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solnabo
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:00 am

I would love to write him a letter saying:

Enough Bush
Stop using Europe as a
playground for your sick
wargames

He´ll be gone soon and vote for Barack Obama, pleaseeeee.

//Micke  pray 
 
baroque
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:59 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 99):
If the problem is to be solved the US shouldn't be using seagull foreign intervention (fly in, make lots of noise, poo all over the place, leave). One big reason some ex-colonies do better than others is because the colonists built a resilient infrastructure that could stand on its own after the colonists left. Take India vs. the Congo..

 rotfl  Wow, count down the minutes to one furious response - although I have to say he has been quiet of late.

How did you know we have trouble with itinerant seagulls round here anyway??
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:24 am

)

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 83):
(remember his highly publicized funding of Palestinian suicide bombers)

Wich is no worse than the heavely backed Israeli war machine by the USA. Your point ?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 83):
But the main goal was to establish democracy in an Arab country, hoping that it would spread to other Arab countries.

Man, that's naive...

Democracy is not something you can force on a nation using a military machine. People respond very badly to the barrel of a gun. It has to come from within. They have to find it out for themselves.
 
sv7887
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:48 pm



Quoting Solnabo (Reply 100):
He´ll be gone soon and vote for Barack Obama, pleaseeeee.

The same guy who advocates attacking Pakistan without their permission? Good luck considering Musharaff is on his way out...

Let's face it, neither McCain or Obama has what it takes to deal with the sheer number of problems facing the US at the moment.

With an inept and corrupt Congress nothing is going to get done until we have some serious reforms in this country. It is getting embarrassing how incompetent the leadership is here.

Until Americans as a whole start voting these bums out, nothing will change. But as long as we pay more attention to American Idol, spending money we don't have, and blaming immigrants or Big Business for all our problems nothing will change.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 99):
My point is that, since the war can't be undone, the US should commit to safeguard Iraq's internal and external security for two decades at least, or it will potentially just become an even worse chaotic mess or factional fighting and terrorist training.

This is the point honestly that most Americans don't get and I am really glad you do get it!...In America people are addicted to "Buy Now Pay Later" There is just no long term planning on any level.

People bought into the "We'll be in and out in a jiffy" because that's the American way.

It shows up all aspects of society here, especially financial. That's how we got into the housing mess. People think, "oh I'll borrow today, and the price will go up" with zero contingency plans. I STILL hear people taking about taking a second mortgage on their house to pay for a new kitchen or car!!! There is no sense for planning for retirement. People think I am crazy for maxing out on my 401K every year and saving as compulsively as I do.

You see it in parenting styles, people here work 70 hrs a week make a ton of money and suddenly wonder why their kids are performing poorly in schools and taking to drugs...So the end result is the parents are millionaires but the children are idiots since they never had to work for anything and think everything just magically appears on the dinner table.

Then they sit around wondering "What happened, didn't I give them anything they wanted?" and don't realize that was precisely the problem! (I hear my co-workers saying these things every day)

The Iraq story is no different. People who want us to withdraw in Iraq don't see the big picture. Fine the war was a bad idea, but hindsight is 20/20.

We didn't handle Iraq properly in 1991, and it became a much bigger problem. I personally think George Bush I made the right call. He had the foresight to see what Iraq would become.

But Iraq remained a campaign issue. He was attacked for "not finishing the job" And the anti-Iraq rhetoric continued in the Clinton administration who attacked Iraq and called for regime change with the same WMD charge. By the end of his term, we'd attacked Iraq in Operation Desert Fox and were conducting almost daily airstrikes.

Bush invaded Iraq on the carte blanche the world gave him after 9/11, with a craven Congress and Press unwilling to take on a popular President. The Checks and balances of this country failed in this case.

Perhaps with Cheney's influence blindly drove into Iraq without a strategy, a coalition, or any idea of what he was getting himself into.

Quoting GDB (Reply 90):
Something bigger than Iraq, that went on for a long period, would need some sort of Draft to be re-introduced.
That is pure political poison in domestic US politics.

This is the key..The military does not want draftees to begin with and their ability to start wars is limited by the Armed Forces they have.

Quoting GDB (Reply 90):
Russia, does not have that problem, there was wide public disenchantment as the 1980's Afghan War rumbled on, not that any ballot box could change that in the Soviet Union.
But that was also about the crumbling economic conditions in the USSR too.
Military service, though not popular and often brutal, is embedded into the national psyche.

