Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
bristolflyer
Posts: 2103
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 1:35 am

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:57 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 48):
Um, you can't be arrested for that

Are you sure? I thought you can be arrested for verbally abusing a police officer? Or at least a breach of the peace?
 
Cadet57
Posts: 7170
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:02 am

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:02 am



Quoting BristolFlyer (Reply 50):
Are you sure? I thought you can be arrested for verbally abusing a police officer?

Next time you get pulled over, call the cop an a**hole and see what happens  Wink
 
N1120A
Posts: 27009
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:03 am



Quoting BristolFlyer (Reply 50):

Are you sure? I thought you can be arrested for verbally abusing a police officer? Or at least a breach of the peace?

Swearing at anyone, especially a police officer, may be in bad taste but cannot constitutionally be made illegal.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:15 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 52):
Swearing at anyone, especially a police officer, may be in bad taste but cannot constitutionally be made illegal.

What about contempt of court?
 
huskyaviation
Posts: 912
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:38 am

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:20 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
Um, those bikes were driving in compliance with traffic laws as far as I could tell.

Um, I saw no arm signals nor did I see signals to change lanes. I did see traffic being impeded though.
 
N1120A
Posts: 27009
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:25 am



Quoting Pope (Reply 53):
What about contempt of court?

Huh? The police are not a court.
 
N1120A
Posts: 27009
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:26 am



Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 54):
I did see traffic being impeded though.

By the police.
 
bristolflyer
Posts: 2103
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 1:35 am

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:12 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 55):
Huh? The police are not a court.

I think what he was implying was that you said that you can swear at anyone without it being illegal, so he was going for an extreme case. Corrct me if I'm wrong Pope!

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 54):
Um, I saw no arm signals nor did I see signals to change lanes. I did see traffic being impeded though

That road looked like it had been closed down for the demonstration. I really can't see a case upheld in court whereby someone is accused of not using hand signals in a road that is closed.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:26 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 52):
Swearing at anyone, especially a police officer, may be in bad taste but cannot constitutionally be made illegal.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 55):
Huh? The police are not a court.

I believe your first statement establishes your premise that swearing at anyone cannot constitutionally be made illegal. I was simply asking whether if a judge holds someone in contempt for swearing at the court, whether you believe that would be illegal.
 
johns624
Posts: 4558
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:26 am

First of all, I've seen many cyclists break the law...running red lights, etc. On the other hand, I find it funny that so many on this forum are getting on them for "failing to signal", "running stop signs", etc, etc. How many of you in your cars never roll a stop sign, don't signal changing lanes, make a right on red without coming to a stop, exceed the speed limit?---I could go on and on...

[Edited 2008-07-30 18:28:25]
 
Cadet57
Posts: 7170
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:02 am

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:26 am



Quoting BristolFlyer (Reply 57):
I really can't see a case upheld in court whereby someone is accused of not using hand signals in a road that is closed.

But just because the road is closed to vehicular traffic does not mean the rules dont apply. Kind of like the user's here maybe a year or so ago who defended running red lights at 2am. Just because there isnt anyone around doesn't make it legal.
 
bristolflyer
Posts: 2103
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 1:35 am

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:33 am



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 59):
Kind of like the user's here maybe a year or so ago who defended running red lights at 2am

Nothing like that - I agree that a red light is a red light whether it's 2pm or 2am. When an enire multi-lane road is closed for a demonstration and you are a demonstrator as well on a bicycle and you don't signal to change lanes - you think anyone is ever going to get arrested for that?

Perhaps the people of Paris can chime in - I believe that some of their main roads are closed at weekends for walkers/bikers/rollerbladers to use. Do people still use arm signals to lane change? If not, do they get arrested?
 
N1120A
Posts: 27009
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:35 am



Quoting Pope (Reply 60):
I was simply asking whether if a judge holds someone in contempt for swearing at the court, whether you believe that would be illegal.

Being in contempt of court isn't actually a question of law, at least not law by statute. Then again, if someone were actually tried for criminal contempt, one incident of swearing would not likely be enough. They would have to do it multiple times and disobey an order of the court not to do so.
 
huskyaviation
Posts: 912
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:38 am

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:38 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 56):
By the police.

I watched the YouTube video and I did not see any police stopping traffic at the intersection the bikers were passing through. There were many stopped cars though--Critical Mass apparently uses corking as one of their methods.

Quoting BristolFlyer (Reply 57):
I really can't see a case upheld in court whereby someone is accused of not using hand signals in a road that is closed.

First of all, the road was not closed. Second, I wasn't asserting that what the cop did was right, merely I was disagreeing with the assertion that "all traffic laws were being followed."
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:38 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 62):
Being in contempt of court isn't actually a question of law, at least not law by statute. Then again, if someone were actually tried for criminal contempt, one incident of swearing would not likely be enough. They would have to do it multiple times and disobey an order of the court not to do so.

How can one then be detained by the court if there isn't probable cause to believe that they've broken the law?
 
N1120A
Posts: 27009
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:40 am



Quoting Pope (Reply 64):

How can one then be detained by the court if there isn't probable cause to believe that they've broken the law?

Huh? A court can detain anyone. Contempt of court is completely different from actually breaking the law.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:03 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 65):
Huh? A court can detain anyone. Contempt of court is completely different from actually breaking the law.

How can people be detained for constitutionally permissible speech?
 
N1120A
Posts: 27009
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:43 am



Quoting Pope (Reply 66):

How can people be detained for constitutionally permissible speech?

If such speech is in contempt of court. A police officer is not a judge.
 
User avatar
fxramper
Posts: 5839
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:03 pm

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:29 am

I've done the Critical Mass Midnight Ride in Austin for 4 years running now and have seen way worse when it comes to the behavior of the cyclists and the Austin Police Dept has done nothing but make sure a rider doesn't get hit by a car, but less assaulted by an officer. This video makes me sick.
 
Cadet57
Posts: 7170
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:02 am

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:25 am



Quoting BristolFlyer (Reply 61):
hen an enire multi-lane road is closed for a demonstration

The road was not closed.
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14785
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:08 am

What would be the chances if had been No Video

that a majority would say

- the lefties were asking for it
- the policeman was assaulted as reported.

I think here on a net... 75% ?

and then how many incdents are there without a video camera?
 
itsjustme
Posts: 2742
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:58 pm

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:00 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 46):
It is blatantly obvious that the biker didn't

Yes, because our resident cop hater was there and has all the facts, right? Your basing your opinion that it was "blatantly obvious" on a few seconds of video. How about if we wait until the incident is investigated before jumping to any conclusions?

That being said, yes, the video looks bad as do the conflicting statements the officer made in his report and if it is determined his actions were unprovoked, then charge him and end his career as a cop.

Also, not to split hairs but if he is charged and convicted of a misdemeanor, which is possible, he won't do any "prison" time. If he does any time at all, it will be in "jail". Big difference between the two.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:57 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 67):
If such speech is in contempt of court. A police officer is not a judge.

Nobody is debating that a judge is not a police officer.

However, you said swearing at anyone cannot constitutionally be made illegal. But now you say that a judge can detain you for swearing. There seems to be a disconnect.
 
ronglimeng
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:12 pm

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:37 pm

I guess judges can exercise discretion about holding people in contempt.

I recall a story in a Toronto paper a few years ago. The scene was a courtroom. The accused had been found guilty, sentenced, and was being taken away.

THE SENTENCED (to the judge): You dirty c_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _r !

THE JUDGE (to the court): That's the trouble nowadays. Nobody can keep a secret!
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:32 pm



Quoting BristolFlyer (Reply 15):
There's no defending that officer's actions.

Firstly he's stupid for doing it.

Secondly he's even more stupid for doing it in a public place that is highly likely to have video cameras running, and opening himslef up to be yet another youtube shaming statistic.

Pogan lied about the incident under oath in a deposition, which suggests that perjury charges should be lodged.
 
N1120A
Posts: 27009
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:28 pm



Quoting Pope (Reply 72):
However, you said swearing at anyone cannot constitutionally be made illegal. But now you say that a judge can detain you for swearing. There seems to be a disconnect.

Illegal suggests that a law is involved.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 71):
Yes, because our resident cop hater was there and has all the facts, right?

I don't hate cops. I loathe bad cops, and unfortunately there are too many. They are not the majority, but they are not a small enough minority.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:31 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 75):
Illegal suggests that a law is involved.

So how can a judge detain you for not breaking the law?
 
N1120A
Posts: 27009
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:48 pm



Quoting Pope (Reply 76):

So how can a judge detain you for not breaking the law?

Because they are the judge. That really is the best answer.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:58 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 77):
Because they are the judge. That really is the best answer.

So the judiciary is above the Constitution?
 
N1120A
Posts: 27009
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:03 pm



Quoting Pope (Reply 78):

So the judiciary is above the Constitution?

The judiciary decides what is constitutional and what isn't, and they have decided that the power of judicial sanction is necessary.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:36 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 79):
The judiciary decides what is constitutional and what isn't, and they have decided that the power of judicial sanction is necessary.

Necessary and constitutional seem to diverge.
 
N1120A
Posts: 27009
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:50 pm



Quoting Pope (Reply 80):

Necessary and constitutional seem to diverge.

Not necessarily (no pun intended). The use of judicial sanction almost certain would pass strict scrutiny if anyone every really challenged it.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:12 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 81):
The use of judicial sanction almost certain would pass strict scrutiny if anyone every really challenged it.

How so? You've got government action in the context of far less intrusive means available.

I stood in a court room and said, "this judicial system is for shit" how big of a burden would it be for the court to order my removal?
 
dragon-wings
Topic Author
Posts: 4187
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2001 4:55 am

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:27 pm

This should not be a suprise to anyone, but the union is backing the police officer.

http://wcbstv.com/local/cop.slams.biker.2.783370.html

"PBA officials are defending the rookie officer's actions on Wednesday morning, saying Pogan saw Logan weaving in and out of traffic and took action in order to help prevent a hazardous situation."

I think it's pretty funny because in the first link I posted it said the biker deliberately steered his bicycle into the officer, causing both of them to fall to the ground.
 
N1120A
Posts: 27009
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:34 pm



Quoting Pope (Reply 82):
I stood in a court room and said, "this judicial system is for shit" how big of a burden would it be for the court to order my removal?

They would probably admonish you to not say anything, then order you removed, then toss you in jail.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:53 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 84):
They would probably admonish you to not say anything, then order you removed, then toss you in jail.

Which brings us full circle to the point I made that swear words alone can get you thrown in jail.
 
N1120A
Posts: 27009
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:19 pm



Quoting Pope (Reply 85):

Which brings us full circle to the point I made that swear words alone can get you thrown in jail.

Which, of course, was not what I stated
 
itsjustme
Posts: 2742
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:58 pm

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:42 am



Quoting Dragon-wings (Reply 83):
PBA officials are defending the rookie officer's actions

I don't fault the union for backing an officer. That's their job and that's one of the reasons we pay union dues. However, what I do find interesting is an officer with only 6 months on the job is entitled to union representation.

Also, in looking at the video a few more times, I noticed the second officer moved toward the bicyclist at exactly the same time as the officer who made the contact did. That would indicate that, of the hundreds of bikes coming at the officers, both officers were focusing on the same bicyclist for some reason. Hmmmmmm.
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:07 pm



Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 87):
Also, in looking at the video a few more times, I noticed the second officer moved toward the bicyclist at exactly the same time as the officer who made the contact did. That would indicate that, of the hundreds of bikes coming at the officers, both officers were focusing on the same bicyclist for some reason. Hmmmmmm.

Ummmmm, he kinda lied under oath. That should take care of your suspicions. I figure he'd just had enough of critical mass provocateurs, wasn't having a good day and acted without thinking and then tried to cover it up.

A common enough mistake but one that is prohibited to people entrusted with great power by the state.
 
itsjustme
Posts: 2742
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:58 pm

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:43 pm



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 88):
Ummmmm, he kinda lied under oath.

Ummmmmm, he hasn't been found guilty of doing anything yet. His actions and subsequent statements are being investigated and he has been placed on restrictive duty while the investigation is on-going.
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:43 pm



Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 89):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 88):
Ummmmm, he kinda lied under oath.

Ummmmmm, he hasn't been found guilty of doing anything yet. His actions and subsequent statements are being investigated and he has been placed on restrictive duty while the investigation is on-going.

I don't know where you're coming from with this. Fuck Pogan, he's a thug. He's a stain on the reputation of honest policemen everywhere who are trying to do a competent job under trying conditions.
 
itsjustme
Posts: 2742
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:58 pm

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:31 pm



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 90):
I don't know where you're coming from with this.

Where I'm coming from is you are forming an opinion, a rather harsh one at that ("Fuck Pogan, he's a thug" for example), based on a very short video and some sketchy media reports. I wear the same uniform as Pogan and if the investigation finds he acted outside the law then I'll be calling for his dismissal and the filing of criminal charges, assuming they're warranted, quicker than most.
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:47 pm



Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 91):
I wear the same uniform as Pogan

Then there should be no doubt in your mind what happened.

Pogan is New York's answer to Stacey Koon. If i wore the same uniform as him I'd take it to the dry cleaners.
 
itsjustme
Posts: 2742
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:58 pm

RE: NYC Cop Body Checks A Passing Bicyclist

Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:49 am



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 92):
Then there should be no doubt in your mind what happened.

Are you serious? It's because I wear the same uniform as Pogan that I am not judging a fellow officer's actions based solely on a video and sketchy media reports. I have been on the receiving end of ill-deserved public chastising thanks to a 23 second video of an arrest I was effecting that was shot with a cell phone so you'll have to forgive me if I'm not overly anxious to call for the officer's head on a platter until there's been a full investigation.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 92):
Pogan is New York's answer to Stacey Koon. If i wore the same uniform as him I'd take it to the dry cleaners.

We're straying from the topic but I feel the need to say that Koon and Powell were railroaded. The Federal Gov't didn't want to chance a repeat of the L.A. riots so they found that the two officers (I believe there were 4 that were tried Federally) had violated King's civil rights. The Supremes had their chance to do the right thing and overturn the lower court's decision but, instead, upheld the decision and significantly reduced the former officer's sentences.

That being said, I respect their findings but I suggest you read Koon's book to get the other side of the story; It's quite enlightening. It's not the first time 2 white officers have been made scape goats while effecting the arrest of a black suspect. Former officers Budzyn and Nevers of the Detroit Police Department suffered the same results in 1993, shortly after the King riots in L.A.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos