Hi there,
With the release of the MIEV next year as well as new products from Honda, Toyota etc,
would you consider buying an electric car?
The introductory price for the Mitsubishi M-iev is rumoured to be around $30,000, so it's not within everyones budget.
There was an article in todays paper about a guy who bought a $17,000 Hyundai Getz and spent $30,000 converting it to an electric car.
So If demand is what will enable the electric car to be mass produced, will you take the plunge early on, or wait til the price comes down, or will you just stick to what you have?
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RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
As of now, I won't buy an electric car until it's as versatile to use as my primary vehicle, and the technology for that is a long way off. But if I should ever be able to afford one car for general use and one car specifically for commuting, I'd certainly look into it.
-Mir
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
| Quoting Cragley (Thread starter): With the release of the MIEV next year as well as new products from Honda, Toyota etc, would you consider buying an electric car? |
I'd consider a plug-in hybrid.
Otherwise, unless the car is a 2nd car and has a range of at least 200 miles or so, no way. The Civic CNG (see my recent thread here) is attractive because it breaks that threshold (and there are a few CNG stations out there).
Admittedly I don't take 400mile trips as often as I used to, but having to rent a car every time I wanted to take a long road trip would be a huge pain in the rear.
RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
| Quoting Cragley (Thread starter): would you consider buying an electric car? |
Yes!
There is a simple reason for this, eventually we all will. But I imagine I will be converting over within the next 2-3 years as a replacement for my "to-and-from work car".
Only thing that bugs me at the moment is well, bugs.. the current hybrids are just plain buggy and the batteries are another thing.
Signed, Aaron Nicoli - Trans World Airlines Collector
RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
Nope - at least not now. This is the same reason why I don't go line up for the first iPod or iPhone or tech gadget - I want it to be tested and used so the basic bugs are found and fixed before I buy one.
RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
| Quoting Elite (Reply 4): Nope - at least not now. This is the same reason why I don't go line up for the first iPod or iPhone or tech gadget - I want it to be tested and used so the basic bugs are found and fixed before I buy one. |
I agree completely on this, but I think in the next few years the tech will be coming a lot lot more common. I mean compare now with '05 much more focus on hybrid's this year.
Signed, Aaron Nicoli - Trans World Airlines Collector
RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
At the moment it only makes sense in inner-cities. London is quite ahead here, they already have quite a lot of user-friendly small refilling stations on the roadside as well. And you don´t have to pay the congestion-charge! If I would live there, I would buy an electric car tomorrow. London is one of the few places where it makes sense alraedy now. Only thing is that these "cars" are no true fourseaters yet, but they are a viable alternative to a Smart.
Otherwise, at the moment I wouldn´t buy an electric car. Reasons? 1.I can only afford one nice, or two very basic cars (so being a car-fan I go for 1). 2.Not enough refilling stations. 3.Range too short. An electric car should be able to do 200-300 km minimum, then it starts to make sense when you are NOT living in London or Tokio. 4.Electric cars are, so far, too ugly to put my eye on it. Jap-crap design won´t enter my garage.
Same here. I would never buy overpriced avantgarde stuff, I leave that to the rich, the crazy and the posers. The electric car, although an old idea, is still avantgarde.
Otherwise, at the moment I wouldn´t buy an electric car. Reasons? 1.I can only afford one nice, or two very basic cars (so being a car-fan I go for 1). 2.Not enough refilling stations. 3.Range too short. An electric car should be able to do 200-300 km minimum, then it starts to make sense when you are NOT living in London or Tokio. 4.Electric cars are, so far, too ugly to put my eye on it. Jap-crap design won´t enter my garage.
| Quoting Elite (Reply 4): Nope - at least not now. This is the same reason why I don't go line up for the first iPod or iPhone or tech gadget - I want it to be tested and used so the basic bugs are found and fixed before I buy one. |
Same here. I would never buy overpriced avantgarde stuff, I leave that to the rich, the crazy and the posers. The electric car, although an old idea, is still avantgarde.
RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
| Quoting Aviation (Reply 3): Only thing that bugs me at the moment is well, bugs.. the current hybrids are just plain buggy |
Really? I you believe Consumer Reports, the Prius is one of the most reliable cars on the road. For all its faults, the car reliability figures they provide are pretty reliable (pardon the pun).
RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
But the Prius is ugly, not exactly cheap and in most circumstances no less thirsty than other cars. Also I doubt that the technical complexity will be in favour of longterm reliability. I don´t understand the hype around it anyway, as obviously do most of my countrymen. A Prius is as rare as a Ferrari here.
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- planesarecool
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RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
I'd buy one of these if I had £55,000 to blow:
But then again, if I had that, I wouldn't exactly care about the price of petrol, and I'd buy a new Lotus Elise for half the price.
But then again, if I had that, I wouldn't exactly care about the price of petrol, and I'd buy a new Lotus Elise for half the price.
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- Revelation
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RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
My current car is a 2006 model, and I plan to get 8 or so years out of it, and indeed in 2014 I think I should be able to get a pretty good electic car.
I saw an article in the Wall Street Journal last week showing how GM is working with the electric companies to get technology in place for the introduction of the GM Volt in 2011. There will be special plugs that go live when in the off-peak hours, and these plugs will be metered to give the electric company some sort of carbon credit for removing the use of equivalent amount of gasoline.
The cynic in me says the plugs will be metered so the cost of the electricity is elevated to that of gasoline, so the electic companies can make as much profit as possible. Hey, it works for Exxon-Mobil! Let's hope this doesn't happen.
Internal combustion engines are just so inefficient.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car
Also:
And:
Seems to me that by 2014 an electric car would be a good choice. Electric engines are dead-nuts simple so maintenence costs would be low. ICEs are 20% efficient whereas EVs are 80% efficient so the machine itself won't be generating tons of heat. The CO2 generation would be done in centralized locations that are easier to deal with than millions of exhaust pipes.
The math is simple enough, so that if the large car makers don't make the transition it seems clear that emerging producers will be glad to take the market from them.
The main issue is the batteries themselves. Their size and weight has to be minimized, and their efficiency has to be maximized. It seems we are well on the way to doing this, and with increased interest and competition, the price will go down.
I saw an article in the Wall Street Journal last week showing how GM is working with the electric companies to get technology in place for the introduction of the GM Volt in 2011. There will be special plugs that go live when in the off-peak hours, and these plugs will be metered to give the electric company some sort of carbon credit for removing the use of equivalent amount of gasoline.
The cynic in me says the plugs will be metered so the cost of the electricity is elevated to that of gasoline, so the electic companies can make as much profit as possible. Hey, it works for Exxon-Mobil! Let's hope this doesn't happen.
Internal combustion engines are just so inefficient.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car
| Quote: A car powered by an internal combustion engine at 20% efficiency, getting 8 L/100 km (30 mpg), will require (8.9*8)*0.20 = 14.2 kW·h/100 km. At a cost of $1/L, 8 L/100 km is $8 per 100 km. A battery electric version of that same car with a charge/discharge efficiency of 81%, and charged at a cost of $0.10 for kW·h would cost (14.2/0.81)*0.10 = $1.75 per 100 km, or would be paying the equivalent of $0.22/L. Other inefficiencies in an ICE not present in electric cars can further reduce these costs. The Tesla uses about 13 kW·h/100 km, the EV1 used about 11 kW·h/100 km |
Also:
| Quote: A 55% to 99.9% improvement in CO2 emissions takes place when driving an EV over an ICE (gasoline, diesel) vehicle depending on the source of electricity. |
And:
| Quote: New lithium-ion battery-equipped EVs provide 400–500 km (250–300 mi) of range per charge. |
Seems to me that by 2014 an electric car would be a good choice. Electric engines are dead-nuts simple so maintenence costs would be low. ICEs are 20% efficient whereas EVs are 80% efficient so the machine itself won't be generating tons of heat. The CO2 generation would be done in centralized locations that are easier to deal with than millions of exhaust pipes.
The math is simple enough, so that if the large car makers don't make the transition it seems clear that emerging producers will be glad to take the market from them.
The main issue is the batteries themselves. Their size and weight has to be minimized, and their efficiency has to be maximized. It seems we are well on the way to doing this, and with increased interest and competition, the price will go down.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
Would be suitable for my commute to work (9 miles each direction: 2 miles highway, the remainder is city with traffic lights and a railroad crossing with lots of trains on two tracks).
