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andrej
Topic Author
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NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:25 pm

Hey all,

so here is a shocker of the day:

according to the Bloomberg, Eliot Spitzer admitted to his senior team members that he was involved in a prostitution ring. I will post more as I get more info. Wow.....totally shocked and quite it is ironic of him. I have expected a lot, but not that from a guy who was 'fighting' other unethical behavior!

I guess that NY and NJ governors have something special in their diet to admit to their scandals while in the office.

Cheers,
Andrej

EDIT: Spelling error

[Edited 2008-03-10 11:26:05]
 
andrej
Topic Author
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:28 pm

per CNN:

NEW YORK (AP) -- The New York Times is reporting that New York Gov. Eliot Spitzer has told senior advisers that he had been involved in a prostitution ring.

.....

more info at:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/10/spitzer.ap/index.html


I am shocked!  Wow!

Cheers,
Andrej
 
AirCop
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:35 pm

Should be interesting to see if he was a customer, or he was supplementing his Governor salary? It's too bad that this will knock the death of the five GI's off the front page.
 
slider
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Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:55 pm

Spitzer is an ass.

I'm glad he's being exposed for the scum he is.

I'll wager he doesn't resign...no one has any shame anymore these days. The SOB should be forced to step down, disbarred, and all his stupid do-gooding windmill attacking actions should be rescinded. Along with that idiotic NY State airline compensation bill.

Was it worth it Spitzer? HAHA
 
DLPMMM
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:58 pm

looks like he was a customer.

Here's the link from Reuters

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN1062947520080310
 
slider
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:59 pm



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 4):
looks like he was a customer.

Here's the link from Reuters

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...80310

I guess Mrs. Spitzer didn't...ah, forget it, the joke's too obvious! LOL
 
Superfly
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:14 pm

So what did he do wrong?
 
MaverickM11
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:17 pm

Good riddance. Oh the irony is so wonderful and juicy I'm getting dizzy. Silly

Quoting Slider (Reply 3):
I'll wager he doesn't resign...no one has any shame anymore these days. The SOB should be forced to step down, disbarred, and all his stupid do-gooding windmill attacking actions should be rescinded. Along with that idiotic NY State airline compensation bill.

Maybe someone is just using his own medicine against him--slam him with ridiculous accusations and then quietly settle out of the public eye Silly What an a$$hole.
 
andrej
Topic Author
Posts: 1284
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:22 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
So what did he do wrong?

He used services from prostitutes.

More info in the NY Times article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/10/nyregion/10cnd-spitzer.html?hp

Cheers,
Andrej
 
LHMark
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:23 pm

Hmm... A politician getting caught for seeing FEMALE prostitutes? Must be a democrat.  Smile
 
Superfly
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:28 pm



Quoting Andrej (Reply 8):
He used services from prostitutes.

So what did he do wrong?
 
LHMark
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:31 pm

I'll bet they were smokin' hot prostitutes... the best Eastern Europe has to offer.
 
fumanchewd
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:36 pm



Quoting Andrej (Thread starter):
I have expected a lot, but not that from a guy who was 'fighting' other unethical behavior!



Quoting Slider (Reply 3):
I'll wager he doesn't resign...no one has any shame anymore these days.

How shocking that a man used a hooker!! If every man who has used a hooker was to be fired from their job unemployment would be over 50% right now.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
So what did he do wrong?

 checkmark 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_Club
 
Superfly
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:37 pm



Quoting LHMARK (Reply 11):
I'll bet they were smokin' hot prostitutes...

At $5,000 a pop, they better be.

It sounds like he had consensual sex with an adult in private without any diapers involved, nor in a airport restroom.
So my question is, what did he do wrong?
 
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jetjack74
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:37 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
So what did he do wrong?

I know you're joking Larry, pleaee tell me you are.

Quoting Andrej (Reply 8):
He used services from prostitutes.

Well, before we cook him, let's acknowledge that he's innocent until proven guilty unless he's already admitted it. The good news is, his approval rating is likely to go up amongst liberals
 
Superfly
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:38 pm



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 13):
I know you're joking Larry, pleaee tell me you are.

Not joking at all.
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:38 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
So what did he do wrong?



Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
So what did he do wrong?

Leaves me wondering what your Asian female "friends" portrayed in the self pic threads do for a living.  Wink
 
Superfly
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Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:41 pm



Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 16):
Leaves me wondering what your Asian female "friends" portrayed in the self pic threads do for a living.

They aren't prostitutes, if that is what you are suggesting.
 
andrej
Topic Author
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:41 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):

So what did he do wrong?

LOL......  Smile Well he did not do anything wrong per say. We can blame his wife for not doing her job! My problem with him is his behavior. It is unethical to cheat on your wife and he was big on ethics. He fought all those unethical businessmen, yet he was (at least wanted) to use services of prostitute.

I like(d) him and I supported his fight against those that cheated others or were doing something against the law.

Well to give him benefit of doubt we don't know all details yet. But it does not look very good for him.

Cheers,
Andrej
 
andessmf
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:42 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
nor in a airport restroom.

Umm...he never had sex in an airport restroom.

It wouldn't be so bad, except for the fact that he campaigned in a platform of bringing ethics into the office.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 12):
If every man who has used a hooker was to be fired from their job unemployment would be over 50% right now.

There has been plenty of political careers that have ended of sex scandals. Should he be the exception?
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:43 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
So my question is, what did he do wrong?

Well, according to the linked article, he will be charged with a violation of the Mann Act, which in part makes transporting women between states for the purposes of prostitution illegal.
 
Superfly
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:45 pm

AndesSMF & Andrej:
You can't compare business ethics with one's personal love life.
Perhaps he is a great father and husband that just wanted a little fun on the side. Most who hire prostitutes are married men. Most single guys don't need to hire prostitutes.
 
LHMark
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:45 pm

Well, regardless of his own ethical lapses, the fact remains that he did fight for people who were being cheated. He even hauled in restaurant owners who were strongarming their staff out o their tip money!

He deserves to get lambasted for violating the law by seeing prostitutes, and this effectively arrests the at times meteoric rise of his political career, but you can't say the guy didn't go to bat for the people of New York State.
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:47 pm

Superfly... See the winky? I'm messin' with you.
 
Superfly
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution R

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:48 pm

Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 20):
he will be charged with a violation of the Mann Act

What a funny name for such an act.

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 21):
the fact remains that he did fight for people who were being cheated.


Which is totally different from being cheated on.
This should only be left between Mr & Mrs. Spitzer. The rest is none of our business.

[Edited 2008-03-10 12:52:46]
 
andessmf
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:49 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 22):

Of course not. But the standards about sex scandals was set long ago, and not by anyone here. If we are to change the standards now, be ready to face the consequences in the future. By that I mean that if a 'righteous' GOP member gets caught in a sex scandal, you lost your right to complain.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:51 pm

I am confused - the headline makes it sound like he was involved in the running of the prostitution ring - but the story makes it sound like he was just a customer - in which case is there really a story at all ?
 
andrej
Topic Author
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:55 pm



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 12):
How shocking that a man used a hooker!! If every man who has used a hooker was to be fired from their job unemployment would be over 50% right now.

I am sorry, but this is not "a job", he is a governor of NY. Maybe it means nothing to some, but to me it is one of the top jobs (public service wise). He is not a private citizen, but a public one. He is under spotlight and he should behave better then an ordinary man.

I said it before, I give him benefit of doubt. I like him and I am not against him. However I am shocked that man is such position would let his career and life get destroyed because of a hooker. He was married he should have stayed faithful to her. ( I know sometimes it is hard for people to remain faithful).

And I have some standards, I have been in positions where I was offered sex for money, but I refused/declined. I am not married or have lots of life experience but that should not matter. Lets see whats going to happen and what is actually happening.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 13):
Well, before we cook him, let's acknowledge that he's innocent until proven guilty unless he's already admitted it.

 checkmark 

I think that it proves a point that you can not trust anyone in todays world. All these politicians and lead business people who pretend to upheld some standards. But unfortunately sometimes the truth comes out about them, how they themselves did not upheld such standards and you are disgusted/upset/sad by their own actions.

I am not 'after' his head or anything, but it is certainly a shocker news!

Cheers,
Andrej
 
Superfly
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:55 pm



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 26):
but the story makes it sound like he was just a customer - in which case is there really a story at all ?

 checkmark 

This is hardly newsworthy.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 25):
But the standards about sex scandals was set long ago, and not by anyone here. If we are to change the standards now, be ready to face the consequences in the future. By that I mean that if a 'righteous' GOP member gets caught in a sex scandal, you lost your right to complain.

Who are you talking about?
The only complainers here are those that hate Governor Spiter's politics. I never read of Elliot Spitzer of being a moral crusader of family values and being a uptight prude.
 
PacNWjet
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Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2000 1:18 am

RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:56 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
So what did he do wrong?

If he is guilty, the question is not so much what he did "wrong" as what he did illegal. As an officer of the court Spitzer (who is an attorney under the New York State Bar Association) is sworn to uphold the law. He may disagree with the law and maybe even get away with violating certain laws as an act of conscience (e.g., violating a court order prohibiting assembling to protest in a certain place). But he can be disbarred for willful violation of the criminal code. Patronizing a prostitute may not be wrong in a moral sense, but an officer of the court can be held legally liable for willfully breaking the law.
 
TWFirst
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:56 pm



Quoting LHMARK (Reply 21):
Well, regardless of his own ethical lapses, the fact remains that he did fight for people who were being cheated. He even hauled in restaurant owners who were strongarming their staff out o their tip money!

He deserves to get lambasted for violating the law by seeing prostitutes, and this effectively arrests the at times meteoric rise of his political career, but you can't say the guy didn't go to bat for the people of New York State.

My sentiments precisely!!

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 26):
I am confused - the headline makes it sound like he was involved in the running of the prostitution ring - but the story makes it sound like he was just a customer - in which case is there really a story at all ?

He was just a customer. There's a story because it's the U.S.
 
LHMark
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:58 pm



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 25):
By that I mean that if a 'righteous' GOP member gets caught in a sex scandal, you lost your right to complain.

It's not fair to turn this incident into a Dems vs. GOP thing, but we all know it's gonna go there anyway, so here we go.

You have to admit, that the recent spate of GOP member sex scandals have been particulary lurid. Ted Haggard and Tappy McWidestance were going a bit above and beyond patronizing a prostitute. And the other key difference: Spitzer didn't use his bully pulpit to characterize groups of people as 'immoral' or attempt to use his power to damage those groups.

Busting prostitution rings when a patron of prostitutes seems hypocritical, and unethical since I doubt he busted his own connection too. But the AG can't ignore the duties of his office just because he violated the law that compels those duties. You don't see presidential pardons going out to convicted coke dealers.
 
Superfly
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:58 pm



Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 29):
he can be disbarred for willful violation of the criminal code. Patronizing a prostitute may not be wrong in a moral sense, but an officer of the court can be held legally liable for willfully breaking the law.

So will he be cleaning up bird crap with Boy George as his punishment or will he kicked out of office?
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:01 pm

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 26):
I am confused - the headline makes it sound like he was involved in the running of the prostitution ring - but the story makes it sound like he was just a customer - in which case is there really a story at all ?

He's been referred to "Client #9" in the police transcripts. He was caught in a wiretap sting.

The reason he's in bigger trouble than the typical politician is that he made a point of being a hardass when it came to prosecuting prostitution.

And it's not simply a matter between he and his sucker wife. When a public servant breaks the law, it's a public matter. The amount of money involved may make it a felony. Doctors and nurses can lose their licenses and careers for felonies. Why shouldn't a governor?

[Edited 2008-03-10 13:05:51]
 
andrej
Topic Author
Posts: 1284
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 8:31 am

RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:04 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 28):
The only complainers here are those that hate Governor Spiter's politics. I never read of Elliot Spitzer of being a moral crusader of family values and being a uptight prude.

You are right there. And I appreciate your point of view. I did not looked at it that way. Certainly he is not first one, and sad to say that he is not the last one to be involved in a sex scandal.

However I still believe that he was big on ethics. You are certainly right that professional ethical behavior should not be combined with professionals ones. But as a governor you have some ethical responsibility to the people of NY, and most importantly his family.

And to be honest with you, I don't believe that as married man, he should look for a hooker. If his wife wanted threesome or something that is different, but you should not cheat on your wife.

Finally I am certain that he is good father, but I believe that he is poor husband.

Cheers,
Andrej
 
fumanchewd
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:04 pm



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 17):
There has been plenty of political careers that have ended of sex scandals. Should he be the exception?

There have also been plenty of political careers that have continued after sex scandals. (Even a president or two)
 
kiwiandrew

RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:06 pm



Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 33):
When a public servant breaks the law, it's a public matter.

thanks for the clarification , I didnt realise that he was hiring an illegal prostitute , not a very smart choice on his part
 
AirTranTUS
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Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:12 am

RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:10 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
So what did he do wrong?

If he was a republican, you would be all over him. Just imagine he is, and use that reasoning to answer your question.
 
Superfly
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:11 pm



Quoting Andrej (Reply 34):
And to be honest with you, I don't believe that as married man, he should look for a hooker. If his wife wanted threesome or something that is different, but you should not cheat on your wife.

Most who hire hookers are married men. This is something that should be settled between Mr. & Mrs. Spitzer.


