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Blackbird
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:44 am

I thought Putin was out of power?
 
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Tugger
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:02 am

Well apparently Georgian forces are withdrawing from area's of South Ossetia:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/10/georgia.russia/index.html

Quote:
Georgian troops pulled out of Tskhinvali on Sunday. The Georgian national council chief said the withdrawal was a show of goodwill, aimed at encouraging Russia to accept a cease-fire after days of escalating violence.

Couldn't hold them? Or is it really a "good will" move?

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 92):
Yes, Georgia didn't attack Russia per se, but Georgia attacked Russian citizens in South Osetia. Georgian "peacekeepers" fired the first shots in this conflict. This shortly after Georgia declaring it's intention of a cease fire.

Are there problems within the Georgian military? Between the military and the political leaders?

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 100):
I thought Putin was out of power?

Putin was president, then his hand picked successor (Medvedev, you might have heard of him)won the presidency and nominated Putin to be Prime Minister. Putin is still very much in power.

Tugg

[Edited 2008-08-10 01:03:18]
 
GDB
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:08 am

No Acheron, the West was properly appalled by Chechen terror attacks, culminating in Beslan.
They were also appalled by how the Russians botched trying to resolve it, rather like the Moscow theatre siege.
Where they showed traits very common in the Chechen wars, incompetence mixed with brutality.

I agree no one is a saint in all this, the Georgians have been foolhardy to say the least, but understand, many see this in the context of the Russian bullying and threats against those states who they don't seem to be able to stop trying to boss around.
Who have the temerity to be able to largely run successful societies, worse they have the cheek to have generally higher average male mortality rates than the Russian figure of 58 years.
 
Blackbird
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:52 am

Who's higher in the Russian government? President or Prime Minister?

Blackbird
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:10 am



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 103):
Who's higher in the Russian government? President or Prime Minister?

The one, who pulls the strings of the other. Go figure.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:22 pm

Ukraine has threatened Russian warships could be barred to return to their Sevastropol (Ukraine ) naval-base,should they take part in hostilities against Georgia.

http://www.reuters.com/article/asiaCrisis/idUSLA480092
 
NAV20
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:03 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 105):
Ukraine has threatened Russian warships could be barred to return to their Sevastropol (Ukraine ) naval-base,should they take part in hostilities against Georgia.

Interesting point, Beaucaire, thanks.

Strategically, Sevastopol is the key. Looking at the map, there are only two routes available to NATO if it wanted to intervene in Georgia (which is on the north shore of the Black Sea).

The first is by road via Turkey. That appears to be totally impractical - even if Turkey was crazy enough to allow any such operation, they'd have to fight their way through about 200 miles of mountainous country before they got close enough to Ossetia to do any good at all. As Colin Powell memorably said to George Bush Senior about US/NATO forces, "We do deserts - we DON'T do mountains......"

The other option is a seaborne invasion. Even disregarding NATO's lack of landing ships (Britain had hurriedly to borrow Australia's two landing ships, otherwise the amphibious operation aganst Basra in Gulf War Two simply wouldn't have been practicable), anything that you wanted to ship into the Black Sea would have to come through the Dardanelles.

As Britain and France discovered way back in 1915, you have to 'establish control' of the Dardanelles before you can use them to carry out any sort of military operation in the Black Sea. Otherwise (given that they're only 20 miles wide, and shallow) a couple of submarines could sink just about every ship you try to send through them.

In this case, on top of that, any NATO naval force trying to mount an amphibious operation against Russian forces established in Georgia would have to travel about 400 miles across the Black Sea, all the time being no more that 200 miles (and often less than 100 miles) from all the air and naval resources that Russia has 'on tap' at Sevastopol.

Many years back I (unwisely) said to a lecturer that some of his quotes from Clausewitz about 'strategy' were 'out-dated.' He replied, "Yes in a way - weapons change, capabilities change, ranges change, all the details change and evolve over time."

But then added, very wisely, "But the basics of geography and terrain DON'T change nearly as much. Clausewitz would have seen the folly of the Gallipoli campaign straight away - long before the rest of us, even with the benefit of fifty years of hindsight, might ever have done.........."
 
