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AGM100
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:39 pm



Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 48):
"Fight (the terrorists) there so we don't have to fight them here".

Yep, and their is no doubt our boys did that and are doing that. Something important has happened , in Iraq we and the Iraqis share a comon enemy now. They certainly may not like our presence their , but I believe they hate terrorists far more.

For the record , I do not prescribe to the fight them their so we dont fight them here slogan. We will fight them here eventually , but we have fought their ideas on the streets of Iraq and have IMO scored a victory in this long war.
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DocLightning
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:38 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 50):
Something important has happened , in Iraq we and the Iraqis share a comon enemy now.

Bush?

Before we came in, Hussein was far too much of an egomaniac to allow Al Qaeda in. He was many things, but a terrorist no. He was way too proud to be sneaking around with box cutters and 767's. He fancied himself a military giant and he wanted to fight wars THAT way.

We made this mess. It kills me to think that our brave men and women are over there fighting and dying to just put us in more danger than we were in before they went there.
-Doc Lightning-

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luv2fly
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:47 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 51):
Bush?

Before we came in, Hussein was far too much of an egomaniac to allow Al Qaeda in. He was many things, but a terrorist no. He was way too proud to be sneaking around with box cutters and 767's. He fancied himself a military giant and he wanted to fight wars THAT way.

We made this mess. It kills me to think that our brave men and women are over there fighting and dying to just put us in more danger than we were in before they went there.

You hit the nail on the head. Bush went in as judge, jury and executioner!
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AGM100
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:53 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 51):
It kills me to think that our brave men and women are over there fighting and dying to just put us in more danger than we were in before they went there.

More danger then when we were doing nothing ? That did not work either... and its only your opinion. Thank god I have not spoke to a soldier who agrees with you. And if you dont believe that Saddam was a terrorist then we are on different planets. He was a complete total dictator who killed anyone who disagreed with him ,, including entire provincial populations... not terrorism ?

Besides the simple fact is this .. We went in .. we knew they would come ... they did .. we kicked their asses . Next ?
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RJdxer
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:55 pm



Quoting NorCal (Reply 49):
The tactic didn't work in Vietnam, so why would it work now.

???? Which battle did we lose in Vietnam. It certainly wasn't a military one.

Quoting NorCal (Reply 49):
Marching into Iraq doesn't prevent terrorists, it just gives them a ton of targets to practice against.

And yet somehow we are winning.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 50):
They certainly may not like our presence their , but I believe they hate terrorists far more.

Correct. And it's not so much they don't like our presence as it is they want to do it their own way. Which, after we have turned over the last province, we should let them do.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 51):
It kills me to think that our brave men and women are over there fighting and dying to just put us in more danger than we were in before they went there.

How many attacks have occured against U.S. targets outside of the combat zones since 9/11 as compared to before? You're going to have to define danger since I count 0.
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StuckInCA
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:00 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 54):
Which battle did we lose in Vietnam. It certainly wasn't a military one.

What did we win in Vietnam?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 54):
And yet somehow we are winning.

What are we winning in Iraq? A cookie?
 
AGM100
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:16 pm



Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 48):
WMDs?

550 Tones of Yellow Cake just moved out of Iraq .. can only find a few "buried" news stories on it and certainly no posts on here. Amazing

If POS Bush was as bad as you say , why didn't he go have his photo taken with dump trucks full of yellow cake ?? O man that would be classic , maybe invite Valerie and Joe to pose in the freaking convertible. !
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
StuckInCA
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:28 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 56):
550 Tones of Yellow Cake just moved out of Iraq .. can only find a few "buried" news stories on it and certainly no posts on here. Amazing

I think you're making more out of the yellowcake than you should. It wasn't just found. It was just moved. From the linked article:

"Israeli warplanes bombed a reactor project at the site in 1981. Later, U.N. inspectors documented and safeguarded the yellowcake, which had been stored in aging drums and containers since before the 1991 Gulf War. There was no evidence of any yellowcake dating from after 1991, the official said. "

We've been guarding the yellowcake since sometime after we ousted the Iraqi government for fear that insurgents would get their hands on it. There's no evidence that Saddam had done anything with it since before the first Gulf War.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 56):
If POS Bush was as bad as you say , why didn't he go have his photo taken with dump trucks full of yellow cake ??

I think Bush would have looked pretty silly posing in front of a bunch of barrels of yellowcake that have been known about and documented for at least 17 years.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/05/world/main4235028.shtml
 
Flighty
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:47 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 53):
He was a complete total dictator who killed anyone who disagreed with him ,, including entire provincial populations... not terrorism ?

By that logic we will need to invade over 30 countries. are you really serious... that is a lame excuse for killing so many people against their will.

"Hey USA, my government is quite oppressive. Why don't you come here and kill me. Thanks"

Never happened.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:48 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 44):
Falcon you know how I feel.. Saved them is not the words I would use but our effort their is not without merit.

It's completely without out merit, and the whole thing from the beginning ran against everything this nation-the United States that is-is supposed to stand for. A big superpower invading, without provocation, a thrid-world nation, and plunging it into 5 years of war, terrorism and misery. And the end isn't in sight.

Our troops have done as good a job as they can, despite the foul-ups of their political and military leaders who got us into this idiocy. It's not their fault. But to say it has merit, I simply cannot buy that.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 45):
Probably not. I sure saw a lot of them happy to see us when we toppled the statue and when they voted for the first time. Of course we won't talk about that though.