Also, why is the word "scandal" always associated with "sex"?
The guy hired a prostitute. The governor got laid. Big deal!
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:11 pm



Quoting Andrej (Reply 27):
And I have some standards, I have been in positions where I was offered sex for money, but I refused/declined. I am not married or have lots of life experience but that should not matter.

So you are making judgements against men who use prostitution. We never asked if you've used them, yet you had to point out that you are above that. What about a single man who uses them in parts of Nevada where it is legal? I think you would still make judgements because we've been ingrained to believe that all prostitution is bad. I agree that street prostitution is a terrible thing as it usually involves violence and drugs. If its a voluntary sign up for the ho and she's making thousands, I have no problem with it.

Who is the victim in this crime?
 
Newark777
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Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:23 am

RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:11 pm



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 36):
I didnt realise that he was hiring an illegal prostitute

Not too many legal prostitutes here in the states.  Wink
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18742
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:12 pm



Quoting TWFirst (Reply 30):
He was just a customer. There's a story because it's the U.S.



Quoting Superfly (Reply 24):
This should only be left between Mr & Mrs. Spitzer. The rest is none of our business.

Prostitution, outside of Nevada, is illegal n'est-ce pas?
 
Superfly
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RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:12 pm



Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 37):
If he was a republican, you would be all over him. Just imagine he is, and use that reasoning to answer your question.

Not true at all.
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:14 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 42):
Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 37):
If he was a republican, you would be all over him. Just imagine he is, and use that reasoning to answer your question.

Not true at all.

I think that when it comes to sex, Fly wouldn't be judgemental even to Hitler.
 
ShyFlyer
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Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:38 pm

RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:18 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 39):
This is something that should be settled between Mr. & Mrs. Spitzer.

The moral ramifications of his alleged act should be just between them. However, he is being charged with violating a federal law, which cannot and should not be swept under the rug.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:18 pm



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 43):
Fly wouldn't be judgemental even to Hitler.

Again, not true. Hitler was rumored to be gay yet he had gays killed.


The conservatives on this forum act as if this story was a gift from Santa Clause.

Just look at the Republicans sex scandals. Those were indeed scandals. The cases involving Foley, Vitters, Craig, Calvert, Haggard, Packwood, etc is creepy.
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:18 pm



Quoting Andrej (Reply 27):
I am sorry, but this is not "a job", he is a governor of NY. Maybe it means nothing to some, but to me it is one of the top jobs (public service wise). He is not a private citizen, but a public one. He is under spotlight and he should behave better then an ordinary man.

I said it before, I give him benefit of doubt. I like him and I am not against him. However I am shocked that man is such position would let his career and life get destroyed because of a hooker. He was married he should have stayed faithful to her. ( I know sometimes it is hard for people to remain faithful).



I just don't think he should lose his job over it.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:21 pm



Quoting Andrej (Reply 27):
He is under spotlight and he should behave better then an ordinary man.

Ordinary men don't spend $5,000.00 on a hooker.
 
andrej
Topic Author
Posts: 1284
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 8:31 am

RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:22 pm



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 40):
So you are making judgements against men who use prostitution. We never asked if you've used them, yet you had to point out that you are above that. What about a single man who uses them in parts of Nevada where it is legal? I think you would still make judgements because we've been ingrained to believe that all prostitution is bad. I agree that street prostitution is a terrible thing as it usually involves violence and drugs. If its a voluntary sign up for the ho and she's making thousands, I have no problem with it.

Who is the victim in this crime?

Well where I lived in US it was illegal. He did not used them in Nevada, but in DC, where I also believe it is illegal. If you want to use them in Nevada, go ahead and have fun. Really if it is legal go for it. I was not implying that I am better then him, but it is easy to say no. I do believe that as married man you should not pay for a hooker and if you do, you are a failure. You failed your wife and the trust between her and yourself. You may and probably have different view.

He is a governor of NY, and therefore he is held to different standards. At least to some, not all. I am not against legal prostitution.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 39):
Most who hire hookers are married men. This is something that should be settled between Mr. & Mrs. Spitzer.


Also, why is the word "scandal" always associated with "sex"?
The guy hired a prostitute. The governor got laid. Big deal!

Well the problem I have with this is that he is a governor and he broke the law. He will not be the first nor last but still he broke the law.

Cheers,
Andrej  wave 
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18742
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: NY Governor Spitzer Involved In Prostitution Ring

Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:24 pm



Quoting Andrej (Reply 48):
Well the problem I have with this is that he is a governor and he broke the law. He will not be the first nor last but still he broke the law.

And even if it's not true, he now knows what it's like to be the victim of a Spitzer-esque smear campaign. So it works out for everybody Silly

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