Beaucaire
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:54 pm

NAV20 - Ukraine might be the only serious friend Georgia has left after their foolish invasion..
Nobody will defend Russian troop destructions and in-appropriate tough response to un un-neccessary wrong move by Saakashvili - but ultimately he triggered this destaster without valid reason.
As you rightfully said,the Dardanelles have already intrigued the old Kaiser and Sultan Abdülhamid II,one does not have to be a great strategist to understand the importance of that place..Clausewitz has never lost it's validity !
While the Russian Blacksea-fleet is important in size ,it can be easily contained in their waters.
Turkey would never ever allow any land-troops to cross into the Caucasus without a very good reason-the current conflict is not one that Erdogan would consider worthwile to shell Turkey's relation with Moscow.Georgia has to get out of this mess by itself -and the days of Saakishvili seem counted.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:41 pm

A Georgian warship trying to attack a Russian vessel was sunk by the Russian navy this evening...

http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/20...-une-vedette-georgienne-coulee.php

[Edited 2008-08-10 11:45:10]
 
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:41 pm

I am being very careful of any dis-information twisting and distorting the news by big channels such as the Beeb, CNN, AP, Pravda in English... and others. I am looking more at the independent news channels that I can find.
 
L-188
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:46 pm

So where are all the activists protesting the use of unguided bombs and missiles by the Soviets?

Events like this really show how differents the US method of using masses of PGM's vers the area bombing by the Russians.

I just wish the US would get credit for actually trying to reduce casulties in these blows ups.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:52 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 111):
vers the area bombing by the Russians.


Quoting L-188 (Reply 111):
the use of unguided bombs and missiles by the Soviets?

Can you quote your sources, please.

***

From Russia Today:
Joe Mestas, American citizen living in South Ossetia, who witnessed everything that happening in the region, talked to RT and blamed U.S. and Georgian leaders for the outbreak of violence.

http://www.russiatoday.ru/news/news/28788/video

[Edited 2008-08-10 13:05:25]
 
GDB
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:23 pm

I think it is a fundamental error to assume the 'major' news channels are spreading 'disinformation', that can be avoided by more 'independent' sources.
Independent of who exactly, CNN is not run like the BBC, who are not run like their European counterparts.
These so called independents, are usually more likely to be sources for a much more partial view of the situation.

It now seems that S.Ossetia is about to be, or is actually, under Russian control.
So if/when this is the case, what will be the Russian justification for continued assaults on Georgia?

Did the Georgian leader really think that there would be direct Western intervention, or severe pressure/threats on Russia?
Maybe he thought those troops of his stationed in Iraq meant this would be the case, despite the fact that Georgia is not a NATO member. And won't be while there is this serious a territorial dispute there.
Troops that would be more useful at home than in the Mid East right now.

For Russia, they might just also think that giving Georgia a clobbering sends a message to other states near them that they don't like.

NAV20, whatever happened in 2003, the RN has had it's amphibious capability totally transformed since.
Not that this of course, has any bearing on the situation in Georgia.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:59 pm

The Russians and the Georgian diplomats at the United Nations are now accusing each other of waging genocide, and the Russians are claiming that the UN Secretary-General is supporting Georgia in the conflict.

Georgia's UN ambassador, Irakli Alasania, said it was "Russia's intention to erase Georgian statehood, to exterminate Georgian people."

Russian Ambassador Vitaly Churkin, meanwhile, accused Georgia of waging "genocide" against South Ossetians. Churkin also accused the U.N. secretary-general's office of taking Georgia's side.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 108):
A Georgian warship trying to attack a Russian vessel was sunk by the Russian navy this evening...

Clarification on the type of Georgian vessel that was sunk: "Russia also claimed its forces sank a Georgian missile boat that was trying to attack Russian ships in the Black Sea."

Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26116598/
 
dc863
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:08 pm



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 96):
Comparing Ossetia with Kosovo is a joke by the way, remember that Ossetia has about 70,000 people compared to 2 million Albanians in Kosovo which wanted independence

They are similar conditions. The difference in population is irrelevant. S. Ossetia should be given independence. We can thank the Kosovo principle for allowing anyone who wants to be independent...............can do so.
On the other hand Bush calls for Russia to respect Georgian sovereignty (including S. Ossetia). How interesting. He never said "respect Serbia's sovereignty".
Georgia wants S.Ossetia. Bush agrees.
Serbia wanted Kosovo to remain...............the West disagreed, and killed 1,600 Serbs.
 
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MillwallSean
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:23 pm



Quoting L-188 (Reply 111):
So where are all the activists protesting the use of unguided bombs and missiles by the Soviets?

Events like this really show how differents the US method of using masses of PGM's vers the area bombing by the Russians.

I just wish the US would get credit for actually trying to reduce casulties in these blows ups.

Either you live under a rock or you havent heard the word Iraq...
10% of the population killed, 25% refugees...
The highest traces of readioactivity outside of Chernobyl and something in the region of 95% of bombs were non prescision.

Sudan, blowing up a warehouse belonging to a Swedish company when looking for some arab etc etc.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:31 pm



Quoting GDB (Reply 113):
For Russia, they might just also think that giving Georgia a clobbering sends a message to other states near them that they don't like.

Seems very likely, GDB.

But I wonder if Russia with that brutal knock down actually shot herself in the feet. During the later years the terror originating from the region has reduced a lot.

But there are a lot of people in the region, both inside and outside Russian borders, who don't like Russia. They don't get less desperate by this.

I am not going on a tourist visit to Moscow during the next six months. And should my company insist on sending me there, then I will find another job.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:31 pm



Quoting GDB (Reply 113):
Maybe he thought those troops of his stationed in Iraq meant this would be the case, despite the fact that Georgia is not a NATO member. And won't be while there is this serious a territorial dispute there.
Troops that would be more useful at home than in the Mid East right now.

MSNBC has just reported that today "The U.S. military began flying 2,000 Georgian troops home from Iraq after Georgia recalled them, even while calling for a truce." So it seems that, while the U.S. is seeking a resolution to the conflict through diplomatic channels, the Bush administration is showing its ongoing support of Georgia by transporting their Iraq forces back to Georgian territory.

Let's hope that Russia doesn't try to take out of U.S. transport planes while in transit to Georgia.
 
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MillwallSean
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:27 am

When we talk about this conflict and the parties affected we tend to not look at a few things that will be central to the ending of this small scale war.
Economy, oil and trade being some of them.

We are in an economical downturn.
The US market is dead and America is on firesale at the moment. Fortunately for European companies Asia, Russia and Eastern Europe is still doing great and companies are selling for record profits there offsetting the loss of the US market.
Now who wants to get into more trouble with Russia and possibly be denied access to its lucrative exportmarket?

My guess is that the only thing European countries will do in this situation is to talk loud and say stop the war. Its really only one country that has something serious to loose here and that is the UK. We will come to that later.
Behind the scenes there will be a different agenda. They will quietly work for a ceasefire and Russias conditions for this are clear. They want ie South Ossetia and Abkhazia out of Georgian influence once and for all.
The EU are now sending envoys to talk but they are not flying to Moscow where the shots are called. they are flying to Tblisi. Any guesses why?

Why does now Mr Saakashvili show up with EU flags and Georgian flags in his press-conferences?
His country is not part of the EU and isnt even in association talks. His major backer is the US and its close ally Poland. Non of those countries could by the best of means called the EU core.
Its nice that he loves the EU so much but his actions speaks louder than his words. Sending troops, against the UNs and most of the EU:s wishes, to Iraq wasn't so smart after all now was it.
Now an EU envoy, a seasoned politician sent from Paris and his delegation (The French are leading the EU this semester - ironic isnt it) is on his way to Tblisi to speak with Mr Saakashvili at a time when he has called a unilateral ceasefire!
No one is flying to Moscow right now...
Moscows message was heard loud and clear and little Georgia is about to be sacrificed in the name of oil and trade.
The US pulls a no show and the EU doesn't care. Poor Georgia stands alone facing the mighty bear. No fun at all.

Mr Saakashvili is a lad who took a gamble and thought he could make a sneak attack on an Autonomous region and get away with it due to the Russians being weak or perhaps Georgia receiving assistance from the US. His judgement has been proven wrong.

------------------------------

On to oil and the EU country that has something to loose from this - Britain. BP is the major shareholder of the pipeline going through Georgia. Its a very important pipeline.
Remember a James Bond movie called "The World is Not Enough" featuring an oilpipeline and a bomb?
That pipeline was the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline. A pipeline that sends Azeri oil to a Turkish port, Yumurtalik, where it is loaded on to tankers for delivery to Europe and the US.
This pipeline is important because it doesn't pass Iran or Russia.
One of the few that doesn't.
However 55 km of it passes through the Autonom region of South Ossetia.