This is what people fail to realize. At the end of the day Comrade Putin has a country to rebuild. His popular support is tied to the economic renaissance that was ongoing there.

With slowing GDP growth, rising inflation, and falling commodity prices, he's got more to worry about than knocking off more Eastern European states.

Money talks at the end of the day. The Russians for all their bluster know this. They aren't going to risk their economic health to pursue a campaign of aggressive expansion.
 
planemaker
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:12 pm



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 103):
Money talks at the end of the day. The Russians for all their bluster know this. They aren't going to risk their economic health to pursue a campaign of aggressive expansion.

That is right, Russia does not want to risk their economic health... and that is why they took action against Georgia. Russia does not want to pursue physical expansion... they want the former Soviet states... the "near-abroad", to remain under the Russian sphere of influence... and not NATO´s (read the USA). Georgia, as a transit point for non-Russian oil and gas to the west, has threatened Russia strategic interests... "money talks at the end of the day", as you put it. Gerogia was incredibly stupid to have baited Russia.
 
StarAC17
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:15 pm



Quoting Solnabo (Reply 100):
He´ll be gone soon and vote for Barack Obama, pleaseeeee.

As much as me as well as most of the International community wants him elected I don't think he will be because the American people will not be willing to take a risk on him and that is their decision and we have to live with it.

However I do think that John McCain will be far better with foreign policy that Bush has been.
 
planemaker
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:31 pm



Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 105):
However I do think that John McCain will be far better with foreign policy that Bush has been.

Yes, he's far more pragmatic and less of an idealogue than Bush... but right now he still has to pander to the Republican base for election support... but if he gets elected he'll tack back to the "center".
 
StarAC17
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:27 pm



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 106):
Yes, he's far more pragmatic and less of an idealogue than Bush... but right now he still has to pander to the Republican base for election support... but if he gets elected he'll tack back to the "center".

While I think he will win this election as of right now, the fact that he is pandering to the far right is what what will make a good portion of moderates vote for Obama over McCain.
 
RJ100
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:58 pm

I think you all eat this soup a bit too hot. Russia is not going to attack anyone and they are no danger for anyone. Russia has a lot of own problems and they gain nothing from taking over places such as Georgia, the Baltic states, Ukraine etc. If you look at problems Russia has even in places such as Moscow and St. Petersburg, I can hardly believe they want to receive regions such as South Ossetia...they simply have no profit from that.
The case with South Ossetia and Abchasia is that the people there face systematic discrimination from Georgia, hell they aren't even Georgians. The regions in Ossetia and Abchasia are wonderful and at least Abchasia is still popular with tourists from Russia. Still, Georgia forbids that people in South Ossetia and Abchasia build their infrastructure. Russian business men are not allowed to build hotels etc. In other words: Georgia takes away all possibilities for the local people to receive an income and they wonder why South Ossetia and Abchasia don't want to have something to do with Georgia. Fact is also that the majority of people in Zhinvali are Russian citizens. In the moment when Georgia starts to kill Russian civilian people, Russia needs to act and I completely agree that they forced back Georgian military. You are correct, it doesn't give them the right to stay in Georgia now but this problem seems to get solved now.
I don't believe we will see a cold war soon again, Russia needs the world and the world needs Russia. If I go to the local supermarket here in St. Petersburg the majority of products are still from foreign countries. Hell, I even have problems to find Russian produced butter (all imported from Finland). On the other side the world needs Russia...they buy our products more and more, massive investions are made in all of Russia for billions and billions and a good part flows directly into European/American/Asian economy.

The events make me very sad at the moment. We also forget about the real victims again. Did Europe and America care about the fatal conditions of living in Ossetia before the conflict became "politic"? We should rather invest our energy to reduce real problems in such regions. But Im sure everyone again forgets about it as soon as the politicians find another place to play. Im including Russia here as well, they will forget about people of Ossetia again like all other nations too.
As for Saakaschwili, for me this man should be sent to Den Haag. Whatever the status of South Ossetia is, someone who decides to fire of rockets into a city like Zhinvali, belongs to prison.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:09 pm



Quoting RJ100 (Reply 108):
I think you all eat this soup a bit too hot. Russia is not going to attack anyone and they are no danger for anyone.

Jeezus, RJ... This has been going on just to the south of you.

 
RJ100
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:37 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 109):
Jeezus, RJ... This has been going on just to the south of you.

