Quoting AGM100 (Reply 28): just a little gratitude would be nice.

Maybe you should return the favour and thank the French. Does Yorktown ring a bell?

Quoting RobertNL070 (Reply 50): Maybe you should return the favour and thank the French. Does Yorktown ring a bell?

Unfortunately, most Americans don't realise that their War of Independence, vitally important to them, was in fact a relatively unimportant part of a long war between Britain and France. Had the US not become the power that it did, it would be a small paragraph of the global history books.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 2): riots in France every few months about one thing or another,

slight exageration me thinks, and that's coming from somebody "living" in France. just as safe on 99% of streets here as any other stable country.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 2): a rapidly aging population, large national debt

Problem in many European countries.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 2): out of control immigration particularly from Africa causing all sorts of integration issues

Out of control? Why do you say that?
Integration issues? How much time have you LIVED in France may I ask? Just out of curiosity...

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 5): I don't suppose any of you posters have bothered to read what he actually said. He makes a valid point - the US' reputation abroad has been very badly damaged by the Bush presidency, and it will take some real spadework from whoever is next to get it back

They obviously haven't, but why would they? That might prevent them from being able to bash France or a French person, or Airbus, or the EU, or Airbus...

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9): What planet have you been on AGM. The guy is right. This president has so damaged our reputation that whomever is President will have a hard time restoring our good name

Falcon84, I really need to get you on my RR list if you're not already there. I agree with you. Bush has seriously damaged the image of the US abroad. I for one hope that the next administration will manage to imrove this, and I have faith that with time it will happen, 'cause the US is a great place!

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 12): Oh, great, another article about the French on Fox news...

My first thought as well when I saw this thread.

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 13): Actually it doesn't matter that he is French, because he just expressed what the large majority in the world thinks about this issue.

Exactly.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 28): Personally I dont care ,, I love the A330 and I think the Airforce bought a great system ... just a little gratitude would be nice.

I don't really get you... what you want a blittle gratitude for exactly? Not knocking you AGM100, it's just I honestly have no idea what you would expect gratitude for and from whom exactly? And by this minister stating something that is a recognised FACT by most people around the world, what brings you to want gratitude?

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 32): The French would all be eating sauerkraut and speaking German in Paris right now if the US hadn't saved France from the Nazis.

Oh please just drop that bloody foolish a.net line, please...

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 48): For what, and for how long? For World War II? You still want them fawning over us for that. 60 years ago. They showed their gratitude to us for that, and they will always be grateful for what we did to help liberate their nation from the Nazis

Well said Falcon

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 6): I guess our reputation would be better if Saddam was still in power .... oh well maybe he is right after all.

It would be, and we would be as safe as we are today, and about 100,000 people would still be alive.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 48): For what, and for how long? For World War II? You still want them fawning over us for that. 60 years ago.

No.!... for our technological , business and financial cooperation with them. I dont ask the French to thank us for any thing to do with WWII . I just expect better from a government who we trade with , bank with and treat as equals on many fronts. They have the right to disagree with us , and I did not see our government embargoing them or cutting trade ..which I would not have supported. Quite the contrary has happened , we continue to treat them as allies and partners and we should. I just get a little pissed when a government official says this kind of stuff .. and only a week after we just showed them that we are not prejudiced against trading with them at all.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 48): You aren't looking for gratitude, AGM. You're looking for 1. A free pass from France for whatever we do,

So your OK with a trading partner saying that our "magic" is gone. ? "Magic" ? ..BRAVO SIERRA ... hard work .. risk taking and adventuress Americans are what has made us great. Your defending a guy who thinks that freaking Micky mouse is the reason we are who we are .. I am glad to be in my position on this one Falcon.

Sadly , I actually think the guy is right anyway. The world is different now , but it is not to do with Iraq . It is more to do with the Strengthening EU and their ability to be bold about differences with the US. The end of the cold war and the unification of Europe are powerful actions that have changed the world. The EU is now flexing its muscles and it will continue to so ... Iraq was just the reason to make the move.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 46): when we selected a flag for our state it could have been any damn thing we wanted but it was this:

so that, when you travel to France, you have to put your state-flag on everything !      
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Quoting Banco (Reply 49): Only if you are spectacularly ignorant of naval power could you even begin to believe France was "THE world power" as you put it. It was nowhere near.

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You are right in regard to actual facts, but totally and absolutely wrong at the same time. France in French eyes WAS the World-Power. The rise and fall of Napoleon I was NOT a coincidence but the logical consequence. What about "La Grande Armee" ? can you show me any other nation on earth which named its army "The Grand Army" ? In strict strategic terms, the French dominance was terminated in 1815. But French as dominating language retained its rank on the Continent deeply into the 20th Century. The Prussian Kings adored and spoke French and not English. The higher society in Czarist Russia spoke German and French and not English. The Bank of the Turkish Empire was "Banque Ottomane" and NOT Ottoman Bank. And French was the language of fashion, of diplomacy etc, and what has come of that ? The language of the cooks !    
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Quoting AGM100 (Reply 54): Sadly , I actually think the guy is right anyway. The world is different now , but it is not to do with Iraq . It is more to do with the Strengthening EU and their ability to be bold about differences with the US. The end of the cold war and the unification of Europe are powerful actions that have changed the world. The EU is now flexing its muscles and it will continue to so ... Iraq was just the reason to make the move.

So your presumption is that all us evil europeans were just looking for an opportunity to harm the USA and the totally bogus Iraq invasion was merely that opportunity?

Despite the fact that Blair (Britain), Aznar (Spain) and Berlusconi (Italy) openly rejected any joint EU position against the invasion, while Germany, France and others (like the vast majority of the global populations and governments) had been critical of the Bush position right from the start?

Despite the fact that the justified Afghanistan invasion was considered legitimate and found very little protest, even though our presumable anti-americanism would have found a much "better" opportunity there?

Anybody who even marginally watched european politics during that phase or who informed himself even superficially knows that your theory is totally inconsistent with what happened back then.

Sorry, but the only way one could come to such a weird conclusion would be rampant paranoia and xenophobia.

In fact the meager merits of the White House and Pentagon case for the Iraq invasion had been intensely discussed and examined over here and most people (including most governments) simply found it severely lacking. That many of your domestic american media had to issue apologies for their own overly tame and insufficient reporting could have told you that maybe your information was a little incomplete.

Fact is that the Iraq invasion was rejected overwhelmingly on its lacking merits, not on grounds of the mythical anti-americanism which you're so fond of. That your own media did a bad job of providing the same information to you which we had even back then is really deplorable. But that your lacking information now makes you suspicious of our motives is really backwards in more than just one respect.   

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 55): France in French eyes WAS the World-Power.

Oh, I see what you are getting at. I thought you were talking about the facts not the perception. Apologies.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 56): So your presumption is that all us evil europeans were just looking for an opportunity to harm the USA and the totally bogus Iraq invasion was merely that opportunity?

No one said evil Klaus ,, its business and power and as I see it a normal path of the power balance that goes on throughout mans history.
This is about moving monetary balances and trading partners ..this is about oil and wealth and the rise of new super powers.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 58): No one said evil Klaus ,, its business and power and as I see it a normal path of the power balance that goes on throughout mans history. This is about moving monetary balances and trading partners ..this is about oil and wealth and the rise of new super powers.

No, your weird theory is completely inconsistent with what actually happened - and you could easily verify that fact, if you were actually interested. But it appears that wallowing in xenophobic paranoia is your preference, so by no means ever verify your theory - it would immediately crumble and turn to dust.

I'm still waiting for you to respond to my questions above, by the way!

Klaus , not sure how you are getting xenophobic out of my comments .. but whatever. I would like to able to discuss ideas without getting classified just for once one here.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 56): So your presumption is that all us evil europeans were just looking for an opportunity to harm the USA and the totally bogus Iraq invasion was merely that opportunity?

Not evil ... self interested ... human

Yes in some ways I can see how ministers from the EU could plausibly see a avenue to split with the US. Why not , strategically they could envision a world with the US at odds with them. Their are new powers to be aligned with , their are emerging markets that need tending.

Their is Merritt to the argument that the the administration was to bold and moved to far when taking on the EU over Iraq. But Iraq has changed and now act two is in effect , act two is which way Iraq will align. As a strategic plan ... the US on the decline offers opportunities to the EU to pick up the peaces their.

So , as I see the world ... as a business man .. everything has a purpose and a effect. It can always be argued that going into Iraq was the wrong thing to do .. because it was a safe bet . Just like know one on here can say that it was the wrong thing to do because they do not know how history will play out.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 54): So your OK with a trading partner saying that our "magic" is gone. ? "Magic" ? ..BRAVO SIERRA ... hard work .. risk taking and adventuress Americans are what has made us great. Your defending a guy who thinks that freaking Micky mouse is the reason we are who we are .. I am glad to be in my position on this one Falcon.

Well, we certainly have a Micky Mouse administration, that's for sure, and it's the reason for the statement, AGM.

No, I have no problem with it. It happens with Americans towards the French all the time-you don't seem to mind that. In fact, I'll be you think it's damn funny the other way around.

Doesn't bother me in the least, because as far as I'm concerned, he's dead on:

"Speaking at the launch of a Forum for New Diplomacy in Paris, Kouchner said the United States will never be the country it was before the Bush presidency and will have to work to repair its reputation, especially since the 2003 U.S.-led invasion of Iraq"

I agree with every word of that.

It's not so much that Mr. Kuechner is not entitled to his point of view, or that it isn't shared by a lot of people that rubs us the wrong way. It's the casual disrespect that grates.

I mean, he could have gotten up in public and said "George Bush is wrong and Iraq was a horrible blunder." and I'm quite sure that a lot of us would have agreed with him and reminded him that the electorate here is striving manfully to remedy all that.

But stating your mind to your associates and even people you think a lot of in an open and frank discussion and casually insulting people in public are two very different things, even if you go on and try to establish a factual basis for what you've just said-which is sort of establishing your cause after the fact. It's akin to post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy in a way.

Perhaps, like some other folks, Kuechner was looking for another fifteen minutes of fame in the way that so many others have trod. Well, nevermind. What's said is said, and people will remember the bad smell of this when he comes around looking for something or other .

That's the view from here. Mother always said if you can't say anything nice it's best to say nothing at all. I'm guessing the lesson was lost.

We've no shortage of horse's asses in politics here-Steve King for one-and that's why we can easily recognize them when we see them.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 62): That's the view from here. Mother always said if you can't say anything nice it's best to say nothing at all. I'm guessing the lesson was lost.

Then it's fair to say it's been lost in both directions, because many ignorant people in this nation have been shitting on the French since before the Iraq invasion.

And there's another saying or two; "Turnabout is fair play": "Payback is a bitch, ain't it?", and "You reap what you sow".

And pray tell ,, how is this reputation to be mended ? Answer .. it will never be and our reputation is no worse now than it has ever been in the eyes of the French. It is just easier to vocalize it and quite sheik and humours on the streets of Europe now. In Europe in the 80's & 90's people talked shit about us then too .. remember Reagan , and huge anti Nuke marches ? Burning effigies of uncle SAM and all that ... remember ? Difference now ? The Democratic party in our own country now believes them and is helping them vocalize the madness.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 64): In Europe in the 80's & 90's people talked shit about us then too ..

Maybe. There's always been some sort of rivalry and lack of understanding of both side's politics, but just that: politics.
It's probably worse now than it's ever been because of GWB.

There's always been friendship between the people of the two continents, though. And it continues.

Kouchner's words never meant to undermine the US as a country, they were meant to state what, in the opinion of his government, the situation of the US' foreign policy was and what it lead to.

There is nothing in there that is meant to offend Americans or America.

People have to stop taking personally any comment about their government, especially when it comes from other politicians.

That's what he says in short:
The US' image in most parts of the world has been damaged, and the next government will be left with the task to reverse the trend.

I can't say as he's not right, but it's true that it is a superfluous comment as most people in America know it already and will react, I believe.

And BTW, he would never say something like this if he was happy about it. He and his government know all too well that the US and EU must speak of one voice if any progress is to be made to enforce the influence of the western world.

Quoting Banco (Reply 57): France in French eyes WAS the World-Power. Oh, I see what you are getting at. I thought you were talking about the facts not the perception. Apologies.

No reason for apology.
I however again realize that the Channel is in a way much broader than it looks on the map !      
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I see this whenever I travel from France to England. The nicest way to absorb that change is to travel via Jersey, which is right in between, even if geography-wise right off-coast the (French) Normandy.
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Quoting AGM100 (Reply 64): And pray tell ,, how is this reputation to be mended ?

Through treating our friends in Europe as equals, not vassels that are there simply to agree with us and do our bidding; by treating most of the civilized world the same way; by not having a Cowboy foreign policy based on threat, and being more willing to talk with our friends, not dictate to them.

Simply, by treating our friends and allies iwth some dignity and respect. I know that may be a foreign concept to the far right, but it has worked for us for decades before this president arrived.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 64): it will never be and our reputation is no worse now than it has ever been in the eyes of the French.

It's a lot worse, or did you not read those numbers listed above. This president wasted the good will of almost the entire world after 9/11, with his arrogance, paranoia and scare tactics. The war in Iraq severly damaged our good name, as we fought a war over weapons that never existed.

It isn't the U.S. they dislike-it's this president, vice-president, and their whole arrogant approach to foreign policy and how they treat the rest of the world.

Our rep will almost immediately get better on Jan 20th, next year, as most of this nation and most of this world breathe a sigh of relief and say "he's FINALLY gone!"

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 37): Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 36): The surrender and run thing is a popular French stereotype in the USA. They don't? They've caused most of the messes we've been in. Dividing up the Middle East, Vietnam, WW2,

Well on the surrender aspect, after Verdun the French had built up enough of a reputation to withstand a fair few surrenders without that tag being half appropriate for those with a smidgin of perspective.

On the messes, while the leaving aside WW2 which had a few more participants than France, the French did have a considerable role in the ME and Vietnam, but a reasonable case can be made that however much of a mess the French made of them, the US when it intervened did infiinitely worse. So if I was American, I don't think I would be criticising the French over Vietnam and the ME.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 48): You aren't looking for gratutude, AGM. You're looking for 1. A free pass from France for whatever we do, and to not ever be critisized for it, and 2. For them to kiss our collective asses. You think it's fair game to critisize France for their shortcomings, but God help them, or anyone else, with people like you, if they point out ours. That's a hypocritical double standard if I've ever seen one.

Brilliantly put. Wow.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 52): Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 32): The French would all be eating sauerkraut and speaking German in Paris right now if the US hadn't saved France from the Nazis. Oh please just drop that bloody foolish a.net line, please...

Well for all I know some French actually like sauerkraut and I certainly like the varied berry desert which is delicious and for which I can never remember the name. A bigger problem would be if there were lots of sour Krauts on this thread and that is far from the case. While there are also some balanced Americans there do seem to be a few sour ones too. So mayhap the US needs now to do a bit of "saving" at home, which is about what Mr K was suggesting - oui?

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 60): Klaus , not sure how you are getting xenophobic out of my comments

Simple: Your entire argumentation is based on nothing but the prejudice that europeans were somehow just waiting for an opportunity to stick it to the USA.

You are developing your entire theory on that basis, without letting any knowledge of the actual and much more complex real events get in the way.

You are starting at a judgment and a conclusion, and extrapolating wildly from there.


The much less spectacular reality is simply that almost nobody over here bought the pretenses for the Iraq war because contrary to most of the US public we already had information which made them look highly dubious. Unfortunately some european governments still went along, but that is already a clear indication that your whole theory is nonsense, if nothing else was.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 60): I would like to able to discuss ideas without getting classified just for once one here.

You are not "discussing ideas", you are merely spreading prejudices. If you were actually interested in ideas, you would respond to my questions in the posts above, for instance.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 60): Yes in some ways I can see how ministers from the EU could plausibly see a avenue to split with the US. Why not , strategically they could envision a world with the US at odds with them. Their are new powers to be aligned with , their are emerging markets that need tending.

That has basically become the result of the White House madness, but you are confusing cause and effect here.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 62): It's not so much that Mr. Kuechner is not entitled to his point of view, or that it isn't shared by a lot of people that rubs us the wrong way. It's the casual disrespect that grates.

"Us"? Your pluralis majestatis gives a good view on where the problem actually lies...!   

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 67): Through treating our friends in Europe as equals, not vassels that are there simply to agree with us and do our bidding; by treating most of the civilized world the same way; by not having a Cowboy foreign policy based on threat, and being more willing to talk with our friends, not dictate to them. Simply, by treating our friends and allies iwth some dignity and respect. I know that may be a foreign concept to the far right, but it has worked for us for decades before this president arrived.

  

Quoting Baroque (Reply 68): Well for all I know some French actually like sauerkraut

Indeed: Choucroute Garnie a l'Alsacienne is one of the most distinctive specialties in France!

Quoting Baroque (Reply 68): A bigger problem would be if there were lots of sour Krauts on this thread

  

Quoting Klaus (Reply 69): Quoting Baroque (Reply 68): Well for all I know some French actually like sauerkraut Indeed: Choucroute Garnie a l'Alsacienne is one of the most distinctive specialties in France!

Sounds quite good in that link although go easy on the garlic for me. But the quantities, are they planning to feed an army?

But what is that mixture of berries called?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 70): But what is that mixture of berries called?

Can't say... I don't know what you're referring to...

Quoting Klaus (Reply 71): Quoting Baroque (Reply 70): But what is that mixture of berries called? Can't say... I don't know what you're referring to...

Rote Grütze was what I meant. For some reason I have a blank about remembering the name - probably carried away by the taste. So much for German cuisine being restricted to the previously discussed material, sausages and pastry.
A recipe here but the version I had did not have the berries buried under cream:
http://www.recipezaar.com/301

Meanwhile back at the ranch, it appears that the financial problems are making the foreign policy issues take a bit of a back seat. With banks doing a fair imitation of fish afflicted by water from the Love Canal it looks as if domestic matter should be a fairly major concern for some time.

As far as one can tell, it also appears that globalization is alive and well in the financial markets in that most economies seem to be suffering the effects of the US mortgage market. In the case of Aus, it has also brought on some problems that were there, but have become apparent due to those problems. Especially major varieties of short selling and loans against shareholding. No doubt both will be present in other markets but our own woes have been dominating our headlines.

Overall, it does look as if the sub-prime crisis will cause a few other Augean stables to be cleaned out, but probably not in a day as should be the case! If they do get cleaned out, I wonder who will have to play the role of Augeas as he might have a nasty fate in store, but so far nobody looks at all like Hercules so perhaps "Augeas" is safe.

Bernard Kouchner is an arrogant blunder who lives on his "renommée" from the "french doctors" image..
He's walking from diplomatic gaffe to diplomatic gaffe and has not much credibility with other foreign ministers.
Yes he's famous in France -but that means nothing in a country where the most respected individual is a former tennis-player and a (very bad ) singer named Yannick Noah..(based on latest media-research and requesting thousands of French "what is your most respected French-man"..)
France was never really good in choosing great secretary of states - a big difference to it's German neighbour,where this position is considered a top man's job requesting first rate credentials.
Bashing Anglo-Saxons is national sport in France -sometimes it's becoming ridiculous -but c'est la vie ...

Quoting Baroque (Reply 72): Rote Grütze was what I meant.

Ah, okay - that's really a delicious dessert!   

Quoting Baroque (Reply 72): So much for German cuisine being restricted to the previously discussed material, sausages and pastry.

Indeed - but I think it almost always pays off to investigate a bit further into regional cuisines.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 69): Your entire argumentation is based on nothing but the prejudice that europeans were somehow just waiting for an opportunity to stick it to the USA.

Not stick it to the USA ... just ally themselves with the power bases other than the US , UK , Australia , Japan and many other nations who saw the merrit of getting rid of Saddam. Germany / France now find themselves closer allied with Russia and China than they do the US. Allied may not be the right word , but playing in the middle somewhere is better for business anyway.

I really dont have hard feelings about it Klaus , it is the way it goes. I still believe that world is better off without Saddam . And I believe a better form of government will take hold in Iraq . The people of Iraq have a chance to to improve their future. Germany and France could have helped do that and it would have made it so much better.

I envision a coalition of governments who believe in the rule of law and freedom for all. Imagine how powerful this force could be .... imagine the effect it could have in Sudan for instance. Sudan is a good example how the coalition of the US Allies and EU could have fixed that situation easily a long time ago. But without help from the EU the US can not act alone against China and the Islamists creating hell their.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 69): That has basically become the result of the White House madness, but you are confusing cause and effect here.

Madness ? I know how I envision the world after 911 ... defeating the Taliban and helping Afghanistan establish a sane government for its people. Getting rid of Saddam and putting Iraq on the path of government that flys in face of the Islamists. I will agree that it is a aggressive plan indeed ... and I have said before on here that I am not sure it will work. But the alternative was basically to sit back and let Saddam wait us out ... and possibly finance or act against us or allies as he became more desperate.

Thats it ... that is my view of it.

Does xenophobia mean that I cant come drink good German beer next month??   If so then I am not xenophobic and President Bush is a madman !

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 75): Getting rid of Saddam and putting Iraq on the path of government that flys in face of the Islamists. I will agree that it is a aggressive plan indeed ... and I have said before on here that I am not sure it will work. But the alternative was basically to sit back and let Saddam wait us out ... and possibly finance or act against us or allies as he became more desperate.

I am really not doing this (transferring files is what I am doing) but Saddam was no longer a threat to anyone except those living in between the no fly zones.

Far from securing Iraq from Islamists, the US has given it to Islamists, just most of them are Shia (rather than the Sunnis who have also been rampant thanks to turfing out the army after asking it nicely to surrender) so the US chooses not to think these Shia are Islamists while screaming blue murder at their brothers over the border in Iran.

I don't think anyone wanting a mess in Iraq could have managed one so comprehensively if the WERE trying. Amazing what failing to take advice can achieve.

Gotta tend my files.  

Quoting Baroque (Reply 76): Saddam was no longer a threat to anyone

Well except his own minority populations and Kuwait , Israel , Jordan , and the US. The same could be said for the Sudanese .. they are know threat to the EU .... Its not our problem . Genocide ?? Hey Bono did a concert about it ?? see ..we care.
But dont mention our new good "friends" in Beijing.... Damn George Bush! ... see we dont like him either China, were with you guys !


I know I know I making all that stuff up Baroque but it may make a good novel someday ! Get to tending those files man
 

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 77): Quoting Baroque (Reply 76): Saddam was no longer a threat to anyone Well except his own minority populations and Kuwait , Israel , Jordan , and the US.

Except for two things.

1. That was not what I said -

Quoting Baroque (Reply 76): but Saddam was no longer a threat to anyone except those living in between the no fly zones.

was what I wrote. But make no mistake, he was not only a menace to the Shia in that area, he was also dangerous to his own Sunni compatriots, just a bit less so.

2. He was no danger at all to Kuwait, Israel (ESPECIALLY), Jordan and the US.

What in heavens name was he going to do to the US? With too small an invasion army, the US did for him in what 2 weeks or was it 3? Jordan depended on him and was not endangered by him. Israel, well yes, I have to concede that they are so weak, a modest summer breeze could knock them over - you must be joking.

And well, it has finally been officially discovered in the US what everyone else knew in 2001, Saddam was not involved in the Sept 11 stuff in NY and Washington.

If you wanted to help the Sudanese, not attacking Iraq would have been a good start. Attacking Iraq just makes it look as if you will attack any old nation that contains an Islamic population if you don't like it. I can hear the protests starting now.

"We would never do that", come the protests. But that is what the actions of the past 7 years have made the Islamic world think is the game plan of the US. Sometimes it is not only what you do, it is what others think you do.

So IF you feel that attacking Afghanistan and then Iraq and threatening Iran that you will huff and puff does not justify that conclusion, just compare how justified it is compared with thinking that Saddam would have cooperated with Osama. That man hated Osama. Osama was all the things that Saddam feared, he was never going to help the guy.

By the way, I think Zimbabwe is a bigger scandal than Darfur. And probably some of the oil states of West Africa are also worse than Darfur. But most of them sell oil to the US whereas Sudan sells theirs to China. Big difference.

Found the reason I could not find a directory was that I had never created it!!! Pictures of oil source rocks.

Since this threads is eroding into a bash the US, bash the French thread, it is now locked.