However, I am not searching for a replacement car at the moment and the next 3 years (I hope).
And my body would have to fit into that car (actually: I have problems in many modern cars (no SUVs etc) to see traffic lights as often my eyes are located higher than the upper end of the windscreen).
-HT
However, I am not searching for a replacement car at the moment and the next 3 years (I hope).
And my body would have to fit into that car (actually: I have problems in many modern cars (no SUVs etc) to see traffic lights as often my eyes are located higher than the upper end of the windscreen).
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
Right now both my vehicles are paid off. Between my wife and I, we spend about $130 in gas every 10 days or so.
A new car would mean new payments. Depending on the car, I would still have to pay for gas, albeit less. I imagine my utility bil would go up also.
My vehicles currently have a range of about 350 miles and 400 miles per tank. I'd want a replacement that at least comes close to that.
Will I buy an electric car? I'll consider it when the time comes to replace my 11 year old Explorer or the 5 year old Sebring. I tend to drive my cars until they are no longer drivable...so I expect a new car is still a few years away. Hopefully, by then the technology is better, the kinks worked out and the price has come down.
A new car would mean new payments. Depending on the car, I would still have to pay for gas, albeit less. I imagine my utility bil would go up also.
My vehicles currently have a range of about 350 miles and 400 miles per tank. I'd want a replacement that at least comes close to that.
Will I buy an electric car? I'll consider it when the time comes to replace my 11 year old Explorer or the 5 year old Sebring. I tend to drive my cars until they are no longer drivable...so I expect a new car is still a few years away. Hopefully, by then the technology is better, the kinks worked out and the price has come down.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
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- ScarletHarlot
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RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
| Quoting Planesarecool (Reply 9): I'd buy one of these if I had £55,000 to blow: |
We strongly considered buying a Tesla Roadster instead of the 911. If it was not so brand new - ie. none actually delivered to customers! - we might have done so. That would have been just plain cool.
I think Tesla is going to make some pretty amazing cars and maybe change the internal combustion game - that is, if they can survive their first few years or decade.
But that was when I ruled the world
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- aa757first
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RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
Just something I was wondering about plug-in cars. As it is now, when the power grid is overloaded (usually in the afternoon on hot days), we sometimes see rolling blackouts. Can our electrical infrastructure handle a significant number of people charging their electric vehicles?
RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
The big issue for me is the charging time which is several hours and even if you take very few long trips greater than the range it is a big problem. The plug in hybrid is the best system there currently is because you get 50 or so miles before you need to engage the gas motor and can run as long as you have gas.
Here are some ideas and I have listed what I think would be problems that we have to get around.
To make the electric car feasable for long trips is to install electrical outlets in parking lots which is already common in areas with cold winters for block heaters to be plugged into. As well as have an battery exchange system at fueling station such as what they do for propane tanks or make them easy enough to replace by the driver so they can carry spares that could be charged through the power adapter. The exchange system would require co-operation between the auto companies to all use the same type of battery in their cars and they need the competition to make the best ones. We could easily adapt to charging the battery every night and carrying a spare.
Also another possible solution to keep the battery charged would be to use a small wind turbine (a huge eyesore) or solar cells (only will work when sunny) on the roof to constantly charge the battery. Combining this with gas, CNG and even a Hydrogen hybrid technology you could potentially run a car for thousands of miles without needing to fill up.
Here are some ideas and I have listed what I think would be problems that we have to get around.
To make the electric car feasable for long trips is to install electrical outlets in parking lots which is already common in areas with cold winters for block heaters to be plugged into. As well as have an battery exchange system at fueling station such as what they do for propane tanks or make them easy enough to replace by the driver so they can carry spares that could be charged through the power adapter. The exchange system would require co-operation between the auto companies to all use the same type of battery in their cars and they need the competition to make the best ones. We could easily adapt to charging the battery every night and carrying a spare.
Also another possible solution to keep the battery charged would be to use a small wind turbine (a huge eyesore) or solar cells (only will work when sunny) on the roof to constantly charge the battery. Combining this with gas, CNG and even a Hydrogen hybrid technology you could potentially run a car for thousands of miles without needing to fill up.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
| Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 12): Right now both my vehicles are paid off. Between my wife and I, we spend about $130 in gas every 10 days or so. |
$5000 / yr after taxes on gasoline is quite a bit. A plug-in vehicle or something similar could probably pay for itself in your case.
| Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 12): My vehicles currently have a range of about 350 miles and 400 miles per tank. I'd want a replacement that at least comes close to that. |
You could have a 100 mile "runabout" and a gas vehicle for road trips... at least for most households that works out nicely.
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- Revelation
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RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
| Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 12): I'll consider it when the time comes to replace my 11 year old Explorer |
Hmm if you got 11 years out of it, it's probably time to replace it soon!
I had a '96 Explorer that I got 8 years and 140k miles out of, and then pretty much everything crapped out at once.| Quoting Aa757first (Reply 14): Just something I was wondering about plug-in cars. As it is now, when the power grid is overloaded (usually in the afternoon on hot days), we sometimes see rolling blackouts. Can our electrical infrastructure handle a significant number of people charging their electric vehicles? |
I read an artcile in WSJ where GE and Ford are working with the electric industry to define a standard for a new plug for electric cars. This plug will allow the utlility to turn off the current when it can't be supplied. Also it can be programmed to only charge off-peak.
| Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 15): The big issue for me is the charging time which is several hours and even if you take very few long trips greater than the range it is a big problem. |
In that case, I'd consider renting a gas-powered car for the big trips.
| Quoting Flighty (Reply 16): You could have a 100 mile "runabout" and a gas vehicle for road trips... at least for most households that works out nicely. |
My daily commute is around 60 miles. I would be happy
with doing my driving, and at night, plugging it in to charge during the off-peak hours.
On average, once a month I make a trip that's around 300 miles round trip. I hope electric cars can get to that range by 2014 or so, or that places where I can plug in (at inns, hotels, etc) overnight become common so I can do 150 miles then plug in the car at night.
Anything longer than that, I'd be OK with renting a car.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
| Quoting Analog (Reply 7): Really? I you believe Consumer Reports, the Prius is one of the most reliable cars on the road. For all its faults, the car reliability figures they provide are pretty reliable (pardon the pun). |
| Quoting NA (Reply 8): But the Prius is ugly, not exactly cheap and in most circumstances no less thirsty than other cars. Also I doubt that the technical complexity will be in favour of longterm reliability. I don´t understand the hype around it anyway, as obviously do most of my countrymen. A Prius is as rare as a Ferrari here. |
Pretty much why I didn't mention the Prius
Signed, Aaron Nicoli - Trans World Airlines Collector
RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
I won't get an electric car until supercapacitor battery packs made with carbon nanotubes become widely available. Once these arrive we'll have both long range and fast recharge times.
Once these arrive we'll have both long range and fast recharge times.-
- Boeing4ever
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RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
Electric cars don't get the mileage I need and only transfer the pollution from the exhaust pipe to the power plant.
Besides that, automakers such as GM, Honda, Ford, and BMW are working on and making some progress with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, though that technology also has issues, such as making and storing the hydrogen (and the amount of energy input necessary).
So the answer is never. I expect plug-in electrics to either be completely displaced by a more versatile option like Kodak Advantix film was, or be limited to city center niches.
?
?B4e-Forever New Frontiers??
[Edited 2008-07-30 04:41:29]
Besides that, automakers such as GM, Honda, Ford, and BMW are working on and making some progress with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, though that technology also has issues, such as making and storing the hydrogen (and the amount of energy input necessary).
So the answer is never. I expect plug-in electrics to either be completely displaced by a more versatile option like Kodak Advantix film was, or be limited to city center niches.
?
?B4e-Forever New Frontiers??[Edited 2008-07-30 04:41:29]
RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
| Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 20): Electric cars don't get the mileage I need and only transfer the pollution from the exhaust pipe to the power plant. |
I get my electrical power from a supplier who distributes only energy "created" from water, wind and sun. No coal, no nuclear energy, no oil, no gas. I don´t pay a penny more than before. Kick the big monopolist stranglers in the butt!
RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
A plug in hybrid makes pretty good sense if you define your radius of operation pretty carefully. It'd make a good vehicle for everyday use, particularly if the manufacturers would offer a station wagon/sedan-delivery version. You could save the Jag for the occasional gas sucking romp to Las Vegas or whatever.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
| Quoting Flighty (Reply 16):
$5000 / yr after taxes on gasoline is quite a bit. A plug-in vehicle or something similar could probably pay for itself in your case. |
You still need to factor in the cost of fueling the new vehicle, whether in higher utilities or gas. Also, I need 2 cars...so double the payment and fueling costs. Right now, at $130/10 days, it works out to one car payment a month. I can live with that.
| Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):
Hmm if you got 11 years out of it, it's probably time to replace it soon! I had a '96 Explorer that I got 8 years and 140k miles out of, and then pretty much everything crapped out at once. |
I'm at 130K or so. Put a new front end into it 5000 miles ago. I'm planning to replace it when either the engine or the transmission gives up the ghost. So far, neither shows any indication of doing so
.
I'm not against the electric or hybrid. I just don't think the technology is quite there yet. I'm still concerned about the added cost of utilities. If we all start plugging in...where will the power come from? More powerplants. Anyone really think the current congress will allow more nuclear? Please...even if they bow down to economics and reality...the moron enviro-nazis will do everything they can to stop ANY powerplant, whether it's nuclear, coal, oil, water or bean sprouts.
Let's pay attention to the law of unintended consequences when we answer this question: What happens when a large portion of the population adds an electric car to the grid? Who is going to pay to put all these extra outlets in public areas. Who pays for the electricity used (well, you can use a coin fed meter, I guess). My concern is infra-structure to support such a move.
[Edited 2008-07-30 12:17:04]
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
| Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 23): I just don't think the technology is quite there yet |
It isn't finished yet. We are only 5-10 years into a 30 year journey. Gas engines are perfected. But hybrid powertrains will get there soon. Toyota is already designing what, v4.0. That is getting pretty good. But you're right, they are not fully proved out yet.
One they are, though, gas cars will just look silly. No one will want them.
| Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 23): My concern is infra-structure to support such a move. |
Of course, but this is comparing a minor illness to full blown AIDS (our current oil consumption) or that is how some of us see it. Electricity is made in the USA. And electric cars are way cheaper to charge up and drive than gasoline cars.
A 200 mile charge costs like $3.00 or something on the Tesla roadster. It does cost money.. just not a lot.. but of course I still drive a gas car, but the future will be different I hope.
RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
What about this one, the Chevrolet Volt:
Signed, Aaron Nicoli - Trans World Airlines Collector
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- Boeing4ever
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RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
| Quoting NA (Reply 21): I get my electrical power from a supplier who distributes only energy "created" from water, wind and sun. No coal, no nuclear energy, no oil, no gas. I don´t pay a penny more than before. Kick the big monopolist stranglers in the butt! |
Well, I'm glad you have that option. Being a bit of a transient, I'm never fully aware of where my electricity comes from. The town I grew up in gets its energy from ComEd...I believe it's a mix of coal and nuclear.
Most of us don't have a choice of energy provider unfortunately.
B4e-Forever New Frontiers RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
I'm waiting for this to come out.
I work at a Volvo store, so I would hope I could get it for employee price!
I work at a Volvo store, so I would hope I could get it for employee price!
The best things in life aren't things!
RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
| Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 15): Also another possible solution to keep the battery charged would be to use a small wind turbine (a huge eyesore) or solar cells (only will work when sunny) on the roof to constantly charge the battery. |
There is no free lunch and neither one is going to move you and your vehicle more than a few feet.
I will when they get the storage worked out. EEStor has developed a capacitor that looks very promising for car use. Enough so that Lockheed-Martin has invested in it. Charges in 5 minutes with far more range and far less weight. Hopefully this is not vaporware, we will find out very soon.
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- aerobalance
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RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
Keep the weight down and I'll consider it.
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
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- Revelation
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RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
| Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 20): Electric cars don't get the mileage I need and only transfer the pollution from the exhaust pipe to the power plant. |
IMHO it's better at one power plant instead of thousands of exaust pipes.
I guess you may have not seen this:
| Quoting Revelation (Reply 10): A 55% to 99.9% improvement in CO2 emissions takes place when driving an EV over an ICE (gasoline, diesel) vehicle depending on the source of electricity. |
Bottom line is less CO2 and other pollutants in the air we breathe.
| Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 20): Besides that, automakers such as GM, Honda, Ford, and BMW are working on and making some progress with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, though that technology also has issues, such as making and storing the hydrogen (and the amount of energy input necessary). |
IMHO I think we won't see hydrogen widely deployed, due to the cost of the infrastructure. Electricity is already widely deployed.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
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- Boeing4ever
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RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
| Quoting Revelation (Reply 30): IMHO it's better at one power plant instead of thousands of exaust pipes. I guess you may have not seen this: Quoting Revelation (Reply 10): A 55% to 99.9% improvement in CO2 emissions takes place when driving an EV over an ICE (gasoline, diesel) vehicle depending on the source of electricity. Bottom line is less CO2 and other pollutants in the air we breathe. |
To me it's a case of "out of sight, out of mind". But the pollution is still there. That electricity has to come from somewhere. But the addage of there's no free lunch is applied to everything really.
| Quoting Revelation (Reply 30): IMHO I think we won't see hydrogen widely deployed, due to the cost of the infrastructure. Electricity is already widely deployed. |
Plausible, but until battery capacity allows for greater flexibility, I suspect we'll move gradually from gasoline to gasoline-hybrids and biodiesel to a new liquid fuel (IMO liquid hydrogen). The same arguments against the gasoline infrastructure existed back in the days of horse and buggy. Unless the batteries offer vastly improved storage capacity, then vehicles will need their own powerplants. I drive great distances across the midwestern US. Frankly, I'm happy to have a 4-banger with good mileage right now. And good mileage is key. I don't want to see my gasline expenses simply replaced by a higher electric bill, I want cheap, clean, renewable energy. For urban centers though, electricity will have a good niche.
B4e-Forever New Frontiers RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
Just wait until it comes to to replace your battery packs........!!! Cheaper my butt......
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
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- Revelation
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RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
| Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 23): I'm not against the electric or hybrid. I just don't think the technology is quite there yet. |
Yes, that's a fair statement.
| Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 23): I'm still concerned about the added cost of utilities. If we all start plugging in...where will the power come from? More powerplants. |
The basic idea is to have a place to charge your car at home, and only charge during off peak hours. The calculations show that there is indeed enough capacity out there to deal with this without adding power plants.
| Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 23): Anyone really think the current congress will allow more nuclearI? Please...even if they bow down to economics and reality...the moron enviro-nazis will do everything they can to stop ANY powerplant, whether it's nuclear, coal, oil, water or bean sprouts. |
I would love to see this country take energy independence seriously and nuclear energy is a big part of that.
| Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 23): Let's pay attention to the law of unintended consequences when we answer this question: What happens when a large portion of the population adds an electric car to the grid? Who is going to pay to put all these extra outlets in public areas. Who pays for the electricity used (well, you can use a coin fed meter, I guess). My concern is infra-structure to support such a move. |
Yes, it'd be metered, just like no one gives you gas for free. Probably have a credit card swipe. But again it'd be best if everyone charged at night where there's all that excess capacity.
| Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 31): To me it's a case of "out of sight, out of mind". But the pollution is still there. That electricity has to come from somewhere. But the addage of there's no free lunch is applied to everything really. |
Not many of us see the energy used to drill for oil, transport it to refineries, refine it, pipeline it to distibution hubs, truck it to gas stations, etc. All of these are producing pollution as well.
As an engineer I can tell you anti-pollution is more effictive at one big power plant instead of thousands of individual cars. Not to mention the car isn't having to carry around the catalytic converter everywhere it goes.
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RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
| Quoting Revelation (Reply 33): Not many of us see the energy used to drill for oil, transport it to refineries, refine it, pipeline it to distibution hubs, truck it to gas stations, etc. All of these are producing pollution as well. As an engineer I can tell you anti-pollution is more effictive at one big power plant instead of thousands of individual cars. Not to mention the car isn't having to carry around the catalytic converter everywhere it goes. |
Not arguing with you about pollution from the production of oil, but for the amount of energy we put in, we still get more out of fossil fuels. That's one hard reality that has kept us wed to hydrocarbons unfortunately. Either way, for a power plant, let's say coal fired, you need to mine the coal, process it, then transport it to be burned. It's not just at the power plant.
And while cleaner, if an electric car is still limited in range and has to frequently recharge on long trips, then the practicality just isn't there. Plus it's not just emissions pollution. Don't forget disposal of the vehicle. The chemicals in today's cars are bad enough. Now we've got battery acids.
No one said it would be easy...
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| Quoting Revelation (Reply 33): Yes, it'd be metered, just like no one gives you gas for free. Probably have a credit card swipe. But again it'd be best if everyone charged at night where there's all that excess capacity. |
A portion of society, me included (unfortunately), would be charging during the day. Probably not enough to strain the grid but who knows. We already deal with rolling brown/blackouts in the summer. I just don't think the power infrastructure can support a mass migration at this point.
| Quoting EMBQA (Reply 32): Just wait until it comes to to replace your battery packs........!!! Cheaper my butt...... |
But the fuel cost you don't pay offsets, hopefully, the cost of the batteries.
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RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
| Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 34): Not arguing with you about pollution from the production of oil, but for the amount of energy we put in, we still get more out of fossil fuels. That's one hard reality that has kept us wed to hydrocarbons unfortunately. Either way, for a power plant, let's say coal fired, you need to mine the coal, process it, then transport it to be burned. It's not just at the power plant. |
Yep, energy density of fossil fuels is very good. That's what allows you to drive around in a car that's ony 15% or so efficient.
| Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 34): And while cleaner, if an electric car is still limited in range and has to frequently recharge on long trips, then the practicality just isn't there. Plus it's not just emissions pollution. Don't forget disposal of the vehicle. The chemicals in today's cars are bad enough. Now we've got battery acids. |
Well, I don't think gasoline powered cars will disappear overnight. I guess I don't take enough long car trips to worry much about range, once we get to 200 miles range I'm good. If I'd ever need to take a longer trip, I'd rent a gasoline powered car.
| Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 34): No one said it would be easy... |
Yes, there's no free lunch.
| Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 35): A portion of society, me included (unfortunately), would be charging during the day. Probably not enough to strain the grid but who knows. We already deal with rolling brown/blackouts in the summer. I just don't think the power infrastructure can support a mass migration at this point. |
Yes, I see your point. Just because my circumstances allow for an electric car, not everyone's does.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
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RE: Will You Buy An Electric Car?
| Quoting Revelation (Reply 36): Yep, energy density of fossil fuels is very good. That's what allows you to drive around in a car that's ony 15% or so efficient. |
You gotta get kicked in the ass sometime in the chain. Otherwise, life wouldn't be life.
That said a vehicle that can either recharge itself or produce some power would be ideal. An electric car is great in efficiency, but a lot of us need range and endurance, which is what's really driving up demand in fuel. If the average gasoline car got 50 mpg, heck even just 30 mpg, I'd imagine pump prices wouldn't be stimulating this discussion.
Right now, the Chevy Volt seems like the perfect commuter vehicle.
| Quoting Revelation (Reply 36): Well, I don't think gasoline powered cars will disappear overnight. I guess I don't take enough long car trips to worry much about range, once we get to 200 miles range I'm good. If I'd ever need to take a longer trip, I'd rent a gasoline powered car. |
From what I'm seeing in this discussion it seems the future of automobiles will see a split between pure electrics, gasoline (including hybrids), biodiesels, and the new alternative (perhaps hydrogen).
The winner will be the one that has the most versatility, while being as clean, cheap, and efficient to operate as practically possible.
| Quoting Revelation (Reply 10): The cynic in me says the plugs will be metered so the cost of the electricity is elevated to that of gasoline, so the electic companies can make as much profit as possible. Hey, it works for Exxon-Mobil! Let's hope this doesn't happen. |
I'd call you a realist actually, not a cynic.
| Quoting NA (Reply 8): But the Prius is ugly, not exactly cheap and in most circumstances no less thirsty than other cars. Also I doubt that the technical complexity will be in favour of longterm reliability. I don´t understand the hype around it anyway, as obviously do most of my countrymen. A Prius is as rare as a Ferrari here. |
When on the battery, you're wasting energy hauling around the shut off gasoline engine. When on the gasoline engine, you're expending energy moving the car and charging the battery. Not what I call efficient. It's like paying to maintain and operate two engines!
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