It carries a little bit more than 1 per cent of the world's oil supply.
At the moment its halted due to an attack by Kurdish rebels who blow up the pipeline on the 6 th of August 2008.

Mr Saakashvili will probably find more fertile land for his screams for help from the British than from any other EU country and perhaps he should change his flags from Georgian/EU to something else because I believe he is about to be seriously disappointed by what the french envoy will have to say.
 
Cadet57
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:38 am



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 76):
Photos of Gori after Russian bombing.Tragic.   I am not taking either side. They are both evil.

It would have been nice if you put a disclaimer of them being VERY not safe for work  sarcastic 
 
dc863
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:27 am

Well someone most likely a US advisor let it be known to Saak that a Georgian offensive would work. Grab the capital and the rest of the country, then appeal for UN peacekeepers to seal his gains. The Russians are going to make a big lesson of Georgia...........a warning to others who toy with joining NATO so close to Russian territory.
 
baroque
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:13 am



Quoting GDB (Reply 113):
NAV20, whatever happened in 2003, the RN has had it's amphibious capability totally transformed since.

Interesting GDB, but I cannot help rephrase part of that to:
"Russia has had it's ambitious capability totally transformed since" by the rise in the price of oil, courtesy at least in part due to the Iraq invasion.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 119):
One of the few that doesn't.
However 55 km of it passes through the Autonom region of South Ossetia.

It carries a little bit more than 1 per cent of the world's oil supply.
At the moment its halted due to an attack by Kurdish rebels who blow up the pipeline on the 6 th of August 2008.

Thank you for that piece of information MillwallSean. Verrrry interesting. Did not know it knicked S Ossetia.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:19 am



Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 119):
Mr Saakashvili is a lad who took a gamble and thought he could make a sneak attack on an Autonomous region and get away with it due to the Russians being weak or perhaps Georgia receiving assistance from the US. His judgement has been proven wrong.

Or maybe not...

U.S. Vice-President Dick Cheney "told President Saakashvili that Russian aggression must not go unanswered, and that its continuation would have serious consequences for its relations with the United States, as well as the broader international community,"

Source: http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/10/us.russia.georgia/index.html
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:08 am

What Russian aggression? The "aggressor" wasn't Russia. It was the Georgian forces.
Ugly Cheney is turning the truth around.

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 123):
U.S. Vice-President Dick Cheney "told President Saakashvili that Russian aggression must not go unanswered

Georgia launches attack on rebel region
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jYiEYd_roDGOs5KuDVRoapNY-pTw

TBILISI (AFP) — Violent clashes were underway Friday in South Ossetia as Georgian forces launched an attack to retake control of the breakaway region, officials said.
 
PPVRA
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:14 am

"Plucky little Georgia? No, the cold war reading won't wash
It is crudely simplistic to cast Russia as the sole villain in the clashes over South Ossetia. The west would be wise to stay out"

. . .

"Unlike in eastern Europe, for instance, today in breakaway states such as South Ossetia or Abkhazia, Russian troops are popular. Vladimir Putin's picture is more widely displayed than that of the South Ossetian president, the former Soviet wrestling champion Eduard Kokoity. The Russians are seen as protectors against a repeat of ethnic cleansing by Georgians."

"In 1992, the west backed Eduard Shevardnadze's attempts to reassert Georgia's control over these regions. The then Georgian president's war was a disaster for his nation. It left 300,000 or more refugees "cleansed" by the rebel regions, but for Ossetians and Abkhazians the brutal plundering of the Georgian troops is the most indelible memory."

. . .

"Given its extraordinary ethnic complexity, Georgia is a post-Soviet Union in miniature. If westerners readily conceded non-Russian republics' right to secede from the USSR in 1991, what is the logic of insisting that non-Georgians must remain inside a microempire which happens to be pro-western?"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/09/georgia.russia1
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:17 am



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 123):
Or maybe not...



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 124):
What Russian aggression? The "aggressor" wasn't Russia. It was the Georgian forces.
Ugly Cheney is turning the truth around.

Madame... Some people just don't get it. And never will. Honestly on a place like A.Net it's not worth it to try and convinced them. Most are stubborn, and are not willing to learn.

I thank God people like you still exist on these forums!