There is however a difference between attacking peaceful countries such as Estonia, Latvia or Ukraine and the conflict in South Ossetia that was started by Georgia.
 
Flighty
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:48 pm

A friend of mine who just got his PhD in history (Modern Eastern Europe) assured me that the Georgians were actually way faulty and to blame for this whole mess. He is not a Russian but a Kazakh, for what it is worth.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 108):
Russian business men are not allowed to build hotels etc.

Oh, Georgia was giving the plutocrats trouble, why didn't ya say so.... you know, when Las Vegas authorities gave the American Mafia trouble over building hotels in the 1950s-60s, they were found (dead) in the most surprising and amusing of places. Maybe this is no different.
 
RJ100
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:11 pm



Quoting Flighty (Reply 111):
Oh, Georgia was giving the plutocrats trouble, why didn't ya say so.... you know, when Las Vegas authorities gave the American Mafia trouble over building hotels in the 1950s-60s, they were found (dead) in the most surprising and amusing of places. Maybe this is no different.

To fight back mafia is alright. But then Georgia needs to build up infrastrucure there. You cannot leave the people with no work and infrastructure and then complain about illegal business. I doubt that Russia will care about people in South Ossetia but they dont belong to Georgia- and certainly they cannot be forced to stay in Georgia by military. Saakaschwili is nuts to believe he can bomb South Ossetia, kill thousands there, and then all of a sudden they want to stay in Georgia? I feel sorry for the people in Georgia too. They took boys out of offices and universities only to send them to lose their lives against an enemy they cannot beat. Saakaschwili is no better than Karadzic.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:30 am



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 103):

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 99):
My point is that, since the war can't be undone, the US should commit to safeguard Iraq's internal and external security for two decades at least, or it will potentially just become an even worse chaotic mess or factional fighting and terrorist training.

This is the point honestly that most Americans don't get and I am really glad you do get it!.

Thank you. But it's hardly rocket science. The most cursory knowledge of history coupled with a little basic analysis leads me to this obvious conclusion. My question is why more people don't get it.

I have observed the same child rearing myopia you have. Some people seem unable to plan for the future. They simply cannot understand how their actions today will affect their children for years and decades to come. Then they are baffled at how our kids (3 and 1½) are cheerful, smiling, well behaved and helpful (for their age) while their own are whiny little pests. If they can't even handle their own children, how could they possibly wrap their heads around international politics, even at the most basic level?

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 108):
I think you all eat this soup a bit too hot. Russia is not going to attack anyone and they are no danger for anyone. Russia has a lot of own problems and they gain nothing from taking over places such as Georgia, the Baltic states, Ukraine etc. If you look at problems Russia has even in places such as Moscow and St. Petersburg, I can hardly believe they want to receive regions such as South Ossetia...they simply have no profit from that.

Your analysis is helpful and, I believe, quite accurate with current information. Time will tell what the fallout will really be.

Having said that, history is full of countries intervening for the "safety of their own population". Just look at the prelude to WWII, with the annexation of the Sudetenland. Before you flame me, I am well aware that the long term motivations are probably different. I'm not saying Russia has a long term expansion strategy like Germany did. It seems pretty unlikely. But I think it is understandable that many people are concerned. The press, as usual, isn't helping.

Things that are blindingly obvious in hindsight tend to be muddled in the present. We'll have to wait years to find out what the real effects of this conflict are.
 
Flighty
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:10 am



Quoting RJ100 (Reply 112):
and certainly they cannot be forced to stay in Georgia by military. Saakaschwili is nuts to believe he can bomb South Ossetia, kill thousands there, and then all of a sudden they want to stay in Georgia?

I suppose you would say the same about Russia's enforcements in Chechnya right?  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure


Here in the USA we have quite a lot of sympathy for federal crackdowns within borders. While China's Tibet and Russia's Chechnya actions are disturbing, they are well within these federal powers' territorial rights. Indeed the typical American would argue Georgia does have the right to crack down in South Ossetia, even if it does mean killing all resisters. After all, we had our "Civil War" in the USA from 1861-1865, in which separatist rebels were slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands. And we are very glad it was a success.

It is the height of irony for Russia to take one side on Chechnya, then say the complete opposite when it comes to South Ossetia. In both cases, the goal is not principle but simply the glorification of Russia.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:56 am



Quoting Flighty (Reply 114):
It is the height of irony for Russia to take one side on Chechnya, then say the complete opposite when it comes to South Ossetia. In both cases, the goal is not principle but simply the glorification of Russia.

Not the glorification of Russia, but the leverage of Russia. Putin dream is control of the natural gas and oil flowing from the former Soviet republics to Europe because he wants to be able to economically blackmail European nations. Why? Because he's afraid that he's being surrounded by NATO and that NATO is going to invade Russia for her energy resources.

So, in his paranoia, Putin has temporarily cut-off gas flow to Ukraine and the Czech Republic - just long enough to cause social and economic chaos in these nations and to firmly exert Russia's economic might. Putin sees energy blackmail as a option in dealing with countries he's unhappy with for their diplomatic and security relations with the EU and NATO.

But this policy appears to be backfiring on Putin - ex-Soviet bloc countries now fear Russian bullying and are running into the arms (literally and figuratively) of the West. Poland's government has agreed within the past week to install a ballistic missile interceptor base that they previously hesitated to authorize. Why? Because the Poles have seen the Russian government overstep their "peacekeeping" authority and destroy Georgia.

What was Russia's response to the Poles actions? It was this -

"Poland, by deploying (the system) is exposing itself to a (nuclear) strike — 100 percent."

Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26203430/

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 112):
Saakaschwili is no better than Karadzic.

And Putin and Medvedev are no better than then their historical counterparts - Stalin and Beria. RJ, please understand what Putin is doing and why - it is his control of Russia's energy resources that's making him and his thug cronies personally rich beyond all imagination. We're in the process of voting the damn neo-conservatives out of power here in the U.S. for their lies and the underhanded way they've gotten us into a civil war in Iraq and other places. The Russian citizens now must reach deep inside and stop Putin's charade of representative democracy - immediately!  yes 
 
baroque
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:03 am



Quoting RJ100 (Reply 108):
Saakaschwili

Interesting post and nice to see it from a different side of what has become a multisided fence - new invention!!

I do especially like your version of Saakaschwili. As there have been references to the follies at the start of WWI perhaps it could be hyphenated to Saakasch- willy?
 
Alias1024
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:11 am



Quoting AGM100 (Thread starter):
Arguments

1. Hit them now on a strategic level ... now is the time to do it while Russia's military is not on par with us and the west.

2. Evidently Russia is not afraid of a new cold war Weaken them now before they can commit full industrial weight behind the effort.

3. A strike against them now will help collate the former republics allied against Russia.

4 . If we wait , Russia will grow stronger from this adventure.

5. WWIII now ? or when they become even more powerful .


Scary times people , what is going to happen .

 
RJ100
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:29 am



Quoting Flighty (Reply 114):
I suppose you would say the same about Russia's enforcements in Chechnya right?

The situation in Chechnya is a bit different although the Russian behaviour there was certainly not correct in my opinion. In Chechnya, Dagestan and Ingushetia there is a strong influence of radical islamism from fundamental Arabic countries. The people who support Chechnya separatists are for example Wahhabits from Saudi-Arabia who are famous for public executions (stoning), they forbid that women can go outside with other men, who do not allow women to drive and who are against freedom of religion in any case. The goal is to build up a radical islamist country that consists of all of the Caucasus. And now don't tell me that is what the USA wants. Believe me, there is a reason why these people are top rated on US (!) terrorist lists.
Another difference between South Ossetia-Georgia and Russia-Chechnya is that Chechnya is allowed to decide by themselves in certain cases, they have their own parliament. Also Russia is at least giving essential infrastructure to Chechnya. In fact, Chechnya isn't that bad at the moment. They received a new airport and other infrastructure, have universities, schools and other institutes and the relations with Moscow are quite good too at the moment. Here in St. Petersburg we have a lot of Chechen people too and one of my friends is too. She has finished university by now. Chechen people today face no discrimination in Russia, that's the big difference between Osset people in Georgia.
 
AGM100
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:35 pm

[

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 96):
The U.S. doesn't need to take out the Russian military, but the citizens of Russia need to vote the corrupt, power-mad, and oppressive Vladimir Putin (and his little puppet Medvedev) out of office - before Russia ends up economically and diplomatically isolated... again.

Many good points made on this thread , I have enjoyed reading all the comments (mostly). I may say the comment above is the best IMO.

Sadly history proves that this may be the least likely scenario to happen in Russia . I am certainly not a expert on Russia , but from my knowledge ..democracy really never has worked their. It seems to me that the Russian people have been under the thumb of one strong man,politoboro or monarchy for hundreds of years.

Despite the trashing , I am glad I posted it .. it brought attention to the subject.
 
wardialer
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:45 pm

I think first of all our current job IS NOT complete...And thats catching BIn Laden who murdered 3000 innocent people...I mean come on...What did Russia do to the USA compared to Al Quaeda???

Give me a brake...

Al quaeda has been out there for many years blowing themselves up killing innocent people pretty much all aroung the Mid East, Europe (not to mention the train bombings in Madrid)...
And Africa...

The good thing about the Russians, that there not quite as fanatic as al qaeda is when is comes to war.
 
pnqiad
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:00 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Thread starter):
Arguments

1. Hit them now on a strategic level ... now is the time to do it while Russia's military is not on par with us and the west.

2. Evidently Russia is not afraid of a new cold war Weaken them now before they can commit full industrial weight behind the effort.

3. A strike against them now will help collate the former republics allied against Russia.

4 . If we wait , Russia will grow stronger from this adventure.

5. WWIII now ? or when they become even more powerful .


Scary times people , what is going to happen .

Is this Dick Cheney in disguise on A.net?
 
Flighty
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:08 pm



Quoting Wardialer (Reply 120):
And thats catching BIn Laden who murdered 3000 innocent people...I mean come on...What did Russia do to the USA compared to Al Quaeda???

Job 1 is always keeping peace with Russia and China. A world where Al Qaeda is our only real problem is a happy, happy world. Al Qaeda isn't anything important compared to an angry Russia or China. We must always place them first. So Al Qaeda kills a few hundred people now and then, it's really nothing compared to the Cold War nightmare scenarios of 1960-1983. We must never go back to that.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:01 am



Quoting Wardialer (Reply 120):
I think first of all our current job IS NOT complete...And thats catching BIn Laden who murdered 3000 innocent people...I mean come on...What did Russia do to the USA compared to Al Quaeda???

Islamist terrorists are an infinitesimal threat compared to what Russia and China have the potential to be.

As Flighty says, the cold war was quite a bit more nightmarish than all Al Qaeda activity put together. Ask your grandparents if they are more afraid now of a bombing than they were then of nuclear holocaust.


I'm not saying that Islamist terrorists should be written off as a non-threat, simply that they are not, at this point, a huge threat to the West's continued existence as a society. We must not let the terrorists win by changing entirely in response to them, with our societies becoming as authoritarian in reflection as they want theirs to be.

Irish terrorists, who were a menace for decades, did not threaten the fabric of British society. This was partly due to the fact that they were not treated as the nemesis of British society. They were a terrible nuisance but never a problem on the scale of potential German invasion during WWII. Al Qaeda, while formidable and "evil", will not bring the Western way of life crashing down in ruins, no matter how much the threat is hyped up.

Compare to the Soviet Union and its satellites, who in their day threatened human civilization with total extinction. That's a threat.
 
F9Animal
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:28 am

Russia is no laughing matter, and certainly not a country to "go after". It would certainly create WWIII, and it would be one huge mistake. I think we can keep peace between the US and Russia. That really is the only option.
 
baroque
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:34 am



Quoting PNQIAD (Reply 121):
Is this Dick Cheney in disguise on A.net?

Nah. Dickless will get arrested before he gets to Russia for war crimes so he would never be wanting to try to get there.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:12 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Thread starter):
Scary times people , what is going to happen .

I don't think it's that scary at all. Just a little regional matter which will fizzle out over time. While Russia did seem to be keen to provoke Saakashvili into a reaction, you have to realise that Russia is seeing its satellite states and sphere of influence shrinking rapidly ever since the break-up of the Soviet Union. So it's no surprise that they are trigger-happy. If you were to reverse the situation, how would the US or the EU react if Russia was gaining influence and making its presence felt in their former territories? There would be outrage, and no doubt calls for retaliation.

And remember, with Kosovo gaining independence, you can't really blame the Russians for thinking this was a green light for South Ossetia and Abkhazia to secede from Georgia.

So you can't really lump all the blame on the Russians. This is a case of cause and effect. With Putin still calling the shots in Russia, it is a bad time for Nato to start moving-in on its former satellites. What the rush was I don't know. These things are probably better done over decades rather than years.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:41 pm



Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 126):
And remember, with Kosovo gaining independence, you can't really blame the Russians for thinking this was a green light for South Ossetia and Abkhazia to secede from Georgia.

So does this mean it would be OK to help out the Chechens (if we were interested to)?
 
Flighty
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:48 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 127):

So does this mean it would be OK to help out the Chechens (if we were interested to)?

And what about the Tibetans?

Perhaps a new Al Qaeda state formed in Pakistan?
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:59 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 127):
So does this mean it would be OK to help out the Chechens (if we were interested to)?

I'm not advocating anything. I was just pointing out that we can't really complain if South Ossetia and Abkhazia want to secede, when we've already given the nod to Kosovo.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:07 pm



Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 129):
I'm not advocating anything. I was just pointing out that we can't really complain if South Ossetia and Abkhazia want to secede, when we've already given the nod to Kosovo.

I find it funny how I hear this argument (and the one comparing Georgia to Iraq) from the same people who accuse conservatives of seeing the world in black & white.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:45 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 130):
I find it funny how I hear this argument (and the one comparing Georgia to Iraq) from the same people who accuse conservatives of seeing the world in black & white.

Maybe I should have worded it better. Like I said, I'm not advocating anything: but if the Russians want to see it as a black and white situation we in the West can't really complain if they do. We're quite capable of that ourselves too.
 
pilotntrng
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:13 pm

When the hell did Canada become Pro-Russia?
 
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czbbflier
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:22 am



Quoting PilotNTrng (Reply 132):
When the hell did Canada become Pro-Russia?

Where is this coming from? My post from earlier (Reply 88)?
 
baroque
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Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:48 am



Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 131):
Maybe I should have worded it better. Like I said, I'm not advocating anything: but if the Russians want to see it as a black and white situation we in the West can't really complain if they do. We're quite capable of that ourselves too.

Or maybe it was already clear to those who expect nuanced contributions and are in more difficulty when confronted with B&W images that discard most of the useful information?  thumbsup 
 
Scotty
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Joined: Thu Dec 23, 1999 10:51 pm

RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:02 am



Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 129):
I'm not advocating anything. I was just pointing out that we can't really complain if South Ossetia and Abkhazia want to secede, when we've already given the nod to Kosovo.

You got it.

The west and the US in particular have to start understanding that unlike in Kosovo there is near unanimty in Abkhazia and South Ossetia for independence.

I wonder - if South Ossetia becomes independent would North Ossetia want to secede from Russia and join with South Ossetia in a single state?

And how would Russia repond to that?
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:59 am



Quoting RJ100 (Reply 108):
Russia is not going to attack anyone and they are no danger for anyone.

 Yeah sure And you gained that "wisdom" from your Russian girl??? The fact that Russia has plenty of its own problems obviously doesn't prevent them in engaging in Soviet-style interfering with countries unfortunate enough to be in what they consider a "near abroad".

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 110):
There is however a difference between attacking peaceful countries such as Estonia, Latvia or Ukraine and the conflict in South Ossetia that was started by Georgia.

Oh really? Had Latvia or Estonia not been in NATO what the chances would be the Russians would not hesitate to use the same pretext they used with Georgia? "Protection" of its citizens in fmr. Soviet republics who ended up there through massive russification of conquered territories.
 
OlegShv
Posts: 604
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:58 pm



Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 136):
Oh really? Had Latvia or Estonia not been in NATO what the chances would be the Russians would not hesitate to use the same pretext they used with Georgia? "Protection" of its citizens in fmr. Soviet republics who ended up there through massive russification of conquered territories.

Chances are slim to nothing, unless Estonia and Latvia will start shelling Russian citizens with MLRS.
 
Scotty
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:27 pm



Quoting OlegShv (Reply 137):
Chances are slim to nothing, unless Estonia and Latvia will start shelling Russian citizens with MLRS

Is Misha Saakashvilli now in Estonia????
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:50 am

Some interesting opinion from a man who has clearly a very qualified background..

"....The former head of the planning staff at the German Defense Ministry, Ulrich Weisser on Wednesday lashed out at US policy in East Europe and the Caucasus region.


"The development in Georgia shows clearly the fateful consequences of an American policy which have been directed for quite some time at strengthening its own sphere of influence in Eastern Europe and Asia without taking into account Russian sensitivities," Weisser wrote in a commentary for the Cologne-based daily Koelner Stadt-Anzeiger.

The retired vice-admiral added that the recent Georgian military initiative in South Ossetia could "not have taken place without the knowledge of the American government."

Weisser warned NATO of an imminent "dangerous confrontation with Russia", if Georgia becomes a member of the western military pact without resolving its territorial problems. .."

Weisser stated that USA and Poland are driving more and more into a confrontation with Russia,neglecting the Russia-Nato forum ,which has been set up precisely to solve crisis-situations.
The trigger for the deteriorating relation with Russia-Georgia- is out of proportion to the windfall-damages resulting from a broken relation between East and West.MOst german and French Politicians are extremely weary about the direction NATO is moving. The influence of Poland and the Baltic-states is being considered over-proportionally to their importance.
 
baroque
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:43 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 139):
Weisser stated that USA and Poland are driving more and more into a confrontation with Russia,neglecting the Russia-Nato forum ,which has been set up precisely to solve crisis-situations.

Roll on the end of January 2009 - I hope!
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:34 pm

Onwe thing some people seem to misunderstand is that NATO is a defense pact against current agression and not some means to get revenge for wrongs in the past.

Jan
 
JAL
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:37 pm

The US would be crazy to think they can take out the Russian Military without taking heavy casualties plus this is an election year!

In any case any Western Military action could lead to a Third World War.
 
sbworcs
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:20 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 51):
Putin will surely use Iran to antagonize us ,

And you are sure of this how? No one can know with certainty what will happen in the futre APART from the fact that any war with Russia will mean the rest of the world will now what Hiroshima felt like but only several times worse and who in their right mind wants that!
 
LH648
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:55 am

And who is more aggressive?
Russia, responding to murder of it's peacekeeping forces, or topicstarter, calling to fight against Russia?

Just imagine that Cubans attacked Guantanamo. There will be no Cuba in couple of the days.
 
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keesje
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:41 am



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 21):
Their will be a military confrontation between us and the Russians . Its now or its with your children.

seem like good old fifties cold war thoughts, but people were less informed then..

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 24):
The US hasn't been beaten militarily in Iraq, it has been defeated politically. You can spin that as much as you like, but ask Mutaqda Al Sadr how well Americans fight.

I think people in different parts of the world see the performance of US armed forces in various parts of te world in a different way then at home. E.g. Beirut, Jemenia, Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam are seen different in terms of reaching goals. In general few young patriotic men anywhere in the world will openly accept defeat. And if so it was some one else fault.
 
QXatFAT
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:58 am



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 10):
Putin for all his so called evil reputation is not stupid. Why would he piss away 8 yrs of progress and his near godlike stature in Russia to start an unwinnable war?

I dont think you know just how stupid Putin can be. The man wants total power of not just Russia but the old "Mother Land" and would love to be the "Big Dog" in the world and to shut up the United States.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 21):
Their are too many fragments of power around the world to go to bi polar existence again. Their will be a odd man out and he will have nukes .

And the he is Russia. It is all going into place. Obama will get elected, he will disarm the United States of his nukes and the next thing you know...Kaboom! We now have the Atlancific Ocean. Long boat travel from Spain to Japan with nothing between.

I know some people on here know me as a Christian nut, but all I see is what is in the Bible. This was all know then. Has anyone in here read the book Epicenter? It is a good read for the Christian or non-Christian explaining things from the political side using scripture and current events. Yeah yeah flame me all you want but when it comes down to it...

...If I am wrong and you are right, nothing happens to me and I am just dust after this life...
...If I am right and you are wrong, well, good luck!
 
11Bravo
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:36 am

... speaking of things bi-polar
 
OlegShv
Posts: 604
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RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:53 am



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 146):

You must be hearing voices, just like Dubya...
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Should The US Take Out Russia Military

Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:55 am



Quoting OlegShv (Reply 148):

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 146):

You must be hearing voices, just like Dubya...

That would be on a good day.  Big grin

At least, Oleg, we can be grateful that whatever is in the water is not in everyone's water over there.

When on earth has Obama ever given evidence of unilateral disarmament? Never that is when.

How could the US win a war against Russia if the Russians were as determined not to lose as is supposed here? Well it could not because the Russians would launch if push was coming to shove, and we would all be stuffed.

Hopefully none of this nonsense ever gets near government in the US, but we did have Curtis Le May near the seat of power did we not? Sounds as if his descendants are going like the clappers!! Putin might be a bit power hungry, but he seems a fair bit more sane than some of the armchair generals that want to go a bit further than sticking a bamboo up his nostril. And poking a stick up the bear's nostril is not the brightest of ideas either.

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