest later.

Asturias · Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:39 pm

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 89):
And there has never been a "promise" of the EU to Turkey that they'll join one day .. as they always try to tell us !

Precisely. There has never been a promise. Besides since the 50s the entity Turkey has been applying for has taken some dramatic changes.

Quoting Banco (Reply 94):
Turkey has been allied to different European nations throughout history. I don't understand what you are trying to suggest here. You do know that Turkey was a combatant in WWI, for example? That there were alliances in the Napoleonic Wars? That Turkish support and acquiescence was critical to the British and French at different times across history?

I said alliance, but I did not mean military alliance. They have no cultural exchange value, and that's where my question originated.

Quoting David L (Reply 95):
Ah, you didn't say that. You said "Turkey has never been in an alliance with European countries".

Yes, and I said that when debating about cultural ties between Turkey and Europe. Of course you can try to explain the cultural importance of a military alliance, but obviously I wasn't referring to one.

Quoting RobertNL070 (Reply 96):
I repeat. The Council of Europe since 1949.

I repeat: Irrelevant; collection of the political elite, where they chat and have a drink every once in a while.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 97):
Turkey was an allies with Prussia for almost 200 years. Actually the old Muslim cemetary in Berlin (right beside THF) was founded in the 18th century by decree of King Frederik II after the ambassador of the Ottoman empire in prussia died unexpectedly.

Finally! Something. Thank you.

However, religion and military alliances aren't a cultural value to the secular EU. 200 years? My my.

saludos

Asturias

LHStarAlliance · Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:41 pm

Don't forget that Turkey don't wants to accept the Genocide they did some years ago !

I hope they never join !

Constantin

RobertNL070 · Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:42 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 99):

Yes, very ..erm.. convincing Yeah sure

Asturias · Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:44 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 100):
I am rather at a loss to comprehend how you could possibly assert that they haven't had any allies when you have demonstrated such a woeful lack of knowledge concerning the history of Europe itself. I just can't quite imagine how it is possible to miss it. Really. It's up there with asserting the world is flat.

Well basic reading comprehension is apparently not your forté.

I said there wasn't any 'obvious' cultural ties between Turkey and Europe, whereas you claimed otherwise, without once substantiating your claim.

I mentioned that a cultural alliance between Turkey and other neighboring countries would have helped it's cause immensely. I did not say 'cultural' alliance, true. However as an example of an alliance I took the Nordic council, a cultural and diplomatic alliance.

Now you dare twist my words and claim I have trouble understanding?

Pathetic. I shall not touch upon that point again, people can read for themselves clearly what I wrote of.

saludos

Asturias

Asturias · Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:49 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 101):
Oh, OK. We'll dismiss Germany too on the same basis then. That wasn't founded till the late nineteenth century. Oh, and Italy too. Bloody Garibaldi eh, what business is of his creating a new country! And then there's the Czech Republic. And Slovakia. Romania too.

You're back to geography. The question isn't what countries are named or where precisely their borders are, but what cultural connections they have. The area the comprises modern Turkey today is indeed the question.

What obvious cultural ties does that area have with Europe? Anatolia, in other words. You don't have to tell me about Thrace and Constantinople. We'll just take those as given. They are not Turkish culturally anyway.

They are European.

saludos

Asturias

RobertNL070 · Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:52 pm

After a lot of to-ing and fro-ing, we've arrived at things cultural. Tell me, is Turkey culturally more distant to most EU member states than, say, Finland and Spain are to each other, or France and the Czech Republic?

Asturias · Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:53 pm

Quoting RobertNL070 (Reply 104):
Yes, very ..erm.. convincing

More convincing than your claim that the CoE is anything. In fact very few even know it exists now adays.