Why not? But they didn't ask for our help, did they. Saddam being gone is no loss to the world by any stretch, but it wasn't about Saddam, was it? At least that wasn't the reason Imperious Leader gave us when he launched this idiocy.

And, yes, if you said that, you'd get the shit kicked out of you, because you're making it sound like THEY owe US. Which is, by the way, what you think. WE owe THEM, not the other way around.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 45):
Saddam and his kids were horrible and killed how many?

And pray tell, how many have died because of our invasion? Maybe the same, or more, than Saddam would have killed in that time period. How is that any better? It's not. But, let's not talk about THAT....

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 45):
Quit the codepink talking points already.

I have no idea what that even means, so it affects my statements about you either way.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 45):


We didn't invade a nation, we invaded a dictatorship that was perpetrated by a tyrant.

WE DIDN'T INVADE A NATION?

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

You're joking right? We didn't invade a nation. No, of course not. We just occupied them from one end to the other, and have settled in for a indefinite stay. That's called an INVASION.

Your off the deep end, NIK, and I don't mean maybe. I'm laughing my ass off, but you can imagine what I'd call you to your face if I could. I can't here, because I don't want another 30 day sentence in the Anet celler.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 45):
We are not going to cut and run just to appease codepink or the far left.

Yeah, big man, saying that from home. Go to the front and say that. Or, are you going to let others fight for you? That's a cowardly thing to say.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 45):
Let's summarize, McCain will withdraw at a timetable that is safe for everyone

Let's summarize a bit more intelligently: if President McCain were to be told by the Iraqi government that they want us out, he would do so. Same with President Obama. Now, you REALLY want to piss the world off, let's follow what you want, and thell them to go screw themselves, we'll leave when we're damn good and ready.

Then we go from "invaders"--->"occupiers"---->"imperalists". Because if we stay beyond when that government says they want us, then that nation will turn on us with a vengance.

You want to get more Americans killed? Your arrogant nonsense is the way to do it. Fortunately, the days of such arrogance in the White House are dwindling, and this nation will be better off when those who started this mess are gone. Can you go with them?

You are a throwback to the type of neo-conservative that ran us scared of everything in the 50's and 60's. You are an ultra-nationalists, who thinks we have the right to do as we please, when we please, to whomever we please, and to hell what they think about what we do to them.

You are the quintessential "Ugly American".
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AGM100
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:02 pm



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 57):
think you're making more out of the yellowcake than you should. It wasn't just found. It was just moved. From the linked article:

I am not making a big deal at all , I was kidding . I understand the story of the yellow cake perfectly . But the average Bush hater probably thinks that Saddam didn't even have any from reading the press .. and listening to special agent .. Wilson .. que "Get Smart" music

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 57):
think Bush would have looked pretty silly posing in front of a bunch of barrels of yellowcake that have been known about and documented for at least 17 years.

Your right about that , but if they wanted to do it and spin it for the average person they could make a big deal out of it. It would just be fun ,, dont you think !!
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RJdxer
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:30 pm



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 55):
What did we win in Vietnam?

We won every major battle U.S. troops were engaged in, including the Tet Offensive. What we lost was the media war here at home, same as we have in this war. It is no longer fashionable for our media to portray any victory as such. Only to play up every negative that can be unearthed or conjured up. WW2 is only regarded as the last "good" war because that is the way the media portrayed it. Had they used the same reporting techniques they use today, there would be grave doubt about the outcome.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 55):
What are we winning in Iraq? A cookie?

A stable democracy where there was once an unstable dictator in charge. The fact that it sits right in the middle of some important territory should not go unnoticed as well.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
StuckInCA
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:54 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 61):
We won every major battle U.S. troops were engaged in, including the Tet Offensive

I suppose that may be the case, but at the end of the day, what did we really win?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 61):
A stable democracy where there was once an unstable dictator in charge. The fact that it sits right in the middle of some important territory should not go unnoticed as well.

That's not why we claimed to be going there. And by claiming that we've won stability in "important" territory do you mean that the point was to claim bases for ourselves? Oil?

Unfortunately I'd say the "stable democracy" is pretty arguable although things seem better wrt sectarian violence than they did a year ago.
 
Flighty
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:53 pm



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 62):
Unfortunately I'd say the "stable democracy" is pretty arguable although things seem better wrt sectarian violence than they did a year ago.

Who cares anyway? Isn't it about time our attention-deficit disorder nation got distracted by something else? Wont we just forget about Iraq in a couple of years? This is all about the USA anyhow, our neurotic self-suspicion. Iraq, ironically, had nothing to do with the Iraq War, they were just bystanders in a domestic US cultural entertainment war, JMO. It was like solar flares reaching out from the Sun. They are not aiming at anything! Much like our military, aimlessly reaching out from a core of near infinite power!


Soon enough, we will have a new crazy idea, such as Burma or collecting old tires, or chasing bunny rabbits. We will forget all about Iraq. Who cares anyway. Obviously not us. We will do whatever tickles our fancy, because we have 11 aircraft carriers and total military superiority. We can do anything, so why bother justifying? Why bother lying? Oh I have an idea, how about another Drug War against those who supply us with drugs that we like to take.  bored   bored 

Saddam did nothing to us, was not capable of doing anything, and we had no legal rationale to go there. Bush is liable for prosecution for more than 4,000 murders of US soldiers. Read about it in Prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi's "The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder."
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:27 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 45):
Saddam and his kids were horrible and killed how many? We did what had to be done. Quit the codepink talking points already.

Saddam and his terrible kids were a stabilizing force at a crossroads of Sunni and Shia chaos. You think Iran would be nearly as assertive right now if he were still next door? Think again. We created a power vacuum, albeit one that has made the Saudis very happy since we are now required to directly engage Iran.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 45):
The power meter on your tin foil hat is rising again.

You're the one with the tin foil hat on if you actually believe all of the uninformed neocon talking points regarding what stability and democracy in the ME actually mean.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 54):
How many attacks have occured against U.S. targets outside of the combat zones since 9/11 as compared to before? You're going to have to define danger since I count 0.

How many years passed between the first WTC bombing and 9/11? You're going to have to define how your comparison is anything other than anecdotally significant. For what it' s worth, there have been several problems around US embassies and consulates, most recently Tuesday, when our Istanbul embassy was shot at. It's also worth noting that prior to Iraq, Turkey was one of our most reliable allies in the region. Thanks to the bungling of the administration, we are now unsure of where they stand and anti-American sentiment is running high.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 61):

A stable democracy where there was once an unstable dictator in charge. The fact that it sits right in the middle of some important territory should not go unnoticed as well.

A stable democracy is all well and good until the next president of Iraq is the right hand man of a Shia cleric who might as well have been the Ayatollah's college roommate. Then we'll really see what kind of tangible results all of this "democracy" has provided our security interests where there once was an unfortunate but convenient stabilizing force in the region.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 63):
Read about it in Prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi's "The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder."

Sounds like bunk to me. Virtually the entire Congress and the American people signed onto it. You can't lay blame on the occupant of the White House.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
RJdxer
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:17 am



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 62):
I suppose that may be the case, but at the end of the day, what did we really win?

We didn't win but the neither the NVA or Viet Cong beat us, we beat ourselves much as we are still trying to do today. We are experts at snatching victory out of our own jaws.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 62):
That's not why we claimed to be going there.

Yes it is. You need to read the State of the Union speech in 2003 and the Presidents speech just before military action took place.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 62):
And by claiming that we've won stability in "important" territory do you mean that the point was to claim bases for ourselves? Oil?

Only if the Iraqis want us there once they have their own security under control and yes to ensure the free flow of oil. We will do the same if the Iranians are stupid enough to try and block the strait. And there is nothing wrong with that. If the Iranians were stupid enough to try it I doubt the Chinese or India would back them on that play.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 64):
Then we'll really see what kind of tangible results all of this "democracy" has provided our security interests where there once was an unfortunate but convenient stabilizing force in the region.

I think you under estimate the love loss between the two.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 64):
Sounds like bunk to me. Virtually the entire Congress and the American people signed onto it. You can't lay blame on the occupant of the White House.

Must be drinking that carbonated water again...I agree.
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Aaron747
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:10 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 65):

I think you under estimate the love loss between the two.

On the contrary, I think the hard-line elements in the Iranian government couldn't be happier that Saddam is gone and are willing to forgive all since the Baathists have had their power considerably diminished. I've yet to hear a statement from the new Iraqi government directly condemning various evidence of Iranian involvement in insurgent actions going back two years, have you heard something I haven't?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
RJdxer
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:07 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 66):
have you heard something I haven't?

Outside of some militia groups I haven't heard the government praising their interference either. Malaki and his group have power. They are no t going to want to share it with the Iranians nor are they going to be their lap dogs.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
Flighty
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:12 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 64):
You can't lay blame on the occupant of the White House.

Can't I? Sure I can, he should be accountable for issuing these illegal commands. I never supported this dumb fake "war" and neither did Barack Obama or Ted Kennedy. It turned out those men were 100% right. I am greatly ashamed that the American people re-elected Bush in 2004. But again, many "American people" were totally against that.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 66):
On the contrary, I think the hard-line elements in the Iranian government couldn't be happier that Saddam is gone

I agree, we are certainly great friends. With our help, Iran (and Al Qaeda) have become 10x more powerful than they ever were before. It is hilariously easy for the intelligent Iranians to outwit and outmaneuver the slow witted USA diplomats. Iran uses some very old tricks to make us do things to serve their interests. Currently, Iran hopes the USA+Israel attacks their soil. Bush is eager to help the Iranians by launching a small attack. Then Iran has the moral high ground over the USA in the eyes of 1.4 billion Muslims. Game over, USA. If we are that stupid then we deserve to lose.
 
baroque
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:46 pm



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 62):

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 61):
We won every major battle U.S. troops were engaged in, including the Tet Offensive

I suppose that may be the case, but at the end of the day, what did we really win?

The US won most battles (I think every is a bit of an exaggeration) that it thought it was fighting. Although, the VC and the N Viet army lost those battles that the US cares to think were important, they were off elsewhere winning the battles that they thought to be important. Such as totally undermining the civil (and military power) in S Vietnam.

The result was clear, you think the US lost the war at home (frankly that smacks a bit of the German apologists for WW I) whereas the US actually lost a war it never even knew it was fighting IN Vietnam.

This is not OT as exactly the same probably applies in Iraq. Just as the US appears to have had no clear idea of why it was going into Iraq, it still does not know why it is staying there - completing the job is the usual statement. Well the job was never defined in the first place.

Meanwhile, I doubt if any of us knows who the US is really fighting there, let alone what their aims are.

Happy thoughts!
 
RJdxer
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:06 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 69):
The US won most battles (I think every is a bit of an exaggeration) that it thought it was fighting.

If you would care to name a battle above company size engagements which can be fought from ambush, I'd be willing to listen.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 69):
they were off elsewhere winning the battles that they thought to be important.

Their sole aim was too outlast us because as early as 1966 it became obvious to them that we could not win with the strategy we were employing and that already spoiled malcontents at home were doing the propaganda work for them.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 69):
The result was clear, you think the US lost the war at home

Yes, through poor strategy, micromanagement from the White House, and spoiled children of the early baby boomer generation. They didn't call it the "Me" generation for nothing. Our whole country is still geared around it and it won't change until the last one of them is dead. Thanks in part to public opinion, or fear of it, we stopped bombing North Vietnam for 4 years. We allowed them sanctuary in neighboring countries where they could rest and refit as well as bring down supplies. That same type of decision is now having the effect of extending the war in Afghanistan since we won't go over the border into Pakistan and get the Taliban where they rest. We never ever threatened to attack North Vietnam on the ground. Finally, we allowed ourselves to believe we were beaten militarily by a news media that propagandized every small victory by the enemy and demonized our political and military leadership at home. Just like they are doing today. The North Vietnamese didn't win anything until two years after we left, and that was by violating a treaty they had signed.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
baroque
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:57 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 70):
Yes, through poor strategy, micromanagement from the White House, and spoiled children of the early baby boomer generation. They didn't call it the "Me" generation for nothing. Our whole country is still geared around it and it won't change until the last one of them is dead. Thanks in part to public opinion, or fear of it, we stopped bombing North Vietnam for 4 years. We allowed them sanctuary in neighboring countries where they could rest and refit as well as bring down supplies. That same type of decision is now having the effect of extending the war in Afghanistan since we won't go over the border into Pakistan and get the Taliban where they rest.

To which I can but reply - exactly for example:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_did_Germany_blame_for_losing_World_War_1
A few perceptive commentators knew that the remarkable thing had been that Germany and its weak allies had managed to hold out for four years against a more powerful alliance.

The stab-in-the-back legend - a conspiracy theory that blamed defeat on subsersion on the "home front" - was popular on the hardline, nationalist right. Later, the Nazis mulcted this for all it was worth and much more besides.


History repeating. And soon another one to add.

You had lost the war in Vietnam. The hearts and minds had gone. No amount of bombing and company actions, division actions or army actions were going to bring them back. The more the fighting the more they were lost.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 70):
The North Vietnamese didn't win anything until two years after we left, and that was by violating a treaty they had signed.

And the Geneva Accords from 1954? They had been broken for decades. And what did the US do with them, refused to participate or agree. Not surprising if the N Viets felt free to do as they fancied.

Similar things are happening in Iraq. But while in denial over Vietnam, you probably will not notice.
 
Arrow
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:20 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 70):
Yes, through poor strategy, micromanagement from the White House, and spoiled children of the early baby boomer generation.

As one of those spoiled brats, I can't tell you how proud I am of that accomplishment -- though I think you give us far too much credit. Truth be known, misguided US foreign policy, based on an abysmal lack of knowledge and understanding of local politics in Asia, was the real culprit -- all we did was point it out.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 70):
Finally, we allowed ourselves to believe we were beaten militarily by a news media that propagandized every small victory by the enemy and demonized our political and military leadership at home. Just like they are doing today.

Another proud accomplishment. Call it the end of the age of innocence, when the murkier side of foreign policy misadventures finally gets exposed to the public. But again, you give us too much credit. It didn't work in time to prevent Iraq, and that's to the everlasting shame of both the mainstream media and a public more interested in the latest machinations of Britney et al..

The problem -- and it was there with Viet Nam as well -- is that for far too long the media and the public drank the kool-aid. They believed all the BS about domino theories and WMDs, and they trusted their politicians when they should have been roasting them. You think the media is responsible for "losing" the wars, but you've got it somewhat backwards. The media is responsible for cheerleading the rush into both wars. Pray that doesn't happen a third time.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
RJdxer
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:52 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 71):
History repeating. And soon another one to add.

Funny how when I use analogies to WW2 that is somehow not allowed.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 71):
The more the fighting the more they were lost.

BS. Had we pressed as hard as we could the North Vietnamese would have been destroyed.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 72):
As one of those spoiled brats, I can't tell you how proud I am of that accomplishment

I guess being more involved with yourself is something to be proud of in some worlds. Service to your country is considered just to menial. Enjoy the benefits at someone elses expense, follows right along the liberal line.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 72):
The problem -- and it was there with Viet Nam as well -- is that for far too long the media and the public drank the kool-aid.

Again, if the press had reported WW2 as they did Vietnam, or they have Iraq, and had spoiled brats like yourself populated the country in 1941 the outcome of that war would be in doubt.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
davestanKSAN
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:19 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 73):
Enjoy the benefits at someone elses expense, follows right along the liberal line.

Oh please, get over yourself. What about liberals in the military? Do they not count?

Dave
Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
 
Arrow
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:49 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 73):
I guess being more involved with yourself is something to be proud of in some worlds. Service to your country is considered just to menial. Enjoy the benefits at someone elses expense, follows right along the liberal line.

I can see that this is going to turn into a pi**ing match, but I consider what the "liberal" faction did in the 60s and 70s was of far more service to the country (and to the world) than the "conservative" faction that just went along with the BS. They accepted that 50,000 dead soldiers was an acceptable price to pay to support one corrupt regime in Viet Nam so another corrupt regime -- the commies of course -- couldn't gain power.

I'm not talking about the draftees and volunteers who put their lives on the line, I'm talking about the shameless pols who sent them there to do it and the gutless electorate that thinks it's unpatriotic to question the motives, goals and actions of the country's leaders. You think that's selfish because you can't get beyond the "cowardice" line of thinking.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 73):
Again, if the press had reported WW2 as they did Vietnam, or they have Iraq, and had spoiled brats like yourself populated the country in 1941 the outcome of that war would be in doubt.

This is as "apples and oranges" an argument as I've seen in a long time. There is no comparison between Iraq/Viet Nam and a conflict against two large and powerful aggressor nations -- both of which (in the case of the U.S.) declared war, using somewhat different methodologies to do it.

Some of the more stark differences?

1. The U.S. didn't have to make up Pearl Harbour (as opposed to the Gulf of Tonkin incident) and Hitler did indeed have WMDs -- some of them had already sunk some American ships.

2. Berlin and Tokyo invaded a few countries and took them over by force. Viet Nam was engaged in a civil war that grew out of their efforts to kick out the French colonialists (who, irony of ironies, the US supported) Iraq, since the 1991 Gulf War, was successfully contained and had no weapons -- as we now know and as the Bush Administration refused to believe.

3. The western world was generally on side with the US in WW2 -- since in fact they'd already been fighting it for more than two years before Pearl Harbour. The Japanese made it easy to keep that alliance together by attacking everyone else as as well as the US.

So spare me the extrapolations about what I (or my fellow boomers) would have done in 1939 if we'd been around. The bottom line is that in 1939 (or 1941 if that works better) the western powers were attacked and their survival as nations was seriously threatened. That construct didn't exist for the US in either Viet Nam or in Iraq -- and that makes all the difference in the world, both for how the media covers the event, and how much support it gets from the people.

Y'know, I still remember all those mindless slogans from the 60s -- "my country right or wrong," "My country, love it or leave it" -- you remember them? That's the kind of patriotism that is a blot on the planet, and represents a far greater threat to freedom and democracy than any terrorist or rogue nation ever could.

Go ahead, RJ -- have the last word.
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:18 pm



Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 74):
What about liberals in the military? Do they not count?

They are serving their country. How they managed the two is theirs to deal with.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 75):
This is as "apples and oranges" an argument as I've seen in a long time.

As I said:

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 73):
Funny how when I use analogies to WW2 that is somehow not allowed.

Yet you can somehow string together a bunch of half truths and lies such as:

Quoting Arrow (Reply 75):
Hitler did indeed have WMDs -- some of them had already sunk some American ships.

Really, what WMD's did Hitler have that Saddam did not?

Quoting Arrow (Reply 75):
since the 1991 Gulf War, was successfully contained and had no weapons

The same was said about Germany after WW1 and the treaty of Versailles.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 75):
The Japanese made it easy to keep that alliance together by attacking everyone else as as well as the US.

The attack on Pearl Harbor actually killed fewer people and had less of an effect on the U.S. economy than 9/11 did. So using the comparison as well as the liberal line spouted about our country today we should have just said "Well I guess we had that coming".

Quoting Arrow (Reply 75):
So spare me the extrapolations about what I (or my fellow boomers) would have done in 1939 if we'd been around

You would have lost the war for us as you helped to do in Vietnam and tried to do in Iraq. 50 thousand casualties are partly on your head for aiding and abetting the enemy as you do today.
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baroque
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:36 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 76):
So using the comparison as well as the liberal line spouted about our country today we should have just said "Well I guess we had that coming".

There you go, getting WW II analogies wrong again.  Big grin The US did indeed have Pearl Harbour coming - or something like - due to its oil embargo. It was 100% clear that Japan either had to back down, or attack. It was obvious that it was not backing down. Ergo... Which do not mean that reacting to Pearl was wrong either just before you traduce me (again). It simply means take ALL the facts into account, which is usually what you do not do.

I will not rehearse the problems you would have had had you invaded N Vietnam - always assuming you did not manage to start a nuclear war. Giap would simply have disappeared his regulars to swim amongst the population. You would have had to kill more and more for less and less. All the while backed as Arrow writes, by a corrupt government in Saigon. (Any similarities to Afghanistan in 2008, I wonder!!)

I suppose one potential positive would have been that around 1973 ish you would have learned that invasions of countries that do not want you can be unsuccessful. That might have saved you learning it in 2003 - but then again, I doubt it.

BTW during the effete thirties there were plenty of Colonel Blimps around in the UK happy to declare that "the youth of today would not be capable of defending Britain, Harrruuumppphhh". And a few short years later those same youth were the Battle of Britain pilots. So have a care with judging the protesters during Vietnam, history shows they were more correct than their opposition.

Also fewer personal attacks on the views and history of valued a.net members would make this miserable, naive little old soul a little less unhappy although no less naive - pretty please Rj.
 
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:45 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 76):
what WMD's did Hitler have

are you for serious or are you altogether zonked in the head? ever heard of Zyklon B? let me guess, that doesn't count as a WMD?
 
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:25 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 77):
The US did indeed have Pearl Harbour coming - or something like - due to its oil embargo.

Of course the Japanese demands that led to the embargo had nothing to do with its implementation.
http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastindies/DEI_oil.html

Quoting Baroque (Reply 77):
Which do not mean that reacting to Pearl was wrong either just before you traduce me (again). It simply means take ALL the facts into account, which is usually what you do not do.

As do you. We were well within our rights to follow the diplomatic course we undertook with our allies. The Japanese decided to become an aggressor nation. It is not something that we "deserved". But I guess when you spout the anti-American line you have to stick with it no matter how big a berg you hit.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 77):
All the while backed as Arrow writes, by a corrupt government in Saigon

Of course the government in the north was as pure as the driven snow. I'm sure that no one was relocated to any kind of camp that would make Gitmo look like a five star resort when Saigon fell.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 77):
Also fewer personal attacks on the views and history of valued a.net members would make this miserable, naive little old soul a little less unhappy although no less naive - pretty please Rj.

I make no promises in that regard. If someone is going to act stupid, post incorrect information, or try and twist a quote as below, they get what they deserve. I follow the rules and any post or response is within them. Any user is free to hit the SD button although that to me, unless it contains threats of violence, is the cowards way out. If you are going to dish it out be man enough to take it.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 78):
what WMD's did Hitler have

are you for serious or are you altogether zonked in the head?

Nice try, how about using the whole quote? Nazi Germany actually had access and production capability of a whole range of chemical agents. They were smart enough to realize that it would not help their battle plan and more than likely would slow it down.
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:58 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 77):
The US did indeed have Pearl Harbour coming - or something like - due to its oil embargo.

BTW, using this analogy should the Iranians block the straight of Hormuz, I guess we are then free to turn their country into a sheet of green glass right?
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RJdxer
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:22 am

Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
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STT757
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:04 am

Credit is due to the President for the surge, it's worked. However most of the credit goes to Secretary Gates, General Petraeus, General Odierno and especially the US Army Soldiers and the Marines who carried out their plan despite of the stress of multiple deployments, extended deployments and the unpopularity of the war at Home.

Now get the extra troops to Afghanistan, and with Petraeus taking over Central Command I hope they have a surge plan for Afghanistan to bring that situation under control.
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STT757
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:13 pm

Get more troops to Afghanistan!

Nine US Soldiers killed in insurgent attack.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080713/ap_on_re_as/afghanistan
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Falcon84
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:38 pm



Quoting STT757 (Reply 83):
Get more troops to Afghanistan!

That's apparently what's going to happen.

Unfortunately, the President took his eyes off the real war on Terror, 5 years ago, to go after his quest for glory in Iraq. And the legit war in Afghanistan has suffered for it.
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:31 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 84):
And the legit war in Afghanistan has suffered for it.

As long as the Taliban can use Pakistan as a rest and refit point that war will continue unabated no matter how many troops we put into the country. We learned that lesson in Vietnam. The Taliban gets to choose the time and place for a fight and there are very few counters to that.
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Falcon84
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:40 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 85):
As long as the Taliban can use Pakistan as a rest and refit point that war will continue unabated no matter how many troops we put into the country.

Agreed, 100%. But that doesn't change the fact that your heroes in the White House took their eye off the real fight to play cowboy in Iraq. Had the troops levels in Afghanistan not been affect by this folly in Iraq, there's a chance that war wouldn't be faltering as it is right now.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 85):
We learned that lesson in Vietnam.

I don't think Bush learned a damn thing from it, which was "don't start a fight you shouldn't be in to begin."
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Aaron747
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:49 am

Bush also didn't learn a thing from the man quoted in my sig as well.
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RJdxer
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:04 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 86):
But that doesn't change the fact that your heroes in the White House took their eye off the real fight to play cowboy in Iraq. Had the troops levels in Afghanistan not been affect by this folly in Iraq, there's a chance that war wouldn't be faltering as it is right now.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. As long as the Taliban can use Pakistan as a safe point from which to rest and refit no amount of troops on the ground is going to win the war. Fighting in Iraq, or in Antartica for that matter does not change that.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 86):
don't think Bush learned a damn thing from it, which was "don't start a fight you shouldn't be in to begin."

The difference being that we are winning in Iraq and we gave up in Vietnam.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 87):
Bush also didn't learn a thing from the man quoted in my sig as well.

Iraq was not a war of aggression. A war of aggression would imply gaining territory to lord over which is not why we are there.
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:46 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 88):
A war of aggression would imply gaining territory to lord over which is not why we are there.

Whichever it is - removing a dictator who poses some kind of security threat or inducing a terror-friendly power vaccuum to "fight them over there", it's still an aggressive action. There needn't be an extended discourse in semantics here - the fact of the matter is we went without being attacked by anyone. That, by its very nature, is aggression.
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Falcon84
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:48 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 88):
Perhaps I wasn't clear. As long as the Taliban can use Pakistan as a safe point from which to rest and refit no amount of troops on the ground is going to win the war. Fighting in Iraq, or in Antartica for that matter does not change that.

But 5 years ago, the Taliban weren't using Pakistan, because they were mostly on the run in Afghanistan. We took away the troops from there, that could have helped take out the Taliban and al Qaeda, and sent them to Iraq-oh, by the way, clearing the way for al Qaeda to open a NEW base of operations in Iraq, to boot.

We took our eye off what was important, and Bush made up a Boogey man that he could slay. Afghanistan might look a lot different today, had we not diverted our forces and our resources.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 88):
The difference being that we are winning in Iraq and we gave up in Vietnam.

We aren't winning in Iraq. The situation is tenuous, and gains are certainly not permanent there. And, if we launch some damned fool attack on Iran, we'll lose all the gains we've had there.

And, in the end, when we leave, Iraq will turn against us, and they will remember that we invaded their nation without just cause. They won't care we got rid of Saddam. All they'll remember is we ripped their nation apart from one end to another, pitted Iraqi against Iraqi,a nd let foreign mercenaries in to kill even more Iraqi's.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 88):
Iraq was not a war of aggression.

Sure it was. We invaded without provocation. We invaded without being attacked. We were the AGRESSORS in that conflict. We fired the first shot. Taht made it a war of agression.

And, maybe you didn't notice, but war, by its very nature, is an aggressive act. So, as usual, you're dead wrong. You'll go to any lengths to apologize for this President. Shameful.
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baroque
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:00 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 90):
We aren't winning in Iraq. The situation is tenuous, and gains are certainly not permanent there. And, if we launch some damned fool attack on Iran, we'll lose all the gains we've had there.

And, in the end, when we leave, Iraq will turn against us, and they will remember that we invaded their nation without just cause. They won't care we got rid of Saddam. All they'll remember is we ripped their nation apart from one end to another, pitted Iraqi against Iraqi,a nd let foreign mercenaries in to kill even more Iraqi's.

So true Falcon, but you may as well save your breath to cool your porridge. The ripping is one part, attempts to acquire oil reserves will also be a significant burr under the saddle. Especially as said oil becomes more valuable.

When the US invaded Iraq, its actual reserves of 49 billion barrels were worth 1.2 trillion dollars and at this week's prices they are worth 6.8 trillion dollars. This probably does not mean that the Iraqis will be intensely grateful, but rather that they have five times as many reasons to defend THEIR property.
 
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:08 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 89):
That, by its very nature, is aggression.

We will have to agree to disagree. The points of why we went there have been gone over so many times I'm tired of repeating them.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 90):
But 5 years ago, the Taliban weren't using Pakistan, because they were mostly on the run in Afghanistan.

Will you please please do a little research before making comments like this? I'm tired of having to correct even the simplest errors. For starters google Tora Bora.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 90):
We aren't winning in Iraq. The situation is tenuous, and gains are certainly not permanent there.

 boggled  Just ignore the reports from virtually every official corner, and the lack of reports from the NY Times and other liberal rags. Don't hear much about Iraq now days in the news do you? Wonder why?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 90):
And, if we launch some damned fool attack on Iran, we'll lose all the gains we've had there.

Funny how the President has repeatedly said that no such attack is imminent, that he would prefer to work diplomatically but, and a smart move, military action is never off the table. Only liberals like you are running around saying an attack is going to happen before he leaves office.
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Aaron747
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:24 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 92):
We will have to agree to disagree. The points of why we went there have been gone over so many times I'm tired of repeating them.

Nothing you can say changes the fact that we took aggressive action without being attacked by anyone. That cannot and will not ever be in dispute, thus it's an aggressive war.
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:31 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 93):
Nothing you can say changes the fact that we took aggressive action without being attacked by anyone. That cannot and will not ever be in dispute, thus it's an aggressive war.

Then our entry into WW1 was an aggressive action since the United States had not been attacked by Germany. Our entry into the European theater of war in WW2 was an aggressive action since Nazi German had not attacked us. Our entry into the Korean peninsula was an aggressive action since North Korea had not attacked us. Our entry into Grenada was an aggressive action since Grenada had not attacked us. Our entry into Panama was an aggressive action since Panama had not attacked us. Yet in all those cases we had good reason to do what we did. Some were defensive in nature, others to help out our citizens in trouble, and yet others to prevent our being attacked at home. We can argue it all day long but the fact remains that the use of war is not limited to aggression.
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baroque
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:36 pm

So back to 2003 in Iraq is winning! I thought the last time it was declared Mission Accomplished it was a little premature.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7498200.stm
Iraqi cities hit by bomb attacks
At least seven people have been killed and some 19 injured in a suicide car bombing in Iraq's northern city of Mosul, Iraqi officials say.
...
Earlier, bombs exploded in the western city of Falluja, killing four policemen and two civilians, police say.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7496294.stm
Iraq will not accept any security deal with the US which does not include a date for the pullout of foreign troops, a senior Iraqi official has said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7492987.stm
A female suicide bomber has killed nine people and wounded 12 others in an attack on an Iraqi market, police said.

The attack took place in the al-Mafraq area west of Baquba in Diyala province, about 50 km (30 miles) north-east of the Iraqi capital, Baghdad.


The Iraqis are indeed lucky the invasion is not proving a failure.
 
RJdxer
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:16 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 95):
The Iraqis are indeed lucky the invasion is not proving a failure.

Compared to 2007, 2006, 2005, and 2004 are attacks up or down?
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Arrow
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:32 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 94):
Then our entry into WW1 was an aggressive action since the United States had not been attacked by Germany.

A couple of ships went to the bottom with Americans on them, as I recall; and wasn't there a sweetheart deal between the Kaiser and Mexico? How many ships did Saddam sink? Oh, and of course the war had already been underway for a few years.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 94):
Our entry into the European theater of war in WW2 was an aggressive action since Nazi German had not attacked us.

Again, a couple of ships (US warships, too, I recall) went down. And there is that inconvenient truth that Germany declared war on the US. Did Saddam do any of that?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 94):
Our entry into the Korean peninsula was an aggressive action since North Korea had not attacked us.

Weren't there a few North Korean troops milling around in the south for a while? Did Saddam have any troops in other countries?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 94):
Our entry into Grenada was an aggressive action since Grenada had not attacked us. Our entry into Panama was an aggressive action since Panama had not attacked us.

Yup. Those were aggressive.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 94):
We can argue it all day long but the fact remains that the use of war is not limited to aggression.

The use of war in Afghanistan, after 9/11, had some defensive justification and if that had remained the focus we'd all be in much better shape today. The use of war in Iraq is just plain naked aggression, with no justification whatsoever.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 79):
I make no promises in that regard. If someone is going to act stupid, post incorrect information, or try and twist a quote as below, they get what they deserve. I follow the rules and any post or response is within them. Any user is free to hit the SD button although that to me, unless it contains threats of violence, is the cowards way out. If you are going to dish it out be man enough to take it.

I'll never hit the SD button because I'm fundamentally opposed to censorship, and I have a very thick skin. I also believe that the best way to deal with BS is to leave it out there where people can pull it apart.


BTW -- interesting piece ran on the weekend on the US real Viet Nam legacy - agent orange -- with some shameful Canadian complicity. Now why do I think, RJ, that you'll come up with a rousing defense of that one, too. Those damn liberals ...

'Last ghost' of the Vietnam War
More than three decades after the fall of Saigon, the spectre of Agent Orange still haunts the estimated three million children and grandchildren of its initial victims. As Vietnam presses a reluctant U.S. government to help mop up the damage, the taint of the chemical concoction still lingers in a sleepy Ontario farming town that brewed millions of litres of the stuff for the American war effort.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...0080711.worange1107/BNStory/Front/
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davestanKSAN
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:52 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 76):
They are serving their country. How they managed the two is theirs to deal with.

So you admit your little, usual rant against liberals was out of line? You admit there are liberals that are serving, and have served our country? Let me point out what you said again:

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 73):
Enjoy the benefits at someone elses expense, follows right along the liberal line.

Hmmmm, me thinks you just insulted many American Servicemen and Women. But, I guess as long as you get your liberal bashing in, it's okay. Well done.

Dave
Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
 
RJdxer
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RE: Time To Start Talking About Pullout In Iraq

Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:11 pm



Quoting Arrow (Reply 97):
couple of ships went to the bottom with Americans on them

Not an attack on America. If killing Americans were an excuse for war we would have been at war with Mexico within at least the last decade.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 97):
and wasn't there a sweetheart deal between the Kaiser and Mexico?

Still not an attack. It was an overture and nothing more.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 97):
How many ships did Saddam sink?

Perhaps you should read up on the USS Stark.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 97):
Again, a couple of ships (US warships, too, I recall) went down.

If you would care to name them. I have searched and not found a single warship sunk by hostile action prior to 12/07/41.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 97):
And there is that inconvenient truth that Germany declared war on the US.

With what means to deliver it? In this day of jet age travel a country doesn't need to mount a major military operation to deal a crippling blow to an enemy. Espesically one with as open a society as we have.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 97):
Did Saddam do any of that?

Yes. He invaded his neighbor and then spent the next 12 years trying to weasel out of agreements he made.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 97):
Did Saddam have any troops in other countries?

We did not have any treaty obligations to South Korea other than our membership in the UN.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 97):
Weren't there a few North Korean troops milling around in the south for a while?

North Korean troops milling about South Korea presented no threat to the U.S..

Quoting Arrow (Reply 97):
had remained the focus we'd all be in much better shape today.

Again, as long as the Taliban can use Pakistan as a rest and refit point with no fear of attack, then no amount of troops on the ground in Afghanistan is going to matter. This is partly what the Soviets found out.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 97):
The use of war in Iraq is just plain naked aggression, with no justification whatsoever.

It would have been naked aggression if, as the soviets did in Afghanistan, we had invaded with the intent of creating a puppet state which would be a defacto territorial acquisition. That is not, nor has it ever been the case in Iraq. We have always planned to leave, leaving a freely elected government in place. Justification was plain even if you don't agree with it.

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 98):
Hmmmm, me thinks you just insulted many American Servicemen and Women.

Hmmm....when I hear an actual service person complain your argument will go from theoretical to reality. If a liberal service person believes in national health care, then they believe in letting someone enjoy the benefits at someone elses expense. One does not mean you cannot believe in the other. As usual you let your liberal zero sum philosophy stand in the way of reality.
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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos