jm017
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:17 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 21):
Not suggesting just discussing .... jeeezus . You act like I have the red phone in my bathroom ....no dont do it AGM !

Fair enough. Your first word was Arguments. Man was the response strong. Russia will grow stronger and there isn't much that can be done short of a God-awful war and lamenting the unfortunate selection of countries blessed with vast energy resources: Venezuela, the volatile Middle East, Burma and Russia....Is it too difficult for Canada, Switzerland and Australia to come into some oil?
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AGM100
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:22 pm



Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 39):
The US and Russia will bluster, but they're not about to go to war...

It may get complicated when Putin gives the OK to Iran on Nukes,,,, since we have boxed ourselves in on Iran. Putin will surely use Iran to antagonize us , so we may never fight directly but I am afraid of what may happen.

I agree completely that the US will never invade Russia .. of course that would be insane. I brought the subject up on this blog just to read ideas that came back like (GDB's post). One thing I like about Anet is that there is always many varied opinions and views. Some good ... some not.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 47):
Actually this penguin has most likely more military intelligence and understanding than AGM 100

Yes but my dog could kick that penguins ass ... Man that is one big penguin though !
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:42 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Thread starter):
Scary times people , what is going to happen .

Scary times because of whom?

Who is sending that mega-armada in the Persian Gulf?
Who is it that wants to attack Iran when Iran has attacked no one?
Who has helped Georgia attacking South Ossetia?
Who said they will install missile shields in Poland to counter-attack Russia (reminds me of Saddam's WMDs Russia now being the bad guy)?
Who has made the mess in Iraq with the excuse of Saddam Hussein's supposed WMDs?

The U.S. should really go about their own business restoring consumer's faith, the Dollar's value and take proper care of their economy creating employment on their own grounds instead of outsourcing to China and elsewhere, tackling illegal immigration, straightening out their financial institutions and so much more.
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aviationmaster
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:01 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 52):
Scary times because of whom?

Who is sending that mega-armada in the Persian Gulf?
Who is it that wants to attack Iran when Iran has attacked no one?
Who has helped Georgia attacking South Ossetia?
Who said they will install missile shields in Poland to counter-attack Russia (reminds me of Saddam's WMDs Russia now being the bad guy)?
Who has made the mess in Iraq with the excuse of Saddam Hussein's supposed WMDs?

Know you really think that the USA is the bigger risk than countries like Russia or Iran?  Silly
 
StarAC17
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:14 pm



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 10):
The US was fighting a guerilla style war until recently. No conventional army has a prayer against the US Military even a diminished war weary one.

I agree right now but they are spread too thin right now fighting in both Iraq in Afghanistan, if this was Russia's strategy then it is a brilliant one to regain a significant amount of power. To successfully fight off a conventional war against Russia you would need at the minimum another draft and at the maximum a program like Israel's where everyone must serve in the armed forces.

Also just because the US has the largest military over the next 7 combined doesn't mean it will be a cakewalk to win a war.

If this is an attempt for the Russians to re-form the Soviet Union then as of right now I think/fear that the US and NATO is powerless to stop it unless they quickly abandon both major conflicts in the Middle East or get a huge ally such as China.

Potentially in a short time the world can be transformed from one superpower (the US) to three being the US, Russia, and China. This will make the first cold war look like a joke.
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TAZA
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:27 pm

Aside from being a totally stupid idea it is also not necessary. This country is deep in the
process of destroying itself internally and has been doing so since the 1960's. All our
adversaries need to do is be patient and the United States of America will cease to exist
within the next 30 years (or sooner) and then they can simply confiscate the leftovers.
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AGM100
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:28 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 52):
The U.S. should really go about their own business restoring consumer's faith, the Dollar's value and take proper care of their economy creating employment on their own grounds instead of outsourcing to China and elsewhere, tackling illegal immigration, straightening out their financial institutions and so much more.

Can not say that I disagree with this ... good points all of them. And so then Russia is free to manipulate and threaten its way back into control of Eastern Europe and and the Balkans. Again, I may be overstating the threat and I would be happy if I were.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:50 pm

While I hope that the initial question was a bit tongue in cheek, I can understand the question. Wars havse started in the past for a lot less. Putin and his puppet have made it clear that the old saying that Russians invented Paranoia is alive and well.

Throughout the 90s I spent years in Russia, and some time in Georgia as well. I like Russians - I really do. There is a pathos to them unlike any other nationality I know. But Russians have often told me that "it is our fate to be ruled by one sort of dictatorship or another".

Georgians, I never much liked. I did not spend a lot of time there, but Georgians always seemed a bit shady to me, and I could never get close.

That said, I have no doubt whatsoever that this little war was engineered in Moscow from start to finish. It is a message to Russia's neighbors - don't you dare think of leaving our circle of influence. After all the assistance we gave Russia in the 90s, it is maddening to think that some Russians, including Putin, still see the West as their enemy.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 28):
You really think it would be tanks and foot soldiers? Hell no. It would be nuclear weapons and we would all die.

Not so black and white. Unlike certain other peoples, the Russians have no wish to die. They won't be so quick to resort to nukes, and neither would the western powers.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 28):
If we can't handle Iraq, we definately can't handle Russia.

The reason Iraq was such a tough nut to crack is that we refused to fight with everything we had. One hand tied behind our back, so to speak. The last war we went all out in was WWII. Some might call it barbaric today, but there is a benefit to blasting an enemy country so completely, signalling to everyone who even thinks of resistance that he can forget it, freeing everyone to pick up the pieces. Nuclear weapons on both sides make that option a highly risky one today. But if we had completely flattened with artillery any town in Iraq where resistance was offered, the war might been over much quicker. The civilians would have quickly realized the danger of sympathizing or helping the insurgents.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:18 pm

Someones still dreaming about hollywood films.....This is real life......
The Russians have the capability to destroy the world,as do a few other nations.

A war between the Two countries would be disaster with no winners.

regds
MEL
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Scotty
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:07 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 57):
The reason Iraq was such a tough nut to crack is that we refused to fight with everything we had. One hand tied behind our back, so to speak. The last war we went all out in was WWII. Some might call it barbaric today, but there is a benefit to blasting an enemy country so completely, signalling to everyone who even thinks of resistance that he can forget it, freeing everyone to pick up the pieces. Nuclear weapons on both sides make that option a highly risky one today. But if we had completely flattened with artillery any town in Iraq where resistance was offered, the war might been over much quicker. The civilians would have quickly realized the danger of sympathizing or helping the insurgents.

Spoken like a true imperialist

I assume you are voicing an opinion and not a belief?
 
SlamClick
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:20 pm

Ain't gonna happen.

Next.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 34):
The world survived the Cold War because those responsible knew perfectly well that an attack would end up in a "nuclear holocaust", followed by a "nuclear winter" killing the world's population - except for perhaps some microbes.

Actually that is the one argument in favor.

"Nuclear winter" would offset global warming and we'd end up with a really nice climate.
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GDB
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:28 pm

While the operation against Georgia, a small, rather militarily feeble state, was only going to go one way, have you seen the Russians on the news, in pics on-line.
The equipment is at best, a generation behind Western kit, often more, they really were T-62 tanks and first generation BMP-1's!
Both of which entered service over 40 years ago.

Putin has been skilled at playing a not very strong hand effectively.
Sure he can threaten energy supplies to Europe, but Russia also has a large degree of economic interdependence with them too.
As this is not the USSR, hermetically sealed from the economic life of the the rest of the world, this is a serious limitation for them.

Putin for sure has played the nationalism/restore Russian pride card, but he also played on his genuine record of starting to reverse the economic disasters of the 1990's.
While there is still a crisis in large parts of rural Russia, with a terrible average male mortality age (58), major Russian cities have come on a great deal.

This of course is fuelled, literally, by fossil fuels.
Saudi Arabia with trees and tundra.
But they are also trying hard to revive other parts of the economy, this being an aviation site, we see this in examples such as Superjet project.
Which has extensive Western components, as well as the skills in production and marketing.
Just one example, but I suspect a typical one across industry.

The lesson Putin no doubt has learned, is that you cannot be a great power, at least for long, without a decent economy.

Russia seems to be going for renewing a sphere of influence on it's Western borders, as well as using what leverage they have internationally, (such as the issue of Iran), to remind the US, EU, NATO, that they are not to be ignored.
Not the same as seeking outright confrontation.

Here is a view from Russia, but not I think a Putin mouthpiece;
http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/600/42/369809.htm

[Edited 2008-08-16 11:54:37]
 
baroque
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:07 pm



Quoting Derico (Reply 41):
Well if so then I guess the northern hemisphere would be off-limits for about 700 to 1500 years....

Alas it seems the cross over between hemispheres is a bit more than was thought when Shute wrote "On the Beach". So IIRC we will be in the soup rather faster than he envisaged.