Here: read about this powerhouse for yourself!

http://www.coe.int/T/e/Com/about_coe/

They make leaflets and "find common solutions to the challenges facing European society". Yeah sure

They have no power. Sorry.

saludos

Asturias

Asturias · Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:00 pm

Quoting RobertNL070 (Reply 107):
After a lot of to-ing and fro-ing, we've arrived at things cultural. Tell me, is Turkey culturally more distant to most EU member states than, say, Finland and Spain are to each other, or France and the Czech Republic?

Not at all, we didn't arrive at culture in any way or form. I just asked someone to define Europe. Some used geography, some culture.. maybe there are other ways.

I was just curious about this pan-Turk-European culture some have claimed obviously exists.

ME AVN FAN mentioned that cuisine and music in Albania is very similar to the one in Turkey. Lewis mentioned that rural Greece and rural (I assume west) Turkey also share similar food and music.

How many here know about other parts of Turkey than the part around Bosporus and the Adriatic sea?

There is only one question and it is: How do you define the EU.

Answer about Turkish membership and a great many things are included in that definition. No perceived cuisine, music, square kilometers etc supersede that definition.

So, how does one define the EU?

saludos

Asturias

RobertNL070 · Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:07 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 108):

Whether or not the Council of Europe is a powerhouse is for me neither here nor there. That is something you brought up, not I. I only provided the Council of Europe as evidence that Turkey has been in an alliance with European countries for quite some time in order to counter your statement in reply 78, "Turkey has never been in an alliance with European countries".

Please don't put words into my mouth.

But now, as per reply 105, we're regarding "cultural alliances". Not that it's any skin off my nose, but the Council of Europe aims "to promote awareness and encourage the development of Europe's cultural identity and diversity".

David L · Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:10 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 109):
I was just curious about this pan-Turk-European culture some have claimed obviously exists.

There isn't even a pan-EU culture so why must there be a pan-Turk-European culture before Turkey is admitted? I don't think anyone is arguing that there was ever a "pan-Turk-European culture", anyway.

RobertNL070 · Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:15 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 109):
There is only one question and it is: How do you define the EU.

Try something like: the European Union is an intergovernmental and supranational organisation of European states.

Asturias · Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:31 pm

Quoting RobertNL070 (Reply 112):
Try something like: the European Union is an intergovernmental and supranational organisation of European states.

That's a fine broad definition, but it relies on other definitions such as the definition of European. That's where people start losing track of this definition. Some consider this to be geographic Europe, other do not. Geographically parts of Asia, Africa and S-America are parts of the EU, but not geographic Europe.
Thus it was suggested to define Europe as a cultural entity. Superficially Europe shares culture with the entire world and on a smaller scale there is significant difference between even the smallest districts in Europe.

Either way, the EU being a legal and political entity, doesn't care about either of those. It only cares about a hard definition and there must be one because Canada isn't a part of the EU, nor has it been invited.

I don't know what this definition is, but I know it doesn't include Canada. Seemingly it doesn't include Turkey either.

Quoting RobertNL070 (Reply 110):
But now, as per reply 105, we're regarding "cultural alliances". Not that it's any skin off my nose, but the Council of Europe aims "to promote awareness and encourage the development of Europe's cultural identity and diversity".

I know the council well and since they are without power, they can debate on their purpose all they like, set all sorts of goals etc. UEFA would be a more applicable example of a cultural alliance between Europe and Turkey and that still sucks.

saludos

Asturias

RobertNL070 · Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:37 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 113):
Geographically parts of Asia, Africa and S-America are parts of the EU

(My emphasis)

Please explain.

Asturias · Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:47 pm

Quoting RobertNL070 (Reply 114):
Please explain.

As Toast and ME AVN FAN pointed out, Ceuta, Melilla, Canary Islands and Malta technically belong to the African continent. Cyprus belongs to the Asian continent. French Guinea belongs to S-America.

All of these areas and/or nations are part of the EU. Some, like Malta and Cyprus are considered European, without question. Of course there is no debate over where Ceuta, Melilla and French Guinea are.

saludos

Asturias

RobertNL070 · Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:50 pm

Yes, yes, I know all about the exceptions to the rule, but then you meant politically, and not, as you stated geographically.

Time for bed, hasta luego

[Edited 2008-03-04 14:54:31]

Foxy · Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:32 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 98):
Could have been Australian, Scottish, from New Zealand etc. It just struck me as a vulgar chav-like 'saying'.

Has to be the first time i've ever heard a phrase coined by Lyndon Johnson a 'chav-like saying'

Asturias · Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:57 am

Quoting Foxy (Reply 117):
Has to be the first time i've ever heard a phrase coined by Lyndon Johnson a 'chav-like saying'

Pff.. Johnson got it from FDR who got it from Wilson who got it from Pierce who got it from Van Buren who got it from McCain. Big grin

Seriously, it's the first time I've ever heard this phrase, but examining it's history it is older than Johnson. In other words, Lyndon Johnson didn't coin it.

It's vulgar regardless and the person who quoted it was from England.. so logically: vulgar + England = chav

saludos

Asturias

SWISSER · Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:40 am

Computer says No...Cough Cough...

Let them join the US as the 52nd state, because of them we even have this discussion of a Euroturkey!
Mmmm...turkey with mashed potatoes and chestnuts with cranberries, dazzled with a brown sauce and oven roasted honey apples...

Anyway,
soon after that the UK as the 53th state...a slight relieve for our inflation digits and everybody happy!

[Edited 2008-03-04 20:53:36]

Banco · Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:53 am

Quoting Asturias (Reply 118):

It's vulgar regardless and the person who quoted it was from England.. so logically: vulgar + England = chav

Only if you regard old English as vulgar and somehow inferior. Chaucer didn't think so, and neither do I. Only prudishness would, and a lack of awareness about the English language - which is actually entirely understandable.

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 119):
soon after that the UK as the 53th state...a slight relieve for our inflation digits

Inflation here is 2.2%. scratchchin

L410Turbolet · Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:03 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 60):
The female literacy rate of above 70% in fact is in fact rather a success and a result of the Kemalist republic.

After almost 90 years of the republic you still have more than 1 out of 5 females in Turkey illiterate and you call it a "success"??? I'd hate to see what failure would look like according to you. Confused

Quoting Banco (Reply 62):
If the EU pushes them away in a different direction, then that nation is still going to be on the borders of Europe.

Have you noticed which countries are on southern and eastern borders of Turkey??? Have you checked the size and economic condition of Turkey and with the size and conditions of the 10 2 new EU countries?
If the recent to waves of expansion were a major headache and the worst of the 10 2 was in a far better economic shape and significantly smaller than Turkey, I can't imagine what a nightmare Turkey would be. Apparently the EU is desperate into becoming some sort of Roman Empire II. in its terminal stage, ungovernable behemoth collapsing under its own weight of stupid bureaucracy and sheer size.
Hoping for the EU to learn a lesson or two from history is futile, as we have witnessed recently with the "independent" Kosovo.

Quoting Banco (Reply 62):
there seems to be a real lack of strategic thinking on the part of quite a few

I have yet to hear a reasonable argument what "strategic advantage" and incentive there is for the EU to push itself into the volatile Middle East and having to deal with Iran, Iraq or Syria directly on its (EU's) outer borders!?!?
Apparently the idea of EUrabia is not such a sci-fi concept one would have thought (hoped) it is.

Quoting Banco (Reply 62):
The thinking behind getting Turkey inside is to bind them to European values.

Oh really??? The same EU tangled in its multikulti pc zealotry, not willing or able to define what its own "values" should be while bending backwards to accomodate everyone else's?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 72):
France is in the European top league

of strikes per capita per year???

Quoting Banco (Reply 74):
Do you want them to turn to the likes of Iran for partnership?

What if they turn into the likes of Iran while in the EU?

Quoting Banco (Reply 74):
I can't remotely imagine how isolating Turkey so that it becomes a nation sandwiched between the EU

By analogy: You and I sure can be good friends, but it doesn't mean you will automatically move into my house and I let you sleep with my girlfriend.
As a non-member, is Turkey isolated now?

ME AVN FAN · Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:06 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 103):
Don't forget that Turkey don't wants to accept the Genocide they did some years ago !

-
The Genocide in question did not happen "some years ago" and not in the time of the Republic of Turkey, but between 1915 and 1917 in the days of the Empire. And the Republic is not the successor to the Empire, as it existed already when the Empire still was existing. The intelligent way for the leaders of the Republic of Turkey now would be to declare how sorry they were for whatever happened in the days of the Ottoman Empire and to distance themselves from the horrors of those days. Why have they not done so long ago ? Very very simple. To morally recognize the existence of the Armenian minority would be the recognition of the existence of ethnic minorities INSIDE the Republic of Turkey. It would mean that they have to stop to talk about "Mountain Turks" and "Mountain Bandits" but recognize the existence of the Kurdish minority and accept to have problems with Kurdish rebels of an organisation named PKK . Indeed, before Turkey settles these two issues, they will have continued problems with international organisations, not only the E.U. but many others.

ME AVN FAN · Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:19 am

Quoting Asturias (Reply 115):
French Guinea

Just for the records, French Guinea became independent in 1958 as the Republic of Guinea. What you mean is Guyane Francaise or French Guyane (Guyana/Guayana)

-

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 121):
incentive there is for the EU to push itself into the volatile Middle East and having to deal with Iran, Iraq or Syria directly on its (EU's) outer borders!?!?
Apparently the idea of EUrabia is not such a sci-fi concept one would have thought (hoped) it is.

-
A) Turkey is in Europe but has nothing to do with the Arab World
B) Iran is in Asia but has nothing to do with either the Arab World or the E.U.
C) Iraq is in the Arab League but is NOT associated with the E.U.
D) Syria, together with Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco (plus Israel) is linked to the E.U. in a Bilateral Association Treaty. These treaties are fairly wide-ranging but differ slightly from country to country
E) President Sarkozy wanted to group those Arab associates together with Mediterranean EU members, but Mrs Merkel now pushed her idea through that it should be all of the EU with the associates. Thereby moving Germany ahead in a way.
F) Greece is a neighbour state to Libya, so what

[Edited 2008-03-05 03:21:21]

ME AVN FAN · Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:45 am

Quoting Asturias (Reply 75):
Turkey just finished an invasion into Iraq, which I personally would call one HELL of a connection with the Arab world.

There were also Polish troops in Iraq for quite some time. Should Poland now be invited to join the Arab League ?
-

Quoting Asturias (Reply 75):
a connection between Turkey and the Arab world is disingenuous at best.

I'll just dismiss that fantastic claim right now.

I do not quite see what there should be "disingenuous" or "fantastic". France and Italy have far far more connections to the Arab World then Turkey. With Paris having the famous "Institut du Monde Arabe" on the Seine, one of the most important Arab cultural insitutions. Not to speak of more than 10 mio people of Arab origin living in France alone. There are 10 times more Arabs living in small Switzerland than in large Turkey, just to give another example. While agreeing that the Swiss Army tends to abstain from excursions into Kurdistan.
-

Quoting Asturias (Reply 75):
France is in the European top league, while Spain is on the same level as Italy

France is in the Top League with Germany and Great Britain, while Spain is with Italy and some others. Simply not the same level.
-

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 89):
Asturias says the truth , there has never been an alliance between the EU-Turkey .

And there has never been a "promise" of the EU to Turkey that they'll join one day .. as they always try to tell us !

