Hi guys !

Well thats the Question .

I'm against it ! As a Union has to base on commonalities , and the main commonality is the Territorial and this one is not given here . If we let Turkey enter , we can also allow Israel or Morocco .

And they have a complete different culture , a strategic Partnership as Merkel and Sarkozy want is OK .

Yes :
No : 1

Constantin

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter): As a Union has to base on commonalities

so what commonalities do the current 27 EU members share that you feel Turkey doesnt


Yes: 1
No: 1

Turkey has more reason to be in the EU than Israel has to be in the Eurovision Song Contest.

Yes: 1
No: 2

I'm against it. There are many threads on this subject, buy the consensus is always the same. Turkey has no business to be in the EU and we in the EU have more to gain by keeping Turkey out indefinitely.

saludos

Asturias

Quoting Asturias (Reply 3): Turkey has no business to be in the EU

A lot of people would think that the UK has no business being in the EU , or Italy , indeed if you name any of the current 27 members I am sure you would be able to find someone who thinks that they have no business being in the EU - would you care to be more specific why you think Turkey has no business being in the EU ?

Yes

They are modern and more deserving than Romania for example. Plus they play a big role in NATO. Also them being a muslim country should have nothing to do with their ability to enter the EU.

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 5): They are modern and more deserving than Romania for example. Plus they play a big role in NATO. Also them being a muslim country should have nothing to do with their ability to enter the EU.

Them being a muslim country has nothing to do with it, rather that Turkey is a sham of a country that is on the verge of collapse at any given time.

Romania is also a European country, unlike Turkey, which gives it a huge leg-up compared to Turkey. If the EU ever decides to let in non-European countries, then perhaps Turkey could be seriously considered.

Until that happens, not a chance.

saludos

Asturias

Quoting Asturias (Reply 6): rather that Turkey is a sham of a country that is on the verge of collapse at any given time.

On that basis I assume that you are one of those people who thinks Italy has no business being in the EU either  

The sad reality is that skin color and religion will always come into play when entering into this debate. Turkey being predominantly Muslim (despite being a secular state) will always be held back by this fact. There is already a fair bit of contempt towards minorities around Europe and no shortage of incidents where Muslims are the victims. Allowing Turkey to join would open up the floodgates for this type of incident.

All things considered Turkey will not ever be allowed in the EU, really they might as well call it the European Christian Union. A favorite argument amongst those against Turkey joining is "porous borders" that would supposedly put the EU at the mercy of illegal immigration from Asia. This is total BS as Turkey has strong border controls enforced by its military.

But they will let Romania join... what a joke.

YOWza

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 7): On that basis I assume that you are one of those people who thinks Italy has no business being in the EU either

Guilty as charged 

saludos

Asturias

Quoting YOWza (Reply 8): really they might as well call it the European Christian Union

I'm going to request people stop the religious whining. Sweden was admitted to the EU and there are less than 10% who considerthemselves Christian in any meaningful way in that country!

Unless you want to suggest the name should be the European Atheist and Christian Union?

I'm sorry, you're just grasping at straws, playing the 'religion' card and ignoring that Romania was far far FAR better qualified than Turkey will be in the foreseeable future.

Not to mention, a European country. The EU is a political entity, not a trade union like it was in the beginning.

saludos

Asturias

Quoting Asturias (Reply 10): I'm sorry, you're just grasping at straws, playing the 'religion' card and ignoring that Romania was far far FAR better qualified than Turkey will be in the foreseeable future.

Romania was not qualified at all.

Turkey on the other hand is more qualified than any Balkan state at the moment. Including Greece who is in the EU but still plays the nationalist card and causing problems with Macedonia over its name.


You my friend seems that you hate Turkey and the Turks, otherwise you haven't proved how they are not qualified.

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 11): You my friend seems that you hate Turkey and the Turks, otherwise you haven't proved how they are not qualified.

OK, now that the religion card is out, you play the race card. Well done. Not going to help your argument one iota, but hey.

Let's make one thing clear: it is YOU who need to demonstrate how Turkey is more qualified than Romania, because you're making that claim!

Meanwhile back in reality, Romania was found to be more qualified than Turkey by the EU. But what do they know?

This is like arguments on the KC-X for the USAF. The USAF chooses product A, but fans of product B claim that it's really better for the USAF. Surely the USAF chose product A because of politics, not on merits, no matter what documents and reality shows. It's all secret bias.

I won't even dignify your claims of me hating Turkey with an answer. The EU has found that Romania is qualified given the requirements of the Union and it has found Turkey lacking. That's the reality.

Perhaps Turkey isn't better off in a Union with countries that have different priorities - after all Turkey has had decades to achieve the requirements of the EU and it hasn't. It's a democratic country, isn't it? Well, it hasn't chosen to go in the direction of the EU for whatever reason, it has only decided to apply for membership.

saludos

Asturias

Quoting Asturias (Reply 6): Romania is also a European country, unlike Turkey, which gives it a huge leg-up compared to Turkey. If the EU ever decides to let in non-European countries, then perhaps Turkey could be seriously considered.

A significant part of Turkey is in Europe. Why should they be disqualified just because part of if is outside Europe?

That said, I'm undecided on whether or not Turkey should be admitted to the EU... but not due to geographical issues.

I think they should be allowed to enter, eventually. Turkey has a long way to go on human rights and regional self-determination (plus the whole Cyprus thing), and the current trend away from a secular state towards a more Islamic one will not help their cause. Religion per say is not the issue, but religious influence and potential religious intolerance is. I think Turkey has a perfect right to join the EU provided they meet the entry criteria.

Quoting David L (Reply 13): A significant part of Turkey is in Europe. Why should they be disqualified just because part of if is outside Europe? That said, I'm undecided on whether or not Turkey should be admitted to the EU... but not due to geographical issues.

No an *insignificant* part of Turkey is on geographical Europe. However, that in and of itself isn't the point. Take Iceland for example. While they seem to be happy in EFTA with little aspirations to elevate themselves to full EU membership, they'd be accepted in a heartbeat.

Yet, about 50% of Iceland is geographically in America.

However there is no doubt in anyone's mind that Iceland is European. Not because of geography. Also the question isn't just "should Turkey join the EU at some point", rather it is *can* Turkey join at some point. Is it in the interest of the EU?

