Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 7
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:11 am

Russian fighter jets have bombed positions in the Caucasian state of Georgia ,after Georgian troops entered the breakaway region of South Ossetia,which is considered integral part of Georgia.Russian airforce used Suchoi SU-25 fighter -jets to bomb positions close to Geogia's capital Tiflis.There are reports of heavy casualties on both sides.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...ossetia8-2008aug08,0,5748959.story

[Edited 2008-08-08 00:34:24]
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9265
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:48 am

Georgian troops are nearing the capital of the separatist region of South Ossetia after a night of heavy shelling and air strikes on rebel positions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7548715.stm

Russian media reports said Georgia had launched a tank-led attack on the separatist stronghold of Tskhinvali, and airstrikes on rebel positions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7546639.stm

Georgia accuses Russia

The Georgian Minister for Reintegration, Temur Yakobashvili, said it was the separatists who were trying to drag Georgia into a dangerous new conflict.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7547888.stm

apparently, Russia is not (yet) directly involved in the conflict.
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:03 am



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 1):
apparently, Russia is not (yet) directly involved in the conflict.

"..Georgien hat nach einem russischen Luftangriff über der Krisenregion Südossetien sämtliche Streitkräfte sowie Tausende Reservisten mobilisiert...
Drei russische Kampfflugzeuge hatten zuvor nach georgischen Angaben Bomben auf zwei Ziele in der von Georgien abtrünnigen Provinz abgeworfen. "Ich fordere Russland auf, mit den Bombardierung friedlicher georgischer Städten aufzuhören", sagte er. ..."

That means that clearly Russian jets have bombed psitions in Georgia..
http://www.n-tv.de/Kaempfe_im_Kaukas...ht_mobil/080820080409/1005744.html
 
User avatar
stasisLAX
Posts: 2969
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:04 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:21 am

Things are heating up quickly in Georgia again -

"Separatist forces in South Ossetia were also engaged in intensive fighting with government troops, officials on both sides said.

A week of clashes and escalating tension in South Ossetia has raised fears of an all-out war that could quickly draw in Russia, which has close ties with South Ossetia's separatist leadership."

Russia could be drawn into this new violence as the separatists are claiming to be pinned down as Georgian military units had almost surrounded Tskhinvali, the rebel capital, and had taken five villages in the separatist-held region."

The article continues that "The Georgian government said it had information about ”hundreds of mercenaries, tanks and other equipment” entering South Ossetia through the Roki tunnel from Russia. A government official said Russian army units were also approaching."

"The South Ossetia side for the first time deployed two Suchoi SU-25 fighter jets to bomb Georgian positions, and a short time later, Georgia sent five of the same jets to carry out attacks in South Ossetia" a report from the Russia Interfax news agency said.

The United Nations Security Council met last night to discuss the escalating tensions in Georgia. UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon issued a statement declaring his concern about the latest fighting and "urged warring parties to refrain from action that could endanger stability in their region."

Source: http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/s...ing-violence-in-south-ossetia.html

[Edited 2008-08-08 01:26:16]
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9265
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:24 am

What are the true reasons for Russia's intervention in this conflict between South Ossetia and Georgia? Weren't these two regions parts of the old USSR before and under Moscow's rule?

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2):
That means that clearly Russian jets have bombed psitions in Georgia..

Is it simply political or are there stacks of natural resources (natural gas and/or oil) they might want to put their hands on?
 
User avatar
stasisLAX
Posts: 2969
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:04 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:39 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 4):
Is it simply political or are there stacks of natural resources (natural gas and/or oil) they might want to put their hands on?

The U.S. Secret Service is not very fond of the South Ossetia "natural resources". The region is well-know for its counterfeiting operation where fake $100 bills have been seized by them and Georgian law enforcement officials. The Secret Service discovered that more than $20 million in the fake bills were smuggled from South Ossetia to Israel and other countries for distrubution in 2006.

They are a former Soviet republic that now seems to be governed by organized crime operations and is seen as lawless. South Ossetia controls access to the vital Roki tunnel, one of a limited number of routes that cross the northern section of the Caucasus Mountains. Georgia wants to control access to the Georgian side of the tunnel; currently, the tolls and transit fees for utilizing of the tunnel are the major form of income for South Ossetia separatists.

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2006/11/25/AR2006112500963_pf.html

[Edited 2008-08-08 01:50:00]
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:50 am

From Wiki ..

"..Economy

Following a war with Georgia in the 1990s, South Ossetia has struggled economically. Employment and supplies are scarce. Additionally, Georgia cut off supplies of electricity to the region, which forced the South Ossetian government to run an electric cable through North Ossetia. The majority of the population survives on subsistence farming. Virtually the only significant economic asset that South Ossetia possesses is control of the Roki Tunnel that links Russia and Georgia, from which the South Ossetian government reportedly obtains as much as a third of its budget by levying customs duties on freight traffic. The separatist officials admitted that Tskhinvali received more than 60 percent of its 2006 budget revenue directly from the Russian government.

In late 2006, a large international counterfeiting operation stretching from South Ossetia was revealed by U.S. Secret Service and Georgian police.

South Ossetian GDP was estimated at US$ 15 million (US$ 250 per capita) in a work published in 2002...."

Clearly the region is not viable independantly and -as StasisLAX has mentioned- biggest economic activity is criminal ..
The region is inhabited mainly by Russian-origin citizens ,that's why Moscow considers the province as strategically important to them.With the dismantling of the former USSR ,the place might just be a big "Corleone" type retreat for gangs active in all sorts of illegal activities.
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9265
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:47 am

Looks like Putin will come into action. I thought he was only the Prime Minister now but it seems like he is the one with the power to decide.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080808...p/georgiasossetiarussiaunrestputin

BEIJING (AFP) - Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin on Friday condemned "aggressive actions" by Georgian troops in South Ossetia, and said that Russia would be compelled to retaliate.
 
PAHS200
Posts: 494
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:06 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:08 pm

CNN is reporting the Georgia shot down two Russian aircraft
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9265
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:29 pm

Who is behind Georgia and who provides them weapons? They are a relatively small territory, their military equipment must be rather reduced compared with that of the Russians.

Quoting PAHS200 (Reply 8):
CNN is reporting the Georgia shot down two Russian aircraft

Will Russia launch an attack on Georgia and try to take them over? What is their goal?
 
AGC525
Posts: 956
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 9:50 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:30 pm

 
agill
Posts: 1102
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:49 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:36 pm

Wasn't there an incident not to long ago with a russian MiG29 shooting down an georgian UAV?
 
PAHS200
Posts: 494
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:06 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:38 pm

the Pres. of Georgia is on CNN right now he's saying Georgia is under attack by Russia. he also said that russia bombed a market center.
 
PAHS200
Posts: 494
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:06 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:39 pm

he also confirmed the two Russian aircraft were shot down
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9265
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:48 pm

I am being cautious with either Russian or US mainstream news channels. Like with every war there will be a lot of false news circulating on who has shot what.

I would be looking toward more "neutral" news channels that don't cater to sensationalism. They must not be easy to find. I am not sure if SkyNews or the Beeb would be much better.
 
agill
Posts: 1102
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:49 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:01 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 14):

I would be looking toward more "neutral" news channels that don't cater to sensationalism. They must not be easy to find. I am not sure if SkyNews or the Beeb would be much better.

I'd think most major newsoutlets have the same sources in this case.
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:20 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 9):
Who is behind Georgia and who provides them weapons?

I spent some time in Tbilisi last year. Saw mainly Russian equipment on the Georgian soldiers (AK-47'S ect.) The Airport at Tbilisi is being used by the US to move troops and supplies to Afghanistan. Their were US soldiers barracked at the airport loading C17's and C130's.

I saw a few GA MI-8's flying around but not to much GA military . However Georgia did send troops to Iraq and were part of the coalition. Guess President Bush would have to offer some "help" to them.
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9265
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:26 pm

Thank you for your input. I trust your information as you spent time there.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):
I spent some time in Tbilisi last year.

