Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:08 pm



Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 94):

Asset ashamed Is it any wonder that the US can't understand these people, when you refer to them as an "asset". They are members of the human race, admittedly in quite a few cases, they are deluded or quite simply bad. But any nation who claims to lead the democratic world, should be able to set the moral high ground, and at least use a more fitting description.
One wonders if the use of such a phrase is a deliberate way of dehumanising these captives, thus its ok to torture them as they are sub human.

First, see reply #89, final paragraph, for my stance on torture.

Second, I'm in the military so my lexicon often includes "military-ese" terms and phrases. In your lack of experience with such an environment, you may find this type of language as "cold" and "detached"... but much of our terms - for referring to both friendly and enemy - are of this nature. Indeed... emotion and attachment are often purposely kept to a minimum. The historical context for this is well documented and would warrant a separate thread for discussion.

But to suggest that I don't care about them, is well, totally baseless. Anyone who knows me on this website can attest to that fact.

-UH60
 
LHStarAlliance
Topic Author
Posts: 2096
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:15 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:09 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 99):
Then you need to phrase your posts more precisely. This is clearly a sensitive subject, and throwing the "Nazi" card into the mix is not helpful.

Yea I should have been more clear ..
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14434
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:14 pm



Quoting Flighty (Reply 5):
With any luck, Osama Bin Laden and Bush will have cells right next to each other in the bowels of the Hague. They are the same scum in my book.

No No, Osama can't be in a cell. He has to be available to have "talks" with Obama so they can discuss our differences.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 5):
Just because a man wears a suit, has a Harvard MBA and a rich daddy doesn't mean he's not a war criminal. He still is.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 38):
And what's funny, is that many of those on here who are always crowing that "America is better than the rest of the world", are some of the same ones who support stooping to the level of the very terrorists we are fighting.

You don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 44):
Was Bush President back in 1979, when our embassy in Iran was stormed and hostages held for 444 days?
Was Bush President back in 1983, when our Marines were killed in Lebannon?
Was Bush President back in 1985 when TWA 847 was hijacked?
Was Bush President back in 1988 when Pan Am 103 was bombed?
Was Bush President back in 1993 when the Twin Towers were first bombed?
Was Bush President back in 1995 when the Khubar Towers were bombed?
Was Bush President back in 1998 when our embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed?
Was Bush President back in 2000 when the USS Cole was bombed?

You forgot some, like how the Isreali Olympic team was killed in 72'. Doesn't matter the lefties here will find some way to blame Bush for that too.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:19 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 100):
I'm in the military so my lexicon often includes "military-ese" terms and phrases. In your lack of experience with such an environment, you may find this type of language as "cold" and "detached"... but much of our terms - for referring to both friendly and enemy - are of this nature. Indeed... emotion and attachment are often purposely kept to a minimum. The historical context for this is well documented and would warrant a separate thread for discussion.

Being "on the ground" as it were, do you think that this kind of emotional detachment and distance from the local populace is perhaps not conducive to better understanding ? Would a more human-to-human engagement not be more helpful in getting the locals to be more accepting of the situation ? I just ask because I've read that the British method of being more "approachable" was more successful, at least in the early days of the occupation. Hearts and minds, style of thing.
 
flynavy
Posts: 2179
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:19 pm



Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 94):
Asset

Correct. An asset. An asset that - more likely than not - has information that could possibly save American, Iraqi and - yes - British lives.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:23 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 104):
Correct. An asset.

But still, a human being, with a heart and a mind. And issues, clearly.
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:31 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 103):
Would a more human-to-human engagement not be more helpful in getting the locals to be more accepting of the situation ? I just ask because I've read that the British method of being more "approachable" was more successful, at least in the early days of the occupation. Hearts and minds, style of thing.

We do both.

In combat situations, and in situations of a job-related nature, we stress professionalism and detachment. When I CASEVAC'ed (evacuated a wounded soldier) a good friend of mine... on the radio I referred to my friend James as the "critical causality" not "James". Often when soldiers forget their military bearing and act on a familiar basis, and not a professional basis, they make decisions based on emotion and not training.

I know it sounds terribly cold... but it's vitally important in these circumstances, and it's hard for me to properly explain why to people who haven't been there.

But, at the same time, we definitely also encourage soldiers to interact on a personal level with the local population. My first time in Iraq, my unit sponsored a local orphanage and we made regular visits to the children. Others do community service projects, local outreach, sport events, etc...

What has really made the difference lately is the dramatic drop in insurgent activity. Areas that a year ago, were too dangerous to get out of an up-armored HMMWV, are now safe enough to walk around and interact with the locals. In fact, the whole thinking behind General Patreaus's new surge strategy was to eliminate the SOP of going out on patrols from big bases... and spreading the forces out into the population and living amongst them. So instead of living on a base with thousands of other soldiers, you may be living in a building with Iraqis and only have a handful of fellow soldiers. This allows you to make close and personal connections with locals and they know you, and you know them. The benefits of this type of operation is already apparent.

-UH60
 
flynavy
Posts: 2179
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:36 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 105):
But still, a human being, with a heart and a mind. And issues, clearly.

A human with a mind and issues, yes. That isn't in dispute.

But a heart? Let's not get carried away...
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:36 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 89):
9 out of 10 times, we capture a "small fish" - bring him to where trained interrogators are - question him for useful information, and then release him. No water boarding, no sleep deprivation, no extended holding periods, and certainly no torture, ever occurs.

Ahhg, you're ruining their perception. It's like take out. They get lined up, some get the #10 others get the #2. wink  Seriously though you are completely correct in your opinion that only a select few get singled out for any sort of this kind of treatment and then only after other techniques have failed. I would also assume that anyone being water boarded has details of information that the interrogators already know the basics about but need to complete the picture. To water board just to water board would be torture.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 93):
I don't see why he should automatically go before an international court


Then it is my turn to apologize, I saw that as where you were heading. Sorry honey kiss  We'll never win that new washer and dryer combo on the Newlywed Game at this rate!  laughing 
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:44 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 106):
In combat situations, and in situations of a job-related nature, we stress professionalism and detachment. When I CASEVAC'ed (evacuated a wounded soldier) a good friend of mine... on the radio I referred to my friend James as the "critical causality" not "James". Often when soldiers forget their military bearing and act on a familiar basis, and not a professional basis, they make decisions based on emotion and not training.

I know it sounds terribly cold... but it's vitally important in these circumstances, and it's hard for me to properly explain why to people who haven't been there.

That type of professional detachment does make perfect sense, because you have a job to accomplish after all. It's a fine line, I guess. Perhaps that level of detachment from your own colleagues and allies is necessary, but could be applied with more sensitivity to the locals - I don't know how possible that would be. To you, maybe they are just another part of the job, but to them, you're in their country and part of their lives, lives which have been literally ripped apart in the last few years - they need to see a human face to "un-demonise" you, if that's a word.

I'm glad to hear about the deployment into the local community, I really hope that yields results. For better or worse, US forces are present in Iraq, and any action or practise that can reduce the tension and allow each to rub along with the other has got to be encouraged.
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:46 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 108):
I would also assume that anyone being water boarded has details of information that the interrogators already know the basics about but need to complete the picture. To water board just to water board would be torture.

Well personally, I'm against it. Without getting into classified details - anyone who has been to SERE school will tell you that torture is not an effective means of information extraction. There are far better techniques that produce far more reliable pieces of information.

Not to mention the fact that, as an American soldier, I like to think of myself as being infinite levels above the insurgents and terrorists... so when we have to resort to their level of tactics? It's wrong.

-----------------------

But also... we simply don't need to "torture" for the vast majority of them!! Often the case is that they're willing to spill their guts at the drop of a hat. It doesn't take much to get the average Iraqi to start talking.... but even then "reliable" information is difficult to get.

The truth is, these terrorist/insurgent groups heavily rely on uneducated people. These people don't know 2+2, let alone what their local command and communication structure is!

-UH60
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:50 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 91):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 63):
I was clearly

Being a smart-ass and are clearly still trying to be. I already answered your leading question.

You were evading my question, and now apparently getting personal for the same purpose.

Won't work - sorry!

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 108):
Seriously though you are completely correct in your opinion that only a select few get singled out for any sort of this kind of treatment and then only after other techniques have failed. I would also assume that anyone being water boarded has details of information that the interrogators already know the basics about but need to complete the picture. To water board just to water board would be torture.

That is exactly the "24" mindset I was referring to above!

Thank you for a particularly vivid illustration.

By your post above, any and all tortures are permitted if you just "need" something badly enough, with no regard to morality or the inconvenient detail of the person possibly being innocent.

I rest my case.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:53 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 110):
Well personally, I'm against it. Without getting into classified details - anyone who has been to SERE school will tell you that torture is not an effective means of information extraction. There are far better techniques that produce far more reliable pieces of information.

 checkmark 

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 110):
Not to mention the fact that, as an American soldier, I like to think of myself as being infinite levels above the insurgents and terrorists... so when we have to resort to their level of tactics? It's wrong.

 checkmark 
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:54 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 108):
Then it is my turn to apologize, I saw that as where you were heading. Sorry honey We'll never win that new washer and dryer combo on the Newlywed Game at this rate!

I'm going home to Mother !  cry 

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 108):
To water board just to water board would be torture.

Well there's a concession ! I hereby nominate you for the Montgomery Burns Humanitarian of the Year Award.

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 107):
But a heart? Let's not get carried away...

Everybody's human, even the bad ones. As Sherlock Holmes says "the psychology of the individual is the key"
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:56 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 110):
Well personally, I'm against it.

Agreed, if it is done simply to inflict pain and suffering it is torture. I would not condone that.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 110):
There are far better techniques that produce far more reliable pieces of information.

Which is why I have stated that for the vast majority those techniques are better utilized. But if you have the basic plan, and you have the fish that has the details, and if normal techniques are not producing the details, I will not take water boarding off the table.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 110):
so when we have to resort to their level of tactics? It's wrong.

As I'm sure you would know better than I, the terrorists levels go far below ours. We, hopefully, are not cutting off body parts or inserting surgical tools, using hot metal, or hooking people up to car batteries.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 110):
But also... we simply don't need to "torture" for the vast majority of them!!

We shouldn't be "torturing" any of them. That goes back to the definition of torture of which there is obviously a huge disagreement about just in this forum alone.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 110):
The truth is, these terrorist/insurgent groups heavily rely on uneducated people.