Whether Turkey is or is not in geographical Europe is debatable, but it requires immense historical revisionism to place it there, though that is not beneath some people.

Regardless, even though one would come to the decision that it is indeed part of Europe, that opens the question whether it should join or not and even though one would find that it should, one has to ask if it could.

And as it is today and in the foreseeable future, it can't.

saludos

Asturias

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter): If we let Turkey enter , we can also allow Israel or Morocco .

Turkey is a European country, Israel in a way as well. Morocco is a member of the Arab League, and together with Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan an E.U. associate.
-

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter): a complete different culture

no, it is not a completely different culture, it is similar to the cultures of the countries on the Balkans like Bulgaria, Macedonia, Albania, Kosovo
-

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter): a strategic Partnership as Merkel and Sarkozy want is OK .

-
the Strategic Partnership and their Association Treaty are already in place, and Turkey even is a full member of NATO.
-

Quoting Asturias (Reply 3): Turkey has no business to be in the EU

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Turkey needs to get far closer to the E.U. than in the past as now half the Mediterranean has the same association as Turkey. But as the E.U. has no requirement for Turkey while Turkey has a requirement for the E.U. it clearly is the business of Turkey to adjust things like minority rights etc.
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Quoting Asturias (Reply 6): Turkey is a sham of a country that is on the verge of collapse at any given time.

Turkey is NOT on the verge of collapse and is rather very strong, with a strong industry
-

Quoting Asturias (Reply 6): If the EU ever decides to let in non-European countries, then perhaps Turkey could be seriously considered.

No, then Turkey will not be considered, as Turkey IS a European country
-

Quoting David L (Reply 13): geographical issues.

let's not forget, that geographically, Malta is in Africa (south of Tunis) and Cyprus is in Asia.

Well, well, well... if the spinmeister hasn't arrived. In a way this thread has now run its course.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 16): Turkey is a European country, Israel in a way as well. Morocco is a member of the Arab League, and together with Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan an E.U. associate.

How, pray tell, is Turkey a European country? How is Israel, in a way, a European country as well?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 16): no, it is not a completely different culture, it is similar to the cultures of the countries on the Balkans like Bulgaria, Macedonia, Albania, Kosovo

How is it not a different culture? How is it similar to Bulgaria, Macedonia, Albania and Kosovo?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 16): the Strategic Partnership and their Association Treaty are already in place, and Turkey even is a full member of NATO.

NATO membership is irrelevant to EU membership. Ireland, Austria, Finland and Sweden are not NATO members. France is only a partial member.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 16): Turkey needs to get far closer to the E.U. than in the past as now half the Mediterranean has the same association as Turkey. But as the E.U. has no requirement for Turkey while Turkey has a requirement for the E.U. it clearly is the business of Turkey to adjust things like minority rights etc.

I'm sure it is in the interest of Turkey to get far closer to the EU and although Turkey's aspirations towards that goal have been half-hearted and insufficient, that seems to be Turkeys general, half-hearted intent. Why have Turkey's actions been so disinterested? Whatever the reason, it has resulted in that Turkey is far from being qualified from becoming a member of the EU, were that ever to be seriously considered.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 16): Turkey is NOT on the verge of collapse and is rather very strong, with a strong industry

I say it is on the verge of collapse.  

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 16): No, then Turkey will not be considered, as Turkey IS a European country

How is it a European country?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 16): let's not forget, that geographically, Malta is in Africa (south of Tunis) and Cyprus is in Asia.

Let us not forget that geography isn't the most relevant factor when deciding whether a country is European or not.

saludos

Asturias

[Edited 2008-03-03 08:09:34]

Quoting Asturias (Reply 10): I'm going to request people stop the religious whining. Sweden was admitted to the EU and there are less than 10% who considerthemselves Christian in any meaningful way in that country!

How is that religious whining? It's a fact that being predominantly Muslim is a barrier to entry. Bury your head in the sand all you want, but that's the truth. I'm not Muslim but if I were I think I would rather the EU just came out an admitted what was going on rather than skirting around the issue and using the possibility of EU membership as a carrot to guide the actions of Turkey in Iraq and elsewhere...

Quoting Asturias (Reply 10): I'm sorry, you're just grasping at straws, playing the 'religion' card and ignoring that Romania was far far FAR better qualified than Turkey will be in the foreseeable future.

Turkey is in terms of ideology, technology, military and broader outlook is more in line with the EU now than Romania is or was at time of entry to the EU. This too is a fact. The horrible treatment of gypsies in Eastern Europe has been glossed over yet any repression by the Turks is blasted by Brussels... Are you telling me that's a level playing field?

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 11): Romania was not qualified at all.

  

Quoting Asturias (Reply 12): OK, now that the religion card is out, you play the race card. Well done. Not going to help your argument one iota, but hey.

Actually I played the race card first but you chose to ignore it because you have totally misunderstood the issue at hand here.

YOWza

Quoting YOWza (Reply 18): Quoting Asturias (Reply 10): I'm going to request people stop the religious whining. Sweden was admitted to the EU and there are less than 10% who considerthemselves Christian in any meaningful way in that country! How is that religious whining? It's a fact that being predominantly Muslim is a barrier to entry. Bury your head in the sand all you want, but that's the truth. I'm not Muslim but if I were I think I would rather the EU just came out an admitted what was going on rather than skirting around the issue and using the possibility of EU membership as a carrot to guide the actions of Turkey in Iraq and elsewhere...

What about if in future Albania and Bosnia want to join? Both countries are clearly within the geographical limits of Europe, but both have a predominantly Muslim population.

Jan

Quoting YOWza (Reply 18): How is that religious whining? It's a fact that being predominantly Muslim is a barrier to entry. Bury your head in the sand all you want, but that's the truth. I'm not Muslim but if I were I think I would rather the EU just came out an admitted what was going on rather than skirting around the issue and using the possibility of EU membership as a carrot to guide the actions of Turkey in Iraq and elsewhere...

That's religious whining because you're erroneously claiming that religion has anything to do with a nation's appliance to the EU. Religion is not standing in the way of Turkey's membership to the EU which has been made abundantly clear by the EU, which has never mentioned the dominating religion of any applicant country.

If you can demonstrate that the EU has ever made the condition that a country needs to be Christian to join, you have a point. Otherwise, it would only help your arguments to drop that religious-bias claim immediately.

I'll agree with you on that I think it is high time the EU comes clean and says in no uncertain terms that Turkey hasn't improved to any significant degree since it began applying to the EU and at this rate it will never be applicable for ascension to the Union.

In other words, tell them to stop applying until they fulfil EU membership qualifications. I agree that to keep a dialogue between the EU and Turkey only gives Turkey false hopes that will not be realized.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 18): Turkey is in terms of ideology, technology, military and broader outlook is more in line with the EU now than Romania is or was at time of entry to the EU. This too is a fact. The horrible treatment of gypsies in Eastern Europe has been glossed over yet any repression by the Turks is blasted by Brussels... Are you telling me that's a level playing field?

No. Romania was and is in terms of ideology, technology, military and broader outlook more in line with the EU than Turkey was and is. That is a fact. That is why Romania is now a member of the EU and Turkey is not.

Your opinion goes right against reality. If you were right, then Turkey would already be a member of the EU. Which is it isn't and Romania is.

Gypsies have nothing to do with Romanian EU ascension. I don't see a reason to address that further.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 18): Actually I played the race card first but you chose to ignore it because you have totally misunderstood the issue at hand here.

You played the race card first? OK, then. Good for you, because tactics like that only scuttle your argument. You must be proud of yourself.

saludos

Asturias

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19): What about if in future Albania and Bosnia want to join? Both countries are clearly within the geographical limits of Europe, but both have a predominantly Muslim population.

I'm completely against it , as the Union is based on the Western - Christian way of being . Muslim countries don't have lost anything in the EU . The EU won't last very long if every country wants to join . It has to be based on commonalities and this commonalities are given between Germany - France, Austria , Spain even Poland but not with Bosnia of Turkey

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 21): I'm completely against it , as the Union is based on the Western - Christian way of being . Muslim countries don't have lost anything in the EU . The EU won't last very long if every country wants to join . It has to be based on commonalities and this commonalities are given between Germany - France, Austria , Spain even Poland but not with Bosnia of Turkey

I'm NOT a Christian, as is the majority of European population by now. The EU is NOT a christian club.

Albania and Bosnia are clearly European countries, within the accepted geographical boundaries of Europe (while the situation of Turkey, with a large part east of the Bosporus, can be argued about).

Jan

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 22): I'm NOT a Christian, as is the majority of European population by now. The EU is NOT a christian club. Albania and Bosnia are clearly European countries, within the accepted geographical boundaries of Europe (while the situation of Turkey, with a large part east of the Bosporus, can be argued about). Jan

But your Life and way of being is influenced by the Christian Religion as the western Values base on this Religion .

------------

In 20 years Turkey will have more Inhabitants than Germany ! Imagine the poorest country with the most Power ! No way !

Constantin

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 23): Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 22): I'm NOT a Christian, as is the majority of European population by now. The EU is NOT a christian club. Albania and Bosnia are clearly European countries, within the accepted geographical boundaries of Europe (while the situation of Turkey, with a large part east of the Bosporus, can be argued about). Jan But your Life and way of being is influenced by the Christian Religion as the western Values base on this Religion .

By the more than 500 year struggle to get the church out off politics. Thank you, very much.

Jan

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19): What about if in future Albania and Bosnia want to join? Both countries are clearly within the geographical limits of Europe, but both have a predominantly Muslim population.

If Albania and Bosnia will apply, they will be evaluated according to the conditions of the EU when that time comes and they will be judged on their individual merits.

Their predominant religion will not enter into that eveluation, because that is not, has not and probably will never be part of the evaluation the EU makes for the application of countries into the Union.

However, discussing Albanian, Bosnian or even Turkish ascension into the EU is completely academic at this point since the EU has declared that no more countries will be accepted into the EU for an indefinite period of time.

The expansion of the European Union has ended, for now. When or if it ever exands is not known at this moment in time.

saludos

Asturias

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 24): By the more than 500 year struggle to get the church out off politics. Thank you, very much.

Please don't interpret strange things ...

I mean the Union should base on that "Western Values" and not on the same Religion . The Muslim Religion rules the way of life of the People and this way is not compatible with the "western Values" nobody is speaking here of getting Church again into Politics .


Constantin

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 21): I'm completely against it , as the Union is based on the Western - Christian way of being . Muslim countries don't have lost anything in the EU . The EU won't last very long if every country wants to join . It has to be based on commonalities and this commonalities are given between Germany - France, Austria , Spain even Poland but not with Bosnia of Turkey

This is called playing the religion card. You disagree with Turkey, Bosnia, or even Albania, entering the EU just because they're "muslim" majority countries.

On the other hand, Romania is IMO poorer than Turkey, yet they're in the EU, just because they're not muslim. (they get a free ticket)

Thats discrimination right there. I hope the EU looks at things differently, and doesn't take religion into account, since IMO religion has nothing to do whether you're European or not. I am European since I was born in Kosovo, no one can take that from me, not my religion, my beliefs, or anything else.


Back to Albania, they're still looked at as a muslim country but believe me, at this point there are more christians (orthodox and catholics) than muslims. They haven't done a census yet but when they do it'll show the new reality there. In fact there are more atheists than muslims. Kosovo on the other hand has a muslim majority at this point but I see things changing there as well. We're getting back to our roots, and back to our religion which was Christianity, before the Ottoman occupation.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 17): How, pray tell, is Turkey a European country? How is Israel, in a way, a European country as well?

Turkey has its most important metropolis and much of its industry and its services even geographically on the European continent, and Turkey, just as Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia are regarded as Europe, for instance by CEPT. Israel "in a way" is a European country, as practically all its economic and traffic-wise links are with Europe (and the USA). Cyprus, to say it again, is in Europe to zero percent.
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Quoting Asturias (Reply 17): no, it is not a completely different culture, it is similar to the cultures of the countries on the Balkans like Bulgaria, Macedonia, Albania, Kosovo How is it not a different culture? How is it similar to Bulgaria, Macedonia, Albania and Kosovo?

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Turkey shares a good part of culture with the Balkans.
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Quoting Asturias (Reply 17): Why have Turkey's actions been so disinterested?

Because the Turks did NOT expect the Arab countries to get into Bilateral association treaties with the E.U.. Turkey in a way was overtaken on the right, and realized this fairly late.
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Quoting Asturias (Reply 17): No, then Turkey will not be considered, as Turkey IS a European country How is it a European country?

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Again, its most important metropolis, a considerable part of its population and of its industry and much of the services (banks, insurance, etc) are IN Europe, and most of its economic links are with the rest of Europe
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Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 21): Muslim countries don't

Albania and Bosnia will join the E.U., not now of course but in the longer term, and both are Muslim.
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Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 21): the Union is based on the Western - Christian way of being

hardly ! The E.U. is based on the idea of a united Europe. You will find it difficult to find your "Western-Christian way" anywhere in the E.U. foundation documents

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 21): I'm completely against it , as the Union is based on the Western - Christian way of being . Muslim countries don't have lost anything in the EU . The EU won't last very long if every country wants to join . It has to be based on commonalities and this commonalities are given between Germany - France, Austria , Spain even Poland but not with Bosnia of Turkey

If the EU was indeed founded on the principles you ascribe to it, then I wouldn't want anything to do with it.   It's one possible way to describe Europe, but it's an ugly, close-minded one with factual problems.

Now, the question of what is Europe and what is not is centuries old; and obviously, this thread won't provide a definite answer either. I see four common historical traits as most significant for Europe:
- Greek antiquity with its ideas, philosophies and sciences.
- Roman antiquity with its rule of law, statecraft and unification of Europe, deeply influencing cultures.
- Medieval christianity with central churches and ruptures through reformation.
- A history of secularization and the eventual seperation of church and state, allowing advanced sciences and modernization.

Perhaps one should add the shared experience of overcoming an abundance of wars as well as separation by ideologies with the end of the Cold War, but that might be a bit recent.

Countries which developed under these historical influences are European in my view. Turkey does not actually share in most of these traits, and is culturally very different. Therefore I'm rather opposed to Turkish membership in the EU, at least in the short and medium term. Religion, however, has little to do with it and is a truly poor (and eventually non-European) excuse to be used.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 17): How is Israel, in a way, a European country as well?

It isn't in any way a European country. Eurovision is an entertainment organisation, not a political organisation. It's only the voting that's political.   

Should not be because of it's human rights record & needs improve relations with the Greek sector of Cyprus.

Quoting Egmcman (Reply 31): Should not be because of it's human rights record & needs improve relations with the Greek sector of Cyprus.

exactly ! The turk Government does not respect the Human Rights , and the Military has a way too strong role here (Though it may be good what they do )

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 21): Christian way of being . Muslim countries don't have lost anything in the EU .

What Christian way of beeing? We had centuries of wars between the Christians, including the actual conflict in North Ireland.

I as atheist say: Christian way of beeing? No, thank you!

Of the 494.7 million EU citizens, 224.5 million are Roman Catholic, 115 million are atheist, 57.8 million are protestant, 39 million are Orthodox, 15.9 million are Muslim and 1.5 million are Jewish.

Axel

[Edited 2008-03-03 09:37:43]

Quoting Egmcman (Reply 31): Should not be because of it's human rights record & needs improve relations with the Greek sector of Cyprus.

But Turkey can always change this (and for the moment I see no way they can join the EU). The question thrown up here by LHStaralliance was if a country with a NON-CHRISTIAN historical background should be admitted into the EU.
My opinion is that if a country fullfills the conditions (human rights, no open border disputes, economic stability) and has at least part of the territory in Europe , it should be admitted. On the other hand we just admitted two countries, which IMO do not fullfill these requirements fully, Bulgaria and Romania.

Jan

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 28): Turkey has its most important metropolis and much of its industry and its services even geographically on the European continent, and Turkey, just as Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia are regarded as Europe, for instance by CEPT. Israel "in a way" is a European country, as practically all its economic and traffic-wise links are with Europe (and the USA). Cyprus, to say it again, is in Europe to zero percent.

You say that geographical placement dictates that Turkey is European, but it doesn't. At the same time you see Cyprus, a European country, is not geographically completely European. Bottom line is, geography doesn't ultimately dictate whether a country belongs to Europe or not.

That argument doesn't hold water and will be completely dismissed. Asides from Cyprus, you can take Iceland as another example, where half the country is geographically in America. It is still indisputably European.

As for the argument about economic ties, that doesn't hold water either. A great many countries have immense economical ties to the EU, but that doesn't make them European or eligible for ascension into the Union. No more than China or Japan are part of North America, despite immense economic ties between them.

Nobody is arguing that a minuscule part of Turkey is on the European continent or that there aren't significant economic ties between the two.

Furthermore basing Turkey in Europe because of its membership in the European Conference of Postal and Telecommunications Administrations (CEPT) is laughable. Again, Japan uses the same telecommuniactions standards as North America as do many countries in S-America, but some postal-and telecommunication standards organization doesn't tie continents together.

Of all the things you drag up... CEPT? I don't even have to sink your argument, you do that all by yourself!

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 28): Turkey shares a good part of culture with the Balkans.

Such as? Can you name examples relevant to this discussion?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 28): Because the Turks did NOT expect the Arab countries to get into Bilateral association treaties with the E.U.. Turkey in a way was overtaken on the right, and realized this fairly late.

Turkey hasn't shown interest in actively reforming towards EU standards because the Arab countries got into a bi-lateral association with the EU? You're going to have to explain this one further, because this doesn't seem relevant to me.

Also you are going to have to explain what you mean by that Turkey was 'in a way overtaken on the right', what that means and how realizing that 'fairly late' has anything to do with their lackluster efforts towards the EU.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 28): Again, its most important metropolis, a considerable part of its population and of its industry and much of the services (banks, insurance, etc) are IN Europe, and most of its economic links are with the rest of Europe

Again, as well you know, geography does not dictate whether a country is European or not, let alone whether it is eligible for EU ascension, nor do economic ties. Of course Turkey has economic ties with the EU, because the EU has plenty of money and Turkey has plenty of cheap labor. The relationship is akin of the relationship between the USA and Mexico and as such doesn't make Turkey any more or less European than it already is - or rather is not.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 28): Albania and Bosnia will join the E.U., not now of course but in the longer term, and both are Muslim.

Which proves religion hasn't got anything to do with the fact that Turkey hasn't joined the EU already and will not in the foreseeable future, just like religion won't play a role in the eventual application of Albania and Bosnia to the Union. Whether Albania or Bosnia will ever apply or even accepted is academic and irrelevant to the discussion, since the EU will not be expanded for an indefinite amount of time.

According to your profile you are 56-65 years old, so to put it another way: You will not live to see it unless you will live to be more than one hundred years old, if it happens at all.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 28): hardly ! The E.U. is based on the idea of a united Europe. You will find it difficult to find your "Western-Christian way" anywhere in the E.U. foundation documents

   Agreed, there you are completely correct.

saludos

Asturias

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19): What about if in future Albania and Bosnia want to join? Both countries are clearly within the geographical limits of Europe, but both have a predominantly Muslim population.

That is a very important point! I think Bosnia would be allowed to join only because it would be blatantly obvious something was amiss if the other former Yugoslav nations are allowed and Bosnia was not. This is down the line though. Albania I don't think has a legitimate shot. The difference here is that Turkey is a power house with a large populace and an ever strengthening economy. Strong enough to rock the EU boat. This is not something that holds true for Bosnia or Albania. The powers that be in Brussels are very interested in growing the EU but ensuring control stays where it has always been.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 20): If you can demonstrate that the EU has ever made the condition that a country needs to be Christian to join, you have a point. Otherwise, it would only help your arguments to drop that religious-bias claim immediately.

Of course it's not a written policy but it is a genuine, very real bias. Largely this has in origins in the composition of Europe but it's still there and still a factor. To say that it's not is a little naive.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 20): No. Romania was and is in terms of ideology, technology, military and broader outlook more in line with the EU than Turkey was and is. That is a fact. That is why Romania is now a member of the EU and Turkey is not.

You are joking right? Did you even think about your response or did you just decide to contradict everything I said? Ideology: We're talking about the same Romania that was communist with tighter links to Moscow rather than Brussels or Washington shares EU ideology hahaha right? Ideology is not washed out and replaced overnight. It takes time, generations even to transition.

Technology: Anything from internet usage to cellular penetration to ISO standard manufacturing leans in Turkey's favor. How you can argue that Romania has the advantage technologically speaking is beyond me.

Military: Romania's involvement with western military initiatives has in the past been hindered by the lack of quality in their military. Aging soviet era Migs and other hardware are the foundation of the Romanian military hardly in line with the EU. The Turks have and continue to look to the west for military needs.

View Large View Medium Photo © Radek Oneksiak

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Quoting Asturias (Reply 20): Your opinion goes right against reality. If you were right, then Turkey would already be a member of the EU. Which is it isn't and Romania is.

My opinion involves understanding the reality we are in. Not applying simple specious reasoning to accept the status quo. You should try thinking for yourself sometime, it's an interesting sensation.  

Quoting Asturias (Reply 20): Gypsies have nothing to do with Romanian EU ascension. I don't see a reason to address that further.

Well one of the strikes against Turkey is its checkered human rights situation. So why is that OK to discuss in the context of membership but marginalization of gypsies in Romania is "nothing to do" Romania's membership. Of course you being Spanish might have affected how you view gypsies... I know Gypsies are treated in Spain so maybe that's acceptable to you...

Quoting Asturias (Reply 20): You played the race card first? OK, then. Good for you, because tactics like that only scuttle your argument. You must be proud of yourself.

The fact that I played it first and you chose to ignore it till your other arguments were shattered is the telling part of your participation in this thread.

YOWza

Quoting Asturias (Reply 35): geography doesn't ultimately dictate whether a country belongs to Europe or not

of course not. So that both Cyprus which is geographically 100% in Asia as well as Anatolia are part of Europe.
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Quoting Asturias (Reply 35): a minuscule part of Turkey

Istanbul and Thracia are NOT "minuscule" but are a MAJOR PART of Turkey
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Quoting Asturias (Reply 35): Turkey shares a good part of culture with the Balkans. Such as? Can you name examples relevant to this discussion?

the arts, music, cuisine, etc
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Quoting Asturias (Reply 35): Turkey hasn't shown interest in actively reforming towards EU standards because the Arab countries got into a bi-lateral association with the EU?

NO !
Turkey in fact HAS shown interest in actively reforming towards EU standards all along, and has implemented many reforms, but thought not to be under pressure as being far ahead in regard to European matters. The Association-Treaties of the more important parts of the Arab World however now has almost deleted the Turkish lead, for instance in regard to agricultural products but also in regard to industry and science and whatever. The Turks now had to realize that they now have to speed things up. People above mentioned President Sarkozy. But unlike Mrs Merkel, Mr Sarkozy recently remarked that he in case of REAL progress of Turkey is ready to reconsider his attitude.
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Quoting Asturias (Reply 35): Also you are going to have to explain what you mean by that Turkey was 'in a way overtaken on the right', what that means and how realizing that 'fairly late' has anything to do with their lackluster efforts towards the EU.

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Again, less than a decade ago Turkey was closely alligned with the E.U. thanks to its association treaty, while the Arab countries had to co-operate with Europe on the basis of relations out of colonial time. This meant that Turkey was well placed for exports to the E.U., while Egypt for example had to overcome the usual problems. But in the meantime, the Arab countries, thanks to Messrs Dominique de Villepin and Nicolas Sarkozy, but on the basis of an idea of late King Hassan II of Morocco, have carefully adopted to the conditions of the E.U. for wideranging Bilateral Association Treaties and are now on the same level as Turkey. No, the Turks suddenly felt like somebody on a highway overtaken on the right side. And while the Arab countries now have it both ways, on one side the membership of the Arab League and on the other side the association with the E.U., Turkey has now become the "odd man out".
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According to this interesting line of argument, Canada would be an excellent candidate for EU membership, well except for the fact that it's a long way from Europe:

In most respects it would be a much easier fit than Ukraine, let alone Turkey. It effortlessly meets the EU's so-called Copenhagen criteria for membership, including democratic government, the rule of law, a well-regulated market economy and respect for minority rights (Canada's a world-leader on that). Canada is rich, so would be a much-needed net contributor to the European budget at a time when the EU has been taking in lots of poorer states. One of Europe's besetting weaknesses is disagreement between the British and the French, but on this the two historic rivals would instantly agree. English-speaking Canada would strengthen the Anglophone group in the EU, Quebec the Francophone.

http://rfmcdpei.livejournal.com/1449160.html?mode=reply

[Edited 2008-03-03 11:09:46]

Quoting David L (Reply 30): It isn't in any way a European country. Eurovision is an entertainment organisation, not a political organisation. It's only the voting that's political. Indeed  [quote=YOWza,reply=36]Of course it's not a written policy but it is a genuine, very real bias. Largely this has in origins in the composition of Europe but it's still there and still a factor. To say that it's not is a little naive.