Are there still US troops stationed in this country? What will be the reaction from the U.S. if the Russians break into a war against Georgia?

Putin and W. Bush are both at the Beijing Olympics they must have set some time to talk about the situation in Georgia on the side.
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:48 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 17):
Are there still US troops stationed in this country?

Would not say "troops" some Airforce logistical types and various support personnel.
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:51 pm

Russian troops have entered South Ossetia to help defending the province..
It starts getting really nasty..

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,570883,00.html
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:18 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):
Saw mainly Russian equipment on the Georgian soldiers (AK-47'S ect.)

This doesn't matter. E.g. the US government asked the Bulgarians to re-open a production line for AKM and AK-47 rifles for the new Iraqi army and police, since the Iraqi soldiers are already familiar with this type of equipment (the Russians protested, claiming that they had the copyright for all AK-47 variants and any production order should go foremost to their factory in Russia).

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 19):
Russian troops have entered South Ossetia to help defending the province..
It starts getting really nasty..

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan....html

I expect similar reactions once the Ukraine and also Moldova are making serious attempts to join NATO.
Both countries have huge Russian minorities (mainly due to Stalin's resettlement policies), in mainly the industrial parts of both countries. These people would like both Ukraine and Moldova to become provinces of Russia again and probably will resist if the countries join NATO and the EU.

Jan
 
agill
Posts: 1102
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:49 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:33 pm

They say it's four downed russian planes now. Anyone heard what kind of planes it is?
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18742
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:38 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 7):
I thought he was only the Prime Minister now but it seems like he is the one with the power to decide.

Was therer ever any doubt who was in charge? I think Putin has an axe to grind in Georgia and has been egging them on for years.
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:38 pm

The risk of escalation is genuine- Georgia asking the USA for help and assistance..
If the EEC and the USA are clever-they stay out of this conflict ..

http://www.welt.de/politik/arti23016...USA_zur_Hilfe_gegen_Russland_.html

[Edited 2008-08-08 07:39:02]
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:58 pm

..as usual western intelligence agencies did not assume a glimps of what was cooking..
Germany's Walter Steinmeier was still visiting Tiflis some days ago and insisted upon Saakashvili to refain from violent solutions to a regional conflict.
The moment of the incoursion was wisely choosen- just the day of the opening of the Olympics..
While the reasons for the conflict might be valid,the form to resolve the issue is the worst possible scenario.Russia will just smash Georgia and the West-will not intervene.At the
end of the daywe will see a situation worse than before.
Saakashvili might be a brillantly educated politician,he's a very bad strategist...
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18742
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:06 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 24):
..as usual western intelligence agencies did not assume a glimps of what was cooking..

I don't think that's necessarily true. What was "the West" supposed to do? The Kremlin had a clear goal here and they are currently in no mood to entertain any instruction from the West.
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:51 pm

German media speak about more than 1000 killed already in Southern Ossetia..(unconfirmed though..) and Russian troops getting deployed in the province.

Angela Merkel will travel to Sotschi to meet with Putin in some days in order to de-fuse the situation,but that might come quite late.

Saakashvili is a pure bred product of neo-liberal CIA think-tanks like Freedomhouse or NDI (National Democratic Institute ),who use the ex-USSR satellites as test-regions for "democracy export proceedures" . (The "Rose revolutions"..)
Georgia's political leaders must be f.u.king out of their minds to challenge Putin in his backyard and hope big brother Bush and Brussels will help..
 
Phoenix9
Posts: 2024
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:25 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:53 pm

Great! Just what we need....another war / conflict!
 
OlegShv
Posts: 604
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:22 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:20 pm

I'd say that this is a huge gamble on the part of Georgian government and Saakashvili in particular. I'm sure the war was approved, if not orchestrated by the "big brother", because Condi visited Georgia a few weeks ago.

This whole thing may actually give McCain a boost.
 
agill
Posts: 1102
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:49 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:24 pm

Funny how everything, nomatter what happens, somehow is USAs fault.
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9265
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:35 pm

I got to see pictures of W.Bush and Putin (separately) in the Beijing Olympic stadium. Looked like they were sitting not too far away from each other. Both of them looked very tense. Hidden behind the fun, there seemed to be some concerns.

I wonder if they took advantage of being there to meet and talk.
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:37 pm



Quoting Agill (Reply 29):
Funny how everything, nomatter what happens, somehow is USAs fault.

It is exclusively the fault of Saakashvili - but there are certain "liasons fatales" between those who encourage certain political philiophies and the off-springs ...
The Caucasian conflict can only be solved by mutual discussions under considerations of ethnical roots.What Tiblissi is doing right now is NOT what is in the guidelines of NATO or EEC membership criteria.
It would be highly unlikely that nobody in Washington knew about these current events upfront,since Saakashvili is a pure breed product of Freedomhouse-like thinktanks...
I recall a documentary film on French TV some months ago,where they explainded and showed how they train politicians from various unstable regions in Washington in the subtile art of political deception,counter-revolution and media-control.Saakashvili was part of their trainees..
 
JoKeR
Posts: 1851
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:34 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:49 pm

If Kosovo could gain "independence" so too should South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:50 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 26):
Saakashvili is a pure bred product of neo-liberal CIA think-tanks like Freedomhouse or NDI (National Democratic Institute ),who use the ex-USSR satellites as test-regions for "democracy export proceedures" . (The "Rose revolutions"..)

OH Well, much better than some madrasa , or Kremlin training operation somewhere. After all do you not support the spread of democracy ? Is their a better way ? Would Georgia be better off under the Mafia bosses in Moscow .. doubt it.

Russia has rights to protect its border area , and it should. But I am afraid Georgia may get the short end of this affair for sure.
 
Confuscius
Posts: 3735
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 12:29 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:58 pm



Quoting PAHS200 (Reply 8):
CNN is reporting the Georgia shot down two Russian aircraft

What kind of fighter planes do the Georgia Air National Guard have? I know their HQ is located at Dobbins.
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10876
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:02 pm

Damn, shocking to hear this on the news, although I'm not entirely surprised. I was in Georgia just over a week ago, both Tbilisi and the regions towards Ossetia and the Caucasus Mountains, the general feeling from locals was that it would all just blow over - that Russia no longer possessed to force or the intent to pursue military action... looks like they were wrong.
 
OlegShv
Posts: 604
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:22 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:02 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 33):
After all do you not support the spread of democracy ?

I do not support the spread of democracy just for the sake of it.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 33):
s their a better way ?

Yes. Let the people decide themselves who should be their leader, without the CIA involvement.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 33):
Would Georgia be better off under the Mafia bosses in Moscow .. doubt it.

I agree.
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:13 pm

Seems we are heading for turbulent months ahead..

This link- out of a thread opened in the MIL forum by Madamme Concorde,gives some interesting news complementary to the Caucasus war..

http://europebusines.blogspot.com/20...s-naval-armada-heads-for-iran.html

[Edited 2008-08-08 11:50:47]
 
northwestair
Posts: 515
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2001 11:25 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:43 pm

I really hope that the USA doesn't try to get involved with this war btwn Georgia and Russia. If I was Putin I would tell the United States to stay clear or Russia might have to take action againt the United States
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:58 pm

Georgia pulls out his 1000 trops from Iraq and redeploys them in Georgia.

http://www.reuters.com/article/asiaCrisis/idUSL8127046
 
Acheron
Posts: 1852
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:08 pm

This is one of those conflicts were there is no easy or visible way out other than an armistice. Any other action could end in a massive escalation of the conflict to levels dangerous for everybody.

But I guess that's what you get when certain countries tries to promote separatism to weaken other countries' area of influence. The thing is that probably noone actually expected Russia to react in any manner, let alone militarily, so what we are seeing is the secondary effect that noone predicted of someone else's foreign policy.


Also, expect this campaing to be pretty much like the second Chechen War once the Russians decide to move in in full force.
 
