Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:41 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 249):
Did anyone hear about the fifty bombs dropped on the pipeline .... evidently the Russian Airforce could not hit it.. I dont believe it myself.

The pipelines might not be that easy to hit. I had a look on Google and the difficulty of finding them suggests they are probably buried which would make hitting them more difficult. Then again, Google does not tell you the date on their pics!

If they really wanted to break one, surely they would just have sent a tank column down from Gori - mind you I still cannot find a half decent map of the damned things - wonder why!!!
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:29 pm

Here's a blast from the past - Gorbachev weighs in:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/gor...nder/2008/08/12/1218306832712.html

SMH: "Gorbachev said "it was still possible to find a political solution" to the conflict."

Sending a message from the Kremlin, perhaps?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 242):
If Marx' concepts had not been around Lenin, Stalin and Mao would have latched on to some other 'ism and gone happily on their muderous ways, that had nothing to do with Marx.

Sure they would. A lot of the communes - the Shakers, for example - used the Bible as their rationale, long before Marx.

Megalomaniacs will always find justifications for what they do.

mariner

[Edited 2008-08-13 12:52:43]
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6339
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:48 pm



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 237):
Russian tanks are leaving Gori and heading for Tbilisi ... so it looks like Stalin is alive and well in Russia

Oh, the irony of that... Stalin was born in Gori so I guess the Russian troops just dropped by to pay tribute to their role model leader.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LB703445.htm

"Together with the bombs falling on Georgian cities...the hope for a normal neighbour in the east has been ruined," Poland's Dziennik newspaper said in a commentary.
"Those who have warned that Russia is an unpredictable partner were proven right. (Russia is) driven by neo-imperial ambitions and unable to treat neighbours, especially those who had been in its sphere of influence, as partners," it said.
...
Many central Europeans and analysts rejected Moscow's argument that it was seeking to restore peace.
Russia had been waiting for a pretext to invade in a pattern similar to Soviet interventions aimed at maintaining Moscow's grip on central Europe after World War Two, they said.
"It's basically the Putin doctrine," said Svante Cornell of the Institute for Security and Development Policy in Stockholm.
"Restoring Russian control over the former Soviet Union, irrespective of what those countries want, which is why this is so reminiscent of the episodes in Prague in 1968 and Budapest in 1956."


Unfortunately failure of the "Old Europe" once again to see the obvious is disappointing although not really surprising. No lessons learned from 1938? Too busy being obsessed with irrelevant Bush?
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:52 pm



Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 95):
You do not attack a NATO nation, bombing US personel without getting a response from the US. If you think otherwise, you're more insane than Georgia's president thinking he could get away with bombing Russian peacekeepers!

Mind you, if it would be depending on GWB, Georgia would already have been a NATO member today!

Luckily the (old) Europeans have delayed their accession to the organisation on the basis the Caucasus country still has some international territorial problems to solve first, notably the one which caused this open conflict with the Russian Federation.

Besides, the exceptionally strong bilateral Georgian-US alliance didn't stop the Russian Army to strike back right after the Georgians felt - with full support from the US- it was time to bring the separatist regions back under control by military force, something which -I repeat- was done to 'solve' the territorial problems of Georgia and thus content the Europeans into accepting Georgia as NATO member.

I'd say that is as good as attacking a NATO member already to me.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 95):
I hope you learned a lesson right now.

The lesson learned from this is that ALL neighbouring countries of the Russian Federation may have the best possible relations with Washington, but that in the end the USA won't risk stopping the Russians if they feel they need to go in...

American talk in the former East is omni-present and obviously very cheap, military action however is totally non-existent: that's the sole lesson the world has to draw from this conflict!

Let's have a look at the parties in this conflict and what they won/lost in it:

Georgia: thought that with US backing, they could quickly bring back under control their separatist regions, thus opening the gate to NATO membership, yet this idea showed to be extremely naive and the country was severely punished by the Russian Army for their attack, has suffered great economic and infrastructural damage as a consequence and has now more than probably lost control over the separatist provinces forever, since after the traumatising short but violent war, the inhabitants will rightfully want some kind of international rule over their territories for the long term. Such a form of international government often is a way to full autonomy, something the nationalists in Georgia will obviously strongly oppose! As such Georgia has not only lost 2 provinces, but most likely also the outlook to imminent NATO membership, because after last week's events, the old Europeans are even less likely to allow Georgia into NATO without having sorted out their territorial disputes first!

USA: Despite its high talk, it has completely lost its credibility in much of Eastern Europe, as it has shown to the world that despite all the nice words in support of the pro-America movements in those former Soviet countries, they can't do anything to stop the Russian Federation if they feel they need to go in.

Russian Federation: has demonstrated its military supremacy in the region, has restored the situation in Georgia to what is was before, thus locking Georgia out of NATO for the long run and has sent a chilling signal to the world that it is the ONLY power to be reckoned with in the former USSR whereas the USA can do little more than offer money for relief aid.

I'd say it is pretty obvious who's the winner and who're the losers...

If I were to live in Eastern Europe, I'd not be feeling at ease any longer with my government constantly frocking up to the USA and missing no chance at all to irritate the Russian Federation for no obvious reason other than to take childish revenge for what happened 60 years ago when those countries came under Soviet influence...