I have nothing to substantiate your claim other than.. your claim. Can you offer a single shred of anything that substantiates your outlandish claim?

Quoting YOWza (Reply 36): You are joking right? Did you even think about your response or did you just decide to contradict everything I said?

Not at all, however you didn't substantiate your claims at all. You just threw them out there, expecting people to automatically take you at your word when in reality if your claims had any merit at all Turkey would already be a member nation of the EU, instead of Romania while the opposite is true - and you brush that away with claims of religious bias which you can't back up.

Not only should people be sceptical of such claims, they should ignore them for the absurdity they are.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 36): Ideology: We're talking about the same Romania that was communist with tighter links to Moscow rather than Brussels or Washington shares EU ideology hahaha right? Ideology is not washed out and replaced overnight. It takes time, generations even to transition.

We're talking about the same Romania which threw away its ties with Moscow as soon as it could to embrace and reaffirm its ties to its neighbors in Europe. Indeed it fought with France and western Europe in WWI, so historically a W-European ally while in WWII it was forced into a fruitless alliance with Germany in 1940 which was ended by king Michael I of Romania in 1944 and had Romania switch sides to the Allies, where they belonged. Only from 1947 to 1989 was Romania under the heel of Communism and its only time in history where it wasn't a W-European ally. Forty years. An insignificant time in history, half a lifetime. People in their twenties were raised in non-Communist Romania and when they were sixty, again in non-Communist Romania. A generation didn't even pass.

Your historical revisionism isn't helping your case. Romania has no particular ties to Moscow today nor is it natural or historical. Rather ties with W-Europe, which is natural for their language is very closely related to Spanish and French. I've never been to Romania, but I can read Romanian. I really don't think you know what you're talking about.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 36): Technology: Anything from internet usage to cellular penetration to ISO standard manufacturing leans in Turkey's favor. How you can argue that Romania has the advantage technologically speaking is beyond me.

Mmm well, internet and cell-phones, ISO standards are well and fine - however they don't demonstrate technological advancement like education and growth potential does, where Romania wipes the floor with Turkey. Because of geographical placement, cultural connections to neighbors and immense growth potential, education and human rights, Romania *is* technologically with the advantage over Turkey. In a little over a decade, Romania has achieved more than Turkey has in half a century. The future is bright for Romania, while it looks rather stagnant for Turkey, at best.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 36): Military: Romania's involvement with western military initiatives has in the past been hindered by the lack of quality in their military. Aging soviet era Migs and other hardware are the foundation of the Romanian military hardly in line with the EU. The Turks have and continue to look to the west for military needs.

Turkey just takes US handouts in return for being the US puppet in the Middle-East. The US says jump, and Turkey asks how high. In return they get nice advanced weapons they can use to attack and wipe out those pesky Kurds. Even in Iraq. Regardless, while Romania will have all its military equipment from Europe from now on, it isn't a requirement to have a standing military in Europe. I thought you were talking about military *policy*, not actual military equipment. The EU couldn't care less about how shiny your missiles or airplanes are. However the EU cares whether you can be relied upon to be on their side and in step militarily. Which Romania is and Turkey is not. They're US allies.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 36): My opinion involves understanding the reality we are in. Not applying simple specious reasoning to accept the status quo. You should try thinking for yourself sometime, it's an interesting sensation.

Your opinion involves a prejudice toward the EU and its attitude towards Turkey. You are clearly biased towards Turkey, which is fine but it doesn't make you right. There are good reasons, which have been put forth in many a thread on these forums, for denying Turkish ascension into the Union for the foreseeable future. You are welcome to use the search feature to read them, but unless specifically mentioned, I can't be bothered to repeat them here. Also, you keep implying that the EU is denying Turkey on religious basis, without any substantiation other than that one must be naive not to see it. You don't have an argument.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 36): Well one of the strikes against Turkey is its checkered human rights situation. So why is that OK to discuss in the context of membership but marginalization of gypsies in Romania is "nothing to do" Romania's membership. Of course you being Spanish might have affected how you view gypsies... I know Gypsies are treated in Spain so maybe that's acceptable to you...

There is a difference between history and present times. That's why I see no reason to address this when it comes to Romania. Turkey on the other hand is currently attempting a slow genocide of Kurds. Past treatment of Gypsies in Romania just isn't relevant to this discussion. In Romania today as they are in many European countries, they live outside the society if they can. They are not hunted or killed systematically or discriminated against like Turks do with Kurds today. Even if they did, two wrongs do not make a right. If Romania were treating Gypsies today as Turks are treating their minorities, Romania wouldn't be an EU member. That's one of many reasons that prevents Turkish ascension.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 36): The fact that I played it first and you chose to ignore it till your other arguments were shattered is the telling part of your participation in this thread.

You should be thankful that I chose to ignore it.. frankly I didn't even notice it. Playing the race card dumbs down discussions and removes the credibility of the one who played it, for he's stopped using logic and resorts to emotional and politically correct drivel to make his point.

In other words, playing out the race card is a bad thing. If you have to do that, then you don't have a ground to stand on.

saludos

Asturias

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 37): of course not. So that both Cyprus which is geographically 100% in Asia as well as Anatolia are part of Europe.

Ah yes, you see how geography doesn't dictate whether a country is European or not. For sure it has a fundamental affect, but it isn't the final word.

Cyprus is, I agree, 100% geographically part of Asia and yet a European country. Anatolia (Turkey minus the geographically European fraction) is also 100% in Asia, yet it is Asian. Cyprus isn't, Turkey is. We obviously don't agree on that, but we agree that geography does not dictate where countries fall in continents. That is enough for me.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 37): Istanbul and Thracia are NOT "minuscule" but are a MAJOR PART of Turkey

Miniscule, by my definition, is 'very small. Turkey is comprised of an area of 783,562 sq km and of these only 23,764 sq km are part of the European continent. That means about 3% of Turkey belongs to the European continent and that is in my mind a minuscule part. Tiny, insignificant, an afterthought.

A major part would imply that it was something substantially more than 3% - however you could of course spin this and say it is a major economic part of Turkey or somesuch but that would be disingenuous, because I wrote: "a minuscule part of Turkey is on the European continent".

I stand by my claim, but I invite anyone to make up their mind as to whether 3% is minuscule or not. Apparently you think 3% is a major part. The word major implies 'the larger' part. As in the word 'majority'. I can't agree that your claim applies here.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 37): the arts, music, cuisine, etc

Allright, for argument's sake let's say you are right. I don't really know much about what exactly comprises Turkish or Balkan art and cuisine. However I would argue that while they are certainly cultural connections, these are rather superficial. By that logic half of the EU should start applying to the USA, because we already share so much of their superficial entertainment and culinary culture. Hamburgers, pop-music, etc. In my experience these things are in general rather similar throughout the western world, but always superficial and in now way indicative of a nation's actual culture.

I was hoping for something substantial, something that clearly tied Turkey and the Balkans culturally today. In other words, relevant to this discussion. Oh and it can't be religion, because that isn't relevant either, since the EU doesn't pick and choose nations' eligibility for Union appliance based on religion.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 37): Turkey in fact HAS shown interest in actively reforming towards EU standards all along, and has implemented many reforms, but thought not to be under pressure as being far ahead in regard to European matters. The Association-Treaties of the more important parts of the Arab World however now has almost deleted the Turkish lead, for instance in regard to agricultural products but also in regard to industry and science and whatever. The Turks now had to realize that they now have to speed things up. People above mentioned President Sarkozy. But unlike Mrs Merkel, Mr Sarkozy recently remarked that he in case of REAL progress of Turkey is ready to reconsider his attitude. Again, less than a decade ago Turkey was closely aligned with the E.U. thanks to its association treaty, while the Arab countries had to co-operate with Europe on the basis of relations out of colonial time. This meant that Turkey was well placed for exports to the E.U., while Egypt for example had to overcome the usual problems. But in the meantime, the Arab countries, thanks to Messrs Dominique de Villepin and Nicolas Sarkozy, but on the basis of an idea of late King Hassan II of Morocco, have carefully adopted to the conditions of the E.U. for wideranging Bilateral Association Treaties and are now on the same level as Turkey. No, the Turks suddenly felt like somebody on a highway overtaken on the right side. And while the Arab countries now have it both ways, on one side the membership of the Arab League and on the other side the association with the E.U., Turkey has now become the "odd man out".

Thanks for the explanation. I think you give this more weight than it deserves, but hey. That's your opinion. Personally I don't think it matters either way for Turkey what relations are between the Arab nations and the EU. The conditions to be considered for EU ascension don't change regardless what deal Arab countries get.

Nor do I view this as an excuse for Turkey dragging its feet regarding improvements at home to fulfil EU pre-requsits. If they were serious, then reforms would be going on full-force no matter what other neighbors were up to. Half-hearted reforms and endless sucking up to the USA just hasn't helped Turkey come any closer to the EU.

In fact, I don't think it is in the best interest of Turkey anyway and that's the real reason for the slow and inefficient reforms. Turkey knows it is really better outside the EU and with strong ties to the US. I agree with that.

EU ascension for Turkey is just a pipe-dream that would ultimately not benefit Turkey nor the EU.

saludos

Asturias

Quoting Asturias (Reply 40): Miniscule, by my definition, is 'very small. Turkey is comprised of an area of 783,562 sq km and of these only 23,764 sq km are part of the European continent. That means about 3% of Turkey belongs to the European continent and that is in my mind a minuscule part. Tiny, insignificant, an afterthought.

You refer to the land area. But Istanbul has a population of more than 10 millions, and the rest of Thracia is densily populated and so, European Turkey has a population of some 20 million people, and this is rather significant and is almost a third of the population of Turkey. And in view of the importance of Istanbul it can be said that a good part of Turkey takes part on the European continent.
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Quoting Asturias (Reply 40): it matters either way for Turkey what relations are between the Arab nations and the EU.

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It matters a lot. Because Turkey BEFORE was in a privileged position in regard to agricultural exports to Western Europe, and now, the Maghreb and Egypt enjoy the same advantages. Which means that the sales have become more difficult and at worst the sales prices got down.
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Quoting Asturias (Reply 40): If they were serious, then reforms would be going on full-force

BUT reforms ARE going on full-force
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Quoting Asturias (Reply 40): that would ultimately not benefit Turkey

THIS indeed is the question. A famous journalist, Peter Scholl-Latour, recently wrote in a book that Turkey should stay outside the E.U. and use its bridge-function between Europe and the Middle East to a maximum, as he argues that Turkey is large and strong enough to do so.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 39): Quoting YOWza (Reply 36): Technology: Anything from internet usage to cellular penetration to ISO standard manufacturing leans in Turkey's favor. How you can argue that Romania has the advantage technologically speaking is beyond me. Mmm well, internet and cell-phones, ISO standards are well and fine - however they don't demonstrate technological advancement like education and growth potential does, where Romania wipes the floor with Turkey. Because of geographical placement, cultural connections to neighbors and immense growth potential, education and human rights, Romania *is* technologically with the advantage over Turkey. In a little over a decade, Romania has achieved more than Turkey has in half a century. The future is bright for Romania, while it looks rather stagnant for Turkey, at best.

Romania is now simply the poorest country in the EU with the lowest wages. This is why so many companies (e.g. Nokia) are relocating their factories there. If your country is as poor as Romania, it is easy to have huge growth rates.
Also, with Romania being an EU member, it is now easy for them to trade within the EU, plus additionally they are receiving lots of EU infrastructure funds money.
Romania has major problems with corruption though. (69 on Transparency International's index of perceived corruption, Turkey is 64, Denmark is 1, Germany is 16 , Spain is 25, US is 20, Somalia is the last with 179)
http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2007

At the moment many European companies ( e.g. car parts manufacturers like Bosch) are also moving production to Turkey, Turkey is not as backward as many people think.

Jan

Quoting Asturias (Reply 40): Miniscule, by my definition, is 'very small. Turkey is comprised of an area of 783,562 sq km and of these only 23,764 sq km are part of the European continent.

Cyprus - 9,251 sq km
Slovenia - 20,273 sq km (currently EU presidency)
Malta - 316 sq km



So are we making "area" one of the requirements now?



(I didn't include the small balkan states which will join the EU in the future like montenegro, macedonia, albania, kosovo, which all are pretty darn small)

Quoting Asturias (Reply 39): There is a difference between history and present times. That's why I see no reason to address this when it comes to Romania. Turkey on the other hand is currently attempting a slow genocide of Kurds. Past treatment of Gypsies in Romania just isn't relevant to this discussion. In Romania today as they are in many European countries, they live outside the society if they can. They are not hunted or killed systematically or discriminated against like Turks do with Kurds today. Even if they did, two wrongs do not make a right. If Romania were treating Gypsies today as Turks are treating their minorities, Romania wouldn't be an EU member. That's one of many reasons that prevents Turkish ascension.

Turkey is not at war with the Kurdish population (which BTW has voted overwhelmingly for the moderate Islamic Conservative party of Erdogan, and which is comparable to the European Christian-Democrat parties like the CDU in Germany, many conservative Muslims in Germany btw. vote for the CDU, since it's conservative values are closest to what they want), but with a small, militant Stalinist party named the PKK.
Last spring the PKK broke an armistice and started attacking Turkish troops in eastern Anatolia.
The Turkish Army kept quiet for several months until they were forced by popular opinion to retaliate.
Many of those killed by the PKK were Kurdish conscripts serving in the turkish army (considered traitors by the PKK).
The PKK started it's attacks after the elections proved that they lost massive support from the population.

On the other hand, the gypsies in many eastern European countries are FORCED to live in slim like conditions, withourt a chance of getting a proper education or job. Living outside society is not their choice.

Jan

This discussion is pointless.

Hell will freeze over 100 times and I will drive a Honda before Turkey is allowed to join.

When can we kick Israel out of Eurovision and more importantly...UEFA?

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 45): When can we kick Israel out of Eurovision and more importantly...UEFA?

never, it would be said that it's antisemitic so Hell will freeze 100000 Times before Israel is out of Uefa and Eurovision !

No.

Most of Turkey is in Asia anyhow.

The E.U. should dissolve and go back to independent nations as well.   

[Edited 2008-03-03 12:33:12]

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 41): You refer to the land area. But Istanbul has a population of more than 10 millions, and the rest of Thracia is densily populated and so, European Turkey has a population of some 20 million people, and this is rather significant and is almost a third of the population of Turkey. And in view of the importance of Istanbul it can be said that a good part of Turkey takes part on the European continent.

Yes I refer to the land area, which is why I indicated so in my post. I never said a large part of the Turkish population wasn't based in and around that area. Indeed, it is logical, for since ancient times Constantinople has been an important center of business. And business goes on, despite cowardly invasions, money must flow and people are naturally attracted to centers of commerce.

However, we were discussing geography and I specifically said so. Why you choose to spin it, I don't know. It doesn't make one iota of difference. Turkey has still no claim to be European. We've already established that there is a minuscule part of Turkey in geographical Europe, but we've also established that it is irrelevant when debating whether Turkey is European or not. So I don't understand the spin, but go right ahead.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 41): It matters a lot. Because Turkey BEFORE was in a privileged position in regard to agricultural exports to Western Europe, and now, the Maghreb and Egypt enjoy the same advantages. Which means that the sales have become more difficult and at worst the sales prices got down.

Allright, so Turkey has lost some economic position among the nations of the Middle-East, but how does that affect Turkey's eligibility for EU ascension? To me it sounds a bit like you're saying that now that so many Turkish neighbors have similar or even better deals with the EU than Turkey that Turkey *needs* to join the EU and that gives it right to join the EU.

It's a bit hard to explain this to Western persons.. The logic goes something like this: I used to get money from you, but now you are sharing that money with others so my part is smaller. Therefore I have a right to claim more from you. You owe me that.

This "logic" makes no sense to a Westerner. It does not compute.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 41): BUT reforms ARE going on full-force

You could have fooled me. Last I checked Islamists were in power in Turkey. They are not the vanguard of reforms.. unless you mean muslimization reforms.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 41): THIS indeed is the question. A famous journalist, Peter Scholl-Latour, recently wrote in a book that Turkey should stay outside the E.U. and use its bridge-function between Europe and the Middle East to a maximum, as he argues that Turkey is large and strong enough to do so.

Indeed it is the question. It is my opinion that Turkey's interests are indeed better served outside the EU than within it. The exercises needed for Turkish ascension, would crush the country anyway. That could hardly be good for them.

saludos

Asturias

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 42): Romania is now simply the poorest country in the EU with the lowest wages. This is why so many companies (e.g. Nokia) are relocating their factories there. If your country is as poor as Romania, it is easy to have huge growth rates.

It is indeed currently the poorest EU country, which explains partially how its economy is growing this fast. Even so, Romania was very poor in 1989 when it threw the Communist schackles, but for ten years there was little growth at all. A country needs to make reforms for the economy to flourish when it has been under economic tyranny for four decades. Romania did just that and it won't be the poorest country of the EU for long.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 42): At the moment many European companies ( e.g. car parts manufacturers like Bosch) are also moving production to Turkey, Turkey is not as backward as many people think.

Indeed, nor is Turkey as developed as some people think, let alone as consistently developed as some would have you believe. Parts are quite western, most parts are post-apocaplyptic in appearance. Most as in measured in square kilometers. Most of the population lives in relative poverty and has for centuries. Literacy is about 75% for women.

Take Romania for example, then it is 97%. Potential is so much more in Romania than Turkey.

saludos

Asturias