Well , first of all we do not believe in Magic.. except if his is last name is Johnson... 2nd .. we just bought $40 billion worth of your airplanes .. now would be a good time to STFU ... Me To ...


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,337410,00.html

Just another damn coward. More and more dem talking points. Im surprised hes not over here campaigning with them.

Whilst the USA is in deep sh*t, France isn't exactly in great shape itself....
hmmm let me see... riots in France every few months about one thing or another, a rapidly aging population, large national debt, out of control immigration particularly from Africa causing all sorts of integration issues (a cause of many of the beforementioned riots), ageing nuclear reactors, etc

The people of the world still have to peddle their wares somewhere, and it's the US as the biggest shopping mall in the world.

So, they can crow about the downfall of America, but if the US does fall, then France and all the others will be sucked down with us.

-Copa

Oh, please! The magic's just begun!

I don't suppose any of you posters have bothered to read what he actually said. He makes a valid point - the US' reputation abroad has been very badly damaged by the Bush presidency, and it will take some real spadework from whoever is next to get it back. He also expresses doubt that it will ever reach the same level of respect and admiration that it had before. That's a debatable point, but he might not be entirely wrong. The world is a different place now - the world may have been happy before with the US as sole superpower, but after Bush the world seems to prefer the notion of a multipolar world, where no one country has all the power. Rightly or wrongly, that's how it is. The other "poles" are not exactly paragons of virtue either - Russia, China - so as a European I'd be pleased to see the EU step up as a fourth "pole" to balance things out. As a multi-cultural community of established, fairly prosperous, broadly peaceful and above all free democracies, we have an example to set to the world, if nothing else.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 5): don't suppose any of you posters have bothered to read what he actually said.

Aaaa shucks gomer ... we plum forgot to do the readin part.  

I guess our reputation would be better if Saddam was still in power .... oh well maybe he is right after all.

"I think the magic is over," Kouchner told the International Herald Tribune. "It will never be as it was before."

"He added that, although it will take time, the new president will have “many means to re-establish the image” of a country whose reputation is suffering."

This'll just prove (to anyone who didn't already know) how bloody old I am. But I began visiting France as a schoolboy in 1958, and was surprised (and offended) by the hostility I often encountered as soon as I began speaking with what they thought was an English accent; even though my French was reasonably good in those days. Later, I found that that hostility was nothing compared to the hostility that American visitors had to put up with at that time.

It soon dawned on me why the French were so uptight - they resented the fact that they had surrendered within a few weeks of the hard part of WW2 beginning, and therefore strongly disliked the British, who had (illogically, from a Frenchman's viewpoint) gone on fighting; and the Americans, who had provided a lot of the 'horsepower' necessary to liberate France and the rest of Occupied Europe. After a while France just became, for me, the unwelcoming place that I had to traverse to reach sensible, welcoming countries like Belgium, Holland, and Germany.

Later on I married a girl who loved France and had some happier times visiting it - especially in the South of France. I really thought, by say the 1980s, that the French resentment about WW2 had faded into history. But now, with this report, here it is again.

Couldn't understand the throwback to the 1950s at first - until I looked M. Kouchner up.

"Bernard Kouchner (born November 1, 1939 in Avignon) is a French politician, diplomat, and doctor. He is co-founder of Doctors Without Borders (MSF) and Doctors of the World. He is currently the French minister of Foreign and European Affairs in the right-wing Fillon government, although he was considered in the past to be a leftist politician."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Kouchner

So the bugger's even older than I am, and was brought up in the aftermath of WW2, just as I was. Don't worry about him, guys - he was brought up to hate the 'Anglo-Saxons,' and above all the Americans, because of France's shameful surrender way back in 1940. I'd be very surprised if he's in any way typical of the majority of French people today.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 6): I guess our reputation would be better if Saddam was still in power

Or perhaps if you'd addressed the real villains of the piece, the house of Saud. But I forgot, they're bbq-buddies from back in Crawford. Silly me.

Iraq was a side-show, nothing more. Yes Saddam was a bastard, but he'd been a bastard for at least 20 years, but at least back in the beginning he was YOUR bastard against the Axis-Of-Even-More-Evil, Iran. O tempora, o mores.