OlegShv
Posts: 604
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:22 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:57 pm

BBC reports 1400 civilians dead after Georgian forces attempted to take control of the city of Tskhinvali. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7550354.stm
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9265
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:21 pm

The more we allow these little regions to become independent, the more chances are that there will be wars between them.

Another point as we are on an aviation forum. Has the Georgia/Ossetia war zone been declared a "no fly zone" for civilian airliners flying above there? We frequently fly over these places on our ways to South East Asia.
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:26 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 26):
Georgia's political leaders must be fu.king out of their minds to challenge Putin in his backyard and hope big brother Bush and Brussels will help..

I really don't understand why Georgia thought the time had come to bring the break-away province back under control? There really was no urgent reason to do so...

Surely it must have been a political decision do it now, based on an military assessment of the likeliness of success, which at first looked guaranteed indeed hence the early victory speech of the Georgian President, combined with the political opinion Russia would not intervene in this conflict.

Personally I think that one must be out of his mind to think one can just invade a break-away province which has full support from neighbouring Russia today! It seems like Georgian politicians have been so focused on Brussels and Washington lately, that they have completely missed the new political mentality of the leaders in the Kremlin. Gone are the days of Yeltsin, where Russia could just be stepped upon. With Putin, military action has again become a legitimate measure to enforce the Russian point of view and he'll do so to if needed...

BTW- this situation gives food for thought, knowing how vehemently Putin opposes the US anti-missile rocket shield... What IF he really decides to attack the Eastern European bases (like he has repeatedly suggested)? Is the US going to go to an outright nuclear war with Russia over such an attack? Or are they simply going to back off then...? It may be a situation which the US should carefully have to consider now, knowing that IF Russia goes ahead with such a military intervention after all (and contrary to what was generally believed till today): the US are in a catch 22 situation. Either they have to fight a war they can't win, or they have loose face.

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 32):
If Kosovo could gain "independence" so too should South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

It was always said the decision to agree with Kosovaran Independence would backfire, because there are far too many extremely similar situations around the world, where independence really is the last thing you'd want to see...

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 36):
the general feeling from locals was that it would all just blow over - that Russia no longer possessed to force or the intent to pursue military action

Are they nuts?
Putin is for real over this and the oil income has given him the financial resources to pursue his politics successfully. BTW- there are several other break-away provinces in Georgia and in Moldova, so he likely feld he had to put this straight to the leaders of those countries for once and for all before they thought they could have their go too...

Quoting Northwestair (Reply 38):
I really hope that the USA doesn't try to get involved with this war btwn Georgia and Russia. If I was Putin I would tell the United States to stay clear or Russia might have to take action against the United States

The US won't risk a conflict with Russia over this.

What's interesting however, is to see if lessons will be learned from it.
What happens if Russia decides to pursue the same military approach on those few NATO countries in Eastern Europe which are willing to host the radar basis for the US anti-missile shield? What if Russia knocks out those bases in a limited military surprise offensive? So far the doctrine used in the west is that they wouldn't do that and as such we shouldn't think about the next step, but what IF Russia does it after all? What then?
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:44 pm

Interesting to see how Georgia now tries to play the international media by putting itself in the position of the victim.

Also, the Georgian President can't hold a speech or he needs to be in front of a flag of his country as well as a flag of the EU (Georgia is NO EU member, not even a candidate member!!).

Thirdly, he constantly mentions his country is 'best friends with the USA and the EU' and he's in constant contact with them, clearly hoping for support...

Good orchestration for sure and he has clearly learned his lessons very well, but unfortunately the 'adversary' in this conflict is not some weak regional power like in the courses given to him in Washington, but Russia itself and so contrary to what the teachers of the courses always told him, the EU nor the USA will provide his country with more than kind words in support I am afraid, no matter how many flags he puts behind hem.

He's on his own and quite frankly he should have known he would. Very stupid to risk it.
 
Acheron
Posts: 1852
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:22 pm

Georgian Su-25 getting shot down, Russian Grad and 2S3 self-propelled howitzers opening fire.

http://www.vesti.ru/videos?vid=143324
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:11 pm



Quoting Northwestair (Reply 38):
I really hope that the USA doesn't try to get involved with this war btwn Georgia and Russia.

And just why the hell would the US do that militarily (which is what you're implying)!? Georgia is neither in the EU or in NATO and so far the US has only urged a cease fire.

Quoting Northwestair (Reply 38):
If I was Putin I would tell the United States to stay clear or Russia might have to take action againt the United States

Yeah, you'd like that. You ducked my question about your family name and an IPN list btw.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 43):
What happens if Russia decides to pursue the same military approach on those few NATO countries in Eastern Europe which are willing to host the radar basis for the US anti-missile shield? What if Russia knocks out those bases in a limited military surprise offensive? So far the doctrine used in the west is that they wouldn't do that and as such we shouldn't think about the next step, but what IF Russia does it after all? What then?



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 43):
BTW- this situation gives food for thought, knowing how vehemently Putin opposes the US anti-missile rocket shield... What IF he really decides to attack the Eastern European bases (like he has repeatedly suggested)? Is the US going to go to an outright nuclear war with Russia over such an attack? Or are they simply going to back off then...? It may be a situation which the US should carefully have to consider now, knowing that IF Russia goes ahead with such a military intervention after all (and contrary to what was generally believed till today): the US are in a catch 22 situation. Either they have to fight a war they can't win, or they have loose face.

Apples to Oranges.

Putin would be as dumb as, if not dumber than, Saakashvili if he were to attack Poland or the Czech Republic. Let's not forget that Russia threatened these two sovereign nations before when they joined NATO for joining NATO. And that right there is the crux of the matter. Attack Poland or the Czech Republic, and Article V gets invoked. There is no way Putin can make war with these countries without making war with the US. Warsaw and Prague aren't as foolish as Tblisi, so Putin sending tanks over those borders would be an act of Russian aggression requiring swift, preferably brutal, retaliation upon the Russian Federation.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10876
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:42 pm



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 43):
Are they nuts?

No, they are just believing too much misguided spiel from the government. There is a real dislike for the Russians from many of the Georgian people - not all, but at least half, so you can see why such information about the 'Mother Russia' crumbling would go down so well.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 42):
Another point as we are on an aviation forum. Has the Georgia/Ossetia war zone been declared a "no fly zone" for civilian airliners flying above there? We frequently fly over these places on our ways to South East Asia.

On my return I flew past the area in question, although as we approached the Georgian part of the Caucasus range a right bank was made and then ten minutes or so later a left bank to bring us back on the previous course (only further over) - so I guess airliners may fly around this area.
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2001 5:34 pm

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:02 pm



Quoting JoKeR (Reply 32):
If Kosovo could gain "independence" so too should South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

These were my fears and I quoted them when I expressed doubts over the wisdom of Kosovo declaring indepenence. At the same time if Russia is going to use the example of Kosovo it first has to accept Kosovo and grant Chechnya independence too. Both the west and Russia have been playing politics and now innocent people will suffer and nothing will be solved.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 40):
Also, expect this campaing to be pretty much like the second Chechen War once the Russians decide to move in in full force.

Please let it not go worse!! That would be horrible. I don't think the west gives a damn or will aid either Georgia or Kosovo. Wonder if Serbia is looking closely at its options.
 
Acheron
Posts: 1852
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: War Breaks Out In The Caucasus -Georgia-Russia

Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:13 pm



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 48):
if Russia is going to use the example of Kosovo it first has to accept Kosovo

They probably are willing to do that.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 48):
grant Chechnya independence too

Chechnya was pretty much brought under control after the second Chechen War and only remains a few groups, which actually received support from Georgia during the heyday of the chechen wars, so I think we are seeing some sort of "tit for tat".

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 48):
Please let it not go worse!! That would be horrible.

Everything is possible, sadly. The russians have been mild about this, since if you notice the pictures, they are using pretty much 20years old equipment. If they decide to use the new stuff, things will get nasty quite fast.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 7

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 1337Delta764, casinterest, emperortk, MohawkWeekend, Number6, stlgph and 32 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos