Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
iliribdl
Topic Author
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:34 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:31 pm

I agree Alex, we'll have to start one some time in the future, talking about Prishtina Airport and the airlines serving it. I guess we'll get some more now that its independent. I wonder if ATA will do the JFK - PRN leg again this summer.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:06 pm



Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 41):
skilled labor force in numbers or in experience that Poland, Slovakia, Romania, Hungary etc. have.

well, you should hear the comments of West Europeans about the "experience" of people from these countries. Only, of course, the driving style of Poles, Slovaks and Hungarians may be more to the taste of West Europeans than the one of people from the more southern areas of ex-Yugoslavia. Beside the point, that most people coming from Romania or countries in the Mediterranean in Western Europe are automatically assumed to take "lesser" work, and will be "classified" as "manual labour" in many places, which can be frustrating. The jobs for "newcomers" including people from Eastern Europe is rather with the waste-disposal-services, in healthcare and in the gastronomy (waiters, washers), which means that you can often find fairly or even highly educated people in "low" jobs, for money's sake.
-

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 42):
The two districts in Northern Kosovo with apparently overwhelming Serbian population should be given the chance to vote about their destiny, and have the chance to leave Kosovo in favour of Serbia. I think there has been enough confligt in ex-Yugoslavia in the past 17 years, and so, a humane solution of that kind might be best for all .

How about the Albanians in the Presevo valley (including Medvegja and Bujanovc)?

Very much the same. There ought to be a public vote about whether they prefer to stay with Macedonia or get into Kosovo. I can recommend the vote about the Canton of Jura which took place in the Canton of Berne some 20 years ago. It was counted district-wise. Any district voting in favour of Jura but without a border to another pro-Jura district had to stay with Berne, and any district voting in favour of Berne but without a border to another pro-Berne district would have become part of the new Canton. Luckily, none occurred. Whatever, the votes of the two areas you mentioned should be kept separate, out of principle
-

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 42):
If they were to start that process, the whole map of the Balkans would change, and each nationality would ask to connect to their "own" country. (Serbians from Bosnia and Croatia, Albanians from Montenegro and Macedonia, Greeks claiming parts of Macedonia, etc)

-
not an easy thing I admit, but along the idea that the power should be with the people and not the people with old borders
-

Quoting Asturias (Reply 45):
so arrogant

to state that Spain should recognize the right for self-determination of the people of Gibraltar is not arrogant, but simply stating a fact. They have an elected parliament and a Prime Minister and to all appearance no desire to become part of Spain. That they were to become a part of Morocco of course is not a serious idea but a joke
-

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 47):
Northern Kosovo should stay Serbia,

Serbia indeed should press for public votes of these areas. To have proper and serious solutions is better than to postpone problems which may "erupt" in one way or the other later.
-

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 50):
we'll have to start one some time in the future, talking about Prishtina Airport and the airlines serving it.

-
Kosovo indeed should try to become a member of ICAO and to get its own ICAO nationality mark. A national CAA should be established as a first step. But I think that Prishtina Airport has limits both capacity wise and in regard to the technical facilities.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25674
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:02 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 49):
Serbs in Northern Kosovo should have right to choose wheter they want to remain in Serbia (because they would rather live in Serbia, not in independent Kosovo).

 checkmark 
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:32 pm



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 21):
(ok that was a joke, but you'll see investments happen in the coming months and some of the big companies in Europe will open factories / businesses in Kosovo, since its cheaper for them)

Just as FDI (Foreign Direct Investment) has been absolutely pouring into Albania?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 40):
Quoting DETA737 (Reply 24):
the Spanish government would in theory have to recognise Gibraltar's independence right to self-determination.

Spain in the end will have to do so anyway.

There is no way any respectable sea-faring nation can recognize Gibraltar as an independent state. It was created purely out of the desire of a country without access to the Mediterranean to control it's shipping lanes and is as much of a country as Suez is.

Of course, the trade-off is Spain will have to stop being so anal about Ceuta and Mellila, and any agreement about Gibraltar will have to be conditional on Spain giving back those territories to Morocco.

Quoting PA110 (Reply 46):
Yes, the lack of any semblance of a regional/national economy has created an underground economy. This is in part due to years of neglect by the Serbian govvernment to maintain an equal living standard across the entire country. Instead, they ignored Kosovo for decades, despite it's rich cultural significance. Kosovar officials need to step up now, and put an end to the drug/arms/prostitute trade.

Albania has been independent for a very long time now and the basis for their "economy" is the same as Kosovo's. You cannot blame lack of investment by Serbia as the cause of the status quo in Kosovo.
 
ALexeu
Posts: 1447
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:01 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:39 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 51):
Kosovo indeed should try to become a member of ICAO and to get its own ICAO nationality mark. A national CAA should be established as a first step. But I think that Prishtina Airport has limits both capacity wise and in regard to the technical facilities.

I doubt. If Russia and PR China strongly oppose Kosovo's independence, I don't know how Kosovo is going to become UN member. Anyway, Kosovo's airspace is still restricted for overflying, unless the a/c is landing in Pristina.
 
User avatar
Asturias
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:49 am



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 51):
to state that Spain should recognize the right for self-determination of the people of Gibraltar is not arrogant, but simply stating a fact. They have an elected parliament and a Prime Minister and to all appearance no desire to become part of Spain. That they were to become a part of Morocco of course is not a serious idea but a joke

You just don't know when to quit, do you? While I'm not surprised, I won't discuss this matter farther with you in this thread, you can re-acquaint yourself with our previous discussions on this matter by using the 'search' feature of these forums. No facts have changed since then, nor has my opinon.

By the way, yes your statement was arrogant - but that's not all! It was also incredibly offensive. Not only that, but your claim it was innocious stacks even more arrogance and disrespect on top of an already impressive pile. You clearly couldn't care less either way, so whatever.

Even your 'joke' was in poor taste and if you thought it was 'funny' then there is something seriously wrong with you.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 53):
There is no way any respectable sea-faring nation can recognize Gibraltar as an independent state. It was created purely out of the desire of a country without access to the Mediterranean to control it's shipping lanes and is as much of a country as Suez is.

Of course, the trade-off is Spain will have to stop being so anal about Ceuta and Mellila, and any agreement about Gibraltar will have to be conditional on Spain giving back those territories to Morocco.

It's as simple as that. Pyrex is 100% correct. I consider this to mark the end of this particular tangent of the topic of discussion.

asturias
 
iliribdl
Topic Author
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:34 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:31 am



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 54):
I doubt. If Russia and PR China strongly oppose Kosovo's independence, I don't know how Kosovo is going to become UN member. Anyway, Kosovo's airspace is still restricted for overflying, unless the a/c is landing in Pristina.

With time it will happen.  Smile
 
ALexeu
Posts: 1447
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:01 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:39 am

I just read in newspapers that Spanish exclave of Llivia (surrounded by France) may become a precedant for Kosovo's Serbian enclaves of Gracanica etc.

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 56):
With time it will happen.

Maybe, but I am dissapointed that most EU countries recognized it after few days. No EU country recognized TRNC, Western Sahara, Abkhazia or Somaliland - they all have more right to be recognized then Kosovo. Shame !

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 53):

What is the status of Olivenca - it was claimed by both Spain and Portugal ?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 51):
to state that Spain should recognize the right for self-determination of the people of Gibraltar is not arrogant, but simply stating a fact. They have an elected parliament and a Prime Minister and to all appearance no desire to become part of Spain. That they were to become a part of Morocco of course is not a serious idea but a joke

That's true. They claim Ceuta and Mellila, but do not the British Gibraltar. Anyway, I think that Gibraltar should stay British, a lot of people would loose their jobs otherwise, and it has been been British for years. I don't know why is Spain so concered about Gibraltar.
As a geography/border geek I love those exclaves/enclaves and geographical curiosities !
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:43 am



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 57):
No EU country recognized TRNC, Western Sahara, Abkhazia or Somaliland

The occupation of Western Sahara by Morocco is not recognised by the UN or anyone else as legitimate. Western Sahara has never been independent however, and so is not recognised as a sovereign state either. It is kind of "stateless" territory.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:19 am



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 53):
about Ceuta and Mellila,

A) are there any polls about what the locals in these two territories would wish ? Known is, for example, that when Tanger was "united" with Morocco, most folks in Tanger were against this to happen.
B) does anybody know whether the two territories for Spain are a loss or a profit in financial terms ? My assumption is that it is a serious profit, but in this I may be wrong
-

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 54):
Kosovo indeed should try to become a member of ICAO and to get its own ICAO nationality mark. A national CAA should be established as a first step. But I think that Prishtina Airport has limits both capacity wise and in regard to the technical facilities.

I doubt. If Russia and PR China strongly oppose Kosovo's independence, I don't know how Kosovo is going to become UN member. Anyway, Kosovo's airspace is still restricted for overflying, unless the a/c is landing in Pristina.

"doubt" is a mild expression ! BUT, you have NOT to be UN-member for being a member of ICAO. Switzerland was member of ICAO, UNESCO, etc without being a member of the UN for many decades. Russia of course might even block an ICAO membership. But, to put it the other way round, the Serbian CAA for sure will not certify anything in Kosovo now or in future. So that Pristina in a way is a UN/EU airport . The Kosovaris of course might ally aviation-wise with another country like France or Turkey, with airplanes registered in and controlled by the CAA of that country.
-

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 57):
No EU country recognized TRNC, Western Sahara, Abkhazia or Somaliland -

TRNC = blocked by Greece
Western Sahara = no existing independence, only an independence movement in Tindouf
Abkhazia = Russia not (yet ?) pressing ahead with this
Somaliland = blocked by OAU and the Arab League (holy borders)
-

Quoting Asturias (Reply 55):
this matter

whatever you "arguments", it is clear to me that Gibraltar is NOT to be part of Spain against the will of its people
-

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 57):
I don't know why is Spain so concered about Gibraltar.

I fear it is, as you can see from the reactions above, a matter of prestige and national pride, and rather a psychological factor. If you compare Gibraltar with what the Spanish coast has to offer, it is NOT a matter of profit or real importance. In view of realities, I think that the Status-Quo is the only way for the foreseeable future.
-

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 58):
The occupation of Western Sahara by Morocco is not recognised by the UN or anyone else as legitimate.

This of course is correct. HOWEVER, it in reality is fully integrated into Morocco, and the majority of people there NOW is from Morocco "mainland", and for more than 20 years by now. The Moroccan leadership simply is playing for time, so that they can hold a public vote with whomever lived there for more than 25 years and whomever born there allowed to participate, and the result is clear. THIS is the reason why the actual support by the Algerian government for the "movement" is lukewarm at best. Nobody has to "recognize" anything in fact, as the area increasingly simply is part of Morocco. The ethnic groups in the former Spanish Sahara (Rio del Oro) are much the same as the one in areas around Marrakech and Essaouira.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:58 am



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 59):
This of course is correct. HOWEVER, it in reality is fully integrated into Morocco, and the majority of people there NOW is from Morocco "mainland", and for more than 20 years by now. The Moroccan leadership simply is playing for time, so that they can hold a public vote with whomever lived there for more than 25 years and whomever born there allowed to participate, and the result is clear. THIS is the reason why the actual support by the Algerian government for the "movement" is lukewarm at best. Nobody has to "recognize" anything in fact, as the area increasingly simply is part of Morocco. The ethnic groups in the former Spanish Sahara (Rio del Oro) are much the same as the one in areas around Marrakech and Essaouira.

You're right - it would seem that Moroccon hegemony over Western Sahara will be de-facto "recognised" simply through disinterest and a lack of any viable alternative. Algeria has it's own border disputes with Morocco as well as the territory of Western Sahara, but it's easier for them to argue with just Morocco then with both Morocco and some putative Western Sahara government.
 
ALexeu
Posts: 1447
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:01 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:58 am



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 59):
This of course is correct. HOWEVER, it in reality is fully integrated into Morocco, and the majority of people there NOW is from Morocco "mainland", and for more than 20 years by now. The Moroccan leadership simply is playing for time, so that they can hold a public vote with whomever lived there for more than 25 years and whomever born there allowed to participate, and the result is clear. THIS is the reason why the actual support by the Algerian government for the "movement" is lukewarm at best. Nobody has to "recognize" anything in fact, as the area increasingly simply is part of Morocco. The ethnic groups in the former Spanish Sahara (Rio del Oro) are much the same as the one in areas around Marrakech and Essaouira.

South Africa for example, recognized Sahrawi Arab Dem. Rep. Although, what you are saying is totally correct. Sahrawi's only control Eastern and southern part of Western Sahara.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 59):
TRNC = blocked by Greece
Western Sahara = no existing independence, only an independence movement in Tindouf
Abkhazia = Russia not (yet ?) pressing ahead with this
Somaliland = blocked by OAU and the Arab League (holy borders)

Kosovo = blocked by Serbia...

Did San Marino, Liechtenstein and Andorra recognize Kosovo? I know that Liechtenstein has similar foreign affairs with Switzerland. Both Switzerland and Austria recognized Kosovo.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:02 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 61):
South Africa for example, recognized Sahrawi Arab Dem. Rep. Although, what you are saying is totally correct. Sahrawi's only control Eastern and southern part of Western Sahara.

Which South Africa - the new one or the old one ? The old SA would recognise anything with a flag, as long as they recognised the "homelands" in return.
 
ALexeu
Posts: 1447
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:01 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:14 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 62):
Which South Africa - the new one or the old one ? The old SA would recognise anything with a flag, as long as they recognised the "homelands" in return.

I think that both recognize(d).

As for the homelands, AFAIK, no country ever recognized them.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:20 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 63):
As for the homelands, AFAIK, no country ever recognized them.

True, not officially anyway, but Taiwan had practical relations with most of them.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:51 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 60):
Moroccon hegemony over Western Sahara

-
it in fact is not just "hegemony", it is full integration in any practical sense

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 60):
putative Western Sahara government

another very true point. the leadership of that movement in the early days of President Liamine Zeroual has been very open to "wishes" of the Algerian leadership, but later on, already in the times of General Zeroual refused such "wishes" and increasingly became a nuisance.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:57 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 61):
Liechtenstein

there indeed is no formal recognition by Liechtenstein, but Liechtenstein basically recognizes whatever country is recognized by Switzerland and the Liechtensteiners work with the embassies and consulates in Switzerland. I suppose it is similar with Monaco, San Marino, Vatican and Andorra.
-
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:59 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 66):
Vatican

No. The Vatican maintains it's own embassies and diplomatic recognition, independently from Italy.
 
ALexeu
Posts: 1447
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:01 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:15 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 67):
No. The Vatican maintains it's own embassies and diplomatic recognition, independently from Italy.

Pope said, that he will only support both Belgrade and Pristina descision. Vatican has not recognized Kosovo.
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:24 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 57):
What is the status of Olivenca - it was claimed by both Spain and Portugal ?

Olivença is by law a part of Portugal but has been occupied by Spain for more than 200 years and there is no indication that will change, The portuguese government never talks about it so as not to harm relations with Spain and really the only indicators something is quite not right is when some civic movement takes the government to court about some symbolic gesture, such as allowing or not the Spanish to pay for half of a bridge that crosses the river into Olivença.

Now, I doubt it it is a coincidence that Olivença is way richer than the surrounding spanish region of Extremadura...

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 59):
A) are there any polls about what the locals in these two territories would wish ? Known is, for example, that when Tanger was "united" with Morocco, most folks in Tanger were against this to happen.

Those polls are irrelevant, they are about correcting a historical mistake (or several).

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 59):
If you compare Gibraltar with what the Spanish coast has to offer, it is NOT a matter of profit

Tell you what, I will find a piece of rock in the middle of the English channel that nobody cares about (because it has no "profit" to offer), or build my own if need be, and build a naval base there to control shipping that passes in the channel, how about that?

No offense intended, but your inability to understand why Spain has every right to be pissed off about Gibraltar is symptomatic of someone from a landlocked country.
 
ALexeu
Posts: 1447
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:01 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:39 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 69):
Tell you what, I will find a piece of rock in the middle of the English channel that nobody cares about (because it has no "profit" to offer), or build my own if need be, and build a naval base there to control shipping that passes in the channel, how about that?

No offense intended, but your inability to understand why Spain has every right to be pissed off about Gibraltar is symptomatic of someone from a landlocked country.

Yes, but it has been British for a long time. Just because Gibraltar is Pyrenees peninsula, it doesn't mean that it has to be Spanish - same for Ceuta and Mellila.

Don't forget Macau, which was Portuguese for a long time, but PR Chine can't compare with Spain.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:01 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 69):
No offense intended, but your inability to understand why Spain has every right to be pissed off about Gibraltar is symptomatic of someone from a landlocked country.



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 70):
Yes, but it has been British for a long time. Just because Gibraltar is Pyrenees peninsula, it doesn't mean that it has to be Spanish - same for Ceuta and Mellila.

Gibraltar was ceded to Great Britain in perpetuity by the sovereign legitimate government of the Kingdom of Spain in the treaty of Utrecht in 1713. Spain has no right to be "pissed off". They have the right to request that it be returned, but since such a return is contrary to the expressed wish of the population, this won't happen. By the treaty Spain does have the right of first refusal if the UK ever wishes to dispose of Gibraltar, but that hasn't happened either.
 
ALexeu
Posts: 1447
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:01 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:09 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 71):

Btw, why did SA return Walvis Bay to Namibia?
were there any borders beatween SA and Namibia from 1990 to 1994?
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:15 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 72):
Btw, why did SA return Walvis Bay to Namibia?
were there any borders beatween SA and Namibia from 1990 to 1994?

Practicality and courtesy I guess. Walvis Bay was not part of the original German colony of South West Africa that was governed by South Africa as per the League of Nations mandate after WW1. Walvis Bay was part of the Cape Colony which became part of the Union of South Africa in 1910. The return of Walvis Bay was demanded by Namibia because the territory formed an integral part of Namibia and was an important deep-water port. I guess South Africa felt it was the comradely thing to do, and helped to redress the territorial injustices perpetrated during the colonial era.
 
iliribdl
Topic Author
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:34 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:42 pm

Russia to recognize Kosovo only if Serbia agrees - Putin
http://en.rian.ru/world/20080308/100983311.html

NOVO-OGARYOVO, March 8 (RIA Novosti) - President Vladimir Putin said Saturday Russia could recognize Kosovo's independence only in line with international law, and if Serbia agrees to that.

Asked at a press conference after a meeting with German Chancellor Angela Merkel whether Russia could later recognize Kosovo's independence, Putin said: "This variant exists, but it lies in the framework of international law."

He said it could happen "with consent of all parties, in this case, Serbia." "Should such a compromise be found, we will agree with it," the outgoing Russian leader said.

Serbia's breakaway province of Kosovo unilaterally declared independence on February 17. So far over 25 states, including the United States, Australia, Japan and major European countries, have formally recognized the Republic of Kosovo.

Belgrade has recalled its ambassadors from a number of countries recognizing Kosovo's independence. Russia has pledged to block any move by Kosovo to join the United Nations.



Good news IMO, meaning that Russia will recognize if Serbia does, which in turn tells you that they're not recognizing because it "broke" the laws but because it is Serbia's stand at the moment. If they change it, so will Russia. Very good news indeed.
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:21 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 71):
Gibraltar was ceded to Great Britain in perpetuity by the sovereign legitimate government of the Kingdom of Spain in the treaty of Utrecht in 1713. Spain has no right to be "pissed off". They have the right to request that it be returned, but since such a return is contrary to the expressed wish of the population, this won't happen. By the treaty Spain does have the right of first refusal if the UK ever wishes to dispose of Gibraltar, but that hasn't happened either.

You of all people should know that there is no such thing as a legitimate ruler of a Kingdom. Remember, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

Anyway, Gibraltar was basically stolen from Spain under duress and the UK does not give a shit about it's "population", all it cares about is the naval and the air base. Gibraltar has the same right to be a part of the UK than Marbella does (probably more English-speaking people there).
 
ALexeu
Posts: 1447
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:01 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:40 pm



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 74):

If Serbia recognize it, all countries will...Serbia will (not) recognize Kosovo, or for atleast few years.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 75):
Gibraltar

There is no reason to return Gibraltar to Spain.
1. Britons invested a lot in Gibraltar, it would be unfair to return it to Spain.
2. It is against the law (they signed threaty).
3. Most Gibraltar citizens oppose it.
4. Why return Gibraltar to Spain, but not return Ceuta and Mellila to Morroco?
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:51 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 75):
You of all people should know that there is no such thing as a legitimate ruler of a Kingdom. Remember, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

Moral relativism. We know that NOW, but back then it was good to be the King - he got to decide. Ah, those were the days. When I achieve my goal of nomination to the Supreme Oligarchy, we will return to that golden age again  Smile

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 75):
Gibraltar was basically stolen from Spain under duress and the UK does not give a shit about it's "population", all it cares about is the naval and the air base. Gibraltar has the same right to be a part of the UK than Marbella does (probably more English-speaking people there).

Rubbish - what duress ? Philip V had lost the war but nobody had a gun to his head. Besides, Britain returned Minorca (only to have it taken over by the Germans in the late 1980's  Smile )
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:24 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 76):
There is no reason to return Gibraltar to Spain.
1. Britons invested a lot in Gibraltar, it would be unfair to return it to Spain.
2. It is against the law (they signed threaty).
3. Most Gibraltar citizens oppose it.
4. Why return Gibraltar to Spain, but not return Ceuta and Mellila to Morroco?

1. Britain invested a lot in Hong Kong, it would be unfair to return it to China. Best argument anti-decolonization I've ever heard.
2. That treaty is not worth the paper it was signed in, given the conditions.
3. If you polled the people who lived around the Panama Canal they probably would oppose returning it to Panama as well. Their oppinion is, of course, completely pointless.
4. If you go back to the top, you will see that I stated that any return of Gibraltar has to be conditional of returning Ceuta and Mellila to Morocco. It is high time these colonial relics are terminated.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 77):
Rubbish - what duress ? Philip V had lost the war but nobody had a gun to his head. Besides, Britain returned Minorca (only to have it taken over by the Germans in the late 1980's )

He signed it as a peace treaty after losing the war - it is like saying the Germans didn't sign Versailles under duress.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:32 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 78):
He signed it as a peace treaty after losing the war - it is like saying the Germans didn't sign Versailles under duress.

Ever so slight difference. Spain was not in any danger of being occupied if she failed to sign the treaty. It was just how it worked in those days. And it was nearly 300 years ago - time to get over it, don't you think ?

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 78):
1. Britain invested a lot in Hong Kong, it would be unfair to return it to China. Best argument anti-decolonization I've ever heard.

Britian had most of HK on a 99 year lease - that was a treaty too. The lease was up, the territory had to be returned. No argument.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 78):

2. That treaty is not worth the paper it was signed in, given the conditions.

All post-war treaties have an element of win-lose in them - after all, the war was fought for a reason, if you lose, you have to give something up - otherwise what's the point in winning ? The treaty was and is as legitimate as any other international treaty, and if Spain has any respect for the rule of law, they will abide by the treaty.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 78):
4. If you go back to the top, you will see that I stated that any return of Gibraltar has to be conditional of returning Ceuta and Mellila to Morocco. It is high time these colonial relics are terminated.

The two issues are completely independent. Britain is not calling on Spain to return Ceuta and Melilla - this is an issue between Spain and Morocco.
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:34 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 79):
Britian had most of HK on a 99 year lease - that was a treaty too. The lease was up, the territory had to be returned. No argument.

As I said, you could use it for HK or any other colony. Subsitute Hong Kong for South Africa if you want, that was not on a short-term lease.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 79):
Britain is not calling on Spain to return Ceuta and Melilla

Well, that would be highly hypocritical of them considering the amount of colonies they still own, wouldn't it?
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:39 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 80):
Subsitute Hong Kong for South Africa if you want, that was not on a short-term lease.

Only half of South Africa was British colonies - the other half was actually invaded and taken over from other colonisers (the Boers), and the whole thing was then unified. SA ceased to be a colony in 1910 and became a self-governing dominion.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 80):
Well, that would be highly hypocritical of them considering the amount of colonies they still own, wouldn't it?

What colonies ? They have Overseas Territories, all of which are firmly (implacably) in favour of staying British e.g. the Falklands, the Cayman Islands, Turks and Caicos, BVI, Gibraltar, St Helena, Tristan da Cunha, Pitcairn. No Mau-Maus in any of them.
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:59 am



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 81):
the Falklands, the Cayman Islands, Turks and Caicos, BVI, Gibraltar, St Helena, Tristan da Cunha, Pitcairn.

Don't forget Northern Ireland on your list.  Smile

Whether most people in Gibraltar want to remain British or not is besides the point, the question here is to correct a grave historical mistake, a mistake that would in no way be allowed with the way decolonization and peace treaties work. If you did a referendum in Hong Kong in 1997 most people would have wanted to remain British, if you do a referendum in Tibet in 20 years most people will want to be Chinese, ethnical policies put into place several years ago are no excuse to maintain the status quo.

The only reason England wants to cling on to Gibraltar is to feed their own self-inflated sense of importance - they like to believe they are still important in a world in which they are largely irrelevant and if it takes holding a military base in the access to a sea they have no legitimate claim to that can be essentially shut down by a couple of well-positioned sunken ships then so be it. They will even stage ridiculous amphibious invasions of marinas in Southern Spain as a show of force if necessary.
 
User avatar
Asturias
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:43 am



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 59):
whatever you "arguments", it is clear to me that Gibraltar is NOT to be part of Spain against the will of its people

Are you incapable of comprehending the written word? There is now way I am going to indulge your twisted mind by dignify your 'opinions' on this matter with a reply.

Everything that has to be said, has been said before, and in this thread Pyrex has graciously and patiently explained the reality of the situation with far more respect than you've earned with your thickness.

How about you just stay on topic? You think you can do that?

asturias
 
User avatar
Asturias
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:00 am

I will interpret it as positive news for independent Kosovo, that the PSOE won the elections in Spain. While the odds are still against a rapid recognition of Kosovo, the PSOE is far more likely to recognize its independence in the near-ish future than the PP.

I'll predict then that Spain will recognize Kosovo within two years (if it will be done at all), now that PSOE maintains control. It wouldn't have been the next decade had the PP won.

So, I guess one can interpret that as good news for independent Kosovo.  Smile

asturias
 
iliribdl
Topic Author
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:34 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:23 am

Yeah, congrats on the elections. Everything went well I saw.

I'm glad you see it as good news Asturias.  Smile


(I still say it will be this year, lol)
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:56 am



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 69):
and build a naval base there to control shipping that passes in the channel, how about that?

-
France has no claims for "Les Isles Normands" in spite of them having been part of the Normandy and being situated right there. That the islands came under the British Crown (not part of Great Britain) was the result of a historical compromise.
-

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 74):
Good news IMO, meaning that Russia will recognize if Serbia does, which in turn tells you that they're not recognizing because it "broke" the laws but because it is Serbia's stand at the moment. If they change it, so will Russia. Very good news indeed.

It means that their recognition is not to come very shortly. Russia in the longer term, when being interested in a useful precedent for its OWN political aims, may pressure Serbia into recognition of Kosovo, possibly in exchange for something from Russia. Russia may be interested to launch independence of those split-away republics which formerly were part of Georgia before Georgia becomes a NATO-member.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6327
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:35 am



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 22):
I don't think it will be smart for Spain to remain as the only country in the EU not to recognize Kosovo. You know that better than me. They would lose all credibility in the EU and around the world.

You honestly believe Spain's international credibility depends on recoginition of "independent" Kosovo?  Confused

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 22):
it would mean that there is unity in the European Union

Simply becuase, there is no unity. Why bother pretending?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 27):
As for Spain, are you kidding us? Are we to believe that this refusal actually has the tiniest bit to do with the Balkans and not with the basque and catalonian separatists?

Of course Spain's refusal has a lot to do with Basque/Catalonia (as does Slovakia's/Romania's refusal with Hungarian minority or Cypriot with its Turkish occupied north) because only cheerleaders of the "infallible" EU are naive enough to believe this "independent yet non-viable Kosovo" will be a one-off case, not a precedent.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 40):
And to describe those who DID recognize Kosovo as stupid is unacceptable.

That's exactly what it is and frankly I don't give flying f*ck whether you deem it "acceptable" or not.
BTW, I said it was stupid of the EU to foster Albanian nationalism and in fact the idea of Great Albania while (correctly) telling everyone for decade or more that a decade that the Serbian naionalism was a bad thing.
Talk about double standards.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 34):

Lastly there are some voices criticizing these decisions by the diplomats and they complain Spain has lost international credibility and didn't show enough consideration to grand-European decisions.

Yeah, those "voices" from the corridors of Brussels... they will always b*tch and moan whenever someone dares to stay its own course. I mean the absurdity of it all: the EU agrees that it there is disagreeement on Kosovo and leaves the issue of recognition up to individual member states and the moment someone exercises the freedom not to recognize you hear those "voices". Where's Jacques Dhimmi Chirac when you need him? He'd probably tell you Spaniards just wasted another opportunity to shut up
Frankly, Spain has more credibility and honesty on the Kosovo issue than the "Munich Four" and the rest of the EU does.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:47 am



Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 87):
it was stupid of the EU to foster Albanian nationalism and in fact the idea of Great Albania

Albanian nationalism ? One of the ideas about the independence of Kosovo is NOT to have an integration of the Kosovo into Albania, at least not in the short and medium term. To have Kosovo as separate country is NOT fostering the idea of a Great Albania. And even a "merged" Albania--Kosovo would neither be so "Great" nor so Big after all. And to say it again, the EU left the decision about a recognition to its members.
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:27 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 86):


Quoting Pyrex (Reply 69):
and build a naval base there to control shipping that passes in the channel, how about that?

-
France has no claims for "Les Isles Normands" in spite of them having been part of the Normandy and being situated right there. That the islands came under the British Crown (not part of Great Britain) was the result of a historical compromise.

I didn't talk about France and the "Isles Normandes", I talked about Portugal or any other nation that does not have a legitimate claim on the Channel being able to control it.

Honestly, you have no idea how much it costs me to stand here and defend Spain's territorial claim to anything but they are absolutely right about Gibraltar (although they do need more flexibility regarding Ceuta and Mellila).
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:49 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 89):
about Gibraltar

they have absolutely no right for Gibraltar as long as the Gibraltar population does not want to become Spanish. The realistic thing for them is to remain a self-governing autonomous colony of Great Britain, as any change, due to the Utrecht Treaty, would endanger their status.
 
ALexeu
Posts: 1447
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:01 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:24 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 82):

Gibraltar would loose it's purpouse if Britons return it to Spain. There would be no reason for Gibraltar to exist (e.g. tax heavens for NPO, or making it another territory etc.)
But I think that Gibraltar should either join the Schengen or Common travel area. It is dumb that you need passport to travel to Gibralta, from both Spain and UK.
I would love to visit GIB, because it's unique status in Europe.

couldn't resist...

 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:44 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 91):
love to visit GIB

been there once. A very nice place indeed, particularily the apes !  Wink  yes   yes 
 
iliribdl
Topic Author
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:34 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:00 pm

Swedish FM: Kosovo may become EU member
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-03/10/content_7751968.htm

PRISTINA, March 9 (Xinhua) -- Sweden's Foreign Minister Carl Bildt said Sunday that Kosovo may become a European Union member even thought it would not be a member of the United Nations.

Bildt based his statement in the Switzerland example, saying "it negotiated the EU membership before becoming a UN member state."

Kosovo, which unilaterally declared independence from Serbia in February, can not become a UN member state in the near future because of the strong opposition from Serbia and its ally Russia.

At the end of his two day visit in Pristina, Bildt was sure there will not be recognition of Kosovo independence not only from Russia but from some other countries. "I don't expect China to recognize, either," said the chief of Sweden's diplomacy.

He said that the EU foreign ministers will discuss on Monday in Brussels the Kosovo and regional situation in the Western Balkans.

Bildt is the first foreign minister to visit Pristina since ethnic Albanian-majority Kosovo unilaterally proclaimed independence from Serbia on Feb. 17.

He described the current situation on the ground as complicated. At the time of his departure from Kosovo some twenty Serbs protested at Merdare crossing point between Kosovo and Serbia.

Kosovo Prime Minister Hashim Thaci unveiled there Sunday morning a table citing "the Republic of Kosovo" in Albanian, Serbian and English. Angry Serbs protest ended peacefully.
 
User avatar
Asturias
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:49 pm



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 93):
Bildt based his statement in the Switzerland example, saying "it negotiated the EU membership before becoming a UN member state."

Switzerland is an EU member? Maybe somebody should tell Mr. Bildt... Big grin

asturias
 
iliribdl
Topic Author
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:34 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:22 pm

I think he meant that they negotiated (and as we know they did apply in 1992, and the talks are still open to this day), rather than mean that Switzerland is in the EU.

It sounds differently from reading the article, but I'm sure he knows that they're not in the union. lol
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:42 pm



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 95):
that Switzerland is in the EU.

while he referred to the endless negotiations to achieve the Bilateral Treaties with the E.U. and membership of the Schengen and Dublin Treaties. While this Bilateral business is immensely complicated, it for Switzerland brought the advantage now to partake in most features of relevance of the E.U., without actually being a member of the organisation. The trouble for the Kosovo, in regard to the EU is that a single EU member like Greece can block any useful accord.
 
iliribdl
Topic Author
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:34 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:48 pm

Its for the good of Greece to accept all the Balkan countries in the EU. (not now of course, but in the future, when the economy is up to the standards)

But I know what you meant.  Smile
 
ALexeu
Posts: 1447
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:01 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:38 pm



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 97):
Its for the good of Greece to accept all the Balkan countries in the EU. (not now of course, but in the future, when the economy is up to the standards)

But I know what you meant.

And if Serbia becomes EU member before Kosovo ?  bitelip 

Don't get me wrong, I am nationalist blind, which means that I am looking forward to better relations beatween Serbs and Albanians (not in a political way). I would love to Pristina and Prizren one day and not to be afraid to say that I am Serbian. Same for the Albanians in Belgrade.

Cheers
 
iliribdl
Topic Author
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:34 am

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:41 pm

Best thing, and I really hope it happens this way, is for both Serbia and Kosovo to enter on the same date, as two countries who have joined together, forgave each other, and are working for the future of their countries.

We, the people on the Balkans, are much closer to each other than we think. For hundreds of years, we though otherwise, I think its time to change that and get together. (big love fest) haha

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aaron747, flipdewaf, Flyingdevil737, L0VE2FLY and 30 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos