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Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:35 am



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 27):
Would a bombing raid on South Boston have been an acceptible reaction by the UK government ?

Depends on your definition of "urban remodelling" - it couldn't make much harm in that sense, I guess.  duck 

Seriously, I mostly agree with the points you have made here but I don't think you are right regarding the IRA, I don't think they were at all comparable to Al Qaeda. They were fighting for a legitimate cause (independence from colonizers), whether you agree with it or not, and the attacks on soldiers during that struggle cannot be considered terrorism. Besides, the absolutely botched way the UK's judicial system handled the whole Northern Ireland situation is in no way an example on how things should be conducted (perhaps even military tribunals could have done a better job).

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 36):
The northern alliance?

You seriously think the Northern Alliance (a group of opium-trafficking warlords) has any semblance to a form of legitimate government? It is one thing to use them against the Talibans, which I have nothing against, but from that to calling them the legitimate government of Afghanistan pre-2001 is a huge stretch.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 36):
Then you have to define torture. I don't see water boarding, sleep deprivation, or any of the other techniques that would have been outlawed as "torture".

Will you be so kind as to write an e-mail to the political prisoners in Portugal pre-1974 and explain them that they were in no way being tortured, just interrogated by the PIDE? Or write to your congressman to have the Japanese officers convicted of waterboarding american POWs during WWII posthumously acquited of all charges?

Didn't think so.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 48):
Okay, so don't make it seem like the French were one of our best allies and we could always depend on them

So your definition of a good ally is someone who always does what you expect of them?

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 48):
The same UN that can't (or rather, won't) do shit about genocide in Africa

The killings in Africa have as much to do with the UN as they have to do with colonialism, use of natural resources or any other white-men guilt trips, which is to say nothing. People have been hacking each other to death for millenia and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future, the UN has nothing to do with it.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 49):
If you are not in a uniform that can be defined then you are charged as would any spy or saboteur, with resistance against the armed forces of the nation you are attacking. It's been that way for centuries.

It's been that way for centuries because the so-called "rules of war" have, just like history, been written by the winners, who consider sending thousands of troops in highly-visible uniforms march in barecheasted formation against incoming fire as signs of bravery and acceptable combat but a farmer and his pitchfork as somehow ungentlemanlike.

Seriously, if your village was overrun by an invading army and you had to flee to the mountains with whatever weapon you could find would looking for a uniform of a country that might no longer exist or have capitulated by the time you got there be your first priority?
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:39 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:47 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 36):
Since the Taliban controls 2/3 of Afghanistan

Source.

Aren't you suppose to be in Cancun and you're posting here. Someone needs to get a life..  bored 

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNe...eNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0://
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:48 am



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 50):
You seriously think the Northern Alliance (a group of opium-trafficking warlords) has any semblance to a form of legitimate government? It is one thing to use them against the Talibans, which I have nothing against, but from that to calling them the legitimate government of Afghanistan pre-2001 is a huge stretch.

To evict the Taliban yes, as a lasting form of government would depend, as we did, on the vote of the people. No government any where is perfect but if the people support it through free and fair elections it must be recognized as such. The Taliban had neither.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 50):
Didn't think so.

The prisoners at Gitmo are not political prisoners so your email would not apply and water boarding in that instance would be a form of torture since nothing but self satisfaction would be gained by its use. The Japanese officers you refer to were also charged with far greater crimes than water boarding were they not?

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 50):
It's been that way for centuries because the so-called "rules of war" have, just like history, been written by the winners,

The rules of war have generally been accepted by both sides prior to the start of hostilities.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 50):
Seriously, if your village was overrun by an invading army and you had to flee to the mountains with whatever weapon you could find would looking for a uniform of a country that might no longer exist or have capitulated by the time you got there be your first priority?

I would consider myself to be a resistance fighter subject to immediate and summary execution if so ordered upon my capture.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:10 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 49):
Do either of you really believe that water boarding or any of the 16 other interrogation methods described in the bill actually started under this administration? That no other administration ever sanctioned these practices?

Irrelevant. This certain President has now publically stated, with this veto, that he is not against torture. What a sad commentary on him, a so-called "Christian", and president of a nation that should be above such things. It should be embarrassing to every American who really things their nation is better than that.
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:18 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 52):
The Taliban had neither.

Neither did the Northern Alliance in 2001.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 52):
and water boarding in that instance would be a form of torture since nothing but self satisfaction would be gained by its use

Actually no, it was used as an interrogation technique. And the actual status of the people in question (political prisoners vs unlawful combatants ve whatever) is irrelevant when classifying it as torture or not.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 52):
The rules of war have generally been accepted by both sides prior to the start of hostilities.

I never saw a formal contract being signed before a war starts. In any way, those rules were designed for confrotantions between governments when most wars are actually fought between people. Since when is fighting and dying for your government more honorable than doing it for your country?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 52):
I would consider myself to be a resistance fighter subject to immediate and summary execution if so ordered upon my capture.

So you are admitting here that you would engage in an action that you knew was unlawful and punishable by death? Isn't it a bit hypocritical then to criticize people who undertake that same action?
 
FlyDeltaJets87
Posts: 4479
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:51 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:21 am



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 50):
So your definition of a good ally is someone who always does what you expect of them?

Okay, please give me a nice list of reassons why France is a great ally in today's world. I've given you some recent examples of why they aren't, so please tell me why they are. Please show me some reasons to believe that should the shit ever really hit the fan, we can depend on France to be right there with the US.


Quoting Pyrex (Reply 50):
The killings in Africa have as much to do with the UN as they have to do with colonialism, use of natural resources or any other white-men guilt trips, which is to say nothing. People have been hacking each other to death for millenia and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future, the UN has nothing to do with it.

Never said the UN was responsible for causing it, but hey, I thought the whole point of the United Nations was to work at solving problems like this and intervening when necessary. However, thank you for proving my point that the organization is pretty much completely worthless.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:33 am



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 55):
Okay, please give me a nice list of reassons why France is a great ally in today's world. I've given you some recent examples of why they aren't, so please tell me why they are. Please show me some reasons to believe that should the shit ever really hit the fan, we can depend on France to be right there with the US.

Because they're a free, democratic nation. Because they do share a lot of the same beliefs and values as the U.S. Because, in the end, they are our friend, not an enemy. That's reason enough.

And I don't want to depend on France to agree with us every time. They are a soverign nation, and have every right to do what's in their best interest, not just kowtow to the U.S.-which is what pissed off so many people during the debate on war in Iraq. I don't want puppets, ala the old Warsaw Pact. I'd rather have nations that can think for themselves, not bow to our demands.

Both nations have stood by each other throughout the history of the U.S. France helped us gain our independence; we helped them regain theirs. There is a lot of shared history between the two, and, in the end, France and the U.S. are friends-except to those who want France to be a vassel for us.
 
northwestair
Posts: 515
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2001 11:25 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:46 am

If Waterboarding saves American Lives then so be it. I would have no problem Waterboarding a Terrorist. Everytime you turn the TV on all you see is the Islamic people in Afghan saying how someone needs to be executed because they said something bad about the koran. You don't see Christians saying that a Islamic Koran reading person should be killed because they said something bad about the Bible. I actually stand behind President Bush and thank that he has saved many American Lives. I hope that we get another President that has the same views as President Bush.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:20 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 32):
Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 30):
Descend to their level and no matter what happens, they win.

Again, if we were using torture on a regular basis or on every prisoner than that idea might have merit. But the fact is that it is not used on every prisoner nor as a first option unlike the terrorist who have a common habit of holding a show trial and then cutting the victims head off on camera.

Perhaps not waterboarding but treatment that most consider torture does seem to have been meted out to most prisoners. Try being shackled in a standing position for 24 hours and see how you feel.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 32):
Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 30):
How is that different to OBL ?

The people in Boston who gave money to help the IRA did not direct attacks against British soldiers. First charge of that I've ever heard.

Well what else did you think they were going to do with semtex and machine guns?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 36):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 31):
I wonder if Rjdxer is going to provide us a list of the inhabitants of Gitmo and the actions in which they were captured by US troops. Don't worry Rjdxer, it will be a short list AFAIK.

Why should I? I trust that they are there because they are deemed a threat and when they are not they are sent back to their home countries, or do you deny that we are sending them home? Of course feel free to post links to leftist newspapers and reporters blogs that claim that we just kidnapped a bunch of peaceful goat herders off the side of a mountain.

Apparently, it is news to you Rj but most or probably all of those in Gitmo were not captured by US forces (debatable if a coherent US force was on the ground most of the time) but by N Alliance, who sold some of their prisoners to the US. It is difficult not to think that subsequent US actions were designed to make sure they got "value for their purchases". A few more confessions gave you added value.

By and large I don't read blogs, a.net excepted. Mayhap if you did not spend so much time on them, you would know a bit more of what the rest of the world has known since about 2002.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 44):
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 26):
I believe like many that if Pres. Bush were allow this bill to pass, then he would be admitting 'waterboarding' to be a form of torture and put him, many in his administration as well as some in the CIA at risk for international criminal tribunals.

All depends on how the bill is worded, since you can't pass a bill and then retroactively prosecute those who committed the act before it was deemed illegal.

True, except that Bush and his allies have been hot to trot on using retrospective laws for prosecutions. The current mess with the Bali bombers is due to that - they were urged to use retrospectively terrorist laws when Indonesia had perfectly good laws about murder. So maybe they DO fear sauce for the gander.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 47):
It would be pathetic if we couldn't find a few bandits in the world with our $500 billion annual military budget, plus another $500 billion. Is this the "better way to confront terrorism?"

 checkmark  500,000,000 reasons, and how many real terrorists have been caught by the US. Not many, and I know of a couple caught by others, handed over to the US, that they have allowed to escape.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 47):
On the other hand, "Muslim extremists" are perfectly happy to sit back, wait a generation and then attack us in 2031. We have done nothing to prevent that. And much to cause it. I am expecting a lifetime of difficulty because of George "Jesus is my favorite historical figure," "I don't read the newspaper" W. Bush.

Excellent summery Flighty. The top guys are indeed patient although the foot soldiers tend to be a bit more hot headed.
 
flynavy
Posts: 2179
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:31 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 44):
Signed,
The US Armed Forces

   Who in the HELL do you think you are? You haven't set one FOOT on the sands of Iraq nor sailed one inch of the Persian Gulf.

WHEN and IF you ever do so, only THEN could you even THINK about making that kind of statement, much less speaking for all of "us."

 

[Edited 2008-03-08 23:37:50]
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:51 am



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 55):
Okay, please give me a nice list of reassons why France is a great ally in today's world. I've given you some recent examples of why they aren't, so please tell me why they are. Please show me some reasons to believe that should the shit ever really hit the fan, we can depend on France to be right there with the US.

They have been fighting side-by-side with you in Afghanistan, they have provided you with valuable information about terrorism (they have, after all, doing this for longer than you have) and, most importantly of all, they advised you not to go into Iraq (the biggest strategic mistake you have made in a long, long while). I don't know about you, but for me a friend is someone who stops me from doing stupid things.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 55):
Never said the UN was responsible for causing it, but hey, I thought the whole point of the United Nations was to work at solving problems like this and intervening when necessary. However, thank you for proving my point that the organization is pretty much completely worthless.

I hate to say this, but Africa is a lost continent, who has seen the same abject misery and violence despite all the money and effort put into it. The only way it is ever going to stand up straight is for it to be ignored for the international community for a long time, at least enough to get it's house in order. The problem with the UN is that everybody (i.e. it's member states) seems to think it should get involved in Africa, when it's precisely the opposite.
 
flynavy
Posts: 2179
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:54 am



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 60):
They have been fighting side-by-side with you in Afghanistan, they have provided you with valuable information about terrorism (they have, after all, doing this for longer than you have) and, most importantly of all, they advised you not to go into Iraq (the biggest strategic mistake you have made in a long, long while). I don't know about you, but for me a friend is someone who stops me from doing stupid things.

"He" has never set foot on Afghan soil, "he" has never fought terrorism, nor has "he" hasn't set foot on Iraqi soil.
 
greggarious
Posts: 239
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:42 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:12 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 44):
We appreciate the support. *sarcasm*

Signed,
The US Armed Forces
(yea, that includes me)

As much as I appreciate the protection of the US Armed Forces and respect its members for it, I cannot for a second see a picture of a soldier or marine in Iraq and convince myself that they are there in my defense, nor are they there for a "free" Iraq. This was never a war of liberation, but of occupation from its inception. Ever read John Steinbeck's "The Moon Is Down?" The similarities between the occupying Germans in the novel and the US Army in Iraq today are, if nothing else, heartbreaking.

Quoting Northwestair (Reply 57):
If Waterboarding saves American Lives then so be it.

No. Waterboarding, simply put, IS torture, and any information extracted from such practices should be regarded as highly suspect (and how would that save American lives?). There's a lot of literature on the subject. I'd recommend "The Dark Art of Interrogation" by Mark Bowden, a journalist for the Atlantic.

Quoting Northwestair (Reply 57):
I hope that we get another President that has the same views as President Bush.

I emphatically hope that this isn't the case. Fortunately, I don't think that the candidates have the stomach for similar views (of course, one of the candidates is well-versed in torture and interrogation... on the receiving end)

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 38):
For a President of the United States to openly support torture-and, I'm sorry, I don't care who the torture is aimed at, is a dark, black day in American history, and will further sully the reputation of this President and this administration.

   Very well said, Falcon.

Edit: Awful grammar

[Edited 2008-03-09 00:14:33]
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:44 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 49):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 40):
It would have been too much to ask for you to have an actually decent response, I guess.

And as usual it would have been too much for you to actually ask a decent question.

I was clearly asking why you are still arguing along the lines of "24" being real and "proof" that torture was an acceptable and effective means of protecting the USA.

But it's not surprising that you're shying away from a clear answer.
 
LHStarAlliance
Topic Author
Posts: 2096
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:15 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:46 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 38):

For a President of the United States to openly support torture-and, I'm sorry, I don't care who the torture is aimed at, is a dark, black day in American history, and will further sully the reputation of this President and this administration.

Yea very well said !

Just to make a Picture : Here in Germany most people think that America is more dangerous than Iran , this may be stupid , but the Anti-Americanism is very very high in Germany , for example my Math Teacher said more than 5 Times
"Americans are dumber than bread" . You all may remember that some Months ago , almost a year , I had pretty the same thoughts , now I have a complete other thinking , but this just came after having more contact to the American culture and people . But most of Germans don't have this .

And IMO we have to be very grateful to America , we'd speaking Russian , if America wouldn't have protected us . All this faith and friendship between the American People and the German is losing just because of Bush . I hope under Obama , Mc Cain or Clinton this will change .

Constantin

 
flynavy
Posts: 2179
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:29 am



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 64):
"Americans are dumber than bread" . You all may remember that some Months ago , almost a year , I had pretty the same thoughts , now I have a complete other thinking , but this just came after having more contact to the American culture and people . But most of Germans don't have this .

I hope you can instill some reality in your math teacher. It saddens me to hear about her attitude.

But what saddens me more is that my country has been hijacked for the last 6 years by a bunch of xenophobic "moral" neocons. But thankfully, based on the sheer number of people voting for "change" versus the number of people voting for a GOP candidate, the Republicans have already lost the election.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:42 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 49):
The age old conservative Christian belief in the Book of Revelation

Oh no. Seriously, no. I am happy to respect your faith, but that one is hard to let go. Revelations ? It's the mushroom-induced ravings of a walled-up hermit, no better than Nostradamus or the endless drivellings of Shirley Mclain. As an exercise in apocalyptic Join-Us-Or-Burn-In-Hell mind manipulation for the illiterate, it's very powerful, but as a philosophical text is has all the value of a bubble-gum card. But we digress.

Revelations is very much open to interpretation - that is why it is there. Predictions of the so-called "end-times" have been manipulated to fit actual facts since the New Testament was codified. Almost all of Christianity was firmly convinced that the Apocalypse would happen in the year 1000, and the Islamic takeover of the Holy Land was seen as firm proof of this. It was the same in 1200, and 1500. It still hasn't happened. Obscure "predictive" texts full of indecipherable imagery and lets be honest, arrant delusional nonsense, are very convenient in that they can be massaged to fit almost any set of events. Whatever happens, and whatever one's religious predelictions, an actual Second Coming / Rapture / Millennial Utopia is highly unlikely, and the sooner people learn that it's better to try and fix the world we've got than wait for a new one to arrive, the better.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 49):
The prosecution of that war can be considered a crime. Using gas against your enemies flies in the face of several treaties.

True, and had the people of Iraq not had a fairly terminal say in the fate of Saddam Hussein, the international court would have had its chance. As it turns out, it was not required.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 50):
They were fighting for a legitimate cause (independence from colonizers),

Ooohhhh - them's fightin' words. Not that I have any truck with either side in the stupid, pointless and entirely futile Northern Irish "conflict", but "colonizers" ? Yes OK technically and historically that's true, but the democratically expressed choice of the people of Ulster was to stay as part of the United Kingdom. That is what self-determination means. The duty of a citizen of a democracy is to accept the will of the majority, and try to change it through democratic means. Blowing up shopping malls and parks in England could never be an acceptible alternative. To my mind, the actions of the IRA and those of Al Quaeda are exactly and inextricably identical.
 
LHStarAlliance
Topic Author
Posts: 2096
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:15 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:46 am



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 65):
I hope you can instill some reality in your math teacher. It saddens me to hear about her attitude.

He's a man . I've tried already ...
 
flynavy
Posts: 2179
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:48 am



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 61):
nor has "he" hasn't set foot on Iraqi soil.

Dang, I really botched the grammar there, didn't I? Need more coffee.  bigthumbsup 

Big version: Width: 492 Height: 315 File size: 128kb
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:59 am

Out of curiousity, what do you guys think about sleep deprivation, playing loud music or strange sounds, rapid and random temperature changes, and sensory deprivation (putting hoods over their heads to deny them the opportunity to know where they are, and what their surroundings look like)?

-UH60
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:03 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 69):
Out of curiousity, what do you guys think about sleep deprivation, playing loud music or strange sounds, rapid and random temperature changes, and sensory deprivation (putting hoods over their heads to deny them the opportunity to know where they are, and what their surroundings look like)?

Add a few shots of tequila, and it could be Saturday night.  Smile

Seriously though, it amounts to the same thing as waterboarding and can damage a person in the long term. Inflicting physical harm or the threat of physical harm (and it IS physical harm, even if no actual physical injury is inflicted) in an effort to induce cooperation - that is the definition of torture.
 
flynavy
Posts: 2179
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:12 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 69):

Do such acts violate the Geneva Conventions? You'll have to be more specific as to who, what, where, when, and why.
 
LHStarAlliance
Topic Author
Posts: 2096
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:15 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:24 am



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 70):

Seriously though, it amounts to the same thing as waterboarding and can damage a person in the long term. Inflicting physical harm or the threat of physical harm (and it IS physical harm, even if no actual physical injury is inflicted) in an effort to induce cooperation - that is the definition of torture.

don't forget the psychological harm !
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:27 am



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 70):
Seriously though, it amounts to the same thing as waterboarding and can damage a person in the long term. Inflicting physical harm or the threat of physical harm (and it IS physical harm, even if no actual physical injury is inflicted) in an effort to induce cooperation - that is the definition of torture.

Well in regards to "hooding" there is a legitimate need to keep them from knowing where they are being taken (location of holding areas are highly sensitive and cannot be known by the enemy or captive), also the identities of individuals working in these locations cannot be known, and also it simply makes everyone safer when the captive cannot judge his surroundings while being move/transported, by preventing him from devising an attack.

-UH60
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:28 am



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 72):

don't forget the psychological harm !

Well isn't capture and holding a form of psychological harm? Should we simply not hold them, then?

-UH60
 
LHStarAlliance
Topic Author
Posts: 2096
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:15 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:30 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 74):
Well isn't capture and holding a form of psychological harm? Should we simply not hold them, then?

I mean Waterboarding , which gives the Person the feeling of dying . Which is called Torture , and this is forbidden by the Geneva Convention . Capture and Holding is a psychological harm if they don't get their rights like a Lawyer or if they stay without any charge in prison .
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:36 am



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 75):

I mean Waterboarding , which gives the Person the feeling of dying

I'm not talking about water boarding. Pay attention. I specifically limited my query to a select number of information extraction techniques.

-UH60
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:38 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 74):
Should we simply not hold them, then?

Charge them or release them. That's how "habeas corpus" works - basic jurisprudence. If these people are criminals, charge them and if they're guilty, put them in jail. Otherwise they have to be released. Anything else is just abuse.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 73):
Well in regards to "hooding" there is a legitimate need to keep them from knowing where they are being taken (location of holding areas are highly sensitive and cannot be known by the enemy or captive), also the identities of individuals working in these locations cannot be known, and also it simply makes everyone safer when the captive cannot judge his surroundings while being move/transported, by preventing him from devising an attack.

Hooding is done more to humiliate the prisoner than for any tactical reason. Putting a hood on a person while they're flying on an aircraft without windows is just stupid. So it cable-tying their hands. Where are they going to to go ? In any case, it looks good on camera, makes it seem like you're being mean to the bad guys. No doubt the media laps it up. But to delude yourself into thinking that these locations are actually secret, in this day and age, is naive. It's very hard to keep such places a secret for long.
 
LHStarAlliance
Topic Author
Posts: 2096
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:15 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:41 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 76):

I'm not talking about water boarding. Pay attention.

Then don't quote me when I'm speaking about waterboarding !

And I've made my statement about "Holding" .. I say : Hold them but with charges and a lawyer .

Constantin
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3542
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:45 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 29):
Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 27):
So what would you call those who orchestrated IRA terrorism from the comfort of homes and pubs in Massachussetts and New York ?


Financiers and if evidence was strong enough to charge them with aiding and abetting I would have no problem seeing them charged.

State protected scum

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 32):
The people in Boston who gave money to help the IRA did not direct attacks against British soldiers. First charge of that I've ever heard.

Where have you been living ?


Did the great American public think the money they dropped into those Noraid tins on the bar counters, went to finance Sunday School Outings ?

We hear now of the fanaticism of the moslem extremists; the blind devotion to the IRA extremism was little different, and the US authorities, did virtually nothing to cut off their souce of funds.
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:58 am



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 77):
Charge them or release them. That's how "habeas corpus" works - basic jurisprudence. If these people are criminals, charge them and if they're guilty, put them in jail. Otherwise they have to be released. Anything else is just abuse.

The problem I have with this -- and we've discussed it before -- you cannot always hold a typical trial for everyone we capture.

The story I always tell is the one about when I was shot at, while standing at a gate. I saw the man who shot at me (and thankfully he couldn't shoot for shit). A group of grunts gave chase, captured him and put him in holding. Now the only evidence against him was me witnessing him do it. There was no fancy CSI team to go take pictures, dig up the bullet and do ballistic testing, no video, no pictures... nothing. And that is often the case in a war zone. We don't have the luxury to conduct your Hollywood style crime scene investigation.

If that was in the US, a sleazy lawyer could get him off in a heart beat!!! That man almost killed me, and I am not ashamed that my sworn statement helped take him off the streets. But do you think I ought to be ashamed of that?

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 77):
Hooding is done more to humiliate the prisoner than for any tactical reason. Putting a hood on a person while they're flying on an aircraft without windows is just stupid.

I don't want to get into details of things I saw, but there is more to the situation than you're giving credit too.

When we move the asset, we often have indigenous personnel around, who are helping to identify, translate, educate, etc. If their identities are known, not only are they at risk, so are the lives of their family members. I don't think there is anything wrong with keeping them in the dark, while we move them from the location of capture, to the holding facility.

Rules regarding "hooding" while in captivity have dramatically changed in the past few years, and I think for the better. But in regards to those first 24hrs -- when we're moving them to the holding centers and they're not in a secure environment - hooding is important.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 77):
But to delude yourself into thinking that these locations are actually secret, in this day and age, is naive.

You're thinking on to large a scale.

I am not referring to large, long-term holding facilities. I am referring to the smaller, short term facilities that we use to debrief individuals recently captured on the battlefield. These places are small, nondescript, and do not hold assets for more than a few days.

I challenge you, or any other person without a clearance, to report these locations. Because not even the personnel working on those FOBs/bases often know what's happening.

-UH60
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:02 am



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 78):
Then don't quote me when I'm speaking about waterboarding !

You were quoting JGPH1A... who was talking about my questions regarding other types of techniques. When he was taking about physical harm - and you added "and psychological harm!" - he was talking about the techniques I was asking about. I specifically omitted water boarding from my query.

Like I said, pay closer attention.

-UH60
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:04 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 74):
Well isn't capture and holding a form of psychological harm? Should we simply not hold them, then?

Deliberately exposing people to traumatizing experiences against their will is generally wrong, and doing so in order to coerce a "confession" no matter whether there actually is something to confess or not is absolutely inexcusable and also damaging to the people and organisations executing such practices.

You can ask anybody who had been detained without trial and without chance of legal recourse that the absence of the rule of law in such situations will almost certainly lead to desperation, psychosis and traumatic long-term damage of the victim, especially those who are innocent (and it is a documented fact that by far most if not all detainees were and are in fact innocent).

Threatened or executed physical torture makes matters worse again.

It is shocking and disgusting that we have to discuss this as an actual painful reality in the Guantanamo/Abu Ghraib/rendition complex, condoned and executed by the democracy presumably leading the "free world" and not just as the horrible excesses of a communist or third-world dictatorship from which one would automatically expect these kinds of things.

Even worse so, citizens of said democracy openly defending and advocating such practices.

And worst of all, seeing the president of said democracy openly vetoing their abolition.

 yuck 
 
flynavy
Posts: 2179
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:11 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 80):
We don't have the luxury to conduct your Hollywood style crime scene investigation.

Excellent point. However, we do have a luxury - not to mention a moral obligation - to obey international law and to conduct ourselves within the boundaries of them.
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:11 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 82):
Deliberately exposing people to traumatizing experiences against their will is generally wrong, and doing so in order to coerce a "confession" no matter whether there actually is something to confess or not is absolutely inexcusable and also damaging to the people and organisations executing such practices.

Please do not infer that I was suggesting we do this, nor was I supporting doing this.

I have not even given my opinion on the subject... so I don't appreciate you lecturing me on the evils of American policy.

-UH60
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:11 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 80):
I am not referring to large, long-term holding facilities. I am referring to the smaller, short term facilities that we use to debrief individuals recently captured on the battlefield. These places are small, nondescript, and do not hold assets for more than a few days.

Immediate necessities to get an emergency situation under control will always be more difficult and cannot always be controlled as clearly as one would like. There is little criticism about that in general.

A line is crossed, however, after the situation has been brought under control and people are then subjected to deliberate abuse instead of reasonable and humane treatment.

A crucial difference.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:17 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 84):
Please do not infer that I was suggesting we do this, nor was I supporting doing this.

I'm not. You have been more careful and more thoughtful than many others in these matters and I appreciate that.

The approach you were putting on the table for examination, however, most definitely deserves to be torn to shreds. And some of the splatter may hit those who actually hold its leash.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 84):
I have not even given my opinion on the subject... so I don't appreciate you lecturing me on the evils of American policy.

That's one of my main points: It is at its very core an unamerican policy!
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:22 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 80):
you cannot always hold a typical trial for everyone we capture.



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 80):
The story I always tell is the one about when I was shot at, while standing at a gate. I saw the man who shot at me (and thankfully he couldn't shoot for shit). A group of grunts gave chase, captured him and put him in holding. Now the only evidence against him was me witnessing him do it. There was no fancy CSI team to go take pictures, dig up the bullet and do ballistic testing, no video, no pictures... nothing. And that is often the case in a war zone. We don't have the luxury to conduct your Hollywood style crime scene investigation.

I understand where you're coming from, and yours is a particular situation - engaged in an occupation of another country, and encountering armed resistance to said occupation. The morality or legality of the situation is not at issue here. However, the treatment of suspects is. In theory, since the attack was commited in Iraq, the suspect should be handed over to the Iraqi authorities for prosecution, charged with attempted murder. Since this is obviously not going to happen, what to do ? Truth is, I have no idea. You are operating in a legal vacuum. If there was a proper government in Iraq, this would be a no-brainer, but there isn't. In the meantime, I can't think of a solution in which the rule of law can be respected. But whatever happens, the guy shouldn't be tortured, that is for absolutely certain. If all you can do is detain them until properly constituted legal authority can be put in place, that's what you have to do.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 80):
If that was in the US, a sleazy lawyer could get him off in a heart beat!!! That man almost killed me, and I am not ashamed that my sworn statement helped take him off the streets. But do you think I ought to be ashamed of that?

You have nothing to be ashamed of. You (and as dumb as this sounds, seeing as you're the guy with the armed helicopter) are the victim here - he shot at you. Regardless of his reasons for doing so, the guy who shot at you is in the wrong. You and I might argue as to whether that makes him an "illegal combatant" or not - a lot depends on who is the actual executive authority in Iraq, and on the legal status of US Forces operating there. If you are acting as an enforcement agency on behalf of the Iraqi goverment, he isn't a combatant, he's a criminal. If a state of war still exists and the US is the defacto occupying power, then he might be considered a "combatant". But "combat operations in Iraq are concluded" - not so ? So he's a criminal, and therefore the problem of the Iraqi government.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 80):
When we move the asset, we often have indigenous personnel around, who are helping to identify, translate, educate, etc. If their identities are known, not only are they at risk, so are the lives of their family members. I don't think there is anything wrong with keeping them in the dark, while we move them from the location of capture, to the holding facility.

It probably doesn't do any damage, keeping them blindfolded, but it just illustrates the whole f***ed up nature of the operation where those who work with the occupiers are seen as the enemy. Regardless of right or wrong, nobody wins.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 80):
I challenge you, or any other person without a clearance, to report these locations. Because not even the personnel working on those FOBs/bases often know what's happening.

I probably can't, but I bet it's not much of a secret in Iraq, not really. People aren't stupid.
 
flynavy
Posts: 2179
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:29 am



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 87):



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 84):

See, we all can agree eventually - at least, to an extent.  bigthumbsup 
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:32 am

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 83):

Excellent point. However, we do have a luxury - not to mention a moral obligation - to obey international law and to conduct ourselves within the boundaries of them.

I agree. But I do think that some people are naive to believe we can hold American style trials for every person we capture.

I also think there is a certain level of general ignorance about who we often capture and interrogate. Places like Guantanamo Bay get all of the attention and condemnation from the public... so many people just assume Guantanamo Bay is the standard for all interrogation facilities!! And it is totally not the case!

Many people don't realize the vast majority of enemy combatants never leave the country of capture, nor do they remain in custody for extended periods of time.

9 out of 10 times, we capture a "small fish" - bring him to where trained interrogators are - question him for useful information, and then release him. No water boarding, no sleep deprivation, no extended holding periods, and certainly no torture, ever occurs. But we do "hood" them. And it's very important to do so. Like I said - they're not brought to some distant country, they're brought to local FOB. They can't know the location of this FOB because they'll be released in short order, and that type of sensitive information shouldn't get back to the enemy. And the captured enemy certainly cannot know the location of the exact buildings used for interrogation... because it would be an immediate mortar/artillery target, once he was released! And lastly, the captured person cannot know the identities of the local people who are identifying them, and interpreting their statements... because these people are potentially local neighbors, and would be endanger if the captured enemy could report back what they were doing for the Americans.

Anyway, it's those 1 out of 10 captures that draws all the attention. These are the "big fish" who get shipped off to some distant location, and held for long periods of time. These cases need to be handled with greater care and dignity, and certainly within the boundaries of established international law. But when we create rules for treatment of captured enemy combatants, we need to separate the rules for long and short term holding... because as I showed, the circumstances are usually totally different.

-UH60

[Edited 2008-03-09 04:35:10]
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:33 am



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 88):
See, we all can agree eventually - at least, to an extent.

Umm - UH60 hasn't actually agreed yet. On the other hand, he hasn't napalmed my house either, so I'll take that as a tentative "yes".  Smile
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:44 am



Quoting AirCop (Reply 51):
Aren't you suppose to be in Cancun and you're posting here. Someone needs to get a life

Evidently you don't read my posts very carefully.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 53):
Irrelevant.

Not when you are making the charges that you are. If you are going to damn this President for not stopping it then you have to damn everyone of them that knew these techniques were being employed wherever and whenever it happened and didn't stop it but you are unwilling to do that.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 53):
This certain President has now publicly stated, with this veto, that he is not against torture.

As has every other President before him. It doesn't take a bill from Congress to make this change.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 54):
Neither did the Northern Alliance in 2001.

The northern alliance was also not the recognized government in 2001. Once the Taliban had been forced to retreat and relinquish free and fair elections were held.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 54):
Actually no, it was used as an interrogation technique.

Sure, they were being "interrogated". Now who's living the fantasy life?

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 54):
And the actual status of the people in question (political prisoners vs unlawful combatants ve whatever) is irrelevant when classifying it as torture or not.

It matters very much so. You are comparing individuals who had taken up arms against our troops to people who may have just pissed off their neighbors who made up stories about them to get them arrested.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 54):
I never saw a formal contract being signed before a war starts.

Ever hear of a little document called the Geneva Convention or any one of a dozen other similar documents?

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 54):
In any way, those rules were designed for confrotantions between governments when most wars are actually fought between people. Since when is fighting and dying for your government more honorable than doing it for your country?

It is generally accepted that if you are fighting for your government you are fighting for your country. It is why most soldiers, if they are just doing their duty, don't get charged with murder.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 54):
So you are admitting here that you would engage in an action that you knew was unlawful and punishable by death? Isn't it a bit hypocritical then to criticize people who undertake that same action?

Nope, because you have to know the difference between right and wrong and these people were committing wrongs for sometime before our forces arrived. Again, they did not belong to an army.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 58):
Perhaps not waterboarding but treatment that most consider torture does seem to have been meted out to most prisoners. Try being shackled in a standing position for 24 hours and see how you feel.

I assume I wouldn't feel to good, but I still don't consider that to be torture.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 58):
Well what else did you think they were going to do with semtex and machine guns?

The original comment was that somehow people in Boston were commanding and directing attacks, not just providing financial support.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 58):
Apparently, it is news to you Rj

As I stated, if you want to believe we just swooped in and gathered up a bunch of peaceful goat herders be my guest.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 63):
I was clearly

Being a smart-ass and are clearly still trying to be. I already answered your leading question.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 66):
Oh no. Seriously, no. I am happy to respect your faith, but that one is hard to let go.

It is not my belief, which is why I stated "before you start it has nothing to do with religion", but that didn't stop you did it? duck 

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 66):
As it turns out, it was not required.

But to some Saddam still should have been transferred to an international court, where of course he would not have been hanged for his crimes.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 79):
Where have you been living ?

See above.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 80):
The problem I have with this -- and we've discussed it before -- you cannot always hold a typical trial for everyone we capture.

 checkmark 
 
LHStarAlliance
Topic Author
Posts: 2096
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:15 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:53 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 84):
I have not even given my opinion on the subject... so I don't appreciate you lecturing me on the evils of American policy.

well but that's the crude reality .. whether you like it or not !
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:55 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 91):
It is not my belief, which is why I stated "before you start it has nothing to do with religion", but that didn't stop you did it?

It never does  Smile Sorry, I misunderstood, I thought it WAS your belief in general, but not applicable in this specific case.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 91):
But to some Saddam still should have been transferred to an international court, where of course he would not have been hanged for his crimes.

I don't see why he should automatically go before an international court - the international court should only have jurisdiction where no obvious competent legal authority exists in the specific affected country to try the case. While one may question the exact "competency" of the legal system in Iraq, clearly that country had jurisdiction over their own former head of state, and received the sentence as laid down by that particular legal system.
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3542
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:55 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 80):
When we move the asset

Asset  ashamed  Is it any wonder that the US can't understand these people, when you refer to them as an "asset". They are members of the human race, admittedly in quite a few cases, they are deluded or quite simply bad. But any nation who claims to lead the democratic world, should be able to set the moral high ground, and at least use a more fitting description.
One wonders if the use of such a phrase is a deliberate way of dehumanising these captives, thus its ok to torture them as they are sub human.
 
LHStarAlliance
Topic Author
Posts: 2096
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:15 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:58 am



Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 94):
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 80):
When we move the asset

Asset ashamed Is it any wonder that the US can't understand these people, when you refer to them as an "asset". They are members of the human race, admittedly in quite a few cases, they are deluded or quite simply bad. But any nation who claims to lead the democratic world, should be able to set the moral high ground, and at least use a more fitting description.
One wonders if the use of such a phrase is a deliberate way of dehumanising these captives, thus its ok to torture them as they are sub human.

yea this is similar to the Nazi regime , they called the elimination of the Jews "Sonderbehandlung" -> Special Treatment . This has really big similarities !

Constantin
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:00 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 92):
well but that's the crude reality .. whether you like it or not !

If this is going to be the quality of your future posts, do us all a favor, and just sit on the side-lines and watch.

-UH60
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:01 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 95):
This has really big similarities !

Don't be silly. They're not gassing Iraqi's by the millions. While some of the individual specific euphemisms have similiarities, let's not get carried away.
 
LHStarAlliance
Topic Author
Posts: 2096
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:15 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:05 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 97):
Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 95):
This has really big similarities !

Don't be silly. They're not gassing Iraqi's by the millions. While some of the individual specific euphemisms have similiarities, let's not get carried away.

I've never said that Americans are treating Iraqies like the Nazis did with the Jews ! This is the last thing I'd say !

What I say is that America is treating the Terrosist which have been captured very badly and naming them "Asset" they are being "dehumanised" by calling them like this .

Please read the Post of Bongodog1964 I've the same opinion .

Constantin
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:08 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 98):
I've never said that Americans are treating Iraqies like the Nazis did with the Jews ! This is the last thing I'd say !

What I say is that America is treating the Terrosist which have been captured very badly and naming them "Asset" they are being "dehumanised" by calling them like this .

Please read the Post of Bongodog1964 I've the same opinion .

Then you need to phrase your posts more precisely. This is clearly a sensitive subject, and throwing the "Nazi" card into the mix is not helpful.

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