A) Turkey is associated with the E.U. in what is quite an extensive Bilateral Treaty, and has been so for decades
B) Alliance with European powers ? No, Turkey stayed neutral. But the Ottoman Empire was in an alliance with the German Empire and the Austrian-Hungarian Empire until 1918 .
C) Promise ? No, not a promise, but their depositing a long term entry application was accepted and not rejected. And the Turks have repeatedly be informed by the E.U. what conditions they should fulfil to become ready for a membership. Sure, not a promise, but nevertheless a kind of general "acceptance in principle".
-

Quoting Asturias (Reply 92):
Turkey, Greece, Lebanon,

Lebanon and Syria are united in not being interested in any kind of alliance with Turkey. Have a look at the map of Beirut and then you may realize why
-

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 121):
France is in the European top league
of strikes per capita per year???

-
It is in the Top League together with Great Britain and Germany, but also in regard to technology
-

David L · Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:09 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 115):
As Toast and ME AVN FAN pointed out, Ceuta, Melilla, Canary Islands and Malta technically belong to the African continent. Cyprus belongs to the Asian continent. French Guinea belongs to S-America.

Only because their parent state is geographically in Europe or because they are geographically adjacent to Europe... and they meet other criteria as well. As I said earlier, there's nothing to prevent the EU from spreading beyond Europe and changing its name. When the name was devised, the member states were all well within the continent of Europe with no sign of it spreading beyond so the name was appropriate.

I don't think there's anyone in Brussels wringing their hands and moaning "Oh, why didn't we call it something else? Now we can't expand beyond Europe".

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 119):
Anyway,
soon after that the UK as the 53th state...a slight relieve for our inflation digits and everybody happy!

Quoting Banco (Reply 120):
Quoting SWISSER (Reply 119):
soon after that the UK as the 53th state...a slight relieve for our inflation digits

Inflation here is 2.2%.

Oh, yes. Another call for the EU to improve its finances by losing one of the net contributors.

[Edited 2008-03-05 04:10:04]

Asturias · Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:36 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 124):
There were also Polish troops in Iraq for quite some time. Should Poland now be invited to join the Arab League ?

Poland doesn't have Arabs at the border like Turkey. In fact the interests of Syria, Iran, Iraq and Turkey are closely intertwined.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 124):
I do not quite see what there should be "disingenuous" or "fantastic". France and Italy have far far more connections to the Arab World then Turkey. With Paris having the famous "Institut du Monde Arabe" on the Seine, one of the most important Arab cultural insitutions. Not to speak of more than 10 mio people of Arab origin living in France alone. There are 10 times more Arabs living in small Switzerland than in large Turkey, just to give another example. While agreeing that the Swiss Army tends to abstain from excursions into Kurdistan.

To claim there are no ties between Turkey and the Arab world is disingenuous, no matter how you try and spin it.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 124):
France is in the Top League with Germany and Great Britain, while Spain is with Italy and some others. Simply not the same level.

Nonsense - and I should know better than, say a north African immigrant in, say Switzerland. Smile

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 124):
Lebanon and Syria are united in not being interested in any kind of alliance with Turkey. Have a look at the map of Beirut and then you may realize why

Irrelevant, the connection they had to have made was with Greece. We're talking about the EU and how "European" Turks are.

Answer: not very.

PS: you misquoted me in your post and it looks like you quoted yourself and then proceded to argue with yourself after adding my name to it. Dishonest discussion is surely beneath you. Surely.

saludos

Asturias

David L · Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:55 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 126):
PS: you misquoted me in your post and it looks like you quoted yourself and then proceded to argue with yourself after adding my name to it. Dishonest discussion is surely beneath you. Surely.

There is another alternative. It might sound far fetched but bear with me... perhaps it was a mistake? duck

Quoting Asturias (Reply 126):
and I should know better than, say a north African immigrant in, say Switzerland.

Hmm... many people from outwith the EU know a lot more about it than many I know from within the EU, including me. A person's ethnic background doesn't really tell you anything at all about their knowledge of the EU. Their arguments might but their ethnic background doesn't.

ME AVN FAN · Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:00 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 126):
there are no ties between Turkey and the Arab world

There ARE ties, but there are more ties between the Arab World on one side and Italy and France on the other, so that in whatever way you try to twist it, it is of minor relevance.
-

Quoting Asturias (Reply 126):
France is in the Top League with Germany and Great Britain, while Spain is with Italy and some others. Simply not the same level.

Nonsense - and I should know better

It is not nonsense. France is above Spain and still above Italy in many ways. Whenever Spain is no longer a developing country, to mean it to be on the same level as actual European countries is unrealistic
-

Quoting Asturias (Reply 126):
Irrelevant, the connection they had

-
YOU brought up the idea ! And now declare YOUR OWN idea to be irrelevant. Then, why do you bring up irrelevant ideas ?
-

Quoting Asturias (Reply 126):
how "European" Turks are.

Answer: not very.

correct answer : sufficiently
-

Quoting David L (Reply 127):
sound far fetched but bear with me... perhaps it was a mistake? duck

-
He never mis-connects things, as he thinks to be of onne of the "top-countries" in Europe Big grin

-

Asturias · Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:25 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 72):
and they have nothing to do with the Arab World and the Arab League.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 128):
There ARE ties, but there are more ties between the Arab World on one side and Italy and France on the other, so that in whatever way you try to twist it, it is of minor relevance.

You see, first you falsly claim that Turkey has nothing to do with the Arab world. I called you on that misinformation and all this time later you finally admit that there are indeed ties between the Arab world and Turkey.

Apology accepted.

Ties between Europe and the Arab world are well known, I sure never tried to foolishly deny them, but they are irrelevant to this discussion.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 128):
It is not nonsense. France is above Spain and still above Italy in many ways. Whenever Spain is no longer a developing country, to mean it to be on the same level as actual European countries is unrealistic

Your credibility isn't very strong when it comes to describing conditions in the various countries ME AVN FAN. After all, you think Turkey is a-ok and Spain is a developing country.

France is in some ways ahead of Spain, yes - however the reverse is also true and neither fact prevents France and Spain to be an appropriate comparison.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 128):
YOU brought up the idea ! And now declare YOUR OWN idea to be irrelevant. Then, why do you bring up irrelevant ideas ?

I suggested that it would have helped Turkey's aspirations towards the EU today, had they in the 50s made a similar alliance to the Nordic council with the neighboring countries, Greece included. Without Greece such an alliance would be irrelevant. Thus, while a shame Turkey can't talk to some of it's southern neighbors on that level, it is irrelevant because it was only the western neighbor that they needed to connect with.

Instead, they invaded Cyprus. That's the political opposite of a Nordic council. Smile

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 128):
correct answer : sufficiently

Answer: debatable, at best. Which is why we are having a discussion about it now. Which is why you see so many Europeans against that definition and so few with it.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 128):
He never mis-connects things, as he thinks to be of onne of the "top-countries" in Europe

Your English is breaking up.. as I understand that sentence, my reply is: I'm not perfect, but I don't spin the facts and spread half-truths to support my argument. Nor do I think I am a country.

saludos

Asturias

ME AVN FAN · Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:47 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 129):
After all, you think Turkey is a-ok and Spain is a developing country.

-
No, I said that Spain is no longer a developing country Big grin

and I said that Turkey is not near collapse
-

Quoting Asturias (Reply 129):
Nordic counci

somebody above suggested a kind of "Council" of Israel, Lebanon, Turkey and Greece
- and to this I explained that Lebanon would not be interested into this
-

Quoting Asturias (Reply 129):
Instead, they invaded Cyprus.

They invaded after the officers having toppled President Makarios and after they started to talk about the Enosis. Turkey intervened in its position as one of the guarantee-powers of the Treaty of Zurich of 1960. When the Greek Cypriots refused talks, the Turkish troops also took Varosha. The UN proposal for a re-union of Cyprus was accepted by the electorate of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC) but refused by the electorate of the Greek sector.
-

Quoting Asturias (Reply 129):
but I don't spin the facts and spread half-truths to support my argument.

not ?

Quoting Asturias (Reply 129):
Nor do I think I am a country.

but as if your country was a superpower wave

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