Are you even remotely surprised that the world has grown somewhat cynical regarding who the US regards as "enemies of freedom" ?

Quoting AGM100 (Thread starter):

What planet have you been on AGM. The guy is right. This president has so damaged our reputation that whomever is President will have a hard time restoring our good name. And this Minister may be right-we may never be seen as we once were. Bush has simply done everything wrong on the foreign policy front, and left our good name in tatters, and our reputation damaged for decades.

Maybe you should STFU, and start living in the real world.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 6): I guess our reputation would be better if Saddam was still in power .... oh well maybe he is right after all.

I thought the war in Iraq was about WMD? Remember those-that was THE REASON, wasn't it? But I guess we have the right to overthrow any leader, vile as he was, simply because we can, right AGM?

And, guess what? Knowing what we know now, that Saddam's WMD program was only a figment of his imagination, we would have been better off not going in there-5000 young Americans would still be alive; our foreign policy wouldn't be the laughingstock of the world; our president wouldn't have an approval rating of 30%. Seems to me, we'd have been WAY better off had we never gone on this damn fool of an adventure.

But go blame the French. That makes you feel better.

Quoting AGM100 (Thread starter): 2nd .. we just bought $40 billion worth of your airplanes

When do the Americans understand that Airbus is not a French company?  

You really better should read more instead of grumbling about what you couldn't understand, because you don't want to deal with it.

Axel

I have read the article yesterday so instead of getting the second-hand source from Fox News, why not read the actual and complete thing? You will get a much better picture of what he was saying:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/12/europe/france.php

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 7): Don't worry about him, guys - he was brought up to hate the 'Anglo-Saxons,' and above all the Americans

I would suggest going a little beyond wikipedia to determine what his stances are and who the guy is. I believe you have misjudged him. I have been living in France for quite some time and, as pictured by the journalist of the IHT, Kouchner is one of the strongest supporters of the US in France (4th paragraph).

Oh, great, another article about the French on Fox news...  

I might seem obviously biased, but I agree with Flacon84. The image of the US in the world is shot.

Kouchner does not mention anything about economic situation, or the state of the diplomatic situation between the US and France. He is merely stating the evident result of 8 years of mostly misguided foreign affairs policy of the Bush government (surely the majority of US citizens on here would agree?).

I know any thread the French on here will generally result in a rally of voices against the 'cheese eating surrender monkeys', as Jeremy Clarkson affectionately calls us, but then I wonder: Why are so many people offended by what a relatively small European country, about a third the size of Texas and an economy hardly more prolific than that of California, have to say about them?

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 3): they can crow about the downfall of America

No 'they' don't, on the contrary, 'they' hope that America's influence and relevance in international affairs will be restored and that it's diplomacy gets back on track as it is and will remain a primordial player on the global scene. In my opinion, the result of the masquerade of a foreign policy is what has divided the western world instead of speaking of one voice against the rising influence of 'objectable' un-democratic hard-lined governments such as Iran, Syria and many others who happen to be on neutral terms with or get the favors of Russia and China.

edit: d#mn UBB code...

[Edited 2008-03-14 07:27:08]

Actually it doesn't matter that he is French, because he just expressed what the large majority in the world thinks about this issue.

The reputation of the US was/is demolished by the current government. The successor will have much to do.

Axel

[Edited 2008-03-14 07:37:47]

Quoting Greggarious (Reply 4): Oh, please! The magic's just begun!

Arrested Development is pure genius 

That quote was incredibly good!!

asturias

Magic? France? It's still there. Just east of Paris.

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 13): Actually it doesn't matter that he is French, because he just expressed what the large majority in the world thinks about this issue.

And you speak for the rest of the world and know what they're thinking? Good thing you're on the job there Axle, help us rude frontiersmen and backwoodmen with our table manners and all that.

Has it occurred to any of you putzes that he's preaching to the choir?

Hey Bernie. Got your magic right here. Hangin.



[Edited 2008-03-14 07:50:04]

[Edited 2008-03-14 07:53:04]

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 15): Magic? France? It's still there. Just east of Paris.

Magic? Disneyland? East of Paris? No, it's a flop! 

(And exorbitant expensive)

Axel

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 16): And you speak for the rest of the world and know what they're thinking? What a fracking genius you must be.

 

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,461517,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5077984.stm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2006/09/18/AR2006091801414.html
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,540775-2,00.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/15/world/main649513.shtml
I don't have the time to find more for you.  

Behind what moon are you living? Wake up YOU fracking genius!   

Axel

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 17): No, it's a flop!

Disney's advertising slogan is "Come See the Magic of Disney." You must not know that.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 19): Magic of Disney

The concept of "magic" underlies very different interpretations.  

Axel

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 5): I don't suppose any of you posters have bothered to read what he actually said.

Looks as if they did not. Both Nav and Jonathon managed to find where it came from.

Quoting Jonathan-l (Reply 11): I have read the article yesterday so instead of getting the second-hand source from Fox News, why not read the actual and complete thing? You will get a much better picture of what he was saying: http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/12/europe/france.php

I think that Navs reaction is a bit of the Entente not so cordiale. I was in the UK at that time too and I do not remember any of that feeling - must have been different in the deep south. I can see why some are reaching for the gun to shoot the messenger, or the chain to flush his ideas down the gurgler. Alas the time for this sort of thing has not, as yet arrived:

"He then carefully couched this statement by noting that, in general, "we have to talk with our enemies," and that Fatah, which controls the West Bank, "always said they were in favor" of unity talks with Hamas. But after Hamas routed Fatah forces from Gaza in June, the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah, has refused to deal with Hamas, which he accused of committing a coup. Kouchner, of the Socialist left in France, stirred controversy when he accepted the offer from President Nicolas Sarkozy, leader of the Gaullist center-right, to join his government last May.
.........
But he conceded that practicing the new diplomacy - which he defined as being action that is more practical, multifaceted and realistic than mere protocol calls and visits - "is very difficult, and very time-consuming." "

Eventually, we will all have to move past the catch cry of "we will not negotiate with terrorists" when all the world knows that we will and we have to, and of course a new administration might be willing to concede that diplomacy is time consuming.

It is not the right place for the blinkered vision of the neo-cons and "efforts" of the dilettantes.

Quoting Jonathan-l (Reply 11): You will get a much better picture of what he was saying:

Thanks, Jonathan-I - you're probably half-right. Or even more than half; I did fly off the handle a bit.

What got me though was his pessimism in suggesting that it will take a long time for the USA to redeem itself. There are people in the USA who say that it should maybe be less of a republic and more of a democracy - and I tend to agree with them, Americans often pay a high price for a system that hands very wide powers to a president who (given even reasonable luck) can exercise them 'without let or hindrance' for the next eight years.

But that system has the advantage that when things DO change, those 'very wide powers' ensure that they can change quickly. Heaven knows which of the three current presidential contenders will finish up being sworn in next January, but one thing we know already is that they are all a damn sight more intelligent than the idiot Dubya. So we can all be reasonably confident that US foreign policy will be a lot more sensible and constructive from January 2008 on.

And the other thing to remember is the sheer energy of the United States, the speed with which any such changes can be implemented. That's one of the advantages of a republic, as opposed to a true democracy. My favourite quote on that subject is probably Churchill's 1941 recollection of the words of Sir Edward Grey, the night after Pearl Harbor:-

"Silly people - and there were many, not only in enemy countries - might discount the force of the United States. Some said they were soft, others that they would never be united. They would fool around at a distance. They would never come to grips. They would never stand blood-letting. Their democracy and system of recurrent elections would paralyze their war effort. They would be just a vague blur on the horizon to friend or foe. Now we should see the weakness of this numerous but remote, wealthy, and talkative people. But I had studied the American Civil War, fought out to the last desperate inch. American blood flowed in my veins. I thought of a remark which Edward Grey had made to me more than thirty years before‹that the United States is like "a gigantic boiler. Once the fire is lighted under it there is no limit to the power it can generate."

http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=280

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 16): And you speak for the rest of the world and know what they're thinking?

The former - no.
The latter - yes.

It is not a secret at all for those who keep their eyes and ears open.