Maybe it is time for the leaders of Eastern Europe to take a more mature and pragmatic approach to dealing with the Russian Federation, similar to the way old Europe has been doing it for long, rather than the dogmatic anti Russian approach of constantly trying to bully their large neighbour, stirred up by their new mentors from across the Atlantic who in the end have a different agenda.

America's agenda is NOT to stand by their new allies no matter what just because they happen to like them so much, but rather just to win them over and as such weaken Russia.
If however the Russian Federation is seen as acting strongly against such a policy, the Americans just back off and the small ally is left entirely on its own and if it happened to stick out its neck a bit too far... it will even be allowed to loose it's head.
 
User avatar
stasisLAX
Posts: 2969
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:04 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:39 pm



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 253):
I'd say it is pretty obvious who's the winner and who're the losers...

Comrade Putin wins this battle, but ushers in the 21st century Cold War - a war that will be fought over Europe's energy resources. Hope it was worth the effort, destruction, and bloodshed that Vlad the Impaler is causing.

I would fully expect the Russians to begin proxy wars using other separatists movements as well, starting with Ukraine and then in the former Central Asian Soviet Republics.

The Russian military woke up for its 20 year hibernation, and it's got enough strength to return to its old hunting grounds. Georgia is only neo-Stalinist Putin's very first excursion. Remember Putin's remark that the dissolution of the Soviet Union was the greatest calamity of the 20th century - he meant it. Now he's now trying to put the "band" back together and is going out on "tour". His first show on the band's comeback tour will be held in Tbilisi...
 
User avatar
stasisLAX
Posts: 2969
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:04 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:56 am



Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 252):
Unfortunately failure of the "Old Europe" once again to see the obvious is disappointing although not really surprising. No lessons learned from 1938? Too busy being obsessed with irrelevant Bush?

In an Associated Press article, British Foreign Secretary David Miliband's stated that "the Georgia crisis showed Russia could not accept that the Soviet era was over."

Miliband earlier told BBC radio that "the sight of Russian tanks rolling into parts of a sovereign country on its neighboring borders will have brought a chill down the spine of many people."

"It is not in Russia's interests to continue to hanker for a Soviet past because, frankly, it's gone and it's good that it's gone," Miliband said.

Source: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080813/D92HLR6O0.html

I think that's a strong and clear statement of condemnation from the British government.
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:21 am



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 253):
Mind you, if it would be depending on GWB, Georgia would already have been a NATO member today!

Luckily the (old) Europeans have delayed their accession to the organisation on the basis the Caucasus country still has some international territorial problems to solve first, notably the one which caused this open conflict with the Russian Federation.

Besides, the exceptionally strong bilateral Georgian-US alliance didn't stop the Russian Army to strike back right after the Georgians felt - with full support from the US- it was time to bring the separatist regions back under control by military force, something which -I repeat- was done to 'solve' the territorial problems of Georgia and thus content the Europeans into accepting Georgia as NATO member.

I'd say that is as good as attacking a NATO member already to me.

Georgia is not a NATO nation, bilateral agreements or not. And Saakashvili was warned not to use force to bring South Ossetia in line. Poland only has or will have some interceptor missile bases, is not going to be sending troops over to Kaliningrad, and is covered by Article 5. BIG differences that you seem blatantly unwilling to see for the sake of supporting your wet dream of "mother Russia" ruling the world. There are no current territorial disputes in Central and Eastern Europe (minus whatever Putin makes up), and these countries are full on formal NATO members.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 253):
The lesson learned from this is that ALL neighbouring countries of the Russian Federation may have the best possible relations with Washington, but that in the end the USA won't risk stopping the Russians if they feel they need to go in...

American talk in the former East is omni-present and obviously very cheap, military action however is totally non-existent: that's the sole lesson the world has to draw from this conflict!

Wrong, Georgia shot first. If Putin bombs those interceptor missile bases, then he's shooting first, and actually stepping on NATO's toes.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 253):
Let's have a look at the parties in this conflict and what they won/lost in it:

Georgia: thought that with US backing, they could quickly bring back under control their separatist regions, thus opening the gate to NATO membership, yet this idea showed to be extremely naive and the country was severely punished by the Russian Army for their attack, has suffered great economic and infrastructural damage as a consequence and has now more than probably lost control over the separatist provinces forever, since after the traumatising short but violent war, the inhabitants will rightfully want some kind of international rule over their territories for the long term. Such a form of international government often is a way to full autonomy, something the nationalists in Georgia will obviously strongly oppose! As such Georgia has not only lost 2 provinces, but most likely also the outlook to imminent NATO membership, because after last week's events, the old Europeans are even less likely to allow Georgia into NATO without having sorted out their territorial disputes first!

Georgia played with fire and got burned. That NATO overall rejected them is a good thing. Had Georgia been in NATO formally, for one Putin would have been more restrained, and another, Saakashvili would be on his own as he pulled the trigger first. You on the other hand suggest that Putin can willfully strike first and *should* get away with it.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 253):
USA: Despite its high talk, it has completely lost its credibility in much of Eastern Europe, as it has shown to the world that despite all the nice words in support of the pro-America movements in those former Soviet countries, they can't do anything to stop the Russian Federation if they feel they need to go in.

Bullshit. Russia beat up on a small nation with barely any military. The US is the only remaining Superpower for a reason.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 253):
Russian Federation: has demonstrated its military supremacy in the region, has restored the situation in Georgia to what is was before, thus locking Georgia out of NATO for the long run and has sent a chilling signal to the world that it is the ONLY power to be reckoned with in the former USSR whereas the USA can do little more than offer money for relief aid.