To which water boarding would be entirely useless. I trust our intelligence people are smart enough to recognize that simple piece of logic.
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:12 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 111):
That is exactly the "24" mindset I was referring to above!

In the show 24 people are drugged and beaten as a first option when the characters have no real clue as to what information they may or may not have. I trust that our interrogators don't work that way. You are assuming that they do.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 111):
By your post above, any and all tortures are permitted if you just "need" something badly enough, with no regard to morality or the inconvenient detail of the person possibly being innocent.

Again, you have to define torture. Your definition as described in various posts above leaves nothing but "Where were you on the night of" sans lights or even a dull gray room. If the answer is "nowhere" the door should immediately be thrown open and the suspect released. Not how the real world works but a view from a completely protected one would look that way.
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:15 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 114):

Agreed, if it is done simply to inflict pain and suffering it is torture. I would not condone that.

Well I am against water boarding, across the board.

I don't find the logic in the belief that compassion and humanitarianism is a sign of "weakness"... in fact I find it a sign of magnanimity and grace.

-UH60
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:17 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 116):
I don't find the logic in the belief that compassion and humanitarianism is a sign of "weakness"... in fact I find it a sign of magnanimity and grace.

Nicely put.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:37 pm



Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 79):
We hear now of the fanaticism of the Muslim extremists; the blind devotion to the IRA extremism was little different, and the US authorities, did virtually nothing to cut off their source of funds.

The main current example of this seems to support of Tamil Tigers. And those guys are definitely not organizing a knitting circle.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 80):
Rules regarding "hooding" while in captivity have dramatically changed in the past few years, and I think for the better. But in regards to those first 24hrs -- when we're moving them to the holding centers and they're not in a secure environment - hooding is important.

I think most observers sympathise with the problems UH60 so graphically described of the case where someone shot at him, the concerns start to arise when aside from hooding, the treatment of the prisoners is unduly rough.

An analogy is that allied airmen were very anxious to be taken prisoner by the Luftwaffe and not the local civilians as they were not always treated correctly except by the Luftwaffe - and there were report of problems with some German aviators suffered in the UK too.

The RAF considered that subtle methods of interrogation were far more effective than forcible ones. And many of the prisoners were at least as "difficult" as the current crop of Islamic prisoners.

A basic rule UH60 would be to treat prisoners as you would hope to be treated if taken prisoner and not as you fear (however reasonable that fear) you would be treated. If both sides are playing rough - or worse - it is hard to see how anything will improve. If at least one side has high standards, then there is hope that the other will lose too much face by behaving badly. (No, not behaving like animals as animals do not behave like that - let us strive for accuracy in these discussions and not hyperbole, especially inaccurate hyperbole.)
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:06 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 87):
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 80):
I challenge you, or any other person without a clearance, to report these locations. Because not even the personnel working on those FOBs/bases often know what's happening.

I probably can't, but I bet it's not much of a secret in Iraq, not really. People aren't stupid.

If their intell was really good, finding a dead spot in terms of information would be a give-away that something important was going on in that area. So completely eliminating access should not work if they have half a brain, which bring me to:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 110):
The truth is, these terrorist/insurgent groups heavily rely on uneducated people. These people don't know 2+2, let alone what their local command and communication structure is!

It seems to be the case for many of them, not the top planners, but for the foot soldiers at least. Arguably, that has been a weakness in the US treatment. So Hicks for example was treated as a vicious master criminal - or worse according to Bush, Chaney and Howard - when by and large he was a young and rather pathetic idiot. Whatever Hicks is, he is not the master bogey man. Trying to make him out to be such a master criminal just reduces the chances of anything else being believed. The old cry wolf story. Corny, but an appropriate warning not to cry wolf when you know it barely ranks to be called a lamb.

Having some of them explain themselves on TV could have been quite useful. Seeing some of them looking dumb in front of the evil eye of a camera might be more useful that distant pictures of helpless orange figures being mistreated on trolleys.

Odd, because the US is usually pretty good at propaganda. But the Islamists seems to have caused some sort of collective brain fuse in the US administration. If OBL did plan the WTC, he probably did not expect it to collapse in the fires, just severe damage. But much more than that, not in his wildest dreams could he have imagined the US would suffer so many subsequent self inflicted wounds.
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:17 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 116):
I don't find the logic in the belief that compassion and humanitarianism is a sign of "weakness"... in fact I find it a sign of magnanimity and grace.

I don't see it as a sign of weakness either, but some people don't respond to that kind of inducement. Some people are just hard for whatever reason and being nice is not going to get you what you might want or need. As in your statement that all prisoners can't be given the same kind of trial, not all prisoners can be interrogated the same way with the same results. To say that you will unilaterally give up some methods of interrogation gives you nothing and your enemies everything. All you have to say is "we won't bomb mosques" and where do they concentrate their supplies?
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:32 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 120):
To say that you will unilaterally give up some methods of interrogation gives you nothing and your enemies everything.

Yet we already do unilaterally give up a lot of techniques. We don't maim, we don't kill close family/friends to induce talking, we don't inflict unbearable pain or slow death.... we already make a conscious decision not to use a multitude of historical methods of interrogation. All because we find them unbecoming, uncivilized, and beneath us.