I cannot recommend you enough to acquaint yourself with the Pew Global Attitudes Project, which regularly conducts worldwide surveys, with the attitudes towards the USA and their policies featuring prominently:

Pew Global Attitudes Project: America’s Image in the World: Findings from the Pew Global Attitudes Project

Just one excerpt:



And the more detailed suveys clearly show that it has nothing to do with "anti-americanism" springing up for no particular reason; The resentment of the US policies is clearly rooted in the policies and attitudes of the Bush administration. The USA as such is generally held in significantly higher regard but the Bush administration has managed to severely tarnish the previously rather positive image of the country.


Regarding Kouchner's statement, I must agree up to a point - the USA had established itself as the legitimate and thus uncontested leader of the free world during and after WWII.

The Bush administration has managed to destroy that legitimacy in the eyes of the world; And as a consequence the exceptional position the USA once enjoyed will most probably not be recoverable after it had been abused to the extent we've seen.

The world has changed. And unfortunately 9-11 as a chance for worldwide unity in a common purpose has been thrown away for the illusion of absolute global domination without any accountability.

Extremely unfortunate, and the reason why the USA will probably never again enjoy the almost unconditional support they once had.

I'll have to remember this the next time I'm making a product for a French customer, like I'm currently doing at this time...
 

Quoting Klaus (Reply 23):

And guess what?

The same applies to the opinion in the US. From a BBC survey from January 2007:

Also in the USA the amount of those, which see their country particularly as a positive power in the world, descent to 57 per cent. One year ago it was still 63 per cent, two years before: 71 per cent.

Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 24): I'll have to remember this the next time I'm making a product for a French customer, like I'm currently doing at this time...

Do you actually have read this:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/12/europe/france.php

... or the rest of this thread?

Axel

[Edited 2008-03-14 09:38:09]

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 25): Do you actually have read this:

Notice my smiley -  

No worries, business as usual for me.

Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 26): Notice my smiley

Sorry, I've misunderstood your post.

Axel

[Edited 2008-03-14 09:52:50]

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 10): You really better should read more instead of grumbling about what you couldn't understand, because you don't want to deal with it.

Well brother when we are doing FMC or post mod bite test and checks on A330'S ... guess where we have to call for tech pubs SB's...and test tools if we need them... thats right .. Toulouse Oklahoma ! 


Personally I dont care ,, I love the A330 and I think the Airforce bought a great system ... just a little gratitude would be nice.

Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 24): I'll have to remember this the next time I'm making a product for a French customer, like I'm currently doing at this time...

Noting your smiley (although perhaps not entirely understanding it!!) it is interesting to analyse the possible sentiment.

If you were the Administration, making a whatsit for a French customer, it would be fine to remember those views.

If you are not the Administration (which seems most likely) note the careful explanation of Klaus that it is the US Govt and not Americans that have gone down the opinion toilet. So your memory can safely be purged. Ctrl+alt+delete.

There is a hidden question that most of us hope never has to be tested, if successive administrations were similar to the Bush (Shrub) ones, the opinion about Administrations might eventually start to rub off. Let us hope that does not happen. Which is why international industries and personal interactions are so important as a counterbalance to the idiocies of the pollies.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 29): that it is the US Govt and not Americans that have gone down the opinion toilet.

Yes.

BTW. the veto of Dubjaa aginst the Anti-Torture-Bill wasn't very helpful to improve the reputation.   
A country, where torture is officially permitted and performed just can't be longer a model for the "free world".  

Axel

[Edited 2008-03-14 10:37:09]

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 30): officially permitted

The only reason it is a issue is because the question has been asked directly of our government. Has anyone asked the French government the same question ... " If you have a known terrorist and a ticking time bomb will you condone torture" See ... its all like a giant movie man ! perception perception .

OH Well the folks in Europastan hate us ... to bad I guess.

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 30): model for the "free world".

Got another model in mind ?

The French would all be eating sauerkraut and speaking German in Paris right now if the US hadn't saved France from the Nazis.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 31): If you have a known terrorist and a ticking time bomb will you condone torture" See ... its all like a giant movie man ! perception perception .

Oh yes, this is a wise argument for torture. (I would await this from people of the middle ages)

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 31): OH Well the folks in Europastan hate us ... to bad I guess.

I hate to repeat myself, but -
You really better should read more instead of grumbling about what you couldn't understand, because you don't want to deal with it.

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 32): The French would all be eating sauerkraut and speaking German in Paris right now if the US hadn't saved France from the Nazis.

Another popular argument here in this forum. Always coming when Europeans dare to articulate any critizism on the US of A. Oh I forgot, like the pope the US is inerrable.

But hey, what has this argument to do with todays reputation of the US?

Axel

[Edited 2008-03-14 11:09:21]

If France, Germany, UK, etc. were as powerful as the US, they'd be doing the exact same things. Instead of the US-bashers we see so often, we'd see France-bashers, Germany-bashers, etc.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 23): Quoting Dougloid (Reply 16): And you speak for the rest of the world and know what they're thinking? The former - no. The latter - yes.

Klaus, I was talking to Axle, not you. Rest assured when I have something to say to you, you shall hear it.

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 34): we'd see France-bashers

I thought we bashed them all the time anyway. The surrender and run thing is a popular French stereotype in the USA. That and mimes.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 36): The surrender and run thing is a popular French stereotype in the USA.

They don't?

They've caused most of the messes we've been in. Dividing up the Middle East, Vietnam, WW2, etc.

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 10): When do the Americans understand that Airbus is not a French company?

Axle, I think you better head on over to Toulouse and 'splain that to the fellows who are going to build the KC45-if Kouchner didn't tank that deal for them. If I was Enders I'd probably have Bernie kneecapped.

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 33): You really better should read more instead of grumbling about what you couldn't understand, because you don't want to deal with it.

I deal with it everyday man .... Answer my question ... Got a better leader for the freeworld ? Germany ? Im cool with that , I love Germany .. France... Who knows ? ... EU ? Lets talk ... China maybe ? Russia ? lay it ...

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 33): Oh yes, this is a wise argument for torture.

Not my argument for torture their man ... That is the question that has been asked to our President ... My point is ,has someone put a mike in Chancellor Merkles grill and asked her the same question ? Answer is .. No, they haven't so Germany has missed being labeled a torture state by the freethinkers of Europe .

Besides having a German start pointing a cricked off finger in our face is a little weird anyway , dont you think ?. Since when did you guys arrive at the plateau of moral piety to be able to divulge judgment . We still have Vets in our hospitals that are blown to shit from fighting with your fathers. Spare me.

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 34): If France, Germany, UK, etc. were as powerful as the US, they'd be doing the exact same things

Pfft. Been there, done that, got the T shirt....

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 39): Besides having a German start pointing a cricked off finger in our face is a little weird anyway , dont you think ?. Since when did you guys arrive at the plateau of moral piety to be able to divulge judgment . We still have Vets in our hospitals that are blown to shit from fighting with your fathers. Spare me.

No, we don't. And we can't. Precisely for these reasons. In our country's name people have been denied due process, people have been tortured and people have been killed. Believe me - we know better than you do what we're talking about; And it's not the sanitized fiction you see in TV dramas by far; It's a much dirtier, bloodier and sadder reality.

If you think somebody who tries to dissuade you from such things could not be your friend, you should probably re-examine the difference between the terms friend and accomplice.

Quoting Banco (Reply 40): Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 34): If France, Germany, UK, etc. were as powerful as the US, they'd be doing the exact same things Pfft. Been there, done that, got the T shirt....

...the mass graves, the memorials and the apologies to the victims or their relatives.

This is not a road to follow - especially not when we're talking about anything which has the term "free world" in it.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 41): And it's not the sanitized fiction you see in TV dramas by far; It's a much dirtier, bloodier and sadder reality.

You bet it is Klaus ... and I always appreciate your arguments. I just didn't like the tone of OldEuropean. I have said before on here that I do not support torture ,, but their are many angles to this story. Not least of which is the fact the press has blown it out of proportion and it has been used as a feint for those who didn't like us anyways. This of course is not entirely the case ,, their are angles to this side of the story as well. Germany and the US have become great partners because of the fact the US did not occupy torture and rule over Germans. This little elephant in the room is winked away by people like Old European ,, to take the easy rode of just blaming us for the world problems. If we were a torture nation than how would Germany look today !

Quoting Klaus (Reply 41): No, we don't. And we can't. Precisely for these reasons. In our country's name people have been denied due process, people have been tortured and people have been killed. Believe me - we know better than you do what we're talking about; And it's not the sanitized fiction you see in TV dramas by far; It's a much dirtier, bloodier and sadder reality. If you think somebody who tries to dissuade you from such things could not be your friend, you should probably re-examine the difference between the terms friend and accomplice.

How did we get from the musings of a digestive endoscopist with too much time on his hands to the end of the world as we know it? So many bowels, so little time, huh?

 

Quoting AGM100 (Thread starter): first of all we do not believe in Magic

-
I cannot quite see what you are upset about. Dr Kouchner simply gave a very good analysis of the situation.
-

Quoting Flanker (Reply 1): More and more dem talking points. Im surprised hes not over here campaigning with them.

-
Nothing of a "coward" but as usual making a rational and thorough analysis. A few weeks ago, in another forum, some people tried to paint him as "that Jew", for similar reasons.
-

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 2): out of control immigration particularly from Africa

-
the immigration in France is NOT "out of control". The major immigration waves were in the 1960ies and 70ies. Most of the problems with "foreigners" are usually exactly with Secondos who already are French citizens.
-

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 2): a rapidly aging population, large national debt

the aging population is a problem throughout Europe so that immigration helps a bit to cure it. The "large" national debt is similar to the one of other countres
-
and, most of all, Dr Kouchner is neither Immigration minister, nor Interior Minister, nor Finance Minister, nor Education Minister, but the Foreign Minister, and so, the problems you mention are NOT his business.
-

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 3): So, they can crow about the downfall of America, but if the US does fall, then France and all the others will be sucked down with us.

-
Dr Kouchner is NOT interested in a "downfall of America". If you re-read his analysis then he is talking about ways to improve the image of the USA and to save the USA from whatever "downfall" --- quite the contrary of your assumption
-

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 7): why the French were so uptight - they resented the fact that they had surrendered within a few weeks of the hard part of WW2 beginning

-
NO, this is NOT the reason. In regard to the surrender of C.I.C. Marshal Petain, they could easily take comfort in the fact that very swiftly established a government in exile. What however is the REAL reason for many French being so "uptight" about English speakers ? Simple. For ages, France was THE world power (they generously ignored the fact that the British Empire was larger), and French was THE international language. THIS finally and definitely collapsed in WW-II and the years after it. One of the most effective arguments of Francois Mitterand against Valery Giscard d'Estaing was that Giscard dared to speak English in public, recommended the learning of other languages, and abstained from forcing German Federal Chancellor Helmut Schmidt to talk French with him.
-

Quoting AGM100 (Thread starter): we just bought $40 billion worth of your airplanes .

-
Sorry, but Dr Kouchner is, whenever of Alsace-origin, the FRENCH Foreign Minister and NOT the German Foreign Minister. So that, whenever it is fine that you are purchasing GERMAN AIRPLANES, this is none of his business  
-

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 31): If you have a known terrorist and a ticking time bomb

-
Off-topic. As terrorists who got caught and are in prison do NOT carry ticking bombs
-

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 31): the folks in Europastan hate us

-
and wrong again. Neither Dr Kouchner nor "the folks in Europastan" hate you.
-

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 32): if the US hadn't saved France from the Nazis.

-
"saved" is the wrong word. You ought to say that the USA and Great Britain liberated France (and the rest of Europe). Your ignoring Great Britain is not improving your argument either. And here how France was saved :
and the man ruled there for 4 years
-

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 34): If France, Germany, UK, etc. were as powerful as the US, they'd be doing the exact same things. Instead of the US-bashers we see so often, we'd see France-bashers, Germany-bashers, etc.

-
In the times when Great Britain and France were the two superpowers, bashing those countries and their leadership was the thing in many places around the globe. For comments about those two powers you might look into speeches of Mohammed V, Belkacem Krim, Ahmed Ben Bella, Habib Bourguiba, Gamal Abdel Nasr, Kofi Nkrumah, Pandit Nehru and many others. And until 1990, the superpower hated and feared by most in Western Europe was the USSR. Not least as they DID similar mistakes. And overstretching the military forces is not an investion of GWB, Emperor Napoleon I and Imperial Chancellor Adolf Hitler did the same.
-
Beside the point that France-bashing is a popular pastime in the USA still. And this in spite of the long forgotten "Louisiana Purchase" .
-

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 42): You bet it is Klaus ... and I always appreciate your arguments. I just didn't like the tone of OldEuropean.

Your response was not chosen very well, then...

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 42): I have said before on here that I do not support torture ,, but their are many angles to this story. Not least of which is the fact the press has blown it out of proportion and it has been used as a feint for those who didn't like us anyways.

The fact that president Bush has just made torture an official policy of the USA can hardly be "blown out of proportion". It is a step of monumental significance - and unfortunately not a step upwards!

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 42): Germany and the US have become great partners because of the fact the US did not occupy torture and rule over Germans. This little elephant in the room is winked away by people like Old European ,, to take the easy rode of just blaming us for the world problems. If we were a torture nation than how would Germany look today!

Simply try to live up to the good example of your own best generations and you'll be fine.

What has shocked, disgusted and above all disappointed so many around the world is that recently too many americans have been content to be just very slightly less brutal and oppressive than the people they were fighting. And that is just not good enough by any measure.

If we hadn't known a better America before, the disappointment would not have been quite as severe. But then we would not have trusted you as much as we did either.

Where I concur with Kouchner is that there are a few things that cannot be repaired - and the belief that the USA can always be counted on to stand for freedom and the rule of law (maybe with minor aberrations) has just died during the past seven years.

We can hope that the USA will come back next year, but we know now that we can't just leave decisions about global matters to the US government to the extent that we have in the recent past. The new world will have to be much more cooperative, and with much less free room for future US governments to do as they please.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 44): Beside the point that France-bashing is a popular pastime in the USA still. And this in spite of the long forgotten "Louisiana Purchase" .

Not forgotten around here, if it wasn't for the Louisiana Purchase we'd all be speaking French here. Come to think of it a lot of the place names here are French. Prairie du Chien, Davenport, St. Louis, Des Moines....

when we selected a flag for our state it could have been any damn thing we wanted but it was this:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 45): Simply try to live up to the good example of your own best generations and you'll be fine.

The generation that at times had to shoot every other prisoner to get the location of the enemy and imprisoned whole populations because they had slanted eyes ? ... Not likely .

But I believe when our officials say over and over that torture involving extreme measure is not used it is true. What else can we do ... President Bush has said that we do not torture people I am good with it. The question here is not if torture is used , it is about official position to some extent.

I assume that their is something in that bill that has to do with POW's getting trials by Georgetown trained ACLU lawyers. Earmarks come in all kinds of fashion, and adding it to this bill would not be passed them.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 28): just a little gratitude would be nice.

For what, and for how long? For World War II? You still want them fawning over us for that. 60 years ago. They showed their gratitude to us for that, and they will always be grateful for what we did to help liberate their nation from the Nazis.

You aren't looking for gratutude, AGM. You're looking for 1. A free pass from France for whatever we do, and to not ever be critisized for it, and 2. For them to kiss our collective asses. You think it's fair game to critisize France for their shortcomings, but God help them, or anyone else, with people like you, if they point out ours. That's a hypocritical double standard if I've ever seen one.

So just fess up-you want them to goose-step with us. More precisely, you want them to just leave poor Mr. Bush along, and STFU because they have the audacity to disagree with us.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 44): For ages, France was THE world power (they generously ignored the fact that the British Empire was larger), and French was THE international language.

No, it wasn't. Not at any point during which the British were a major power. France was hemmed in by British naval strength, and after 1815 it had overseas possessions only because the British granted them back to them at the close of the Napoleonic Wars. The reason the British did this was because they did not wish to be supreme power in Europe, merely the leading one. If Britain were the supreme power, everyone else would do their damnedest to topple them. By maintaining a balance of power amongst all continental nations, the British would be left alone.

Only if you are spectacularly ignorant of naval power could you even begin to believe France was "THE world power" as you put it. It was nowhere near.