Quoting GDB (Reply 49):
Writer Paul Kennedy, has this to say on the implications of this conflict;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/16/russia.georgia

To which should be added Paul McGeogh's excellent piece in the SMH for 16 Aug 2008, which as yet does not appear on their website.

Perhaps the US should pay attention to its inflation rate which reached 5.6%, a 17 year high, before it thinks of attacking Russia.

Or alternatively, surely conditions are not so bad in the US that extinction seems a useful option!  eek 
 
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:12 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Thread starter):
Should The US Take Out Russia Military

New Mastercard commercial:

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AGM100 being flamed by the A.net collective: PRICELESS


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AGM100
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:28 pm



Quoting GDB (Reply 61):
The lesson Putin no doubt has learned, is that you cannot be a great power, at least for long, without a decent economy

I agree GDB , but growing a economy requires interaction with foreign investors . At this point the economy is owned by the government .. and controlled by (Putin?). This does not bode well for investment when the government / military / energy department are all wrapped up in one.

Russia will have to liberalize its system ,, and empower its people to grow the economy. I just dont see the answer to their economic problems being to build another huge "tractor factory".



As far as everyone commenting that Iraq has hurt our military ... you are wrong. Our junior and senior officer corps and for that matter our entire military is now well seasoned. Our military has been operating at a "wartime" pace for several years now. This pace is not only important to actual combat operations , but possibly more important to logistical operation as well. Not to mention the advancements in weapons that come along during wartime. Sorry I just dont see Iraq weakening us one bit.
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Blackprojects
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:41 pm

Attacking Russia will lead to the US and Russia Completing the MAD Equation resulting in Both Nations Vanishing off the face of this planet MAD = Mutualy Asured Destruction and leaving such a huge mess that the rest of us would be Turned into Radioactive People for a few weeks and then we would all DIE.


Leaving the Cock Roaches and RAT"s to carry on with out us!


 old 

AGM100 <--What was you thinking when you posted this?
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:49 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 60):
"Nuclear winter" would offset global warming and we'd end up with a really nice climate.

& a much smaller population  wink 

The US are already in problems with involvement with Iraq & Afghanistan to think of a third one.
regds
MEL
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MadameConcorde
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:54 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Thread starter):
Scary times people , what is going to happen .

There is no need to ask. It's already happening:

China to overtake US as largest manufacturer

By Peter Marsh in London
Published: August 10 2008 22:37 | Last updated: August 10 2008 22:37

China is set to overtake the US next year as the world’s largest producer of manufactured goods, four years earlier than expected, as a result of the rapidly weakening US economy.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2aa7a12e-6...f-0000779fd18c.html?nclick_check=1
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AGM100
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:08 pm



Quoting BlackProjects (Reply 65):
What was you thinking when you posted this?

He he ,, well it was on my mind and it never hurts to discuss it I guess. Some on hear of course over react , and take the opportunity to inflate their egos ... but everyone has thought about it I am sure.

So far I have not heard anyone on the news claim .. Un-named sources are encouraging a immediate attack on Russia - Putin responds to online blogger AGM100,,warns of retaliatory strike if he tries anything !
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MaidensGator
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:13 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 67):
There is no need to ask. It's already happening:

China to overtake US as largest manufacturer

All is not utopian in China....

10,000 factories have already gone bust this year in one province, with the number expected to rise to 30,000...

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/...aces-an-industrial-downsizing.html

China should have a big economy, it's got 1.4 billion people, and their standard of living is not nearly that of us in the west...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2008/07/25/AR2008072502255.html


Sure, China has been booming, but all that glitters is not gold...  Cool
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Starlionblue
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:38 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 21):
Their is no way superpowers can maintain the brinkmanship we once had in this day and age. Their are too many fragments of power around the world to go to bi polar existence again.

I don't see it. If we go back to a cold war scenario the world will be pretty much as complex as before. Ok, a few more countries have nukes, and Europe is no longer a bargaining chip in the same way.

I won't join in the name calling. I think the question is fair, if ill argued. However I would suggest reading some history, including the campaigns of Karl XII of Sweden, Napoleon Bonaparte and Adolf Hitler. All three were thwarted by a "weaker" Russia.
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SlamClick
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:49 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 66):
& a much smaller population

That is the other argument in favor.

That I would probably not be part of that populaton is a good argument against for you and me and just about everyone else.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:51 pm



Quoting Scotty (Reply 59):
I assume you are voicing an opinion and not a belief?

Of course it is opinion, which I believe is backed up by historical fact.

Quoting Scotty (Reply 59):
Spoken like a true imperialist

Spoken like someone who needs to pick up a dictionary and read the definition of what 'imperialist' actually means.

Quoting GDB (Reply 61):
Putin has been skilled at playing a not very strong hand effectively.
Sure he can threaten energy supplies to Europe, but Russia also has a large degree of economic interdependence with them too.



Quoting GDB (Reply 61):
Which has extensive Western components, as well as the skills in production and marketing.

Absolutely. Which is why Russia needs to be threatened with elimination from the G8 and the WTO, as well as hint at the reimposition of a ban on certain technology transfers, like jet engine or computer technology.
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GDB
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:30 pm

While there is a high degree of government influence in major strategic industries in Russia, I really see no correlation with the USSR here, where in the words of one of it's citizens, we pretend to work and they pretend to pay us .

Putin I'm sure, does not want to go back to that. A 3rd world nation with a vast military.

Not so long ago,major government influence in these sorts of industries, was normal in the West as well.
To varying degrees, it still is at times.
Though maybe not by some of the methods used in Russia!
 
AGM100
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:58 am



Quoting GDB (Reply 73):
Though maybe not by some of the methods used in Russia!

I have heard it described as a crime syndicate. Putin and his group have many "companies" who work in between the government and industries. Putin himself has the power to use the military or special services to enhance his own entrust and entrust of "the companies". As in the case with Georgia , capturing the last non Russian NG pipe line into Europe. (As I have heard it described).

I know war is always about money and recourse's , Russia just does not have to play by the same rules as everyone else it seems.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:35 am



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 74):
I have heard it described as a crime syndicate. Putin and his group have many "companies" who work in between the government and industries.

Heck, you could describe Japan and Korea like that to a certain extent. Industry controls government.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Blackprojects
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:05 am

After the Olympics buble is over watch what happens to China"s Bubling Economy, As it is going to hit the Buffers as most of the Company"s who have been buying Cheap china goods are now feeling the pinch and demand has slowed down so a lot of them will go under.

One good side effect is the demand for oil will fall off India is not in Recession yet but it will happen, The US is in in now so will be the 1st to leave it whilde the middle east will be the last to Enter it and last to leave it.
 
Scotty
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:57 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 72):
Spoken like someone who needs to pick up a dictionary and read the definition of what 'imperialist' actually means.

"Imperialist - the policy of extending the rule or authority of an empire or nation over foreign countries, or of acquiring and holding colonies and dependencies"

Thats you that is
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:49 pm



Quoting Scotty (Reply 77):
"Imperialist - the policy of extending the rule or authority of an empire or nation over foreign countries, or of acquiring and holding colonies and dependencies"

So what does that have to do with military efficiency? We were talking about how to end a war quickly. Widespread and violent leads to a rapid conclusion, restricted warfare leads to a drawn-out conflict. That's simply military history and logic. Just like shooting an enemy in the head is better than shooting them in the foot.
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planemaker
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:00 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 64):
As far as everyone commenting that Iraq has hurt our military ... you are wrong. Our junior and senior officer corps and for that matter our entire military is now well seasoned. Our military has been operating at a "wartime" pace for several years now. This pace is not only important to actual combat operations , but possibly more important to logistical operation as well. Not to mention the advancements in weapons that come along during wartime. Sorry I just dont see Iraq weakening us one bit.

You are truly over your head on this topic. You obviously have not read anything nor listened to any of the Defense Department Congressional briefings about the depleted state... men and material, of our Armed Forces.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
MaidensGator
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:50 pm



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 79):
you obviously have not read anything nor listened to any of the Defense Department Congressional briefings about the depleted state... men and material, of our Armed Forces.

While I certainly don't agree with anything AGM has posted thus far in this thread, you have to take Defense Department Congressional briefings with a big grain of salt. I don't think the US military has EVER gone to Congress and said there was adequate funding. In peacetime, with the US outspending everyone else put together, the Pentagon still claims it's not enough.
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GDB
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:34 pm

The issue, with the US DoD is not the materials available, it's that in this situation, there is no sensible way, militarily, they could intervene in Georgia, even if they wanted to.
Unless they wanted to escalate to levels of danger apparelled since the worst of the cold war.

If the US military is in any way depleted, the blame lies right at the White House.
For embarking on a foolish, distracting, ultimately costly war of choice in Iraq.
There is nothing that depletes readiness and morale like endless operational tours, for equipment, constant use in harsh environments (i.e. the Mid East).
That does more to affect the military than any defence budget cut that any President with a chance of ever being elected in the first place, could ever do.
 
planemaker
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:35 pm



Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 80):
While I certainly don't agree with anything AGM has posted thus far in this thread, you have to take Defense Department Congressional briefings with a big grain of salt. I don't think the US military has EVER gone to Congress and said there was adequate funding. In peacetime, with the US outspending everyone else put together, the Pentagon still claims it's not enough.

Yes, of course the Pentagon wants every dollar they can their hands on (even when they can't account for billions they have already "spent"...) but the point that has been made independently (and painfully obvious) is the short fall in equipment from the start of the war. Just to get back to where we were at the start of the war is going to cost us trillions of $.

And the tragic, the real tragic part is that we have gained absolutley NOTHING positive as a nation... and a lot of negatives! One could argue that the fiasco of Iraq had a part in embolding Russia to "invade" Georgia.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:59 pm



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 82):
And the tragic, the real tragic part is that we have gained absolutley NOTHING positive as a nation... and a lot of negatives!

Not really. If Saddam were still in power, the sanctions by now would have been lifted, and he would have been enjoying sanction-free $115/barrel prices to rebuild his military and to fund his terrorist friends (remember his highly publicized funding of Palestinian suicide bombers). Finally, we would be faced with two problem nations (Iran and Iraq) instead of one. And don't forget, everyone would still think that Saddam has WMDs hidden somewhere, forgetting that after the lifting of sanctions, he would be free to start again from scratch.

So yes, we have gained something, even if you don't feel it was worth it.

But the main goal was to establish democracy in an Arab country, hoping that it would spread to other Arab countries. Whether that works or not remains to be seen, and we won't see the results for at least another one or two generations.
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A342
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:13 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 83):
If Saddam were still in power, the sanctions by now would have been lifted, and he would have been enjoying sanction-free $115/barrel prices to rebuild his military and to fund his terrorist friends (remember his highly publicized funding of Palestinian suicide bombers). Finally, we would be faced with two problem nations (Iran and Iraq) instead of one. And don't forget, everyone would still think that Saddam has WMDs hidden somewhere, forgetting that after the lifting of sanctions, he would be free to start again from scratch.

Not really. First, it was Saddam who kept Al Qaeda out of Iraq. Second, he was a counterweight to Iran, his traditional enemy. And third, spare us with those WMDs. He had none. Israel took care of that.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 83):
But the main goal was to establish democracy in an Arab country, hoping that it would spread to other Arab countries. Whether that works or not remains to be seen, and we won't see the results for at least another one or two generations.

Yeah, killing tens of thousands and inviting Al Qaeda into the country is a good way to establish a democracy.  Yeah sure
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planemaker
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:32 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 83):
So yes, we have gained something, even if you don't feel it was worth it.

Thanks to A342 for pointing out the hollowness of your post. It is truly a bit sad that you can claim that we gained something... when we have gained absolutely NOTHING and in turn have LOST SO MUCH!

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 83):
But the main goal was to establish democracy in an Arab country, hoping that it would spread to other Arab countries.

Since when do we have the right - legal or moral, to invade a country in the "hope" that democracy might spread to other Arab countries.

At least Iraq was nominally a democracy that went through the sham of voting with a basically secular state... now we've turned it into a hot bed of terrorism with the largest sectarian group aligned with Iran!

And talking of spreading democracy in the middle east... why didn't we invade Saudi Arabia first??? Not only is it not a democracy but women have virtually no rights there! Heck... why start with a small undemocratic country... lets invade commie Vietnam again and finish the job! Heck, what about Cuba... it is right on our doorstep!
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:20 pm



Quoting A342 (Reply 84):
First, it was Saddam who kept Al Qaeda out of Iraq.

Since when was Al Qaeda our only terrorist enemy? Terrorism has been a growing problem since the 70s, while Al Qaeda only popped up in the 90s.

Quoting A342 (Reply 84):
Second, he was a counterweight to Iran, his traditional enemy.

So two wrongs make a right?

Quoting A342 (Reply 84):
Yeah, killing tens of thousands and inviting Al Qaeda into the country is a good way to establish a democracy.

Al Qaeda invited themselves to Iraq, and declared it their central battleground.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 85):
Thanks to A342 for pointing out the hollowness of your post. It is truly a bit sad that you can claim that we gained something... when we have gained absolutely NOTHING and in turn have LOST SO MUCH!

Keep your eyes closed like that and you are bound to break your nose against something, like reality. Of course you don't mind hiding behind those of us who take resonsibilty for our future, rather than simply critisize.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 85):
At least Iraq was nominally a democracy t

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 85):
Since when do we have the right - legal or moral, to invade a country in the "hope" that democracy might spread to other Arab countries.

Based on the 1991 conditional cease fire. He did not meed the conditions, so shooting starts again.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 85):
And talking of spreading democracy in the middle east... why didn't we invade Saudi Arabia first???

I agree Saudi is the biggest problem, but we don't have a conditional cease fire or any other such basis to invoke. Hence part of the reason for Iraq. Will it work? I don't know, but I hope so.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
planemaker
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:27 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 86):
Since when was Al Qaeda our only terrorist enemy? Terrorism has been a growing problem since the 70s, while Al Qaeda only popped up in the 90s.

Al Qaeda is the ONLY terrorist group that has has attacked and killed Americans in the US... and has been the most active against American interests and targets overseas! All the other terrorist groups are peanuts in comparison and are/were driven by local politics whereas Al Qaeda is theologically driven to defeat the "great satan".

The US invasion of Iraq gave Al Qaeda a huge boost around the world and strengthened it!

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 86):
So two wrongs make a right?

Ah... yes... unfortunately that is, and has been, US foreign policy - the enemy of my enemy is my friend! Why do you think that the two Dicks had such nice visits to Iraq in previous administrations!

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 86):
Al Qaeda invited themselves to Iraq, and declared it their central battleground.

The US needlessly CREATED the conditions for Al Qaeda to make it their central battleground. No US invasion... no recruitming poster for terrorists.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 86):
Keep your eyes closed like that and you are bound to break your nose against something, like reality.

Please just keep to facts. You haven't posted a single tangible benefit from our invasion of Iraq... yet ignore all the negatives in "blood and treasure" in addition to our very poor foreign relations. You are the one that is chosing to keep your eyes blind.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 86):
Of course you don't mind hiding behind those of us who take resonsibilty for our future, rather than simply critisize.

Sorry but Iraq has screwed our future (so you are taking reponsibility for that)... and our kids will be paying for it for a long time.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 86):
Based on the 1991 conditional cease fire. He did not meed the conditions, so shooting starts again.

First, your point was: "But the main goal was to establish democracy in an Arab country". So now you contradict yourself. (BTW, the largest Arab country is ALREADY a democracy... and, FYI, a US ally!)

Second, if you knew your history, the invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with the UN sponsored ceasefire of 1991. Bush declared war without a legal basis.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 86):
I agree Saudi is the biggest problem, but we don't have a conditional cease fire or any other such basis to invoke.

As pointed out, your "conditional ceasefire" claim is baseless since it was a UN ceasefire. The US could not unilateraly declare war on Iraq. All we had were just fabricated WMD claims led by Dick that "threatened" the US. Ironic in that he had this to say after the Persian Gulf War why the US didn't go on to Baghdad...

" I would guess if we had gone in there, I would still have forces in Baghdad today. We'd be running the country. We would not have been able to get everybody out and bring everybody home.

And the final point that I think needs to be made is this question of casualties. I don't think you could have done all of that without significant additional U.S. casualties, and while everybody was tremendously impressed with the low cost of the (1991) conflict, for the 146 Americans who were killed in action and for their families, it wasn't a cheap war. And the question in my mind is, how many additional American casualties is Saddam (Hussein) worth? And the answer is, not that damned many.

So, I think we got it right, both when we decided to expel him from Kuwait, but also when the President made the decision that we'd achieved our objectives and we were not going to go get bogged down in the problems of trying to take over and govern Iraq. "
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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czbbflier
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:27 pm

If this post is related to the conflict in Georgia, I suggest that everybody, especially the OP to stop and take a deep breath.

In my opinion, as one with a graduate degree in International Security Policy, one of the most well-respected journalists in realpolitik is Dr Gwynn Dyer. The man is as straight a shooter as they come. Short bio here.

His assessment of the conflict is that it is all Georgia's fault and Mikhail Saakashvili is an idiot to have tried to strong-arm South Ossetia and Abkhazia into being a part of Georgia, and that all this is going to blow over. Russia was merely responding to a surprise attack.

Have a read of these two articles. I find them quite reassuring that we're not headed for the Cold-war bunkers.

http://www.straight.com/article-1572...onumental-miscalculation-georgia?#
http://www.straight.com/article-1581...-war-not-coming-back-over-georgia?

As for the premise of the post, should the US knock out the Russian military? Such hubristic sabre-rattling would be laughable if it weren't so scary- or even plausible if we were to have another 8 years of Bush-like vigilantism.
 
MD-90
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:38 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 51):
Yes but my dog could kick that penguins ass ... Man that is one big penguin though !

Now that is an American statement right there. My ______ can kick your ______'s ass, but man I admire that sheer size/beauty/majesty/speed of ______.
 
GDB
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:43 pm

There is another limit to US power, in a large, prolonged, but conventional weapons only conflict.
(If this would ever be possible in the case of Russia).

I've alluded to the strains the deployment of large scale forces to Iraq, over 5 years, has created.
(And there were nowhere near enough boots on the ground just after the invasion and for years afterwards, a factor in the entry of outside terrorists and the domestic anti Western groups).

Something bigger than Iraq, that went on for a long period, would need some sort of Draft to be re-introduced.
That is pure political poison in domestic US politics.
Given that the territorial integrity of the Continental US is not going to be under threat from an enemy army.

Now the size, range, reach, technology available to the US, makes that sort of situation unlikely.
'Silver Bullet' technology like stealth, the Carrier Battle Groups, command and control networks, satellites for spying and communications, the reach of what used to be Strategic Air Command assets.
But, consider how Cheney, in the quote posted in the thread above, was largely responsible for a complete about face on Iraq less than a decade after that quote.
So never say never.

Russia, does not have that problem, there was wide public disenchantment as the 1980's Afghan War rumbled on, not that any ballot box could change that in the Soviet Union.
But that was also about the crumbling economic conditions in the USSR too.
Military service, though not popular and often brutal, is embedded into the national psyche.

We have seen how wide public disenchantment over Iraq, did in time embed itself with the US public, a public used to short, sharp conflicts over the previous 15 years.
The US public today, though generally more patriotic, in the sense of supporting their military, than many of it's NATO allies, this is in the contest of an all volunteer military.

Though it's hard to envisage a full scale, extended slug-fest with Russia, or anyone else, who knows what lies around the corner?
 
planemaker
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:00 pm



Quoting GDB (Reply 90):
But, consider how Cheney, in the quote posted in the thread above, was largely responsible for a complete about face on Iraq less than a decade after that quote.
So never say never.

Here is the link to the CSpan interview...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w75ctsv2oPU
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:06 pm



Quoting GDB (Reply 90):
But, consider how Cheney, in the quote posted in the thread above, was largely responsible for a complete about face on Iraq less than a decade after that quote.

That quote is indeed telling. Between 1991 and 2003, something changed. In 1991, we all believed that Saddam was finished, that he would likely be overthrown, or that at least the UN would be able to effectively and verifiably disarm him. But by the end of the 90s, it became clear that Saddam was playing with the UN inspector teams, and Saddam ruthlessly eliminated any challengers. In addition, you had the sanctions which were about to fall apart, leaving Saddam free to start his crap all over again.

Getting back to Georgia, I see no reason why the US needs to get involved militarily. Georgia was not a part of NATO or any other alliance. But that does not mean we should lay back and say it's not our problem.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:32 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 92):
Between 1991 and 2003, something changed.

Ya... things did change.

Dick went to work at Halliburton until Bush asked him to be his running mate and Halliburton paid Dick a $34-million "retirement package". According to MSN Money, from just 2003-2006 alone, Halliburton bilked government agencies $17.2 billion in Iraq war-related revenue. Ya... things sure changed!
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Flighty
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:33 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 92):
Between 1991 and 2003, something changed. In 1991, we all believed that Saddam was finished, that he would likely be overthrown, or that at least the UN would be able to effectively and verifiably disarm him. But by the end of the 90s, it became clear that Saddam was playing with the UN inspector teams, and Saddam ruthlessly eliminated any challengers. In addition, you had the sanctions which were about to fall apart, leaving Saddam free to start his crap all over again.

I hope you aren't saying the above points justified an invasion of Iraq and execution of its leaders by the United States? .... and countless civilian deaths, not to mention our soldiers?

Just because things change over time doesn't need we need to make asses of ourselves... however....

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 92):
Getting back to Georgia, I see no reason why the US needs to get involved militarily. Georgia was not a part of NATO or any other alliance. But that does not mean we should lay back and say it's not our problem.

I agree completely with this.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:47 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Thread starter):
Scary times people , what is going to happen .

Putin is an ex-KGB spymaster, and a robber-baron billionaire Stalinist thug in my opinion. He's thoroughly oppressive and corrupt - as are many people at the highest levels of the Russian government and military. Comrade Putin wants to control all of the natural gas and oil flowing from the former Soviet republics to Europe because he wants to be able to economically blackmail European nations for his own purposes - period. He's already done this crap to Ukraine and the Czech Republic - he sees it as a viable option in dealing with countries he's unhappy with for their diplomatic and security relations with the EU or the U.S.

The U.S. doesn't need to take out the Russian military, but the citizens of Russia need to vote the corrupt, power-mad, and oppressive Vladimir Putin (and his little puppet Medvedev) out of office - before Russia ends up economically and diplomatically isolated... again.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
GDB
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:47 pm

Even did Georgia had been successful in it's NATO application a few months ago, I've a feeling that Russia would never have allowed it.
That is, this situation with S.Ossetia, a powder keg anyway, would have been 'resolved' by Russia in the way we've seen, well before Georgia ever actually joined that alliance.
They would not have become NATO members for some time anyway, certainly not overnight.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:59 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 92):
Between 1991 and 2003, something changed.

Looks like change only happened in some people's mind, because what Cheney said then is right on the money to what is happening now since 2003.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. Unbelievable.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
baroque
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:29 am



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 85):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 83):
So yes, we have gained something, even if you don't feel it was worth it.

Thanks to A342 for pointing out the hollowness of your post. It is truly a bit sad that you can claim that we gained something... when we have gained absolutely NOTHING and in turn have LOST SO MUCH!

 checkmark  Thousands of dead Iraqis is a bit on the conservative side???!!!! And always, the 2 million external refugees and about 2 million internal refugees. The toll from that exodus will be paid for many a generation.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 87):
Sorry but Iraq has screwed our future (so you are taking responsibility for that)... and our kids will be paying for it for a long time.

And for those into irony, a goodly part of that "paying" will be going to the Chinese.

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 89):
Now that is an American statement right there. My ______ can kick your ______'s ass, but man I admire that sheer size/beauty/majesty/speed of ______.

True but happily while it is a mode, it is not the only view that comes from that society. It is always a source of wonder that the US can at the same time source the most crass and the most finely nuanced of sensible comment. I think that the latter group are always aware of the first, but does the first group even know the second one exists? That is a question in search of an answer MD.

One of my most lasting impressions of life in the US was the monthly visits (and lectures) to the institute where I worked by folk who must have been CIA, but went under the name of some Government information service!! They provided background on wherever, and years later, those backgrounds were proved remarkably accurate and insightful. Makes you wonder not so much what happened to the CIA in this century but rather what happened to its information reporting system.

I would be surprised if the current blow up in Georgia took CIA by surprise. It may well have taken George by surprise, however, nothing there will surprise by now!

There does seem to be a disconnect between what the CIA can anticipate and what the G of USA is willing or able to do to ameliorate the predicted happenings.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:24 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 83):
But the main goal was to establish democracy in an Arab country, hoping that it would spread to other Arab countries. Whether that works or not remains to be seen, and we won't see the results for at least another one or two generations.

You have it right that one has to wait a long time for results. This is my main gripe with the aftermath of the Iraq War. Why is the US in such a hurry to get out? Yes I know. "Politics". There is this illusion of a "low cost, low impact" war. We get in, solve the problem, institute democracy and freedom, then get out. "And the troops will be home for Christmas."

If the problem is to be solved the US shouldn't be using seagull foreign intervention (fly in, make lots of noise, poo all over the place, leave). One big reason some ex-colonies do better than others is because the colonists built a resilient infrastructure that could stand on its own after the colonists left. Take India vs. the Congo... I know that there are many other factors involved. My point is that, since the war can't be undone, the US should commit to safeguard Iraq's internal and external security for two decades at least, or it will potentially just become an even worse chaotic mess or factional fighting and terrorist training.

It takes a generation to change the mindset of people. Let's face it, if you told the (mainland) Chinese that the political system was all changed and they now had freedom of expression and self-rule in the American/Western European style, they wouldn't know what to do with that. It's like giving a car to someone who has never driven one. If they try driving it they will likely break themselves, the car and any innocent bystanders.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo

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