Aeroflot777
 
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mariner
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:25 am



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 123):
U.S. Vice-President Dick Cheney "told President Saakashvili that Russian aggression must not go unanswered, and that its continuation would have serious consequences for its relations with the United States, as well as the broader international community,"

William Kristol is at it, too, in an op-ed in the NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/11/opinion/11kristol.html?ref=opinion

NYT/Kristol: "Will Russia Get Away With It?

But Georgia, a nation of about 4.6 million, has had the third-largest military presence — about 2,000 troops — fighting along with U.S. soldiers and marines in Iraq. For this reason alone, we owe Georgia a serious effort to defend its sovereignty. Surely we cannot simply stand by as an autocratic aggressor gobbles up part of — and perhaps destabilizes all of — a friendly democratic nation that we were sponsoring for NATO membership a few months ago."


I guess if he can't have a war in Iran, he'll settle for one in Georgia.

mariner
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:11 am

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 123):
U.S. Vice-President Dick Cheney "told President Saakashvili that Russian aggression must not go unanswered

09.08.2008
The international community collectively held their breath waiting for the reaction of Russia after the savage, brutal, criminal attack by Georgia on South Ossetia. After having offered a cease fire in hostilities, the back stabbing Georgians immediately violated the cease fire, invading South Ossetia and causing massive destruction and death among innocent civilians, among peacekeepers and also destroying a hospital.

At approximately 11:30 p.m. Moscow time Georgians opened fire with heavy artillery from the side of the Georgian villages of Ergneti and Nikozi against the city of Tskhinval, the Defense Ministry of South Ossetia announced on Thursday.

http://english.pravda.ru/russia/poli.../09-08-2008/106049-russiasaviour-0

I find of particular interest how they accurately point out that the western news agencies are all reporting on this ass-backwards and that this sort of dis-info is the normal occurrence.

[Edited 2008-08-11 01:13:27]
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:55 am

I have yet to see a map of the area posted in any of the caucasus war threads.
Georgia and Iran are next door neighbors... so to say.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/sw_asia_pol96.jpg

Click on map to enlarge.
 
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MillwallSean
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:20 am



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 129):
I have yet to see a map of the area posted in any of the caucasus war threads.
Georgia and Iran are next door neighbors... so to say.

I have yet to see weapons of massdestruction in Iraq...
Truths has nothing to do with American politics or journalists my friend.
Watch FoxNews, a channel proud of being partial and twisting the truth.

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 123):
Or maybe not...

With a military that cant handle a war against Iraq and are on the defensive in Afghanistan I dont think the Russians are to worried about what Cheeney says. His trackrecord doesnt suggest that he should be taken to seriously...
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:46 am

Last update - 00:46 11/08/2008
Jewish Georgian minister: Thanks to Israeli training, we're fending off Russia
By Haaretz Service

Jewish Georgian Minister Temur Yakobshvili on Sunday praised the Israel Defense Forces for its role in training Georgian troops and said Israel should be proud of its military might, in an interview with Army Radio.

"Israel should be proud of its military which trained Georgian soldiers," Yakobashvili told Army Radio in Hebrew, referring to a private Israeli group Georgia had hired.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1010187.html

 faint 
 
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MillwallSean
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:55 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 122):
Thank you for that piece of information MillwallSean. Verrrry interesting. Did not know it knicked S Ossetia.

After having checked the maps at work neither am I.
According to my maps at work its situated 55km from South Ossetia.
I took the original piece of information from the local newsmedia and right now it seems like its not accurate.
Will double-check but The timesonline the media where the information was quoted from has changed its article to state 55 km from South Ossetia instead of 55 km inside...
My assumption is that my information given above was wrong and that the correct info should be that the pipeline runs 55 km from South ossetias border.

Note to myself, always doublecheck information taken from media. espescially Murdochowned media.
 
Scotty
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:00 am

Interesting that the Russians claim to have been attacked by four Georgian patrol boats.

In all of the world's navies websites, I cant find any mention of any naval vessel operated by Georgia
 
Beaucaire
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:19 am

 
L410Turbolet
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:36 am



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 128):
find of particular interest

I find of particular interest the headline of the article... Russia: Again Savior of Peace and Life  crazy   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
Well, if "Pravda" says so then it must be True... there's no other way.  Yeah sure I guess someone forgot to explain comrade Karpova the difference between news article and op-ed.
If you think the Russian state-controlled media are a source of reliable, non-biased info I have a bridge to sell you.
 
Scotty
Posts: 1846
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 1999 10:51 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:44 am



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 134):
look under Navy..

Thanks. scratch one from that little lot then
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:07 pm



Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 135):
Well, if "Pravda" says so then it must be True... there's no other way. Yeah sure I guess someone forgot to explain comrade Karpova the difference between news article and op-ed.
If you think the Russian state-controlled media are a source of reliable, non-biased info I have a bridge to sell you.

I've rarely read a more blue-eyed post ..
Because it's Russian news it's automatically false and fake,and because it's Western news it's genuin and true and formidable !!!
All major intelligence agencies have de-information departments -East and West alike - and I'm inclined to say the ones in the West do a great job by selling news that are "worked" not to a lesser extent than news from Russia or China..
If you compare the "speres of influence" controlled by either Moscow or Washington throughout the last thirty years,you will find a great shift onto the "Hamburger way of life " sphere..
So the West seems to be more appealing to many Africans,Asians or Central-Europeans -not to much though in South America...
Is that maybe because they have expericnced the fall-out from Washington good news and their political influnece on their politicians??
I'm sure the Chilians have some great stories to tell ...
 
sv7887
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:34 pm



Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 130):
Truths has nothing to do with American politics or journalists my friend.
Watch FoxNews, a channel proud of being partial and twisting the truth.

Since when is Truth part of any politicians or journalists aims these days? I don't care what country it is, politicians will do whatever it takes to get power, and journalists will fabricate whatever necessary to maintain their ratings.

Go look at the coverage of the Second Lebanon War where the Associated Press printed doctored photos of an alleged Israeli airstrike on a civilian target.

The same thing is going on here. In the West anything Russian is automatically bad.

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 123):
U.S. Vice-President Dick Cheney "told President Saakashvili that Russian aggression must not go unanswered, and that its continuation would have serious consequences for its relations with the United States, as well as the broader international community,"

Pure handwaving on his part. The US military wants no part of a fight with Russia. If they are worried about Iran, imagine how much more pain even a diminished Russian military would wreak on the US

It's not politically expedient for the US or the EU to get into this one. Every nation works in their self interest and its not in the US or EU's interest to get involved in a fight that the Georgians were dumb enough to start.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:35 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 137):
Because it's Russian news it's automatically false and fake,and because it's Western news it's genuin and true and formidable !!!

Thanks for missing the point completely. The point was that left-wing rags always choose their names with such loaded words such as "Pravda", "Guardian" and so on as opposed to right-leaning Chronicles', Telegraphs, Times' and Posts and the fact that the article is more op-ed than a news report.
And the the title... considering what USSR/Russia stands for it couldn't be possibly more ironic.


Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 137):
If you compare the "speres of influence" controlled by either Moscow or Washington throughout the last thirty years,you will find a great shift onto the "Hamburger way of life " sphere..

Makes you wonder, doesn't it? Considering what a wondeful worker's paradise it was behind the Iron Curtain for the 50 years of Russian looting and occupation.
Maybe you should ask your parents (although I'm afraid to ask what they've been doing pre-1989)...
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:50 pm

Petraeus: US is Flying Georgian Troops into Battle Zone

Exclusive: Deborah Haynes, Baghdad
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article4498032.ece

10/08/08 "The Times"---- - 'US aircraft have started to fly some of Georgia’s 2,000 troops in Iraq back home to join the fight in the breakaway province of South Ossetia, General David Petraeus, the top US commander in Iraq said toda

“The flights are ongoing to redeploy the elements of the Georgian contingent so that they can deal with the security issues in their country,” General Petraeus told The Times in an interview at his office inside Baghdad’s Green Zone.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:50 pm



Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 132):
Note to myself, always doublecheck information taken from media. especially Murdochowned media.

Oh yes! At least you have now got me off my LFA to try to check. First discovery is that you can apparently write a 67 page document about the impact of the pipeline on this that and the other community without a map to show where it goes, so perhaps the Dirty D is not alone in his "difficulties".

http://www.inogate.org/en/images/maps/gas_map_big.gif

Suggests that the Baku line does not touch S Ossetia.
Azerbaijan - Georgia - Turkey gas pipeline
This pipeline (also referred to as the "BTE pipeline") will go through the Caucasus region westwards from Azerbaijan to Tbilisi, and then southwards to the Turkish town of Erzurum, where it will be connected to the Turkish gas pipeline system. The BTE pipeline will exploit the natural gas from the giant offshore Azeri field of Shah Deniz, which has proven reserves of 460 billion cubic metres. With a full capacity of around 8 billion cubic meteres per year, to be achieved in 2009, the BTE could start piping gas to Turkey as early as 2006, depending both on the development of the Azeri field and on the completion of the pipeline.

But that is a gas line.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...le&code=CHO20060726&articleId=2824
Suggests a similar route for the oil line. Also shows that Israel has a direct interest in Azeri oil.
The War on Lebanon and the Battle for Oil

Overall, hope you did better than I Millwall, between sites with no map, sites with maps that are "404" and maps with 1000km wide pixels - sheesh. Maybe there IS something to hide here.

From what one can see, both gas and oil pipelines go from Baku W to within a few km of Tbilisi and then turn S. So touching S Ossetia is probably not likely.

I wonder when Nagorno Karabakh will flare up!
 
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OA260
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:22 pm



Quoting JoKeR (Reply 90):
If we perhaps kissed US behind we could have kept Kosovo... but we did not do that - the Albanians did.

 checkmark   checkmark  Yep , shame people dont realise that. Lick Americas butt and they will protect you. Let your country house US Air bases and your laughing.
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:15 pm

it seems the US might consider to help Georgia militarily..

from an article in "Fokus Magazine"

"...USA schließen militärische Hilfe nicht aus

Der stellvertretende Nationale US-Sicherheitsberater James Jeffrey wollte einem Bericht der „Washington Post“ zufolge nicht ausschließen, dass die USA Georgien auch militärisch zu Hilfe kommen...."

Now that's all we need- draw Nato into the conflict and broaden it internationally..!
What a good democrat Saakashvili is ..that's what you learn in Freedomhouse ???
 
sv7887
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 7:31 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:17 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 143):
it seems the US might consider to help Georgia militarily..

from an article in "Fokus Magazine"

God I hope not..I don't think the US wants a piece of this action other than background intelligence and logistics support.

If the US does get involved, I do see a battery of S-300 air defenses getting sent to Iran ASAP along with the latest in Comrade Putin's weaponry to make life hell for the USA.
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9265
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:21 pm

Putin blasts USA for Georgian troops airlift as ceasefire talks continue
Aug 11 2008 By DailyRecord.co.uk

Putin blasted the US for getting involved by airlifting troops back Georgia from Iraq, after the Americans began flying 2000 Georgian troops back home from the Middle East.

"It's a pity that some of our partners, instead of helping, are in fact trying to get in the way," he told a cabinet meeting.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk...ire-talks-continue-86908-20693470/
 
JoKeR
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:35 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 142):
Yep , shame people dont realise that. Lick Americas butt and they will protect you. Let your country house US Air bases and your laughing.

In all honesty, the US has very little "muscle" on its side to persuade Russia to halt its operations in Georgia. Afterall, it is the US that ruthlessly broke international law and disrespected the sovereignty of an internationally recognized state and its borders, when they chose to recognize the "Republic of Kosovo".

It has backfired now, smack in the centre. They pushed everyone to recognize an Albanian state on Serbian soil - what is Russia doing differently? Just following the example that Mr Bush and Ms Rice have set on the world stage.

The sad thing is that Pandora's box has barely been opened. Similar conflicts are simmering all over the globe.
 
Scotty
Posts: 1846
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RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:45 pm

This is Russia saying "you have thumbed your noses at us long enough and you all need a little reminding of what we can do"

The west laughed and joked at Yeltsin's Russia for years and never took it seriously even when Putin arrived. Now Russia is saying "Yo Bush - we think you should listen to our views on life the universe and everything - starting today"

This is not a world with a single superpower - it is a monopolar world in which the percentage influence of the west is far less than it used to be. Better get used to it.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:52 pm



Quoting Scotty (Reply 147):
"Yo Bush - we think you should listen to our views on life the universe and everything - starting today"

 rotfl   rotfl  Blair is no longer there for him to say it to is he. Does he get to say it 42 times?
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9265
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:31 pm

Look at French envoy Kouchner on the picture. Scary.

http://www.rferl.org/content/Russia_..._Ossetia_Winding_Down/1190082.html
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