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iliribdl
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Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:29 pm

I think this deserved its own thread, being that Slovenia was the first country to leave ex-Yugoslavia and it is the first one from ex-Yugoslavia to recognize Kosovo, the last one to exit ex-Yugoslavia. This will IMO change things for the better and we'll start to get the recognitions from our neighbors in the coming weeks. Croatia will on March 15th, Macedonia shortly as well, then Montenegro. Bulgaria and Greece will follow.

Here are the countries so far that have recognized the independence of Kosovo (I'll put the EU nations first) : Slovenia, Netherlands, Sweden, Ireland, Austria, Poland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark, Italy, Estonia, Latvia, Germany, United Kingdom, France. Then its Afghanistan, Costa Rica, Albania, Turkey, United States, Australia, Senegal, Malaysia, Peru, Switzerland, and today it was Iceland. (didn't include Taiwan, since its partially recognized from others)


And here is the article from.


FIRST EX-YUGOSLAV STATE
Slovenia Recognises Kosovo, Croatia Next
http://www.javno.com/en/world/clanak.php?id=129470

After a day-long discussion at the Slovene parliament, Slovene MPs raised their hands in recognition of Kosovo some half an hour ago. The recognition of the former Serbian province was endorsed by 57 MPs, while only four MPs voted against, Slovenia’s Delo daily reported.

Interestingly enough, MPs of the SNS headed by Zmago Jelincic, known in Croatia for his controversial stands in which he laid claim to Croatian terriroty, were against Kosovo’s recognition. Jelincic explained why he was against Slovenia recognising Kosovo by stating that “Slovenia had stabbed Serbia in the back” with this move.

- This is one of Slovenia’s biggest mistakes. We will have no use of the recognition, only economic losses – Jelincic said.

At the same time, Slovene Foreign Minister Dimitrij Rupel today in parliament rationalised that Slovenia’s recognition of Kosovo had nothing to do with alleged American pressures.

MORE TO COME SOON
 
iliribdl
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:53 pm

Not even one comment?

 Sad
 
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bwest
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:59 pm

Hm, I think Slovenia was under some international pressure from France, Germany and the UK, seeing they currently hold the EU presidency. It's also remarkable that the EU member stated cannot formulate a united view on the independence. (Greek)Cyprus, EU member, declared it would never recognise Kosovo's independence, while many other EU members have.
 
Klaus
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:08 pm



Quoting Bwest (Reply 2):
Hm, I think Slovenia was under some international pressure from France, Germany and the UK, seeing they currently hold the EU presidency.

Unlikely. There have certainly been discussions about the topic recently, but it's still a sovereign national decision.

Quoting Bwest (Reply 2):
It's also remarkable that the EU member stated cannot formulate a united view on the independence.

How so? Foreign policies are increasingly coordinated, but contentious issues have usually not seen unanimity thus far.

Quoting Bwest (Reply 2):
(Greek)Cyprus, EU member, declared it would never recognise Kosovo's independence, while many other EU members have.

This might change. The cypriot PM who sabotaged progress with regard to the turkish part of the island has just been voted out.
 
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bwest
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:12 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 3):
How so? Foreign policies are increasingly coordinated, but contentious issues have usually not seen unanimity thus far.

Exactly... if this EU ever aspires to become anything more than a purely economical union, a joint foreign affair policy seems to be a minimum, but I don't see that happening anytime soon... national interests still have priority, and will stay like that for many years to come
 
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OA260
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:14 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 3):
This might change. The cypriot PM who sabotaged progress with regard to the turkish part of the island has just been voted out

Hahaha I love this idea of just because the Cypriot leader has changed the foreign policy will !!! Do you actually know what his policies are??? The only thing that will change is Greek/Turkish relations. He is good for Greeks and Turks in Cyprus. If there is ever to be a settlement it will be this guy that does it but political views outside of the Cyprus/Turkey issue will remain the same.
 
Klaus
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:16 pm



Quoting Bwest (Reply 4):
Exactly... if this EU ever aspires to become anything more than a purely economical union, a joint foreign affair policy seems to be a minimum, but I don't see that happening anytime soon... national interests still have priority, and will stay like that for many years to come

Not the same thing. Increasing coordination is still possible even if member nations can deviate on matters they consider absolutely crucial. The defintion of what "crucial" means would be a moving target, but that does not mean that the coordination of a european position on most matters could not have a significant impact.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:24 pm

don't hold your breath waiting for Belgium to recognise Kosovo - Belgrade might retaliate by recognising Flemish independence  duck 
 
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bwest
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:32 pm

Belgium is in the progress of recognising Kosovo. The King already signed the decree recognising the new state. Now the government needs to send a letter to Kosovo notifying them of this decision. As a result, Serbia already recalled their ambassador from Belgium.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:38 pm



Quoting Bwest (Reply 8):
Belgium is in the progress of recognising Kosovo

please dont ruin my perfectly good conspiracy theory by bringing facts into it - I share Homer Simpsons disdain for facts "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! "
 
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Asturias
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:46 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 3):
This might change. The cypriot PM who sabotaged progress with regard to the turkish part of the island has just been voted out.

I suspect the reason is the same as in Spain, there is no way in the foreseeable political climate that we'll support separatist movements.

I can understand why Cyprus isn't going to support that, at least now. You don't have to ask about Spain. Even the socialists say no and they are very politically liberal.

asturias
 
iliribdl
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:44 pm



Quoting Bwest (Reply 2):
Hm, I think Slovenia was under some international pressure from France, Germany and the UK, seeing they currently hold the EU presidency.

I don't think Slovenia was under pressure. You have to remember that in the 80s Slovenia was pushing for Kosovo to be recognized as a state within Yugoslavia, just like Montenegro was for example. Things didn't work out, and Slovenia left. Fast forward to the 90s, wars, then now, Kosovo declaring its independence. Being in the EU has nothing to do with their decision. Their ambassador to Kosovo, today met the president and prime minister and told them that Slovenia had actually looked at Kosovo as an independent country from 1989.

I'm just glad though, and thankful to them for recognizing it. My father, uncle and grandmother all lived at one time in Slovenia, in the 1970s.

Quoting Bwest (Reply 8):
Belgium is in the progress of recognising Kosovo. The King already signed the decree recognising the new state. Now the government needs to send a letter to Kosovo notifying them of this decision. As a result, Serbia already recalled their ambassador from Belgium.

Correct, they did recognize it. (I think it was on 24th of February)

Quoting Asturias (Reply 10):
I suspect the reason is the same as in Spain, there is no way in the foreseeable political climate that we'll support separatist movements.

I can understand why Cyprus isn't going to support that, at least now. You don't have to ask about Spain. Even the socialists say no and they are very politically liberal.

Spain will recognize us in the summer, once the new govt is formed after the elections are over. Actually to tell you the truth, the Spanish govt had asked our govt to wait on the declaration until June at least, since they wouldn't be able to recognize before that.

Cyprus, Romania, Greece and Slovakia, I suppose will be the last Euro nations to recognize us, but it will happen. I don't see them standing out alone after every one else has agreed on it. Remember that the new "police" EULEX has been approved by all 27 members of the EU, including Cyprus and Greece, so with that they actually kind of recognized the independence.


And in the end, I'll say in a year probably, Serbia will recognize as well. They will have to, if they want to help the Serbian minority in Kosovo, and help themselves with the international community. Nationalism will not help them go forward with anything anymore.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:56 pm

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 11):
Nationalism will not help them go forward with anything anymore.

Now that the EU in its stupidity fostered Albanian nationalism and sepratism and "Great Albania" got its way at the expense of Serbia you will preach us about the evils of nationalism? Talk about utter hypocrisy...

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 11):
Remember that the new "police" EULEX has been approved by all 27 members of the EU, including Cyprus and Greece, so with that they actually kind of recognized the independence.

Yeah right. Sure. Whatever. Eulex and formal recognition and diplomatic ties are two completely different and moreless irrelevant things.

[Edited 2008-03-06 13:01:07]
 
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Asturias
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:58 pm



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 11):
Spain will recognize us in the summer, once the new govt is formed after the elections are over. Actually to tell you the truth, the Spanish govt had asked our govt to wait on the declaration until June at least, since they wouldn't be able to recognize before that.

So you say, however I think Kosovo is a monumental diplomatic failure and I think it will be years, rather than months before the Spanish government will re-examine it's position. Time will tell.

When or indeed *if* Spain will re-evaluate her position then I suspect the decision will depend a lot on how monumentally huge this diplomatic failure will be. Today the Spanish position is that an independent Kosovo is a breach of the UN charter.

This is politics, of course, and nothing is set in stone. I just think you're a few notches more optimistic than you have reason to be.

asturias
 
iliribdl
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:13 pm



Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 12):
Now that the EU in its stupidity fostered Albanian nationalism and sepratism and "Great Albania" got its way at the expense of Serbia you will preach us about the evils of nationalism? Talk about utter hypocrisy...

Talk about Albanian nationalism all you want, and I admit that without it, there would be no Albanians in the Balkans at the moment, but remember my Czech friend that it was Serbian nationalism that destroyed Yugoslavia, drove off Slovenia, Macedonia, Montenegro, started wars with Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo. Remember that it was Serbian nationalism that destroyed the foreign embassies in Belgrade last month. Its easy to be blinded and just talk like you were born today.  Wink

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 12):

Yeah right. Sure. Whatever. Eulex and formal recognition and diplomatic ties are two completely different and moreless irrelevant things.

Nope, without EULEX being approved, Kosovo would have pushed the declaration, it was the approval of an EU "police" (called EULEX of course) that made it possible for the fast declaration in February. Every EU country knew that, and every EU country, 27 all, approved the process. (formally recognizing the current status of Kosovo and acknowledging that the new reality must be brought into action)

Quoting Asturias (Reply 13):
So you say, however I think Kosovo is a monumental diplomatic failure and I think it will be years, rather than months before the Spanish government will re-examine it's position. Time will tell.

When or indeed *if* Spain will re-evaluate her position then I suspect the decision will depend a lot on how monumentally huge this diplomatic failure will be. Today the Spanish position is that an independent Kosovo is a breach of the UN charter.

This is politics, of course, and nothing is set in stone. I just think you're a few notches more optimistic than you have reason to be.

asturias

Spain has already evaluated the situation. They are our good friends and have always helped us. We have very good ties. But the current govt, for them not to lose any votes in the elections, they're holding off the recognition. Their govt told our govt the exact thing. So unless your govt lied, the recognition will come in the summer, right after the new govt is formed (no matter who wins the elections). Same thing why we waited for the elections in Serbia and didn't declare any earlier. We were asked by the EU to wait until the new govt was formed and then declare so that elections wouldn't be decided by the changes in Kosovo.

Its not a matter of *if* but a matter of when, and our govt already knows when it'll happen.


In other news, Finland is expected to recognize tomorrow the 7th of March, Lithuania on the 10th and Croatia on the 15th.

That would bring the number to 17 EU countries. 10 more to go.  Wink
 
ALexeu
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:28 pm



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 14):
That would bring the number to 17 EU countries. 10 more to go.

Congradulation !

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 11):
And in the end, I'll say in a year probably, Serbia will recognize as well. They will have to, if they want to help the Serbian minority in Kosovo, and help themselves

I don't think so. There is already de facto Serbian part of Kosovo (about 25% of Kosovo is under Serbian control). Serbia will either not recognize Kosovo, or reannex Serbian populated areas to Serbia. The problems are exclaves (enclaves), but even if they recognize Kosovo, those areas will have to remain somehow enclaves (there will be presence of military etc.).

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 14):
but remember my Czech friend that it was Serbian nationalism that destroyed Yugoslavia, drove off Slovenia, Macedonia, Montenegro, started wars with Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo.

There was Serbian nationalism, but we can't forget Albanian, Croatian and Bosniak nationalism aswell. Nobody can forget hundred thousands Serbs fleding from Croatia to Serbia.
There are still a lot of refugees from Kosovo, living in Serbia.

Just to add: South Ossetia complained to UN, because there is no reason to accept Kosovo's independnece and not to accept S.O. independence.... here we go !
 
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Asturias
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:32 pm



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 14):
Spain has already evaluated the situation. They are our good friends and have always helped us. We have very good ties. But the current govt, for them not to lose any votes in the elections, they're holding off the recognition. Their govt told our govt the exact thing. So unless your govt lied, the recognition will come in the summer, right after the new govt is formed (no matter who wins the elections). Same thing why we waited for the elections in Serbia and didn't declare any earlier. We were asked by the EU to wait until the new govt was formed and then declare so that elections wouldn't be decided by the changes in Kosovo.

What the hell are you talking about?  Confused

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/feb2008/koso-f27.shtml

Fair use excerpt:

The Spanish government has refused to recognise an independent Kosovo. Foreign Minister Miguel Angel Moratinos told the press that most of the countries declining to do so were close to Kosovo geographically and had the best knowledge of the region. Spain, he said, "will not recognise the unilateral act" because it "does not respect international law."

While Moratinos claimed his government's position had "nothing to do with Spain," but was motivated only by concern that Kosovo's independence would "open Pandora's Box in the Balkans," his remarks were clearly aimed at countering already strident demands for separatism, or at the very least greater autonomy, in the Basque region and Catalonia. The ruling Spanish Socialist Workers Party (PSOE) and the main opposition party, the right-wing Popular Party (PP), take the same position on Kosovo.


Note that *both* PP and PSOE agree, that Kosovo should not be recognized - you'll only find support for that in the fringe nationalist parties.

It also makes *no* sense that "our government" talked to "your government" and promised that Spain would support Kosovan independence after the elections "no matter who wins". First of all, the government can't speak on policy of the next government *before* an election! Second, the two largest parties, PSOE and PP represent over 70% of the Spanish congress and they agree Spain should not recognize Kosovan independence, then I think it is the other way around.. i.e. no matter who wins they will *not* recognize Kosovo after the election.

So I ask again: What the *hell* are you talking about?

asturias
 
iliribdl
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:22 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 15):
Congradulation !


Hvala.  Smile

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 15):



I don't think so. There is already de facto Serbian part of Kosovo (about 25% of Kosovo is under Serbian control). Serbia will either not recognize Kosovo, or reannex Serbian populated areas to Serbia. The problems are exclaves (enclaves), but even if they recognize Kosovo, those areas will have to remain somehow enclaves (there will be presence of military etc.).


There is no de facto Serbian part of Kosovo. Kosovo is called the republic of Kosovo now, has its own border, govt, etc and has been recognized by 27 countries world wide in just two weeks.

What I meant in my previous post was that if Serbia wants to help the Serbs in Kosovo (which is not the case, since they actually don't care about the Serbs), they would need to recognize Kosovo, and in the process would be allowed to give donations, etc to the Serbian minority. (which again, Serbia won't do since it has its own problems within Serbia)

And lastly, there will never be Serbian military presence (from the republic of Serbia) in Kosovo. Maybe as visitors, but not officials. On the other hand, there will be Serbians in the Kosovo police and army. Totally different thing.

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 15):


There was Serbian nationalism, but we can't forget Albanian, Croatian and Bosniak nationalism aswell. Nobody can forget hundred thousands Serbs fleding from Croatia to Serbia.
There are still a lot of refugees from Kosovo, living in Serbia.


Yep, correct there was nationalism on all parts, but without Serbia trying to control ex-Yugoslavia and taking the autonomy from Kosovo, there wouldn't have been wars, and ex-Yugoslavia would still exist to this day. Probably would have been one of the major countries in the EU. (right after germany)

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 15):


Just to add: South Ossetia complained to UN, because there is no reason to accept Kosovo's independnece and not to accept S.O. independence.... here we go !

Here we go nothing. There have been a lot of complaints, starting from Serbia, then Russia, then Cuba, etc. It won't change the new reality, which has Kosovo as the newest country in Europe.
 
iliribdl
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:27 pm



Quoting Asturias (Reply 16):
What the hell are you talking about? Confused

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/feb2008/koso-f27.shtml

Fair use excerpt:

The Spanish government has refused to recognise an independent Kosovo. Foreign Minister Miguel Angel Moratinos told the press that most of the countries declining to do so were close to Kosovo geographically and had the best knowledge of the region. Spain, he said, "will not recognise the unilateral act" because it "does not respect international law."

While Moratinos claimed his government's position had "nothing to do with Spain," but was motivated only by concern that Kosovo's independence would "open Pandora's Box in the Balkans," his remarks were clearly aimed at countering already strident demands for separatism, or at the very least greater autonomy, in the Basque region and Catalonia. The ruling Spanish Socialist Workers Party (PSOE) and the main opposition party, the right-wing Popular Party (PP), take the same position on Kosovo.

Note that *both* PP and PSOE agree, that Kosovo should not be recognized - you'll only find support for that in the fringe nationalist parties.

It also makes *no* sense that "our government" talked to "your government" and promised that Spain would support Kosovan independence after the elections "no matter who wins". First of all, the government can't speak on policy of the next government *before* an election! Second, the two largest parties, PSOE and PP represent over 70% of the Spanish congress and they agree Spain should not recognize Kosovan independence, then I think it is the other way around.. i.e. no matter who wins they will *not* recognize Kosovo after the election.

So I ask again: What the *hell* are you talking about?

asturias

First of all I don't see a reason why you need to include "hell" in your post. (I'm confused)


Second, our govt officials met your govt officials (Moratinos included) and were promised that they will too recognize the new republic of Kosovo. Only "when" was the matter in question. Again asturias, I expect them to do it in the summer, and if not then, trust me, they will be one of the last EU nations to do it.

Fast forward to February 17th 2009, Kosovo will celebrate its first year, while all the EU nations have already recognized it, (including the non-EU ones, like Macedonia, Montenegro, etc)

Its in Spains interest to act like they're against the independence, because of Catalonians and Basquess. (but in reality they're not)
 
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Asturias
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:18 pm



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 18):
First of all I don't see a reason why you need to include "hell" in your post. (I'm confused)

It was an exclamation on my disbelief and frustration, because you are in no unclear manner *telling* me how politics work in Spain after I explained to you the basic fundamentals. e.g. how a sitting government cannot make policy decisions for the next government. So here it was just an exclaimation to underline my sentiment.

You may have your beliefs, you may trust what you hear from your government, you may have high hopes. All fine by me, but when you start telling me how things are in my country, that crosses the line from being politely argumentative to being obtuse at best and arrogant at worst.

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 18):
Second, our govt officials met your govt officials (Moratinos included) and were promised that they will too recognize the new republic of Kosovo. Only "when" was the matter in question. Again asturias, I expect them to do it in the summer, and if not then, trust me, they will be one of the last EU nations to do it.

I have no idea what 'my government' said to 'your government' in private, and if you wish to think it was all hugs and kisses, you're welcome to. Just so you understand, though: They could have promised you the moon, but they cannot promise what the next administration will decide.

What you are proposing is unthinkable, that foreign policy is decided in advance of elections. Not only that, but the fact is both major parties in Spain are against recognizing Kosovo. Granted, in theory they might change their mind sometime, but in this election that will be their expressed policy, thus the mandate given to them by the people.

That's why I don't particularly expect Spain to recognize Kosovo in the near future. It would be bad policy, politically.

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 18):
Its in Spains interest to act like they're against the independence, because of Catalonians and Basquess. (but in reality they're not)

I think in general, the Spanish people would support independent Kosovo without much thought to the matter. However PSOE and PP are the power-blocks holding the country together. As I wrote before, you'll find sympathy for Kosovo within the fringe nationalist parties in Spain, because it suits their agenda, but not a shred of sympathy within the ranks of PSOE or PP. It goes against their very nature. That's a fact.

asturias
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:24 am



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 18):
Its in Spains interest to act like they're against the independence, because of Catalonians and Basquess. (but in reality they're not)

In reality everyone in the EU and USA wishes Kosovo didnt exist because its a headache for everyone and now we have to breast feed you for 40 years (after we just breastfed you for 10) and take care of the zoo of illegal activities that goes on there and waste more money with no return on investment in the near future...hell we cant even get cheap labor out of you like out of Poland, Romania or Slovakia..  rotfl 
 
iliribdl
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:01 am



Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 20):
In reality everyone in the EU and USA wishes Kosovo didnt exist because its a headache for everyone and now we have to breast feed you for 40 years (after we just breastfed you for 10) and take care of the zoo of illegal activities that goes on there and waste more money with no return on investment in the near future...hell we cant even get cheap labor out of you like out of Poland, Romania or Slovakia..

I see you're back to your racist ways.


In reality the EU and USA and your home country love that Kosovo exist and that finally it is independent after all the suffering it went through. (centuries of occupation from ottomans to the serbians)


You can breast feed your children if you want (if you have any, or plan to have some), Kosovo on the other hand will take donations from any country that wants to help us, and to tell you the truth we're not the only one that needs help in the Balkans. Romania, Albania, Macedonia and Kosovo each need investments and help from the EU.


You can't get cheap labor since we don't work for cheap.  Wink (in other words we're not as cheap as you)





(ok that was a joke, but you'll see investments happen in the coming months and some of the big companies in Europe will open factories / businesses in Kosovo, since its cheaper for them)
 
iliribdl
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:21 am



Quoting Asturias (Reply 19):


It was an exclamation on my disbelief and frustration, because you are in no unclear manner *telling* me how politics work in Spain after I explained to you the basic fundamentals. e.g. how a sitting government cannot make policy decisions for the next government. So here it was just an exclaimation to underline my sentiment.

You may have your beliefs, you may trust what you hear from your government, you may have high hopes. All fine by me, but when you start telling me how things are in my country, that crosses the line from being politely argumentative to being obtuse at best and arrogant at worst.

This my friend has nothing to do with govt decision makings. Recognizing Kosovo as independent is not a game and its not like if one party got the govt, they would, and if another one did they wouldn't. Spain as a country has clearly supported Kosovo ever since bombing Serbia in 1999. If you didn't know that, then you clearly don't know how things are in your country.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 19):


I have no idea what 'my government' said to 'your government' in private, and if you wish to think it was all hugs and kisses, you're welcome to. Just so you understand, though: They could have promised you the moon, but they cannot promise what the next administration will decide.

What you are proposing is unthinkable, that foreign policy is decided in advance of elections. Not only that, but the fact is both major parties in Spain are against recognizing Kosovo. Granted, in theory they might change their mind sometime, but in this election that will be their expressed policy, thus the mandate given to them by the people.

That's why I don't particularly expect Spain to recognize Kosovo in the near future. It would be bad policy, politically.


I know you have no idea what your govt said since you have shown it here. Thats why I told you. They met late in December 2007, with the foreign minister and other officials in Madrid, and let them know that they will declare the independence. Spain on their part asked to postpone it at least until the summer. Our govt on the other hand said they couldn't wait and actually declared on February this year. But the recognition will come within the year.

I don't think it will be smart for Spain to remain as the only country in the EU not to recognize Kosovo. You know that better than me. They would lose all credibility in the EU and around the world. Both the US and other EU member nations have told Spain that Kosovo does not set a precedent and told them that they would not support the separatists within Spain.


And last it would not be bad policy to recognize Kosovo. Not after 26 EU countries have done it, as well as many other nations. It would actually be very good policy since it would mean that there is unity in the European Union.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 19):


I think in general, the Spanish people would support independent Kosovo without much thought to the matter. However PSOE and PP are the power-blocks holding the country together. As I wrote before, you'll find sympathy for Kosovo within the fringe nationalist parties in Spain, because it suits their agenda, but not a shred of sympathy within the ranks of PSOE or PP. It goes against their very nature. That's a fact.

asturias

Correct, the Spanish people do support the independence, and the govt will show that as well within this year. That is a fact. We'll be here both me and you, and I'll specifically start a thread when Spain recognizes. (thanking them and letting you know that they actually did)



Iliri  Smile
 
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Asturias
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:15 am

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 22):
This my friend has nothing to do with govt decision makings. Recognizing Kosovo as independent is not a game and its not like if one party got the govt, they would, and if another one did they wouldn't. Spain as a country has clearly supported Kosovo ever since bombing Serbia in 1999. If you didn't know that, then you clearly don't know how things are in your country.

Indeed this is not a game, because if it were your country would have recognitions of it's independence from all over the world. However, back in the real world the independence of Kosovo has met with less enthusiasm than Tom Cruise's cult among the nations of the world.

It appears not even the EU can stand united behind this action largely set in motion by themselves. That's why I call this a political blunder. Several EU countries are for various reasons not ready to recognize Kosovo as an independent nation. They will not be forced to do so, and this political mess is enshrined by the fact that the EU political machine pushed this, without actually getting complete EU support first!

I just hope it will be soon forgotten and not become a major issue with time. I'm not even sure what Kosovo is, what it has to offer or by what rights it refers to itself as a country.

Spain has indeed supported the UN operations and will continue to do so, as much has been declared. That doesn't mean Spain will recognize Kosovo as independent any time soon. Spain contributed military to the area before and for all intents and purposes nothing has changed to prevent Spain from continuing that support. I know full well of the actions of Spain in the Kosovo area and as before I don't appreciate your snotty arrogant remarks and assumptions.

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 22):
I know you have no idea what your govt said since you have shown it here. Thats why I told you. They met late in December 2007, with the foreign minister and other officials in Madrid, and let them know that they will declare the independence. Spain on their part asked to postpone it at least until the summer. Our govt on the other hand said they couldn't wait and actually declared on February this year. But the recognition will come within the year.

Neither I nor you know what went on between my government and those in Kosovo, but that's not a branch I'm handing you. You can't know any more than I, so when you claim you do, you lie. That hardly helps your argument.

Furthermore, you fail to understand that even if all you said were true, then it would all still be irrelevant because a new government (or possibly more or less the same) will take over before the summer in Spain. Neither party that can possibly take over the government supports Kosovo, both have explicitly declared so and enter the elections holding that to be true. Make of that what you will, politicians do change their minds. However, again, I'm not handing you a branch. In this case recognizing an independent Kosovo would be detrimental and in fact completely against the interests of *either* party and certainly against the interest of united Spain.

While neither of us can know what was said in private, the minister for foreign affairs in Spain Mr. Moratinos was travelling Serbia where he commented on Spain's position on this matter. Among the things he said on Kosovo was:

"[Spain] will not recognise the unilateral act" because it "does not respect international law."

and

"[Kosovo's independence would] open Pandora's Box in the Balkans,"

Moratinos said that legally, secession of Kosovo required either an agreement between the parties or a United Nations Security Council resolution, noting that the declaration of independence ran counter to the United Nations Charter.

You are saying that Moratinos then met the Kosovo leaders in private and promised them Spain would recognize Kosovan independence before year's end - no matter what government would take over after the elections??

That's some story and hard to believe, because it flies right in the face of all facts and hinges only upon your word against.. well reality.

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 22):
I don't think it will be smart for Spain to remain as the only country in the EU not to recognize Kosovo. You know that better than me. They would lose all credibility in the EU and around the world. Both the US and other EU member nations have told Spain that Kosovo does not set a precedent and told them that they would not support the separatists within Spain.

What I know better than you are the politics of my country. That I feel certain about. That being said, Spain is not the only EU country that has shown severe reservations about recognizing independent Kosovo. In fact, Spain has been in on the whole process since the very beginning, but always against it. Nothing personal, but the creation of Kosovo is a bad idea from our standpoint. A very bad idea.

The last time, in 1948, a country was created - by UN no less. With far more authority than Kosovo and with the support of all major powers in the world. In retrospect it was a phenomenally stupid idea to create a country like that. It wasn't even taken from a sovereign country. It even used to be a country a long time ago. It was for a good cause and for people who really deserved their own safe country.

All that didn't matter, so when you say that this is an idea that everyone should just flock behind, I'm not buying it. The EU has no experience in nation-building and the little experience we have from making countries, it has never been a good idea. At best it has in rare cases balanced itself out to become sort of neutral.

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 22):
And last it would not be bad policy to recognize Kosovo. Not after 26 EU countries have done it, as well as many other nations. It would actually be very good policy since it would mean that there is unity in the European Union.

Twenty-six EU countries have not recognized Kosovo. Even if they did, that would not be any reason for Spain to do the same. I've noticed that the UK doesn't always jump with the rest of the EU, they seem to get away with it. The EU isn't a federation. Every country is sovereign and until there is a united EU foreign policy, you're going to have to regard each EU member state as the independent sovereign nation it is.

Point being, the unity of the EU is where unity is needed or where it is agreed upon. There is currently no demand for a united foreign policy.

As for Spain, recognizing an independent Kosovo is regarded as a bad policy decision - because it is. Had the matter been handled differently, Spain would have been aboard without problems. However, they this was handled, it will be more difficult and forcing our hand probably won't lead to anything positive either.

I don't mean to sound any more arrogant than you have, but the thing is this: Kosovo just isn't that important to anyone and certainly not important enough for Spain to willingly unbalance the Balkans, to have a hand in creating yet another failure of a state nor to stir the delicate balance domestically.

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 22):
Correct, the Spanish people do support the independence, and the govt will show that as well within this year. That is a fact. We'll be here both me and you, and I'll specifically start a thread when Spain recognizes. (thanking them and letting you know that they actually did)

Indeed, as I said the Spanish people support Kosovan independence without much *thought* on the matter, and granted very few will think about it. That's just my people. However those who will stop and consider what consequences such a support might have, they'll think twice. The politicians already know their answer: No recognition of independent Kosovo from Spain in the near future. It just wouldn't be responsible.

Maybe sometime in the future, but sorry, not soon.

asturias

[Edited 2008-03-06 18:20:49]
 
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:25 am

Correct me if I'm wrong but in addition to the worries about the Basque Country and Catalonia, the independence of Kosovo is also worrisome because of Gibraltar. For many years the Spanish government has argued that Gibraltar cannot become an independent state because it has been colonised illegally. It seems that by recognising Kosovo, the Spanish government would in theory have to recognise Gibraltar's independence right to self-determination.
 
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:18 am



Quoting DETA737 (Reply 24):
Correct me if I'm wrong but in addition to the worries about the Basque Country and Catalonia, the independence of Kosovo is also worrisome because of Gibraltar. For many years the Spanish government has argued that Gibraltar cannot become an independent state because it has been colonised illegally. It seems that by recognising Kosovo, the Spanish government would in theory have to recognise Gibraltar's independence right to self-determination.

It is good to know that our neighbors to the west understand our situation  Smile

(maybe not agree, but understand)

asturias
 
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:26 am



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 21):
I see you're back to your racist ways.


In reality the EU and USA and your home country love that Kosovo exist and that finally it is independent after all the suffering it went through. (centuries of occupation from ottomans to the serbians)

No one loves that Kosovo exists, it exists because Slobo was playing naughty, everyone would have loved if Slobo didnt play dictator and the Albanians quit illegally seceeding from a country.

I guarantee you 90% of Americans dont even know what Kosovo is, much less what it is...and 99% could care less. I bet you the DEA is pissed off more than ever though.
 
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:42 am



Quoting Asturias (Reply 23):
It appears not even the EU can stand united behind this action largely set in motion by themselves. That's why I call this a political blunder. Several EU countries are for various reasons not ready to recognize Kosovo as an independent nation. They will not be forced to do so, and this political mess is enshrined by the fact that the EU political machine pushed this, without actually getting complete EU support first!

Some issues cannot wait until the EU has reached unanimity. And the majority believed that this was one of those, as reluctant as they still were.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 23):
I just hope it will be soon forgotten and not become a major issue with time. I'm not even sure what Kosovo is, what it has to offer or by what rights it refers to itself as a country.

When a central state has thoroughly destroyed its own rights to a part of the country and the inhabitants of said part cannot be reasonably forced back under the control of said central government, there are not that many options. Self-determination is a key issue in such a case, unlike in cases where the respective central government is treating its regions decently.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 23):
"[Kosovo's independence would] open Pandora's Box in the Balkans,"

Very funny. That remark is about two decades late by now. Pandora may have a new box on back order, but the old one has been emptied exhaustively already, creating the current situation in the first place.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 23):
Moratinos said that legally, secession of Kosovo required either an agreement between the parties or a United Nations Security Council resolution, noting that the declaration of independence ran counter to the United Nations Charter.

Which is one of the prinicples which are in most urgent need of reform. Sticking to the principle of non-interference even to the point of passively watching mass murder as long as it is an "internal affair" is a mistake. plain and simple. There were pragmatic reasons to make that choice when the UN was founded, but times change. And so must the UN.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 23):
The last time, in 1948, a country was created - by UN no less.

Israel wasn't the last country founded since 1948, and it is obviously and crucially different from Kosovo.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 23):
The EU has no experience in nation-building and the little experience we have from making countries, it has never been a good idea.

Pardon me? The EU has never ceased in nation-building, actually! It's one of our collectively biggest strengths. It's not always nice to look at, but when it's done right the results can be quite convincing.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 23):
Point being, the unity of the EU is where unity is needed or where it is agreed upon. There is currently no demand for a united foreign policy.

Sure there is. It's the supply side that's lacking. Which is inconvenient, but dissent has always existed within the EU; We can handle it.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 23):
I don't mean to sound any more arrogant than you have, but the thing is this: Kosovo just isn't that important to anyone and certainly not important enough for Spain to willingly unbalance the Balkans, to have a hand in creating yet another failure of a state nor to stir the delicate balance domestically.

Again: The Balkans have been "unbalanced" with Milosevic's attacks on the other ethnic groups in the region; The independence of Kosovo is one of the last aftershocks of that. Unfortunate in many ways, but for all practical intents and purposes without a realistic alternative under the circumstances. Without the still rampant great-serbian rethoric from Belgrade it would not have happened. Sure, that rethoric may be aimed mostly to the serbian domestic audience; But chauvinism like that doesn't get any better when it's produced by presumable democrats as a populist way to an election win without deeper convictions.

As for Spain, are you kidding us? Are we to believe that this refusal actually has the tiniest bit to do with the Balkans and not with the basque and catalonian separatists? Or with Gibraltar, as explained above?

Come on!

IliriBDL is certainly overdoing it quite a bit around here. But your presentation here has quite a few credibility holes of its own.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 26):
No one loves that Kosovo exists, it exists because Slobo was playing naughty, everyone would have loved if Slobo didnt play dictator and the Albanians quit illegally seceeding from a country.

Legality unfortunately evaporates when the state whose laws you're talking about turns into a murderous monster itself. Without the rule of law the state cannot claim something to be "illegal". The kosovar nationalists certainly seized their opportunity at that crucial point.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 26):
I guarantee you 90% of Americans dont even know what Kosovo is, much less what it is...and 99% could care less. I bet you the DEA is pissed off more than ever though.

The DEA should be far more concerned about the booming drug production in Afghanistan. Compared to that Kosova is a candle compared to a blazing forest fire.
 
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:43 am

Well Asturias, here is an article talking about the meeting. And of course I wasn't there but when our leaders went back to Kosovo, they held interviews with the media and told them about the Spanish pleas to push the declaration. (in fact Spain was never against the independence, it was only Cyprus for known reasons, but they'll too recognize in the coming months)

Just to let you know, I wasn't arrogant like you claim I was, I just simply debated with you, and never used any foul language. The truth is that we Albanians have always looked at the Spanish as our allies, actually one of the main allies. There were Albanians that helped your people in the Spanish Civil War. Asim Vokshi for example (from Kosovo) was general of the Garibaldi Battalion. Then there's Mehmet Shehu, Petro Marko, etc.



Kosovo Albanians in Madrid Talks
http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/6805/

07 December 2007 Pristina _ Spain will not oppose Kosovo’s independence, a Kosovar Albanian official said on Thursday after talks in Madrid.

“The declaration of Kosovo’s independence does not pose a problem for Spain”, said Skender Hyseni, spokesperson of Kosovar Albanian negotiators on the UN-administered entity’s political status.

Hyseni made his statement on his return from Madrid where Kosovo leaders met Spanish Foreign Minister, Miguel Angel Moratinos.

Kosovo’s negotiating team, headed by President Fatmir Sejdiu, travelled to Spain on Wednesday, as part of its continuing efforts to rally support for Kosovo’s independence.

After eight years of UN administration and two years of failed negotiations over the entity’s long-term status, Kosovo politicians are expected to declare independence unilaterally in the course of the next few months.

Kosovo’s independence is expected to be recognised by the US and most EU countries.

However, Spain has in the past expressed concern about Kosovo taking a unilateral route, not least because it has had to contend with its own Basque separatist movement in the north of the country.

Observers believe Madrid is likely to be among the last of the EU countries to recognize Kosovo’s independence.
 
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:38 am



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 14):
Serbian nationalism that destroyed Yugoslavia

I love the fact you omitted Croat nationalism/terrorism which dated back to the 1960s against Serbs and which played a large role in breaking up Yugo.
Slovenes had their share of breaking up Yugo by leaving the first chance they got. Slovenes would never admit they were part of Yugo, instead stating they were from Slovenija. This attitude goes back to the late 1950s.

Yes "Iliri" your bias shows itself once again by ignoring facts and doing the typical act of demonizing Serbs.
 
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:08 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 27):
Some issues cannot wait until the EU has reached unanimity. And the majority believed that this was one of those, as reluctant as they still were.

Be that as it may, this issue was hardly the most important one to "solve" at this moment in time by the EU. There are plenty of others, which have been waiting far longer and would have appreciated some EU support. Cyprus for instance, but nothing was done there.

In my mind, Kosovo is considerably lower on the list than Cyprus. Besides, for the EU to start nation-building outside its own boundaries unilaterally, yet not unanimously is an idea I am not very excited about.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 27):
When a central state has thoroughly destroyed its own rights to a part of the country and the inhabitants of said part cannot be reasonably forced back under the control of said central government, there are not that many options. Self-determination is a key issue in such a case, unlike in cases where the respective central government is treating its regions decently.

I agree with this. I'm in general however, not convinced that nation-building is a realistic solution. Recent history has shown that it is always a spectacular failure one way or another.

Especially, I don't approve of creating or invading nations without UN blessing, no matter how 'just' the cause seems. If it can't get through the UNSC, then the world isn't ready. Even if it can get through the UNSC, like Israel, the world may not be ready anyway.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 27):
Very funny. That remark is about two decades late by now. Pandora may have a new box on back order, but the old one has been emptied exhaustively already, creating the current situation in the first place.

Those quotes were made by the minister of foreign affairs for Spain, not by me. He was explaining policy. I was explaing to IliriBDL what the Spanish policy was. OK?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 27):
Which is one of the principles which are in most urgent need of reform. Sticking to the principle of non-interference even to the point of passively watching mass murder as long as it is an "internal affair" is a mistake. plain and simple. There were pragmatic reasons to make that choice when the UN was founded, but times change. And so must the UN.

Reformations of the UN are another subject entirely, however I never said non-intervention was Spanish policy.. or even good policy. Simply that Spain won't support the creation of nations without the consent of the UNSC. As it should be, reformations aside. Smaller entities drawing lines is a very bad idea. The UN may not be perfect, but this is not a good idea (serious understatement).

Quoting Klaus (Reply 27):
Israel wasn't the last country founded since 1948, and it is obviously and crucially different from Kosovo.

No, but no country has been founded by cutting up countries and drawing lines through committee or convenience with any success. The entire 20th century went into learning that lesson. Apparently - and ironically - France, Germany and the USA (and a number of other nations) weren't paying attention.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 27):
Pardon me? The EU has never ceased in nation-building, actually! It's one of our collectively biggest strengths. It's not always nice to look at, but when it's done right the results can be quite convincing.

Obviously I disagree. I consider Kosovo to be nation-building. Can't think of any other similar venture of the EU..

Quoting Klaus (Reply 27):
Sure there is. It's the supply side that's lacking. Which is inconvenient, but dissent has always existed within the EU; We can handle it.

Of course we can handle dissent, we've been in a union with the UK for decades!  Smile

Quoting Klaus (Reply 27):
Again: The Balkans have been "unbalanced" with Milosevic's attacks on the other ethnic groups in the region; The independence of Kosovo is one of the last aftershocks of that. Unfortunate in many ways, but for all practical intents and purposes without a realistic alternative under the circumstances. Without the still rampant great-serbian rethoric from Belgrade it would not have happened. Sure, that rethoric may be aimed mostly to the serbian domestic audience; But chauvinism like that doesn't get any better when it's produced by presumable democrats as a populist way to an election win without deeper convictions.

I despise political correctness. To Spain, it is more important to maintain a consistent policy towards these things than to do the PC thing and support Kosovo independence. That's all - no deeper meaning to this policy.

I was just explaining that to IliriBDL. I may have been a bit rough, but he deserved some edge. If he wants someone to sugar-coat it, he can go to the BBC news site. Plenty of frosting there.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 27):
As for Spain, are you kidding us? Are we to believe that this refusal actually has the tiniest bit to do with the Balkans and not with the basque and catalonian separatists? Or with Gibraltar, as explained above?

If you read my post, then you would be able to discern when I'm writing about 'official Spanish policy' and 'actual Spanish policy'. I've answered this in the post above. Actually the one number 25.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 27):
IliriBDL is certainly overdoing it quite a bit around here. But your presentation here has quite a few credibility holes of its own.

Is that a fact? Show me one 'hole' in my credibility. I've explaining policy, which by definition has no holes. It is a hole.

asturias
 
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:29 am

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 28):
Well Asturias, here is an article talking about the meeting. And of course I wasn't there but when our leaders went back to Kosovo, they held interviews with the media and told them about the Spanish pleas to push the declaration. (in fact Spain was never against the independence, it was only Cyprus for known reasons, but they'll too recognize in the coming months)

Thank you for the link to the article. However, I must point out that nowhere in that article does it say that Spanish officials pleaded with Kosovan leaders to push the declaration of independence forward (or backward) nor that Spain was ambivalent regarding Kosovo independence.

I won't draw any conclusions based only on what you say, especially when it flies right in the face of all written and recorded statements by the current Spanish administration.

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 28):
Just to let you know, I wasn't arrogant like you claim I was, I just simply debated with you, and never used any foul language. The truth is that we Albanians have always looked at the Spanish as our allies, actually one of the main allies. There were Albanians that helped your people in the Spanish Civil War. Asim Vokshi for example (from Kosovo) was general of the Garibaldi Battalion. Then there's Mehmet Shehu, Petro Marko, etc.

Well, somehow it came out rather arrogant. Either way, forget about it. Never happened.

Yes, many people came from all over the world to fight in the Civil war. I prefer not to talk about it, other than to say there was nobody fighting on the Spanish side because we were fighting each other. Everybody lost.

I think the article is not very clear on the Spanish position, a ver:

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 28):
"The declaration of Kosovo's independence does not pose a problem for Spain", said Skender Hyseni, spokesperson of Kosovar Albanian negotiators on the UN-administered entity's political status.

Here a Kosovar spokesperson claims Kosovo independence is no issue for Spain.

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 28):
However, Spain has in the past expressed concern about Kosovo taking a unilateral route, not least because it has had to contend with its own Basque separatist movement in the north of the country.

Here it is mentioned that Spain is concerned about Kosovo declaring independence.

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 28):
Observers believe Madrid is likely to be among the last of the EU countries to recognize Kosovo's independence.

Here it is claimed that Spain will be the last EU nation to recognize Kosovo.

It's like I'm quoting three different articles!

For what it's worth, out of respect to Kosovo and to you IliriBDL, I have been trying to explain the Spanish position - the *real* Spanish position - on Kosovo independence. Personally I feel that things like this should go through the UNSC, but I think that position of mine wasn't hidden, so other than that this is about as unbiased as you can get it.

You can choose to take my word for it or not, but I have nothing to gain by you believing me. Your choice.

The only true part I read in that article, was that Spain will likely be the last or one of the last EU nations to recognize Kosovo. Sounds pretty likely.

asturias

[Edited 2008-03-06 21:31:33]
 
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:56 am

Trust me that Kosovo too wanted its case to go through UNSC, but it was not possible with Russia threatening to veto the independence. At the same time there was no turning back (to pre-1999) and going under the Serbian govt, and as we know, the status quo couldn't go on forever, while companies didn't want to invest since they weren't sure what would happen next.


Nice talking to you Asturias, it was a good debate.  Smile


Iliri
 
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:06 am

Ok, one more thing, just found a link to an article (in Spanish) talking about what I said earlier about the Spanish govt asking our govt to delay the declaration, at least until after the elections are over. I don't understand Spanish so hopefully Asturias, you can translate it a bit. (not all of course, just what article is about)

Moratinos intentó retrasar la independencia de Kosovo hasta después de las elecciones del 9 de marzo
http://www.elconfidencial.com/cache/...sovo_hasta_despues_elecciones.html
 
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:29 am

Indeed I can, the headline is "Moratinos tried to delay the independency of Kosovo until after the elections 9M"

The news article tells about how Moratinos used considerable diplomatic effort to get the Kosovo independence declaration delayed until after the Spanish elections to ensure stability in Spain and Europe.

It tells of his diplomatic messages between the minister and various parties on the matter. Though the messages did not explicitly tell that Moratinos was trying to delay the declaration of Kosovo, one can read it between the lines.

Lastly there are some voices criticizing these decisions by the diplomats and they complain Spain has lost international credibility and didn't show enough consideration to grand-European decisions.

hope that helps!

El Confidencial is a centrist newspaper, so they hate both the right and the left Big grin

asturias
 
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:08 am



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 14):

Finland is expected to recognize tomorrow the 7th of March

Finland recognized Kosovo a couple of hours ago. Sorry, took a while, our Lady President was busy in Asia...
Some of the best football players in Finland are from Kosovo originally, some playing professionally in Europe. I am afraid the Finnish National Team looses some talents now  Wink
Kosovians are relatively large immigrant group in Finland.
 
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:47 pm

Thank

Quoting Andaman (Reply 35):
Finland recognized Kosovo a couple of hours ago. Sorry, took a while, our Lady President was busy in Asia...
Some of the best football players in Finland are from Kosovo originally, some playing professionally in Europe. I am afraid the Finnish National Team looses some talents now Wink
Kosovians are relatively large immigrant group in Finland.

Thank you and your country.  Smile

Finland played a major role for Kosovo, and after all President Ahtisaari is from there.

About the players, I think most will remain in Finland. It will probably take a couple of months before they allow Kosovo in UEFA and FIFA. (but it will happen nonetheless)
 
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:29 pm



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 21):
I see you're back to your racist ways.

Umm. You have no clue what "race" actually means don't you? FYI: Kosovans and Poles are Caucasians.

Quoting Andaman (Reply 35):
I am afraid the Finnish National Team looses some talents now
Kosovians are relatively large immigrant group in Finland.

Are you serious? Who in their sane mind will ever leave Finland for Kosovo?
 
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:49 pm



Quoting OlegShv (Reply 37):

Are you serious? Who in their sane mind will ever leave Finland for Kosovo?

I guess it will be the same with Kosovian players than other European football professionals: you don't need to live in your old home country to play in the national team.
I suppose there won't be many immigrants who will return to Kosovo in the near future, but it seems there will be a lot more traffic between Finland and Kosovo, immigrants staying shorter and longer periods in Kosovo.

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 36):

Finland played a major role for Kosovo, and after all President Ahtisaari is from there.

Kosovo's situation has been followed closely in Finland, Mr Ahtisaari being one reason. Finland also is a small nation, been pushed by bigger powers in her history and the independence is didn't come easily.
 
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:28 pm



Quote:
Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 21):
I see you're back to your racist ways.

I said Kosovo, not Congo........

What race do you think most people from Kosovo are that you are labeling me a racist? Asian, Black....maybe Latino?

Is it really that hard to realize we are both Caucasian..or have you guys been spray-tanning again? You truly make me laugh with your ignorance.  rotfl 
 
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:42 pm



Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 12):
Now that the EU in its stupidity

-
The E.U. did neither recognize nor not recognize Kosovo. And to describe those who DID recognize Kosovo as stupid is unacceptable.
-

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 17):
There is no de facto Serbian part of Kosovo. Kosovo is called the republic of Kosovo now, has its own border, govt, etc and has been recognized by 27 countries world wide in just two weeks.

What I meant in my previous post was that if Serbia wants to help the Serbs in Kosovo (which is not the case, since they actually don't care about the Serbs), they would need to recognize Kosovo, and in the process would be allowed to give donations, etc to the Serbian minority.

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The two districts in Northern Kosovo with apparently overwhelming Serbian population should be given the chance to vote about their destiny, and have the chance to leave Kosovo in favour of Serbia. I think there has been enough confligt in ex-Yugoslavia in the past 17 years, and so, a humane solution of that kind might be best for all .
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Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 20):
.hell we cant even get cheap labor out of you

while Mr Thaci has offered to send out "seasonal workers" to interested countries. A good part of the Kosovaris are working outside their country already, and more may try to find work in Western Europe
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Quoting DETA737 (Reply 24):
the Spanish government would in theory have to recognise Gibraltar's independence right to self-determination.

Spain in the end will have to do so anyway. Or risk that Gibraltar joins Morocco !  Wink  Yeah sure  Yeah sure
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Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 28):
Spain will not oppose Kosovo’s independence, a Kosovar Albanian official said on Thursday after talks in Madrid.

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but Spain will be better off by postponing the recognition as long as possible. The situation with the Basques is difficult enough already.
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Quoting Andaman (Reply 35):
Some of the best football players in Finland are from Kosovo originally, some playing professionally in Europe. I am afraid the Finnish National Team looses some talents now

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give them the Finnish citizenship NOW !
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LOT767-300ER
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:01 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 40):
while Mr Thaci has offered to send out "seasonal workers" to interested countries. A good part of the Kosovaris are working outside their country already, and more may try to find work in Western Europe

What I meant is that Kosovo does not have the skilled labor force in numbers or in experience that Poland, Slovakia, Romania, Hungary etc. have.

Theres only 2 million people to begin with including 50% unemployment...with the labor force being just above 800,000, theres almost no IT and Heavy Industries. Not to mention you have a literacy rate in women below 90%, which is pretty damn bad for Europe.
 
iliribdl
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:07 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 40):
The two districts in Northern Kosovo with apparently overwhelming Serbian population should be given the chance to vote about their destiny, and have the chance to leave Kosovo in favour of Serbia. I think there has been enough confligt in ex-Yugoslavia in the past 17 years, and so, a humane solution of that kind might be best for all .

How about the Albanians in the Presevo valley (including Medvegja and Bujanovc)?


If they were to start that process, the whole map of the Balkans would change, and each nationality would ask to connect to their "own" country. (Serbians from Bosnia and Croatia, Albanians from Montenegro and Macedonia, Greeks claiming parts of Macedonia, etc)

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 39):
I said Kosovo, not Congo........

What race do you think most people from Kosovo are that you are labeling me a racist? Asian, Black....maybe Latino?

Is it really that hard to realize we are both Caucasian..or have you guys been spray-tanning again? You truly make me laugh with your ignorance.

Sorry, I should have said you're back to your discriminating ways. (and to answer you and the other guy who asked, yes I know what race is, I'm not stupid)


And oh yeah, you're the ignorant one, being blind to the new reality which has Kosovo as a new country in Europe. Glad you're not running your country. haha
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:21 pm



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 42):
Sorry, I should have said you're back to your discriminating ways. (and to answer you and the other guy who asked, yes I know what race is, I'm not stupid)


And oh yeah, you're the ignorant one, being blind to the new reality which has Kosovo as a new country in Europe. Glad you're not running your country. haha

How am I being ignorant? I have stated nothing but facts. I realize it is a new country, so what...you want a cookie,?Your "new" country was created illegally and has more problems for getting independence recognition than East Timor.

If I was running my country I would not recognize your country because thats the will of the majority of my countrymen and I would push for my forces to take your country to a Laundromat and use some Tide with Bleach to clean the drug/arms filth that hides there.
 
iliribdl
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:35 pm



Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 41):
What I meant is that Kosovo does not have the skilled labor force in numbers or in experience that Poland, Slovakia, Romania, Hungary etc. have.

Theres only 2 million people to begin with including 50% unemployment...with the labor force being just above 800,000, theres almost no IT and Heavy Industries. Not to mention you have a literacy rate in women below 90%, which is pretty damn bad for Europe.

Of course currently we are not at the level that Hungary, Poland and Slovakia is. But that came with the 9 years of status quo and companies being afraid to invest.

Also remember that more than 50% of the population is under 24 years old in Kosovo. And that part of population, is well educated, the majority know more than 2 languages, and are hard working. I actually can't wait until the companies see how hard working we are when they invest in the coming years.  Wink

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 43):
How am I being ignorant? I have stated nothing but facts. I realize it is a new country, so what...you want a cookie,?Your "new" country was created illegally and has more problems for getting independence recognition than East Timor.

You have stated everything but facts. Face it buddy, you hate Albanians and Kosovo. Nothing else you can say after that and everything you actually do say is just (excuse my language) *crap*.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 43):


If I was running my country I would not recognize your country because thats the will of the majority of my countrymen and I would push for my forces to take your country to a Laundromat and use some Tide with Bleach to clean the drug/arms filth that hides there.

Thats why I said I'm glad you don't run your country, because its people like you that started wars in the Balkans (and the world wars). People that hate and have nothing good to say.

Want a cookie? What kind of dialogue is that.
 
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Asturias
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:59 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 40):
Spain in the end will have to do so anyway. Or risk that Gibraltar joins Morocco !      

I really enjoy people who are so arrogant and offensive that they actually go full circle and become funny. You, sadly, just come out incredibly arrogant and offensive and not the least bit amusing.

Your only redeeming value could have been entertainment value, but you fail.

asturias
 
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PA110
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:12 am



Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 43):
I would push for my forces to take your country to a Laundromat and use some Tide with Bleach to clean the drug/arms filth that hides there.

OK, that's a bit uncalled for. Kosovo has its share of problems, and I'm not 100% sure that full independence was the best solution for the region as a whole. The fact that 50% of the population is under 24 is presents a huge problem. The population is breeding itself into permanent poverty - something you only see in the poorest nations on earth. There is always a disconnect between having a large family and having the ability to provide for them. Economics notwithstanding, tThe Albanian populations in both Kosovo and Macedonia are growing at a disproportionate rate in comparison to the other ethnic groups, and this is only putting more pressure on the conflict.

The point about drugs and arms is a valid one, but can't be used as a broad generalization. Yes, the lack of any semblance of a regional/national economy has created an underground economy. This is in part due to years of neglect by the Serbian govvernment to maintain an equal living standard across the entire country. Instead, they ignored Kosovo for decades, despite it's rich cultural significance. Kosovar officials need to step up now, and put an end to the drug/arms/prostitute trade.

But the deed is done. Whether recognized or not, Kosovo has been given its own sovereignty. However, unless foreign investment comes soon, Kosovo will not become a viable state. It will be unable to address the aspirations of its people, and anarchy will ensue.
 
ALexeu
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:11 pm



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 42):
How about the Albanians in the Presevo valley (including Medvegja and Bujanovc)?

Well, you already took Pristina, Prizren, Djakovica etc from us and now you want Medvedja and Bujanovac ??? Northern Kosovo should stay Serbia, or at least stay in Kosovo and Metohija, but not Kosova. It's not same.
 
iliribdl
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Posts: 574
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:46 pm

Alex you know better than me that we didn't take anything from you, and the fact is that your people (not accusing you of course) took everything from us, our people have been pushed out of Serbia (from Nis on down, actually there were a couple of thousands living in Belgrade as well), into Kosovo, and in the 1930s and 1950, thousands were made (with force) to leave Kosovo for other nations (most went to Turkey, which had an agreement with Serbia).

Prishtina, Gjakova, Prizreni, were always Albanian, and will always remain Albanian. Serbians on the other hand can live wherever they want in Kosovo, but you can't claim that it is "Serbian land", because no one in this world will buy that lie anymore. (not even the Russians, who only want to use Serbia as a piece of chess)
 
ALexeu
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RE: Slovenia Recognises Kosovo (ex-Yugoslav State)

Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:23 pm



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 48):
Alex you know better than me that we didn't take anything from you, and the fact is that your people (not accusing you of course) took everything from us, our people have been pushed out of Serbia (from Nis on down, actually there were a couple of thousands living in Belgrade as well), into Kosovo, and in the 1930s and 1950, thousands were made (with force) to leave Kosovo for other nations (most went to Turkey, which had an agreement with Serbia).

Prishtina, Gjakova, Prizreni, were always Albanian, and will always remain Albanian. Serbians on the other hand can live wherever they want in Kosovo, but you can't claim that it is "Serbian land", because no one in this world will buy that lie anymore. (not even the Russians, who only want to use Serbia as a piece of chess)

I have to agree with this, but that's not what I was trying to say. I was just saying that you are confusing two different things (Presevo valley with Northern Kosovo). Serbs in Northern Kosovo should have right to choose wheter they want to remain in Serbia (because they would rather live in Serbia, not in independent Kosovo). If Pristina had right to choose independence, Serbian Kosovars should have right to choose to remain in Serbia.

Btw, I think we need a topic about Kosovo aviation (what happened to Air Prishtina and Kosova Airlines?)

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