The difference you're apparently making is that water boarding is not torture. Because if you did believe it was torture - but a necessary evil to extract information from stubborn people - then what about the people who still refuse to give up information after being water boarded? Can we resort to even more drastic measures? Can we cut off their limbs?

And if you don't believe it is torture, than can we do it to Americans? Say a person who will not give up the location of a victim they kidnapped, and the victim will surely die without the person telling us where they are?

Because I think it's a disgusting tactic, and it's terribly beneath us to utilize. I think it smacks of barbarity and flies in the face of the uniquely strong sense of compassion so many Americans have.

-UH60
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:40 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 121):
Because I think it's a disgusting tactic, and it's terribly beneath us to utilize. I think it smacks of barbarity and flies in the face of the uniquely strong sense of compassion so many Americans have.

For you to be where you are, see the things you've seen and experienced what you have, and still say that, says a great deal about your professionalism and humanity. That deserves profound respect, especially from those back home who might deplore your unwillingness to stoop to these measures.
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:39 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:36 pm

I don't think waterboarding was the issue here for vetoing this bill, I leaning towards executive powers, this president from day 1 didn't want Congress to pass laws that infringe on his perceived right to be the decider. A prime example of this is right now (according to various press reports based on leaks) the administration is working on a long term security agreement with the Iraqi government that will deepen the America's commitment to Iraqi. Just another case where the administration is trying to by-pass the constitution, as all treaties with other governments are supposed to be ratified by the Senate.
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:50 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 91):
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 54):
Neither did the Northern Alliance in 2001.

The northern alliance was also not the recognized government in 2001. Once the Taliban had been forced to retreat and relinquish free and fair elections were held.

Eh, that was precisely my point (that the Northern Alliance was no legitimate government), but thanks for reinforcing it anyway...

Now, to call the elections in Afghanistan "free and fair" when most of the country is still outside of the control of Kabul is another issue.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 91):
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 54):
Actually no, it was used as an interrogation technique.

Sure, they were being "interrogated". Now who's living the fantasy life?

Yes, the people I was referring to (the Portuguese political prisoners waterboarded and sleep-deprived by PIDE) were being interrogated (unless, of course, you have more insight than I do into the workings of Portugal pre-1974).

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 91):
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 54):
And the actual status of the people in question (political prisoners vs unlawful combatants ve whatever) is irrelevant when classifying it as torture or not.

It matters very much so. You are comparing individuals who had taken up arms against our troops to people who may have just pissed off their neighbors who made up stories about them to get them arrested.

So when defining whether a certain technique is torture or not you are going to define first who it is applied to? Will there be a field manual "uretral insertion is acceptable for X, Y and Z and not acceptable for A, B and C"?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 91):
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 54):
So you are admitting here that you would engage in an action that you knew was unlawful and punishable by death? Isn't it a bit hypocritical then to criticize people who undertake that same action?

Nope, because you have to know the difference between right and wrong and these people were committing wrongs for sometime before our forces arrived. Again, they did not belong to an army.

Neither did George Washington (you can claim all you want about the "Continental Army", there was in fact no legitimate, recognized government he was working under). Was he wrong?
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:52 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 124):
Neither did George Washington (you can claim all you want about the "Continental Army", there was in fact no legitimate, recognized government he was working under). Was he wrong?

There is one small but crucial difference. Washington won.

 Smile
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:34 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 114):
Agreed, if it is done simply to inflict pain and suffering it is torture. I would not condone that.

Actually, torture is defined by both, the Red Cross and the United Nations, as severe physical or mental pain, that is inflicted on a person to obtain information or a confession.
Water-boarding for the sake of water-boarding could therefore be described as abuse or whatever but doesn't qualify as torture, because torture needs a purpose other than to simply harm people.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 120):
I don't see it as a sign of weakness either, but some people don't respond to that kind of inducement. Some people are just hard for whatever reason and being nice is not going to get you what you might want or need.

If we fail to gain information we desperately need - we fail. And have to cope with that.

I know I'm not in a position to really do so, not by a long shot, but I would suggest Americans not to mold extremes like "how to cope with terrorists that are immune to normal interrogation practices" into law. If you do, those extremes will cease to be extremes and become more normal. I think it would be better to keep those practices prohibited, without exception, and if need be (really REALLY - for whatever reason) to intentionally break the law, then bring the offence to justice and to declare it an act of self-defence. It would then be up to the court to decide how to cope with the situation.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:27 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 121):
Quoting RJdxer (Reply 120):
To say that you will unilaterally give up some methods of interrogation gives you nothing and your enemies everything.

Yet we already do unilaterally give up a lot of techniques. We don't maim, we don't kill close family/friends to induce talking, we don't inflict unbearable pain or slow death.... we already make a conscious decision not to use a multitude of historical methods of interrogation. All because we find them unbecoming, uncivilized, and beneath us.

The difference you're apparently making is that water boarding is not torture. Because if you did believe it was torture - but a necessary evil to extract information from stubborn people - then what about the people who still refuse to give up information after being water boarded? Can we resort to even more drastic measures? Can we cut off their limbs?

And if you don't believe it is torture, than can we do it to Americans? Say a person who will not give up the location of a victim they kidnapped, and the victim will surely die without the person telling us where they are?

Because I think it's a disgusting tactic, and it's terribly beneath us to utilize. I think it smacks of barbarity and flies in the face of the uniquely strong sense of compassion so many Americans have.

This from someone who HAS served on the front lines in Iraq. Fought the war, against terrorists. And he's against it.

UH60, if I could put you on my RR twice, I would. You're a wise young man, in my mind, and a credit to your family, your faith and your nation. There is simply no need for the supposed greatest, freest nation in the world, to stoop to this barbarism simply out of paranoia and fear-and that is what drives this policy.

It is almost physically devistating to me to hear a President of the United States publically state he's for torture, simply because HE fears terrorism. It's astounding. And, no, RJdxer, other presidents have NOT done that, because the U.S. military itself has not condoned this action for quite a while.

It's a dark day in our history. Those of you who rationalize this can't see that, simply because YOU fear terrorism and are obsessed with it. Well, the American people, as a whole, are tired of being made to fear by this President and his hard-core supporters. It doesn't work anymore, and will only further sully his reputation, and that of those who support torturing people, like yourselves.

When you get over your fear and paranoia, join the human race. Until then, your fear and paranoia is your problem.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23963
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:14 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 25):
We got rid of Saddam, and you are saying a free and fairly elected government with a Constitution is not a suitable replacement?

The people of Iraq were free to vote for any party they wanted. They faced fines and prison if they voted for the opposition, but they could still vote for anyone they wanted. Under the Saddam constitution, Iraqi citizens were able to worship as they pleased be it Islam, Christianity, Jew, or whatever. Under the current constitution, the religion is set by the government: Islam. Under Saddam, everyone had an education. Right now, schools are open, but in bombed out buildings. Even some women are not allowed an education per Islamic law. Is that better?

Never mind the fact that Saddam had NOTHING at all to do with Sept. 11. Never mind the fact that Saddam did not have stockpiles of chemical weapons. Never mind the fact that the chemecal weapons he did have were either destroyed, used against his own people, or used in the war with Iran.

I seem to recall back before Bush was in office, Oliver North and the Clinton Administration BOTH wanted to overthrow the Taliban in Afgainstan and capture Osama bin Laden. Did that intel come from torture? I believe it came from good hard work and using FISA laws.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26856
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:18 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
Water-boarding is not "torture"

For those of you that believe this, I have a question for you. Do you think if police used such a technique to obtain a confession from someone that it would hold up in court? Not a chance, and those same officers would be thrown in prison. Food for thought.
 
FlyDeltaJets87
Posts: 4479
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:51 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:31 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 59):
Who in the HELL do you think you are? You haven't set one FOOT on the sands of Iraq nor sailed one inch of the Persian Gulf.

WHEN and IF you ever do so, only THEN could you even THINK about making that kind of statement, much less speaking for all of "us."

Chris, clam down. What exactly are you  redflag ing? Let me quote for you what I was responding to, because I think I know where you're trying to go with this and it's not where I was. So before I blow a gasket, let me see if we can clear this up and make sure we're on the same page:

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 44):
Quoting Flighty (Reply 42):
We were terrorists and they were not. It is that simple.

We appreciate the support. *sarcasm*

Signed,
The US Armed Forces
(yea, that includes me)

Now, I don't know about you, but I don't appreciate being called a "terrorist". I would like to think most if not all of the members of the US Armed Forces don't like being called "terrorists" either, hence why I'd like to think I can put "signed by" there. My response was not to Flighty's disagreement with the war. While I know the support for the war is a higher percentage within the military than with the civilian population, I know we have those serving that disagree with it.
But I'm sorry. I will not stand for my family and friends (who have served over there) being called "terrorists", especially by our own citizens.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 60):
I don't know about you, but for me a friend is someone who stops me from doing stupid things.

I'm not convinced Iraq was a stupid thing to do. You're not going to change that opinion and I'm not going to change your's so you can save your response of "yes it is". France just better not be shocked if one day they need our support and aren't exactly too thrilled to go off and give it to them.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 60):
I hate to say this, but Africa is a lost continent, who has seen the same abject misery and violence despite all the money and effort put into it. The only way it is ever going to stand up straight is for it to be ignored for the international community for a long time, at least enough to get it's house in order. The problem with the UN is that everybody (i.e. it's member states) seems to think it should get involved in Africa, when it's precisely the opposite.

By that account, would it be fair to kick all the African states that you want to ignore from now out of the UN?

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 65):
But what saddens me more is that my country has been hijacked for the last 6 years by a bunch of xenophobic "moral" neocons. But thankfully, based on the sheer number of people voting for "change" versus the number of people voting for a GOP candidate, the Republicans have already lost the election.

Depends on who the Dems nominate. Saw on the news last night the projected Electoral Maps of "McCain versus Obama" and "McCain versus Clinton".
Rough Numbers (Yes, I know they don't add up to the exact 538, these figures are just what I remember from the story last night)
McCain vs. Obama:
McCain: 170
Obama: 250
Toss Up: 120
In this scenario, Obama probably wins.

McCain vs. Clinton
McCain: 280
Clinton: 180
Toss Up: 80
In this scenario, 280 is enough to win the election even if McCain were to lose the rest of the toss-up votes.
If the Dems put up an Obama/Clinton ticket, they probably win the election in a landslide.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 56):
Both nations have stood by each other throughout the history of the U.S. France helped us gain our independence; we helped them regain theirs.

Shortly after we gained our independence, the French citizens overthrew the government that helped us gain our independce. In fact, money and soldiers being spent to help us obtain our independence which led to the neglecting of the citizens of France by the monarchy was part of the reason for that revolution. Just to point out the facts in history there.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 128):
They faced fines and prison if they voted for the opposition, but they could still vote for anyone they wanted.

 rotfl 
The fact that you're trying to justify that as "voting" is well, pathetic.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26856
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:36 pm



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 130):

But I'm sorry. I will not stand for my family and friends (who have served over there) being called "terrorists", especially by our own citizens.

I don't belong to you, and neither do my opinions of you or your actions. I personally don't think all, or even most soldiers are terrorists. I think they are doing their job, like any other person. Those who waterboard and practice other types of torture, however, are just as despicable as those who blow themselves up, if not moreso in that they have actual power.
 
FlyDeltaJets87
Posts: 4479
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:51 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:30 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 131):
I personally don't think all, or even most soldiers are terrorists. I think they are doing their job, like any other person.

Then why respond to me and not Flighty? Flighty said we are the terrorists, and included a "Simple as That" after it. "We" is all encompassing, but "we" are not all part of what you are saying is the problem. There will always be bad apples in the bunch who abuse their power and break regulations. And you know what? We have the UCMJ to take care of those individuals who give "us" a bad representation. So I ask you to explain why you're going after me and not him.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 131):
I don't belong to you, and neither do my opinions of you or your actions

Yea, you're entitled to your opinion. Just as I'm entitled to call your opinion BS if I see it that way.

[Edited 2008-03-09 12:31:42]
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23963
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:48 pm



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 130):
The fact that you're trying to justify that as "voting" is well, pathetic

But things were better off with Saddam in power even with his forcing people to vote for him and his party. With the Northern No-Fly Zone partly protecting the Kurds and the Southern No-Fly Zone partly protecting the Shia and the Bush Administration not throwing trillions of dollars at Iraq instead of the United States, what is the upside of invading and occupying Iraq?

Back on topic: It has been proven that treat POWs the way you would want to be treated and you will get better intel. I know I would say anything to keep from getting tortured... Oops... I mean waterboarded...
 
N1120A
Posts: 26856
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:52 pm



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 132):

Then why respond to me

Because yours was the more recent, and hence relevant, post.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 132):

Yea, you're entitled to your opinion.

Again, I don't belong to you. It appears to be your opinion that I do.
 
FlyDeltaJets87
Posts: 4479
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:51 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:25 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 134):
Because yours was the more recent, and hence relevant, post.

What does that have to do with not responding to Flighty's point? Is there some rule in this forum about only responding to the most recent post on a topic that I'm not aware of? I think your reason for ignoring him and responding to me instead is you simply don't want to call out someone who overall is sharing the same viewpoint as you, whether you do it knowingly or not. Heck, you've only responded to Flight indirectly by responding to my post. Why not just simply quote Flighty and say "You're wrong pal" if that's the way you really feel?

Also, I find it ironic in Reply 129, you'll go back 127 posts to respond to something (and it's not like KC135 was even responding to you and it had just been a while to respond in this thread) and then you'll try to tell me about "more recent, and hence relevant, post." Surely in those 127 posts, there was a posts that was on the same subject as KC135's post.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 133):
But things were better off with Saddam in power even with his forcing people to vote for him and his party.

Well of course things are going to get "worse" while a war is going on. You could make the same argument that we were "better off" while under colonial rule than we were while waging war with Great Britain. It took our own country quite a while to settle down and get things under control following the surrender of the British too, several decades, a couple of governments, several rebellions, and one all-out Civil War in fact.

[Edited 2008-03-09 13:26:48]
 
N1120A
Posts: 26856
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:27 pm



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 135):
Why not just simply quote Flighty and say "You're wrong pal" if that's the way you really feel?

Because he wasn't completely wrong. Pal.
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:25 pm



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 130):
Shortly after we gained our independence, the French citizens overthrew the government that helped us gain our independce. In fact, money and soldiers being spent to help us obtain our independence which led to the neglecting of the citizens of France by the monarchy was part of the reason for that revolution. Just to point out the facts in history there.

So you are stating that because the French people chose to overthrow a tyrannical regime that was opressing them it is a sign that they do not support the U.S.? What did you expect them to do, continue living in poverty and degradation just because the king had actually helped you?
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:39 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 121):
Yet we already do unilaterally give up a lot of techniques. We don't maim, we don't kill close family/friends to induce talking, we don't inflict unbearable pain or slow death.... we already make a conscious decision not to use a multitude of historical methods of interrogation. All because we find them unbecoming, uncivilized, and beneath us.

But you have to draw a line somewhere because if you don't you are asking for failure from the get go. Will you fly past bingo? Even if there is a troop that will die if don't go an extra 5 minutes?

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 121):
Can we resort to even more drastic measures? Can we cut off their limbs?

No and I have already said so.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 121):
And if you don't believe it is torture, than can we do it to Americans? Say a person who will not give up the location of a victim they kidnapped, and the victim will surely die without the person telling us where they are?

No and you have already answered that question for me.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 89):
I agree. But I do think that some people are naive to believe we can hold American style trials for every person we capture.



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 121):
I think it smacks of barbarity and flies in the face of the uniquely strong sense of compassion so many Americans have.

Then you have to explain how fair it is for United States Air Force bombers to drop dumb bombs over Kosovo from high altitude as if it were still WW2. Or how you condone an Apache attack helicopter rolling in firing it's M230 in an urban situation where there is no way to account for where every round goes. At least in the water boarding scenario we should know who we are dealing with and what we are after. Ricochets don't ask questions and I know that from personal experience. To me that is more barbaric and yet under the ROE it's legal so I don't question it.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 122):
That deserves profound respect, especially from those back home who might deplore your unwillingness to stoop to these measures.

Yes, he deserves all the respect for what he is doing, but he is a helicopter pilot, as such his perspective, while perhaps more informed, is still as novice as yours or mine as to what really goes on.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 123):
I leaning towards executive powers, this president from day 1 didn't want Congress to pass laws that infringe on his perceived right to be the decider.

Every President has had to protect Executive power from Congress. Given free reign Congress would make the Presidency into a figure head position.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 124):
Now, to call the elections in Afghanistan "free and fair" when most of the country is still outside of the control of Kabul is another issue.

Are you going to quote the same think tank as a source as Air Cop did?

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 124):
Yes, the people I was referring to (the Portuguese political prisoners waterboarded and sleep-deprived by PIDE) were being interrogated

No, they were being tortured. They could not have any information that could have been in any way damaging to the government.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 124):
So when defining whether a certain technique is torture or not you are going to define first who it is applied to?

There had better be a definition and a policy in place as to what happens when.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 124):
Will there be a field manual "uretral insertion is acceptable for X, Y and Z and not acceptable for A, B and C"?

Most likely there already is, the Army is not the only intelligence gathering organ we have.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 124):
Neither did George Washington (you can claim all you want about the "Continental Army", there was in fact no legitimate, recognized government he was working under). Was he wrong?



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 125):
There is one small but crucial difference. Washington won.

 checkmark 

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 126):
Actually, torture is defined by both, the Red Cross and the United Nations, as severe physical or mental pain, that is inflicted on a person to obtain information or a confession.
Water-boarding for the sake of water-boarding could therefore be described as abuse or whatever but doesn't qualify as torture, because torture needs a purpose other than to simply harm people.

Then that is a whacked definition. What would you call inflicting pain just to inflict pain?

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 126):
If we fail to gain information we desperately need - we fail. And have to cope with that.

Within the boundaries we are speaking that is unacceptable.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 127):
This from someone who HAS served on the front lines in Iraq. Fought the war, against terrorists. And he's against it.

Again, not taking anything away from his service to the country, let me ask you Falcon, are you a pilot? Do you think a pilot can come down and work the gate? Reaccommodate misconnecting passengers? Assign non revs seats? Then why do you think a helicopter pilot has infinite knowledge on how, why, or when a person is or needs to be interrogated?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 127):
It is almost physically devistating to me to hear a President of the United States publically state he's for torture

Again, define torture.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 127):
And, no, RJdxer, other presidents have NOT done that, because the U.S. military itself has not condoned this action for quite a while.

As stated above, there are a number of other intelligence gathering organs of the United States government. Several of them are not bound strictly by the Geneva Conventions. That the military does not do it does not mean it is wrong.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 128):
I believe it came from good hard work and using FISA laws.

Believe what you wish, most of the things that happen we never hear about and that's the way it should be.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 129):
For those of you that believe this, I have a question for you. Do you think if police used such a technique to obtain a confession from someone that it would hold up in court? Not a chance, and those same officers would be thrown in prison. Food for thought.

I wish life were as simple as you try and make it out to be. Let me ask you, if you are in a foreign country, do you still expect to get a phone call after you've been arrested?
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:44 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 138):
Yes, he deserves all the respect for what he is doing, but he is a helicopter pilot, as such his perspective, while perhaps more informed, is still as novice as yours or mine as to what really goes on.

I think he has a lot better idea of what goes on than either you or I. He, at least, has actually been there.
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:51 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 139):
He, at least, has actually been there.

I work in the socc of my airline, there is plenty that goes on on a day to day basis that I don't hear about for a variety of reasons. I would imagine that the same is true in his situation. I acknowledged that he has been there and that he is better informed of the general situation. Specific situations such as what occurs at Gitmo, or in Pakistan? That would be a different ball of wax wouldn't you agree?
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:54 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 140):
Specific situations such as what occurs at Gitmo, or in Pakistan? That would be a different ball of wax wouldn't you agree?

Far be it from me to speak on UH60's behalf, but he seems in each of his posts to refer specifically to the situation in Iraq. I don't recall any post of his referring authoritatively to practises in Pakistan or Guantanamo. Feel free to contradict, of course. I know you will  Smile
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:56 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 141):
Feel free to contradict, of course. I know you will

Not on this point I won't. I just bring up the question.
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:10 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 138):
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 124):
Yes, the people I was referring to (the Portuguese political prisoners waterboarded and sleep-deprived by PIDE) were being interrogated

No, they were being tortured. They could not have any information that could have been in any way damaging to the government.

Oh they couldn't, could they? Are the Portuguese too inept to plot against their own government, there is no way people could be preparing to overthrow it?
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:21 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 143):
Oh they couldn't, could they? Are the Portuguese too inept to plot against their own government, there is no way people could be preparing to overthrow it?

Do you believe they had a plot going? Do you think it had a chance of succeeding? To me it seems more like political repression at its worst.
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:31 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 144):
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 143):
Oh they couldn't, could they? Are the Portuguese too inept to plot against their own government, there is no way people could be preparing to overthrow it?

Do you believe they had a plot going? Do you think it had a chance of succeeding? To me it seems more like political repression at its worst.

Given the fact that the dictatorship was eventually overthrown by, you guessed it, a plot I believe it is highly likely that, indeed, there were multiple plots being prepared at one point or another. Not to mention the fact that I had an uncle imprisoned and tortured (I am sorry, "interrogated" - after all sleep deprivation is not a torture, right?) because a bomb to kill the ruling dictator was hidden in his shop (I would consider that to be a plot, as well - he wasn't involved, though, just got caught in the middle).
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:54 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 145):
after all sleep deprivation is not a torture, right?)

I was deprived of lots of sleep in the military under several different sets of circumstances, no I don't consider that to be torture. It is very uncomfortable and not something I would choose to do on my own but I am not permantly scarred by it either. BTW as I read it the dictatorship was overthrown by the military, not a bunch of civilians. So if civilians were imprisoned and water boarded, then they were tortured. Apples to apples. I'm sorry your uncle went through that but it is also an entirely different situation than the people we may subject to water boarding are in.
 
FlyDeltaJets87
Posts: 4479
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:51 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:03 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 137):
So you are stating that because the French people chose to overthrow a tyrannical regime that was opressing them it is a sign that they do not support the U.S.? What did you expect them to do, continue living in poverty and degradation just because the king had actually helped you?

My point is what I already stated- the French government that helped us obtain our independence ceased to exist shortly after we gined our's. The French citizens overthrew the monarchy that gave us support during our Revolution, and the fact is that the monarchy supporting our revolution was one of the many causes leading to their own revolution. I can't imagine the French citizens were overly thrilled with seeing their money and their soldiers go (and die) overseas for a cause that wasn't their concern (sound familiar?). The money being spent over there on top of what was being wasted in their country plus the oppression and neglection from the monarchy all added up, and they all lead to the people being and feeling neglected. They obviously feel the money and resources can be better spent at home where there is still much room for improvement (sound familiar again?). Thus comes the need for regime change (sound familiar again?). The difference- instead of a voting them out of office, since that wasn't quite possible in France at the time, the citizens overthrow the government and send those guilty to the guillotine. A lot of things added up to cause the French Revolution, and French support in the American Revolution just happened to be one of those causes.

So what I'm saying is yes- that one of the straws leading to the French Revolution was the French monarchy's support for the American Revolution, for better or worse. Was it the sole cause? Certainly not. But don't get made at me for observing the way history has worked out.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 138):
Yes, he deserves all the respect for what he is doing, but he is a helicopter pilot, as such his perspective, while perhaps more informed, is still as novice as yours or mine as to what really goes on.

As a chopper pilot, he's been through SERE school. That tells me UH60 has a pretty good idea of what type of torture is effective and what isn't. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with you; I'm saying, be careful with your arguments here.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 138):
Every President has had to protect Executive power from Congress. Given free reign Congress would make the Presidency into a figure head position.

Be careful though. The exact opposite leads us towards the Ceasar's of Rome.
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:10 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 146):
I was deprived of lots of sleep in the military under several different sets of circumstances, no I don't consider that to be torture.

Ever spent an entire week without any sleep? BTW, Menachem Begin (hardly someone who would give a second thought about torturing someone to extract whatever information was necessary) said that "Anyone who has experienced it knows that not even hunger and thirst are comparable to it." I don't know about you, but for me starving someone to death is torture.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 146):
BTW as I read it the dictatorship was overthrown by the military, not a bunch of civilians. So if civilians were imprisoned and water boarded, then they were tortured.

It was eventually overthrown by the military, but in the meantime there were plenty of civilian and military plots going on (if you were caught doing something it didn't matter whether you had stripes on your shoulders or not, you were always interrogated with the measures deemed appropriate). To think that there was no information to extract from the people who were caught by the PIDE is just ludicrous (otherwise they wouldn't need to ever interrogate people, would they?).
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Bush To Veto Waterboarding Bill

Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:17 pm



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 147):
I'm saying, be careful with your arguments here.

I have my own military experience. I believe UH60 is aware of it.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 147):
Be careful though. The exact opposite leads us towards the Ceasar's of Rome.

Correct which is why there must be a balance of power. Congress, since the civil war unfortunately, has wanted more than it's fair share. The same can be said of a few Presidents as well.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 148):
Ever spent an entire week without any sleep?

Yes.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 148):
but for me starving someone to death is torture.

I have been starved while being forced to work. My mother broke down and cried at the airport when I got home just over the look of my physical condition.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Airstud and 14 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos