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MadameConcorde
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Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:27 pm

I happened to find this article.

Death of Free Internet is Imminent
Canada Will Become Test Case

...
In the upcoming weeks watch for a report in Time Magazine that will attempt to smooth over the rough edges of a diabolical plot by Bell Canada and Telus, to begin charging per site fees on most Internet sites. The plan is to convert the Internet into a cable-like system, where customers sign up for specific web sites, and then pay to visit sites beyond a cutoff point.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9627

From what is said in the article, it would mean the death of the Internet as we know it.
Simply awful. I hope this is never going to happen.
 
aace24
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:33 pm

Awful, awful idea.

I hope this never comes to pass.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:53 pm

I'll beleive it when I see the article. Woun't happen in the USA due to the access rules and cable involvement.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:58 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):
Death of Free Internet is Imminent

 
David L
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:07 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):
Simply awful. I hope this is never going to happen.

From the Centre for Research on Globalization... all very theoretical. Take a look at their most popular stories, e.g. nuclear war against Iran imminent, final plans "being made now".

Altogether now... "Cuckoo".
 
ACDC8
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:12 pm

I'm putting my money on that this is just a myth (for now at least). Telus and Bell are starting to charge 15 cents per incoming text message next month ....

http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2008/07/08/text-messages.html

.... so the internet thing is probably just some story/rumour someone is starting in response to Telus and Bell with the texting, I haven't seen any other news on it yet.

If someone were to start charging these kind of fees though, I'd put my money on Telus and Bell (especially Bell) to be the first ones starting.

The article in the OP has a quick blurb about the text message garbage, but they claim that Telus and Rogers are the ones charging, which, is of course incorrect. Rogers is staying the way it is, at least for now.

[Edited 2008-07-22 12:17:38]
 
WrenchBender
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:18 pm



Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 5):
.... so the internet thing is probably just some story/rumour someone is starting in response to Telus and Bell with the texting, I haven't seen any other news on it yet.

As these 2 companies are pretty well tha largest cell phone providers in Canada as well, is someone confusing cell phone access to the internet........

WrenchBender
 
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moo
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:19 pm



Quoting CasInterest (Reply 2):
I'll beleive it when I see the article. Woun't happen in the USA due to the access rules and cable involvement.

What access rules? ISPs are under no obligation to provide you with a neutral service.
 
David L
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:20 pm



Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 5):
I'm putting my money on that this is just a myth (for now at least)

 checkmark  The whole website seems to be dedicated to showing how "evil" the US government and the big corporations are and what terrible, terrible things they have in store for us. Sorry, but...  sarcastic 
 
Blackbird
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:45 pm

This has to be protested (non violently of course).

I would recommend contacting the EFF, and Americans (since we will eventually be affected by this) need to contact the ALCU.


Andrea Kent
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:52 pm

There still exists a totally non-commercial (but rather slow) alternative. Over the years radio hams have been developing digital means of transfering messages, e.g. PSK31, packet radio etc., which also includes mailboxers etc.. It will be again like internet in the 1980s, but at least it is a non-controlled way of transmitting information. The biggest problem is that discussion about politics, religion etc. are frowned upon (because theyare banned in some countries and even during cold war radio hams from both sides of the Iron curtain kept in contact. Sensitive topic were avoided to prevent trouble to the hams living in totalitarian countries). Also, any commercial use of the amateur radio bands is strictly banned and a sure way to loose your licence.

Jan
 
David L
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:01 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 9):
since we will eventually be affected by this

Affected by what? Something it's claimed is going to happen, by a website also claiming the US is about to start a nuclear war with Iran and that the big corporations are "out to get us". Knock yourself out protesting but don't be surprised when the majority of us have a good laugh and continue to use our existing internet service.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:02 pm

These large thieves corporations will use any way they can to get money out of our pockets. They will invent anything and find any way they can, whatever reason to steal money from us and at the same time hamper our freedom.

I believe the governments will follow in their footsteps if this is done as there is heaps of money to be made out of this if they apply it.

I wonder if there is any way to "hijack" the lines so we do not have to abide to their upcoming horror stories of having to pay for "packages" with extra cost for whatever (everything else) that will not be in their hellish packages.

Protests and petitions, yes certainly but will it have any effect?
 
David L
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:18 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 12):
These large thieves corporations will use any way they can to get money out of our pockets.

Such as producing goods and/or services we want at prices we can afford? The bastards.  Smile

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 12):
They will invent anything and find any way they can, whatever reason to steal money from us and at the same time hamper our freedom.

I believe the governments will follow in their footsteps if this is done as there is heaps of money to be made out of this if they apply it

And I believe this will happen after the US begins this alleged nuclear war with Iran. Why should this story be any more accurate than any of the other BS they're reporting?

Seriously, a whacko website reports that the whole payment structure of the internet is going to change for the worse and some of you are actually going to waste time and effort "fighting" it? A complete waste of resources, in my opinion.  Smile
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:19 pm

Let's hope this will be just talk and some lines in an article posted on a "whacko" website.
If these changes never happen and we don't have to "fight" it so much the better.

Quoting David L (Reply 13):
Seriously, a whacko website reports that the whole payment structure of the internet is going to change for the worse and some of you are actually going to waste time and effort "fighting" it? A complete waste of resources, in my opinion.

 
ACDC8
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:21 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 12):
These large thieves corporations will use any way they can to get money out of our pockets. They will invent anything and find any way they can, whatever reason to steal money from us and at the same time hamper our freedom.

Mobile phone service in Canada is a joke, we are already paying more than most other countries for a mediocre service.

The way their plans are advertised is another tasteless tactic at trying to deceive customers. For example, a basic mobile package will cost you about $25 a month according to their advertisement. To that, you need to add a "system access fee" of around $7-$8 a month, a "911 access fee" of around 50 cents to $1 a month plus GST and PST. So, now you're already paying $10 more than advertised. Plus these basic packages don't include text messaging, voicemail, caller id, etc. All those cost more and have their own hidden fees.

The system access fee already has a pending lawsuit ...

http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/258049

Of course deceptive advertising practices in Canada are nothing new or limited to the telecommunications industry. The airlines are kings at deceptive advertising. Take Air Canada for example, recently, they advertised YVR-DUS for $365. This is a one way ticket based on a return ticket purchase. To that, you have to add GST, PST, fuel surcharge, nav fees, AIF fees and Lord only knows what. So, from an advertised $365 the final bill came to over $1600!

[Edited 2008-07-22 13:22:23]
 
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moo
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:26 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 12):
These large thieves corporations will use any way they can to get money out of our pockets. They will invent anything and find any way they can, whatever reason to steal money from us and at the same time hamper our freedom.

Paranoid much?

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 12):

I wonder if there is any way to "hijack" the lines so we do not have to abide to their upcoming horror stories of having to pay for "packages" with extra cost for whatever (everything else) that will not be in their hellish packages.

You can always put your own in, or go wireless and put your own infrastructure in. But I'm guessing it wont take you very long at all to realise the true economics behind running a third or fourth tier ISP, let alone a second or top tier ISP.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:29 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 12):
These large thieves corporations will use any way they can to get money out of our pockets. They will invent anything and find any way they can, whatever reason to steal money from us and at the same time hamper our freedom.

Uh oh, and do you not try to do the same thing to these companies? Don't you always try to pay the least as possible??? Don't you always try to maximize your bang for your buck???

How greedy of you!! Sickening!

 sarcastic 
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:39 pm

Not the case here.

My ISP is far from cheap and secondly they are a monopoly. There is no other choice. Monaco Telecom is the only one running the show for land lines, mobiles and Internet altogether.

Quoting Moo (Reply 16):



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 17):
Uh oh, and do you not try to do the same thing to these companies? Don't you always try to pay the least as possible??? Don't you always try to maximize your bang for your buck???


[Edited 2008-07-22 13:44:20]
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:40 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 17):
Uh oh, and do you not try to do the same thing to these companies? Don't you always try to pay the least as possible??? Don't you always try to maximize your bang for your buck???

How greedy of you!! Sickening!

Well, I can imagine that with these package options, internet will loose attractivity quickly. Or can you imagine an internet, which only consists of sites about the latest escapades of Brittney Spears?

I wonder what the site owners (especially the commercial ones) will say about it. They will loose a lot of customers.

Jan
 
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casinterest
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:45 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 7):
What access rules? ISPs are under no obligation to provide you with a neutral service.

Not my point.

In the US the Physical owners of cable/Telephone lines, can't block other ISP's from offering internet services. They can charge them rental of the lines,but as a flat fee. So if say Bellsouth or Time Warner suddenly wanted to charge for access to sites in the internet. AOL ,Netzero or Earhtlink would instantly beat the snot out of them.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:50 pm



Quoting CasInterest (Reply 21):
In the US the Physical owners of cable/Telephone lines, can't block other ISP's from offering internet services. They can charge them rental of the lines,but as a flat fee. So if say Bellsouth or Time Warner suddenly wanted to charge for access to sites in the internet. AOL ,Netzero or Earhtlink would instantly beat the snot out of them.

The same in Germany. The Deutsche Telekom (which is the privatised telecommunications branch of the former government owned Deutsch Post and as such inherited the whole telephone network), tried to abuse it's monopoly, but quickly got beaten in court by smaller ISP's.

Jan
 
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moo
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:52 pm



Quoting CasInterest (Reply 21):

In the US the Physical owners of cable/Telephone lines, can't block other ISP's from offering internet services. They can charge them rental of the lines,but as a flat fee. So if say Bellsouth or Time Warner suddenly wanted to charge for access to sites in the internet. AOL ,Netzero or Earhtlink would instantly beat the snot out of them.

That only applies to phone lines, it does not apply to cable - and it also only applies where a municiple monopoly agreement is in place with the local authorities.

Deep packet inspection, bandwidth shaping and connection resetting techniques are already in use within the US ISP industry.
 
Blackbird
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:04 pm

If Net Neutrality is lost, companies could control precisely what is allowed on the web avoiding censorship laws.

Since the government is often in cahoots with big buisness, the government could control what goes on the web and what doesn't. The internet would become the news with everything "sanitized" to the point that you can't get any reliable information

Andrea Kent
 
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moo
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:09 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 24):
If Net Neutrality is lost, companies could control precisely what is allowed on the web avoiding censorship laws.

Again, get off your arse and build an infrastructure than you control - its their infrastructure, its their right to control it. Build something they can't control.

Oh, and further to my previous post, even ADSL providers are not required to give competitors access to their infrastructure - the requirement was overturned in 2005 and the overturning was upheld in 2007.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/technology/28broadband.html

http://www.reuters.com/article/gover...tFilingsNews/idUSN1622489820071016
 
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LTU932
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:17 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 24):
If Net Neutrality is lost, companies could control precisely what is allowed on the web avoiding censorship laws.

The Web is already being censored in several countries, like China and in Arab countries like the UAE, Saudi-Arabia, Lebanon, and others. Try to access a porn site from Riyadh, Baghdad, or Jeddah, you won't be able to even get to the homepage because it is nationally blocked for religious reasons; try to access a page on the Falun Gong in Beijing and you'll notice it is blocked.

The internet has lost its freedom years ago, when it was started to be nationally censored by certain countries. Unlike what you may be thinking, this isn't something new, or a conspiracy. It's reality, plain and simple.
 
David L
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:27 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 26):
The internet has lost its freedom years ago, when it was started to be nationally censored by certain countries. Unlike what you may be thinking, this isn't something new, or a conspiracy. It's reality, plain and simple.

Maybe so but we're a long, long way from any serious internet censorship in the west, otherwise there wouldn't be so many porn sites, conspiracy sites, anti-government sites, anti-corporation sites or spam e-mails. The sky is clearly not falling.  Smile
 
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LTU932
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:34 pm



Quoting David L (Reply 26):
Maybe so but we're a long, long way from any serious internet censorship in the west

Thankfully.  Wink

Anyway, the point is that the internet isn't overall free anymore. Yes, we in the West still have the advantage that posting and viewing something over the internet freely (we just pay for the access), while others aren't that fortunate. Even so, I don't think we'll return to a time, where accessing a certain site requires you to pay extra, like the premium services on Compuserve over a decade ago, before the Web became the method for browsing the internet.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:03 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19):
Well, I can imagine that with these package options, internet will loose attractivity quickly. Or can you imagine an internet, which only consists of sites about the latest escapades of Brittney Spears?

I wonder what the site owners (especially the commercial ones) will say about it. They will loose a lot of customers.

Yeah, that's why it probably would never work.

From the article above:
I suspect that the ISP's will provide a "package" program as companies like Cogeco currently do. Customers will pay for a series of websites as they do now for their television stations.

But. . .

Quote:
Time Warner Cable starts customer trial with metered Internet access in Texas

NEW YORK (AP) -- You're used to paying extra if you use up your cell phone minutes, but will you be willing to pay extra if your home computer goes over its Internet allowance?

Time Warner Cable Inc. customers -- and, later, others -- may have to, if the company's test of metered Internet access is successful.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080602/tec_time_warner_cable_internet.html


Looks like he suspected wrongly.

And if you want to further gauge the quality of the author, consider he claims to prefer censorship over pay internet. The ignorance is beyond belief.

Quoting Moo (Reply 25):

You seem to know quite a bit, so I have a couple of questions:

Do ISPs pay for the use of the cables? I would imagine so.

Are these fees/contracts regulated in any way?
 
Blackbird
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:18 pm



Quote:
The Web is already being censored in several countries, like China and in Arab countries like the UAE, Saudi-Arabia, Lebanon, and others.

You don't see a problem with this?

What if the US adopts such censorship... then we won't be able to get any reliable information and our government hasn't exactly been the most open with it's people.


Andrea Kent
 
Phoenix9
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:36 pm

This seems a whole lot of BS...imagine schools/universities/students trying to do research...or collaborations. What's going to happen to all the databases accessible online...no more information on your fingertips! Not only it will drive many companies out of business, any ISPs that try to do this will loose a whole lot of subscribers as well. If they start doing this then what are the options for consumers? Buy a "porn" package, or a "news" package, or "forums" package just like cable? Consumers will never stand for it....we already pay them enough and go through bandwidth caps etc. and with the economy in current situation....no one will want to spend more !!

That being said...I'm sure that if this is implimented...someone will come out with a counter technology. Illegal software, pirated DVDs, music CDs, mp3s....ISPs started deep packet inspection...torrent sites went to encryption. These companies keep working on trying to block copying/access....new technology comes out --> someone comes up with a crack...has been going on for a long time...and will continue (iphone is the latest example).

Where ever there is a genius thinking sh!t up...there is a higher genius who has already thought of a countermeasure
 
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LTU932
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:57 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 29):
You don't see a problem with this?

It is something stupid to do, but in the end, it isn't my problem because I'm NOT affected by this, as I live in a country where there is no internet censorship.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 29):
What if the US adopts such censorship... then we won't be able to get any reliable information and our government hasn't exactly been the most open with it's people.

It ain't gonna happen because this would be a blatant violation of the First Amendment, for which civil rights groups and the SCOTUS will want the heads of the people responsible for making such a law in the first place.

So knock it off with your conspiracy theories, they're all unsubstantiated and ridiculous.
 
18161
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:54 pm

How can they charge the customers for visiting websites, if eg. if those websites are not charging bell to acess their webpage. Only limiting the bandwidth can be justified as bell's resources need to be paid for. I don't understand visiting some websites could add burden to bell that need to be recovered. Can they arbitrarily charge because people would have to pay anyways??
 
David L
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:20 am



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 29):
Quote:
The Web is already being censored in several countries, like China and in Arab countries like the UAE, Saudi-Arabia, Lebanon, and others.

You don't see a problem with this?

a) There's nothing I can do about it
b) As LTU932 says, it's not a problem for me
c) These are completely different countries with a history of tight control

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 31):
Quoting Blackbird (Reply 29):
What if the US adopts such censorship... then we won't be able to get any reliable information and our government hasn't exactly been the most open with it's people.

It ain't gonna happen because this would be a blatant violation of the First Amendment, for which civil rights groups and the SCOTUS will want the heads of the people responsible for making such a law in the first place.

 checkmark  There is no evidence that the governments any major western countries are even considering controlling web content to "control the masses".

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 31):
So knock it off with your conspiracy theories, they're all unsubstantiated and ridiculous.

 checkmark  I can't believe how many people fall for such BS from sources with such an obvious agenda. 9/11 conspiracies, moon landing conspiracies, Bermuda Triangle theories, mind control conspiracies involving western governments... they're all obviously BS on the same level.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:39 am

What you may see is additional fees from your ISP to download movies, TV programs and music, perhaps over a certain monthly limit like one pays for additional services on a mobile/cell phone. They eat a lot of bandwidth and they will want a cut of the money from such access. We may also see more subscription websites like here at airliners.net.
Two factors for possible changes as to costs for being on the internet could include: 1) that there was so much overbuilding of fiber optic lines all over the world years ago well beyond needs then, so space was cheap, but now some of that needs replacement or expansion and that costs a lot of money. 2) the loss of other sources of income or competition (traditional phone co's losing to mobile companies, cable TV companies and so on), and 3) declining or leveling out of advertising income.
 
Pope
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:56 am

Wow. 35 posts and nobody has blamed this on George Bush.
 
Phoenix9
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:02 am



Quoting Pope (Reply 35):
Wow. 35 posts and nobody has blamed this on George Bush.

Or on Iran trying control internet so they can nuke rest of the world
 
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Jetsgo
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:09 am



Quoting Pope (Reply 35):

That's because Blackbird is a wimp and doesn't have the cajones to stop beating the bush and just say it's all Bush's fault. What a nut.
 
Blackbird
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:29 am

LTU932,

Quote:
It is something stupid to do, but in the end, it isn't my problem because I'm NOT affected by this, as I live in a country where there is no internet censorship.

You know, there was this saying that went to the effect of "First they came for the communists, but I didn't care because I wasn't a communist, then they came for the Jews, but I didn't care because I wasn't Jewish....... and then they came for me, but nobody was left".

Saying "Because it doesn't affect me doesn't mean I have any cause to have concern" is not exactly the best attitude to have

Quote:
It ain't gonna happen because this would be a blatant violation of the First Amendment, for which civil rights groups and the SCOTUS will want the heads of the people responsible for making such a law in the first place.

Oh really? I thought there was a fourth amendment which said people were supposed to be free in their persons, and possessions from unreasonable search and seizures except with probable cause and a warrant, right? Yet SCOTUS has allowed surveillance cameras under the "plain view" doctrine (which was meant to allow a person who spotted criminal activity with their naked eye to report it without needing a warrant) with very high magnification (even cameras mounted on choppers) to be used to peer inside people's apartments, cars, and houses at ranges well beyond that of the human eye.

SCOTUS's interpretations of the Constitution can be quite flexible depending on the Administration in power, and how many justices are right-wingers.


Andrea Kent
 
scrubbsywg
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:10 am



Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 5):
I'm putting my money on that this is just a myth (for now at least). Telus and Bell are starting to charge 15 cents per incoming text message next month ....

http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2008/07/08/text-messages.html

.... so the internet thing is probably just some story/rumour someone is starting in response to Telus and Bell with the texting, I haven't seen any other news on it yet.

If someone were to start charging these kind of fees though, I'd put my money on Telus and Bell (especially Bell) to be the first ones starting.

The article in the OP has a quick blurb about the text message garbage, but they claim that Telus and Rogers are the ones charging, which, is of course incorrect. Rogers is staying the way it is, at least for now.

Ironically enough, I, a telus cellular customer, received a text message today informing me that as of August 15, it will cost $0.15 to receive a text message.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:18 am



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 38):
You know, there was this saying that went to the effect of "First they came for the communists, but I didn't care because I wasn't a communist, then they came for the Jews, but I didn't care because I wasn't Jewish....... and then they came for me, but nobody was left".

Saying "Because it doesn't affect me doesn't mean I have any cause to have concern" is not exactly the best attitude to have

Don't make this a discussion on moral, and the past. Face it, this doesn't affect me because it's not happening in my country. Besides, we're talking about the internet, not possible genocide or anything. This has nothing to do with the Holocaust or the Cold War.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 38):
Oh really? I thought there was a fourth amendment which said people were supposed to be free in their persons, and possessions from unreasonable search and seizures except with probable cause and a warrant, right? Yet SCOTUS has allowed surveillance cameras under the "plain view" doctrine (which was meant to allow a person who spotted criminal activity with their naked eye to report it without needing a warrant) with very high magnification (even cameras mounted on choppers) to be used to peer inside people's apartments, cars, and houses at ranges well beyond that of the human eye.

SCOTUS's interpretations of the Constitution can be quite flexible depending on the Administration in power, and how many justices are right-wingers.

And yet you are avoiding the hidden question: Did SCOTUS restrict the First Amendment? They didn't, did they? Did the US Government try to brutally crush the voices of dissent before and during the Iraq war, in typical dictatorial style? No, they didn't. Again, you're going off-topic, because this has nothing to do with the Fourth, it has to do with the first, and despite whatever interpretation SCOTUS has regarding the Fourth, which I presume isn't nearly as dramatic as you like to point out in your conspiracy theories, the First has always been unrestricted. Sure, sometimes the US seems like a country of contradictions given its history in certain aspects, but we're talking about the here and now, and to my knowledge, I've never heard of any complaint at this time, in which someone claimed that his rights under the First Amendment were violated.

Stop with the conspiracies, Blackbird, because there are none. Just because a government screwed up, doesn't mean that this is part of some sort of Republican conspiracy or anything.
 
Blackbird
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:26 am



Quote:
Don't make this a discussion on moral, and the past. Face it, this doesn't affect me because it's not happening in my country. Besides, we're talking about the internet, not possible genocide or anything. This has nothing to do with the Holocaust or the Cold War.

Why can't I? People made a lot of mistakes in the past and the least we can do is learn from them. It may not be a holocaust, but it could open the door for a great era of censorship.

Quote:
And yet you are avoiding the hidden question: Did SCOTUS restrict the First Amendment? They didn't, did they?

They didn't brutally crush opposition, however people were put on no fly lists who opposed the Iraq war (protestors and activists) and they couldn't fly, and even if they could they were harassed quite a bit.

It's not the point though whether they violated the first amendment or the second, the third, or the fourth. They violated one, which means they can violate any other. And the fourth amendment was a very serious amendment.


Andrea Kent
 
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LTU932
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:48 am



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 41):
Why can't I?

Because you're comparing genocide with censorship.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 41):
They didn't brutally crush opposition, however people were put on no fly lists who opposed the Iraq war (protestors and activists) and they couldn't fly, and even if they could they were harassed quite a bit.

Can you prove that by quoting from an absolutely neutral source?
 
Blackbird
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:44 am

LTU932,

I'm not trying to compare genocide with censorship. I'm comparing the attitude that you have that just because it's not happening to you means you think it CAN'T happen to you and should be ignored.

As for the source thing, I probably could find a neutral source from whom to quote. However, you should be able to find this on google, and I'm rather lazy right now and I'm not in the mood to look for it.


Andrea Kent
 
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LTU932
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:57 am



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 43):
I'm not trying to compare genocide with censorship. I'm comparing the attitude that you have that just because it's not happening to you means you think it CAN'T happen to you and should be ignored.

Yes, you are. Anyway, I'm not dismissing that this could happen anywhere else, it's just that the possibility of that is so remote, I'm not going to bother.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 43):
As for the source thing, I probably could find a neutral source from whom to quote. However, you should be able to find this on google, and I'm rather lazy right now and I'm not in the mood to look for it.

Why should I google for that information? You brought these allegations up, so it's you who has the burden of proof.
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:29 am



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 12):
These large thieves corporations will use any way they can to get money out of our pockets. They will invent anything and find any way they can, whatever reason to steal money from us and at the same time hamper our freedom.

(Mods: I gotta say it... because it's true)

I really dislike your views and don't respect you, MadameConcorde. Either you are a shameless liar, are a complete hypocrite (in my opinion, the least likely explanation), or have a mental condition. At the same time you say the quote above, you are the first one to point out how you allegedly jump on an first flight somewhere or for some airline -- for who knows how many dollars. I'm pretty sure those airlines are robbing you blind. Are they thieves too? Those greedy corporations... but, leave out the airlines. What is your problem? Seriously?
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8363
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:59 am



Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 39):
Ironically enough, I, a telus cellular customer, received a text message today informing me that as of August 15, it will cost $0.15 to receive a text message.

When I read the first write up about this a few weeks ago in The Province, one of the questions to Bell was about spam texts, the representative assured that if you receive a text message you feel you shouldn't have to pay for, just give their customer service a call and they'll deal with it and take it offer your bill. I don't know why, but with the run around your given by customer *cough* service *cough* these days, especially when it comes to questions about your bill, some how I find that very hard to believe.
 
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moo
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:32 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 28):

Do ISPs pay for the use of the cables? I would imagine so.

Are these fees/contracts regulated in any way?

Depends what cables you are talking about and who owns them, and also the size of the ISP.

Typically the ILEC (Incumbent Local Exchange Carrier) owns the 'last mile', which is the cable from the exchange to your building. An ILEC can be a well known company such as AT&T, and typically is.

They are under no obligation to lease these lines out for internet usage (under the rulings I posted earlier), but are obliged to lease lines and equipment out for telecommunications. The rates and contracts are loosely regulated.

Then you have the regional pipes, which act as a loop around an area and multiple exchanges - your traffic leaves the exchange and travels on the regional pipe to one of the ISPs customer facing gateways.

Typically, the ISP owns the regional if they are large enough (AT&T certainly do, for instance), but they can be leased whole or in part (eg the bandwidth is sliced) from another carrier. These rates and contracts are not regulated.

After the regionals, the traffic enters the ISPs internal network, where its servers et al sit. You can buy 'transit' through an ISPs internal network, but its expensive and typically involves a mutual agreement (you carry some of the ISPs traffic in return, sometimes there is no charge to either party but sometimes there is depending on the agreement and which direction is dominant) - this is called ISP peering.

If you aren't peering with an ISP, you need to peer with a backbone provider, otherwise your traffic ain't going anywhere at all. Backbone providers own their own infrastructure lock stock and barrel.

Tier 1 backbone providers operate specifically under the term 'Settlement Free Interconnection' - they peer with every other Tier 1 provider under a mutual agreement and pay nothing. They make their money by selling transit to tier 2 and 3 providers (tier 2 is an ISP that also has a peering agreement with another ISP so they don't necessarily pay for all their transit, and a tier 3 ISP is one that solely pays others for transit). Tier 1 providers are not regulated.

Of course I have missed out a load of stuff here, so this is not all encompassing or complete by any regard, but you get the picture.

Hope that helps.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:36 am



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 45):
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 12):
These large thieves corporations will use any way they can to get money out of our pockets. They will invent anything and find any way they can, whatever reason to steal money from us and at the same time hamper our freedom.

(Mods: I gotta say it... because it's true)

I really dislike your views and don't respect you, MadameConcorde. Either you are a shameless liar, are a complete hypocrite (in my opinion, the least likely explanation), or have a mental condition. At the same time you say the quote above, you are the first one to point out how you allegedly jump on an first flight somewhere or for some airline -- for who knows how many dollars. I'm pretty sure those airlines are robbing you blind. Are they thieves too? Those greedy corporations... but, leave out the airlines. What is your problem? Seriously?

...and JCS17 sends MadameConcorde in search of her teeth.

 
David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Death Of Free Internet Is Imminent?

Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:15 am



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 38):
Saying "Because it doesn't affect me doesn't mean I have any cause to have concern" is not exactly the best attitude to have

But you're confusing concern with what happens in some countries, and has been happening for a long time, with "proof" that our governments are "out to get us". That's a complete breakdown in logic.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 41):
Why can't I? People made a lot of mistakes in the past and the least we can do is learn from them. It may not be a holocaust, but it could open the door for a great era of censorship.

And yet there's no evidence whatsoever that western governments are even considering political censorship of the internet.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 43):
I'm not trying to compare genocide with censorship. I'm comparing the attitude that you have that just because it's not happening to you means you think it CAN'T happen to you and should be ignored.

By the same token, the fact that it's happening elsewhere is completely irrelevant to the likelihood of it happening here.

This started out as a discussion about an alleged price hike, from a highly dubious source, that would cause ISPs to lose a lot of business and now the allegation is that "the government" is trying to control the content. And it's all based on a story from a conspiracy website. It's just laughable!

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