Hilarious, you have such a hard on for Putin. But I've got news for you. Don't confuse basic restraint and a respect for the ideals of not leaping into WW3 as a sign of weakness. In the end Russia only demonstrated that it seeks to return to the days of the USSR where it will bully smaller nations in the name of willy waving, and the US and the EU will begin preparations to counter the renewed threat.

If you really think the US will just allow some nation to walk all over it, then I personally challenge you to try to attack a US installation.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 253):
If I were to live in Eastern Europe, I'd not be feeling at ease any longer with my government constantly frocking up to the USA and missing no chance at all to irritate the Russian Federation for no obvious reason other than to take childish revenge for what happened 60 years ago when those countries came under Soviet influence...

But you're NOT in Eastern Europe. You sat on your ass in comfort protected by American missiles while Poland, etc suffered. As long as it did not inconvenience your own selfish ass in a personal manner, you didn't care. These nations did not seek NATO membership as "childish" (a word you chose only to show your support for Russia and blatant Anti-US sentiment here) reasons but rather for what have now been confirmed as legitimate reasons. If you're dumb enough to believe Russia wanted to play nice and that the Cold War actually ended, then I pity you. Eastern Europe could see it coming and I'd say your're a little resentful that folks like L410Turbolet are now in a position to say, "I told you so." BTW, it was 20 years ago, not 60 that what Russia had been doing to these nations finally ended!

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 253):
Maybe it is time for the leaders of Eastern Europe to take a more mature and pragmatic approach to dealing with the Russian Federation, similar to the way old Europe has been doing it for long, rather than the dogmatic anti Russian approach of constantly trying to bully their large neighbour, stirred up by their new mentors from across the Atlantic who in the end have a different agenda.

LOL! This shows how utterly CLUELESS you are about the matter. How could these nations could "bully" Russia by their own self determination? EU membership, NATO membership, all things that they are allowed to do. You fell hook, line, and sinker for Putin's propaganda about Russia being a victim. Pathetic. If anything Georgia should have taught you that Russia is nothing but a belligerant. They were forced to withdraw their illegally placed occupation forces and then watch as their economies grew and their standards of living rose. Russia meanwhile became bitter and vowed revenge, bullying Eastern Europe whenever those nations exercised their own PEACEFUL freedoms, trying to violate their sovreignty at every turn. Poland was threatened over NATO membership, even threatened over EU membership. Now how does EU membership "bully" Russia? That Poland now has friends sticking up for them? That's bullying. My, my, you must have been "picked on" a lot growing up then eh? Turbolet was right...useful idiots are still out there...and boy are you guys bereft of reality.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 253):
America's agenda is NOT to stand by their new allies no matter what just because they happen to like them so much, but rather just to win them over and as such weaken Russia.
If however the Russian Federation is seen as acting strongly against such a policy, the Americans just back off and the small ally is left entirely on its own and if it happened to stick out its neck a bit too far... it will even be allowed to loose it's head.

And you gained this "insight" by watching Russia pound on a small country that made the error of firing the first shot. Riiiiight. Attack US installations in full fledged NATO members, and you'll see a lot more than C-17s bringing humanitarian assistance and calls for a cease fire. Thank God you're not Russia's President. You're more insane than Saakashvili! Puppet-master Putin certainly has advantages in grey matter over you! Everything you said there is the exact type of gross underestimation that got Georgia in trouble in the first place...food for thought, Tovarich.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
JoKeR
Posts: 1851
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:34 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:50 am

And the beat goes on... from CNN

Russia pressed the United States on Wednesday to choose between "a real partnership" with Moscow or an "illusory" relationship with U.S. ally Georgia. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said the United States is standing by Georgia.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/13/us.russia.diplomacy/index.html
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:15 am



Quoting JoKeR (Reply 257):
And the beat goes on.

And on... here's some background I didn't know:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...rooks14-2008aug14,0,4988958.column

"So where did the Georgians get the silly idea that the U.S. would bail them out?

Maybe from John McCain, Republican heir apparent, whose top foreign policy advisor, Randy Scheunemann, also just happens to be a highly paid lobbyist for the Georgian government. Whoops -- correction! Scheunemann usedto be a highly paid lobbyist for Georgia. The McCain campaign says Scheunemann hasn't taken a dime from the Georgians since May 15. (Which is lucky for the Georgians, who are going to need all the spare cash they can get to rebuild all the stuff the Russians just bombed.)

According to the Washington Post, the relationship between Scheunemann and Georgia used to be very cozy (not to mention lucrative for Scheunemann). Between Jan. 1, 2007, and May 15, 2008, while Scheunemann was also a paid McCain advisor, "Georgia paid his firm $290,000 in lobbying fees."


mariner
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:28 am



Quoting Mariner (Reply 258):
Maybe from John McCain, Republican heir apparent, whose top foreign policy advisor, Randy Scheunemann, also just happens to be a highly paid lobbyist for the Georgian government. Whoops -- correction! Scheunemann usedto be a highly paid lobbyist for Georgia.

Oops. Now that looks like a statemanlike bit of foreign policy.

Somewhere I suggested that a full reading of the correspondence (and phone call) between Washington and Tbilisi would be needed before coming to a conclusion.

Pending that, there does appear to be some sort of a case that some party or parties in the US gave Georgia unrealistic expectation.

I wonder what the Kremlin had told the US. I cannot imagine they encouraged Georgian activism.

How does Russia play its foreign relations these days. Now that Gromyko is not around!!
 
sv7887
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 7:31 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:30 am



Quoting Mariner (Reply 258):
"So where did the Georgians get the silly idea that the U.S. would bail them out?

Maybe from John McCain, Republican heir apparent

Shameless slandering of McCain...

Who is the President of the United States right now?

Hint: It isn't McCain...

I don't know what that reporter is smoking, but McCain can't do jack considering he's not President let alone even leading in the polls right now.

The Georgians believed what they wanted to believe. Blaming America for something is so typical it is just laughable.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:42 am



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 260):
Shameless slandering of McCain...

Who is the President of the United States right now?

If it is true, I am not sure it is slander. And there is another thread as to how this present Georgian crisis may affect the US election results.

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 260):
The Georgians believed what they wanted to believe.

I am sure that is true. I'm in agreement with the Israeli writer who called the countries of the Caucasas "Borat-land".

"Shaakasvilli: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Georgia."

It is an exaggeration, but it is pretty much how he is behaving.

mariner
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11532
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:07 am

What exactly do people here think the USA could have done in this situation? We have few assets in the area, I don't believe we have anything staged in Georgia ready for action.

So what should the USA have done? Start bombing Russian forces from the air? The only way the USA could have done something is if it were set up like it is in Europe, with bases and forces on the ground able to defend against ground actions.

But the USA wasn't there, we had to wait for the situation to play out and support them afterward. What will Russia do if Georgia invite the USA to set up bases within its borders (whether the USA would accept that invitation is another matter)?

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 257):
Russia pressed the United States on Wednesday to choose between "a real partnership" with Moscow or an "illusory" relationship with U.S. ally Georgia. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said the United States is standing by Georgia.

See this is where USA's current administration really falls down with international politics. In this situation (which I agree, the statement by Russia is an outrageous and silly thing to throw out right now. My guess is they were looking set up a "you're either with us, or you are against" situation that they can use later) the USA should have said some thing like: "We choose to both have a real relationship with our valuable international partner Russia and are committed to supporting the Georgian people in this dire situation and can not abandon the democratically elected government's calls for assistance"

Tugg

[Edited 2008-08-13 23:27:50]
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:35 am



Quoting Tugger (Reply 262):
What exactly do people here think the USA could have done in this situation?

There's one thing I would like to see - or to have seen: some statement, from someone, the US, Europe, somewhere, about the people of South Ossetia, and their desire for independence.

I think there are problems with the many mini nation states, in the Pacific, the Caribbean and the Balkans, because most of them are not economically viable and depend on foreign aid. Put North and South Ossetia together and all you've got is a large postage stamp.

But if a people want independence - then why not? The Ossetes have fought hard to rule themselves, yet so far, to me, they seem forgotten in all of this.

mariner
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:55 am



Quoting JoKeR (Reply 32):
If Kosovo could gain "independence" so too should South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Isn't it ironic that the first consequence of the whole debacle is precisely against a country so backed by the U.S. and Europe? Not that it will be the last anyway - Pandora's box has just been opened.

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 67):
I just hope we are not going to sit back and watch the Russian's pound the crap out of Georgia.

Well, we just sat around and saw NATO pound the crap out of Serbia. That was hardly a fair fight either...

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 80):
Thousands of Georgian people take to the streets building a peace chain in the center of the capitol Tbilisi.

Perhaps they should take to the streets of Tbilissi but to start digging a few panzer traps. Who knows, might just come in handy.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 94):
a Tu-22M3.

Wow, they lost one of those? How the hell were they using it to expose a big boy like that to (what I presume is) ground fire? Or are the Georgians really able to shoot down aircraft in air-to-air combat?

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 96):
Comparing Ossetia with Kosovo is a joke by the way,

I know. The population of Ossetia has been ethnically Russian (or at least non-Georgian) for a long time, not recent immigrants like the Albanians in Kosovo. Apart from that, the main economic activities of the areas (trafficking of drugs, women and weapons) seem to be the same.

Quoting Dc863 (Reply 115):
Serbia wanted Kosovo to remain...............the West disagreed, and killed 1,600 Serbs.

Not to mention bombing the country back into the middle ages. Some of the "military targets" they chose were nothing but means of shallow revenge to bomb the country into submission - bridges, power plants, water treatment plants, etc.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 157):
B) If Russia crosses the borders between the two territories in question and Georgia Mainland it in fact DOES become a "Russian aggression" .

I agree, but wasn't it NATO that wanted to station a few troops in downtown Belgrade after the Kosovo war just for "peacekeeping"?

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 163):
France produces nearly twice as much GDP as Russia with one-half the population

Too late for me to be bothered to check GDP numbers but I am pretty sure Russia has more than double the population of France.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 193):
Quoting OA260 (Reply 165):
Thank god France vetoed Georgia's entry into NATO.

Here's another idea... maybe the French should just quit their (non-)membership in the Alliance completely.

France was not the only country opposed to the membership of Georgia. But perhaps countries like Portugal should leave for such (landlocked) "North Atlantic" powerhouses such as the Czech Republic to pull the strings.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 202):
A Portuguese EEC president who ain't capable to impose anything of importance abroad,

He's not even to impose anything of importance at home!

Quoting Acheron (Reply 217):
Non-PC article about the conflict.

I love Gary Brecher, the fog of war just seems to be so thick at this moment that I think I will wait for the War Nerd's assessment of this situation to make an opinion on this conflict. He is usually spot on!
 
User avatar
stasisLAX
Posts: 2969
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:04 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:10 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 263):
But if a people want independence - then why not? The Ossetes have fought hard to rule themselves, yet so far, to me, they seem forgotten in all of this.

And what about their brothers and sisters in North Ossetia, which is still a part of Russia? Do they get the right to self-determination and combine with their South Ossetian patriots? Putin would never in a million years allow the North Ossetians to combine with South Ossetia as one sovereign and independent country.

[Edited 2008-08-14 00:13:07]
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2001 5:34 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:13 am



Quoting OlegShv (Reply 56):
Chechnya was independent since 1996. Not a single Russian soldier was present there. I'll let you go and study this issue yourself.

So your definition of independence is absense of soldiers? I think you need to study the issue from a moral perpective instead of your Russian background. Did Russia ever recognise Chechnya? You know the answer, but if it defacto did, then you have to admit Russia annexed Chechnya again. And don't give me the Chechen terrorist activities crap, we all know what happened in Ryazan and we all know what Russia did in Chechnya and that it continues to this day.

The parallels b/w the two are striking and there is no way either party (Georgia, the West or Russia) can justify claim moral ground when you look at Abkhazia, North Ossetia, Georgia itself, Russia and Chechnya. Only innocents have and are going to suffer.
 
Acheron
Posts: 1852
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:13 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 264):
Wow, they lost one of those? How the hell were they using it to expose a big boy like that to (what I presume is) ground fire? Or are the Georgians really able to shoot down aircraft in air-to-air combat?

Georgians have a few Tors, S-125 and Buk-M and assorted MANPADS, so they had the means.

As for air-to-air combat, the only planes they had were Su-25 and most of the got shot down by now. Lost 4 out of 7 or something like that.

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 265):
And what about their brothers and sisters in North Ossetia, which is still a part of Russia? Do they get the right to self-determination and combine with their South Ossetian patriots? P

Uhm, South Ossetians wanted to be part of Russia, and I haven't read about wishes of independence from North Ossetians, so I think your point is a bit moot.

[Edited 2008-08-14 00:17:24]

[Edited 2008-08-14 00:19:50]
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6339
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:21 am



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 264):
But perhaps countries like Portugal should leave for such (landlocked) "North Atlantic" powerhouses such as the Czech Republic to pull the strings.

Of course not. But is letting the notoriously  white  , who opted out of the military structure in the first place, call the shots any better?
 
OlegShv
Posts: 604
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:22 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:44 pm



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 266):
Did Russia ever recognise Chechnya?

De-facto, it did.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 266):
You know the answer, but if it defacto did, then you have to admit Russia annexed Chechnya again. And don't give me the Chechen terrorist activities crap, we all know what happened in Ryazan and we all know what Russia did in Chechnya and that it continues to this day.

So... If chechens start kidnapping people by hundreds from Russian villages across the border - this is all just crap and it doesn't count... Ok. whatever. You know what, it doesn't matter what you think because people who could do something about it - did something, and they were right. I'm just tired of this crap from all-knowing American right-wingers.
 
Gman94
Posts: 1167
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 2:56 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:15 pm



Quoting OlegShv (Reply 269):
So... If chechens start kidnapping people by hundreds from Russian villages across the border - this is all just crap and it doesn't count... Ok. whatever. You know what, it doesn't matter what you think because people who could do something about it - did something, and they were right. I'm just tired of this crap from all-knowing American right-wingers.

So why are Russian's allowed to respond to militant separatists with military force but Georgians are not allowed to respond to militant separatists with military force? I also wonder what the Russian reaction would have been if Chechen's were backed by Georgia like the South Ossetian's are backed by Russia?

Russia is also living in cloud cuckoo land if they can think they can continue to be peacekeepers and mediators in South Ossetia. They are nothing but aggresors themselves and their backing for a criminal regime in South Ossetia is laughable but not really surprising coming from Commie gangsters.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:25 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 261):
"Shaakasvilli: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Georgia."

It is an exaggeration, but it is pretty much how he is behaving.

I might have to disagree there Mariner, I don't think Borat would ever have got himself into such a fix - he would have had a way out that did not involve a war. But parts of it are indeed a nice concept.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:49 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 264):
wasn't it NATO that wanted to station a few troops in downtown Belgrade after the Kosovo war just for "peacekeeping"?

-
No, at least not that I ever heard this. IF anyone at NATO ever considered such a thing, it was a crazy person (or several of the sort). At least General Wesley Clark, the NATO CIC then, NEVER considered this.
 
Scotty
Posts: 1846
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 1999 10:51 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:03 pm

Russian and America should just eff off home and leave everyone else in peace all over the world. We are all capable of sorting out our own messes.

We do not accept being pawns in a failing superpower game

Big countries meddling in small ones - the same old imperialist story.
 
Elite
Posts: 2309
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:31 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:10 pm



Quoting Scotty (Reply 273):

No disrespect intended to any country, but whenever something happens it is the superpowers that are expected to help out and clean up the mess... when they need them they expect them to be there, but once they don't they expect them to clear out...
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:15 pm



Quoting Elite (Reply 274):
but once they don't they expect them to clear out...

Which part of that is difficult to understand?
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:02 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 271):
I don't think Borat would ever have got himself into such a fix - he would have had a way out that did not involve a war.

I think he has come out of it rather well. He's still in power. He gets to play the victim. He now has the start of a buffer against Russia. He gets a chance to play on a world stage.

He gets western - that is US - troops in Georgia. No matter that they are there for humanitarian reasons, I guess he figures that if fired on they'll fire back.

He gets huge amounts of foreign aid - probably disproportionate to the cost. Unless you count human lives, of course, but they never seem to matter to some players.

He gets to complete the break with the CIS, which, I'm sure in his mind, means the possibility of greater embrace by the west.

He gets a new, deeper relationship with Turkey, who may become a de facto big brother, a source of military, political and financial support.

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/world/9658860.asp?scr=1

"Russia, Georgia green light Turkey-sponsored Caucasian union"

Not a bad week's work.

mariner

[Edited 2008-08-14 12:13:29]
 
Scotty
Posts: 1846
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 1999 10:51 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:25 pm



Quoting Elite (Reply 274):
but whenever something happens it is the superpowers that are expected to help out and clean up the mess... when they need them they expect them to be there, but once they don't they expect them to clear out...

History shows that it is "superpowers" that have caused "the mess" over the centuries, whilst smaller nations are trampled underfoot

There is no major ideological difference between the US and Russia nowadays - no "communist v capitalist". Nowadays they even have churches in Russia and God is back in. They even managed to blow up the statue of Stalin in Gori FFS

Instead it is a matter of two pretty dim little guys (Putin and Bush) with big chips on their shoulders trying to prove they have bigger d*cks than everyone else.

Just like HItler had to prove. How I wish that wee t*rd had got into art school
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:18 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...eal-for-missle-defence-shield.html

now that will help to de-fuse the situation considerably..

I see a potential major rift created within Nato and the West about the future treatment and relations with Russia.
This qualified a.hole Saakashvili has no idea what he triggered of...

[Edited 2008-08-14 13:34:26]
 
Scotty
Posts: 1846
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 1999 10:51 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:57 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 278):
now that will help to de-fuse the situation considerably..

I see a potential major rift created within Nato and the West about the future treatment and relations with Russia.
This qualified a.hole Saakashvili has no idea what he triggered of...

Indeed. But whats the rush for these missiles if they were not intended to be aimed at Russia but to strike Iranian missiles in flight??

Seems the game is up on that one.

Countries such as Italy, Germany, France are being much more circumspect. The Russians could gain a lot of points by removing their tanks from Georgia overnight

I hear that Saakashvili had a Belgian PR company working the worlds press for the last week.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11532
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:15 pm



Quoting Scotty (Reply 279):
Indeed. But whats the rush for these missiles if they were not intended to be aimed at Russia but to strike Iranian missiles in flight??

Seems the game is up on that one.

It doesn't have to do with any offensive capability that can be directed toward Russia. You think a few missiles will do anything?

The reason it is so hot now is the demonstration of the closeness of the relationship and to get USA assets into any line of fire and complicate any future decisions by Russia.

Also Poland is not a direct neighbor of Russia so how does it affect them?

Tugg
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25764
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:20 pm



Quoting Scotty (Reply 279):
I hear that Saakashvili had a Belgian PR company working the worlds press for the last week.

Yes indeed. He has made the KLA/UCK look like amateurs. The PR stunt has been 100% up til now. Only problem is that today it was revealed by the British press that Georgian troops had dropped grenades down into a basement where they knew Russian Woman and children were hiding from the fighting. Not so poor guy now are you Mr Georgian President. The two sides are all as bad as eachother and the West is best left out of it.

USA will not send in troops it was confirmed tonight...... surprise surprise. It would be suicide for America.
 
Confuscius
Posts: 3735
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 12:29 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:26 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 258):
And on... here's some background I didn't know:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...olumn

"In the 21st century nations don't invade other nations." John McCain  Confused


 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11532
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:50 pm



Quoting Confuscius (Reply 282):
"In the 21st century nations don't invade other nations." John McCain

Yeah..... that is a fairly stupid thing to say. Iraq and Afghanistan...... seems like they should stand out in peoples memories.

Now will someone claim: "We did not invade those countries, we simply supported Resolutions that were created and passed by the UN."

Tugg
 
miamix707
Posts: 3848
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:22 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:14 pm



Quoting Tugger (Reply 283):
Quoting Confuscius (Reply 282):
"In the 21st century nations don't invade other nations." John McCain

Yeah..... that is a fairly stupid thing to say. Iraq and Afghanistan...... seems like they should stand out in peoples memories.

That means "nation's that don't attack you", which really eliminates Afghanistan from your argument. However, not Iraq... there the US intelligence really bombed... if you'd pardon the pun.

Perfect timing by Russia, as sad as it is, being bogged down in Iraq the US forces cannot be deployed to Georgia. If there was any justice in this world Putin's forces should've been confronted by a coalition and expelled in an embarrassing manner, but it's Russia, and nobody's gonna do it unless it's lead by the US.

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 270):

So why are Russian's allowed to respond to militant separatists with military force but Georgians are not allowed to respond to militant separatists with military force?

Exactly
 
Scotty
Posts: 1846
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 1999 10:51 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:35 pm



Quoting Tugger (Reply 283):
Now will someone claim: "We did not invade those countries, we simply supported Resolutions that were created and passed by the UN."

I think thats what Medvedev claimed for Russia in Ossetia isnt it?

At least they could argue they were loking after their own citizens. I dont think there were many US or UK citizens in Iraq.

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 282):
"In the 21st century nations don't invade other nations." John McCain

Dear God, Americans, please dont vote this extra from Sesame Street into the White House
 
Acheron
Posts: 1852
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:56 pm



Quoting Scotty (Reply 279):

I hear that Saakashvili had a Belgian PR company working the worlds press for the last week.



Quoting OA260 (Reply 281):
oday it was revealed by the British press that Georgian troops had dropped grenades down into a basement where they knew Russian Woman and children were hiding from the fighting.

Any links for both of those, please?.
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:21 am



Quoting Scotty (Reply 279):
Indeed. But whats the rush for these missiles if they were not intended to be aimed at Russia but to strike Iranian missiles in flight??

Seems the game is up on that one.

10 missiles positioned in Poland do nothing to Russia's deterrent. However, the fact that the Bear is back has moved PM Tusk to hurry the deal along. Why? Because Poland's price for stationing those missiles is a sweet defensive package. Poland's military doesn't have the budget nor really the need for expansion. But it's now a mish-mash of modern NATO equipment and old Soviet junk. Being able to upgrade everything for less is a pretty sweet deal. Tusk's predecessor was ready to let the US have those bases for nothing in return.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:25 am



Quoting Mariner (Reply 276):
Not a bad week's work.

It is a convincing argument for that, but how will this week's work seem in a couple of month's time?
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4635
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:45 am



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 76):
Photos of Gori after Russian bombing.
Tragic. Sad

I am not taking either side. They are both evil.

http://fotogaleri.ntvmsnbc.com/detay...&dp=1

I am not taking sides either. The pics are very sad, and really makes me question what the attack to civilian targets accomplishes. Very sad, and unacceptable.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 175):
If the president picked any of them, youd still have people pissed off that he diddnt pick another option sarcastic While I think GWB is a terrible president, he does have moments where he does the right thing.

The stupid ass GWB probably thought the state of Georgia was being attacked in the US.


Who won this war? Who really won? What was accomplished? I am disturbed by the loss of so many innocent people. These wars need to stop!
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25764
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:37 am



Quoting Acheron (Reply 286):
Any links for both of those, please?.


But we do know that many civilians died – and if more did not, it was thanks to the thick cellars of Tskhinvali, not Georgian restraint. Ossetians talk of a continuous bombardment for 14 hours of both the city and the road north to the mountains.

They also allege atrocities, such as the Georgians throwing grenades into cellars where civilians were sheltering.

http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900SID/RMOI-7HGW4M?OpenDocument

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When he got through the next time there were violent clashes in the city between Georgian forces and Ossetians backed by Russian troops. “My brother said it was unreal what was going on there,” Mikhail said. “Georgian soldiers were retreating. The streets were full of dead bodies. He said people saw Georgian troops throw grenades in the cellars of buildings to finish off survivors as they left.”

http://www.metroeireann.com/index.ph...tion=com_content&task=view&id=1313
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:51 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 290):
They also allege atrocities, such as the Georgians throwing grenades into cellars where civilians were sheltering.

http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900SID/RMOI-7HGW4M?OpenDocument

I have read the same in the German "Stern" magazine (this week's edition).

In the end it is a power game. Putin wants to recreate the old Soviet Union (which is in the end the territorwise the old Czarist colonial empire. Starting in the 15th century, Russia expanded towards the east and south. The only reason why these colonies were not noticed by many people is that they were right across the border and not overseas, like with e.g. Britain, Spain and France.) including satellite states and wants to use gasand oil to put pressure on anybody else to make Russia "respected" (read feared) again. The only pipeline through which the Central Asian countries can export oil and gas can be exported without Russian controol, runs through South Ossetia. Now Russia basically controls ALL oil and gas exports from the biggest part of Asia.
They also felt humiliated by the Kosovo independence, which went ahead against their wishes, so now it is a "tit for tat" situation.
I wonder on the other hand if the Russian will continue to leave the Mafia gangs free reign of South Ossetia.

Saakashvili gave them the reason for the invasion with his adventurerism. His biggest mistake ( reaching back to his precedessors) was so far the forced "Georgisation" of the minority regions, which under the old Soviet Union, had at least a cultural autonomy.
This created dissent and the result was the rebellion of South Ossetia and Abchasia.
Obviously, if Russia offers them the autonomy they had in the Soviet Union, they'd support Russia. On the other hand, Saakashvili's popularity in Georgia has been sinking over the last year because election promises didn't fullfill and he probably hoped to be celebrated as the "liberator" of the rebellious provinces if he had ucceeded.
Saakashvili probably misinterpreted the careful support by the Americans and the EU as a card blanche, which would guaratee him American and NATO support fort whatever he was doing, and probably expected the US to land several divisions in his support, which the US, even if they wanted, could not do due to geographical and logistical reasons.

On the other hand, now Saakashvili is free to leave the CIS alltogether, the rebel provinces are definitely gone, and do what he was trying earlier, getting in closer with Turkey, and hopefully for him, NATO some day.

Jan
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:05 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 288):
but how will this week's work seem in a couple of month's time?

It's a very good question, maybe the essential question, but I don't have an answer. I don't do the future.

As I see it, Saakashvili has let the genie out of the bottle - or opened Pandora's Box, pick your metaphor.

Reading the headlines, it has caused a seismic change in the West/Russia relationship, but I wonder if that is right? There are too many unknown unknowns for me.

I was disappointed at the response of the British Foreign Minister, for example. David Milbrand has an extraordinary mind, "a brain the size of a plant" someone said. But I thought his Soviet-era comment was simple kneejerk. Just what did anyone think Russia was going to do? And since all politics is local, and the recent UK relationship with Russia seems edgy, was he just playing to the crowd?

On the other hand, I am equally surprised by the reaction Of President Bush, which was not only measured, but seemed to have it in perspective, as least as far as Georgia is concerned. He's calling the Russian action "bullying" and even the Russians might agree - "the aggressor has been punished enough."

I didn't think GWB had it in him.

So then I have to wonder how much, if any, of anyone's reaction has been orchestrated. Just what did GWB and Putin (or their staff) discuss at Beijing when this whole mess began?

mariner
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25764
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:17 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 291):
Saakashvili gave them the reason for the invasion with his adventurerism

Very true. Whilst I know the Russians have their own aspirations and ''projects'' I cant stand this Russia is bad and we are good mentality that the Georgians are trying to claim. They are as bad as the Russians IMHO. They would love to bring the USA and Europe into a war against Russia and thats what is so dangerous. The Georgians could cause a hell of a situation if they were allowed to.
 
Scotty
Posts: 1846
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 1999 10:51 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:18 pm



Quoting Acheron (Reply 286):
Any links for both of those, please?.

Google "saakashvilli belgian pr agency" and there are some coomments - I did see a buried news item two days ago but cant find it

Quoting OA260 (Reply 293):
Whilst I know the Russians have their own aspirations and ''projects'' I cant stand this Russia is bad and we are good mentality that the Georgians are trying to claim.

Check

Have a look at the comments section at the end of this usual biased stuff from Glenn Beck and you will find that there are quite a few people even in the US on the same frequency

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/14/beck.georgia/index.html
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:25 am

The whole thing reminds me of something I have once read about the start of WW1:
Imagine the different countries are members of street gangs. The big boys (superpowers, in pre WW1 the UK, France, Austria, Germany) of the different gangs might be insulting or threatening to each other, but are too wary to actually start a fight, because they know the strengths of the other ones. But in each gang you'll have the smaller hanger-on boys (small countries with an agenda of their own, in WW1 the Serb extremists, who were counting for the Russian backing, now the Georgian president thinking that he has the backing of the US and the EU), who suddenly feel very brave, thinking that they have a big boy in the background to back them up if their plan goes wrong.
So they take on somebody of a rival gang (read treaty organisation, in pre WW1 the entene cordiale or the central powers, during cold war NATO or the Warsaw pact countries).
The others now feel compelled to help the little one, due to honour or treaty obligations, and in no time you'll have a major gang fight in the streets.

Jan
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:43 am



Quoting Mariner (Reply 292):
On the other hand, I am equally surprised by the reaction Of President Bush, which was not only measured, but seemed to have it in perspective, as least as far as Georgia is concerned. He's calling the Russian action "bullying" and even the Russians might agree - "the aggressor has been punished enough."

I didn't think GWB had it in him.

And then again, I would like to hear Bush expand a bit on the punishments to be meted out to countries that undertake unprovoked attacks. Self flagellation could be the look for the rest of 2008.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 295):
The whole thing reminds me of something I have once read about the start of WW1:

Not wrong Jan. I am just reading a book with an excellent section on the idiocies associated with the start of WWI (A World Undone). I have just got past the part where Paris is too busy watching the trial of Henriette Caillaux for shooting an editor of le Figaro to be bothered about the coming war. She fired six bullets from a browning pistol and hit the ed four times, but claimed she had shut her eyes and pointed the pistol at the floor. The editor it was claimed fell on the floor in funk when the pistol appeared and thus had been shot in error. I leave you to work out what verdict the Paris court produced!!

No public issue quite as bizarre at present, but shutting your eyes and firing off the all six shots at a target that you did not think was there might be similar to the Ossetian sqabble.

I do love the way Mr S is complaining about the Russians having broken the agreement when AFAI can figure out, they have not had formal negotiations over an agreement.

Probably the Russians are just bringing democracy to Ossetia and we know from Donald R (he of the unknown unknowns) that democracy is a bit messy, so we just need to follow the ex leader and accept a bit more mess - we know how good it is for us - NOT.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:05 am

Shaakashvili's Belgian Connection:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/16/georgia.russia

"Last year Saakashvili paid a reported €500,000 to engage Brussels' Aspect Consulting to brand Georgia as a western wannabe, a Nato and European Union aspirant, emphasising everything from its fabulous food and drink to its liberties and democratic politics.

The PR campaign went into overdrive last week when Georgia found itself on the receiving end of post-Soviet Russia's first ever invasion of another country. Reporters covering the conflict have been showered daily with emails providing news, contact details, mobile phone numbers of officials, video footage, background material, and tele-conference access to Georgians from Saakashvili down. Highly efficient, highly effective, usually punctual."


mariner
 
kevin
Posts: 1036
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 5:03 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:22 am

here is a link to an interview where a reporter tries to interrupt a woman and a girl who were in a conflict zone (South Ossetia)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d4f_1218758868
 
OlegShv
Posts: 604
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:22 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:57 am

Check this one out from Fox News.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fBGtXS66VM
  • 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 11C, Braybuddy, Redd and 36 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos