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flexo
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Should We Let Georgia Join The Nato?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:00 pm

We have all seen what happened in Georgia in the last weeks. No doubt Georgia has made strategic mistakes but this thread should not be about who's fault it was.

Georgia has tried to join the NATO before but were rejected and now Russia took advantage of the fact that they were unprotected.

Georgia has little to offer to NATO in terms of military power but is an important strategic location as it is host to an oil pipeline for Kasachian oil.

So, what do you think, should Georgia be part of NATO or should we leave everything as it is now?
 
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OA260
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RE: Should We Let Georgia Join The Nato?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:14 pm

NO WAY !! They should not be allowed to join and now they wont be able to anyway. Is there not a claus about not currently being in a border dispute ( conflict ) as a pre condition to joining?

I dont want NATO to have to fight Russia over Georgia and whatever is being said, the Georgian president is smarter than alot of us. He has been playing the media circus since day one. This was all pre planned and well thought out. Maybe he mis judged the Russians and didnt expect such a backlash but he just set his country back 20 years.

There have been reports of atrocities on both sides and until all is clear any talk of Georgia joining NATO should be shelved.
 
Scotty
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RE: Should We Let Georgia Join The Nato?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:01 pm

Russiain action has been wrong but Georgia has been irresponsible in apparently attacking South Ossetia against advice from other countries including the US. It should not be allowed to join NATO
 
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Asturias
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RE: Should We Let Georgia Join The Nato?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:18 pm

I think there is a better solution to this problem than to admit Georgia into OTAN, were it even eligible. Wait a second!

Why doesn't Ossetia just declare independence unilaterally?  Smile

asturias
 
flexo
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RE: Should We Let Georgia Join The Nato?

Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:21 pm



Quoting Scotty (Reply 2):
It should not be allowed to join NATO



Quoting OA260 (Reply 1):
talk of Georgia joining NATO should be shelved.

What about the strategic importance I mentioned? It would not be good for Europe if Russia took control of this oil pipeline as their power in terms of Europe's energy supply already worries me a lot.
 
dl021
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RE: Should We Let Georgia Join The Nato?

Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:22 am

They should be given a road map, and the Russians put on notice that invading their neighbors a la Hitler in Czechoslovakia will not be tolerated. If the continue we ought to do better than we did for Poland during the "Sitzkreig"
 
Flighty
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RE: Should We Let Georgia Join The Nato?

Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:29 am

How can a country that is permanently occupied by Russia (= South Ossetia) join NATO?

If Georgia can't control South Ossetia and other regions today, doesn't that suggest it would immediately be NATO's responsibility to invade and secure those regions the instant Georgia gets its member card?

No thanks. Not in the mood for a shooting war with the Russians. Georgia can't secure its own territory so it flunks the first test for a major military alliance.
 
swatpamike
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RE: Should We Let Georgia Join The Nato?

Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:16 am

Hello All

If Georgia joins NATO everyone I know will join the Alabama National Guard.  duck 

Cheers

swatpamike
or
swabhmmike
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Should We Let Georgia Join The Nato?

Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:06 am

Quoting Flexo (Thread starter):
Georgia has tried to join the NATO before but were rejected

No, they were not rejected. They simply were not quite ready.


Quote:
At the Bucharest Summit in April 2008...Allied leaders agreed at Bucharest that Georgia and Ukraine – which are currently engaged in an Intensified Dialogue with NATO on their membership aspirations and related reforms – will be members in future. Both countries’ applications to join the MAP process will be reviewed by NATO foreign ministers in December 2008.

http://www.nato.int/issues/enlargement/index.html

Quoting OA260 (Reply 1):
Is there not a claus about not currently being in a border dispute ( conflict ) as a pre condition to joining?

That's right, among others:

Quote:
they are also expected to meet certain political, economic and military goals, which are laid out in the 1995 Study on NATO Enlargement. These include providing evidence:

- that they each represent a functioning democratic, political system based on a market economy;
- that they treat minority populations in accordance with the guidelines of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE);
- that they have worked to resolve outstanding disputes with neighbours and have made an overall commitment to the peaceful settlement of disputes;
- have the ability and willingness to make a military contribution to the Alliance and to achieve interoperability with other members’ forces;
- and are committed to democratic civil-military relations and institutional structures.

http://www.nato.int/docu/handbook/2001/hb030101.htm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 3):
Why doesn't Ossetia just declare independence unilaterally?

They did, years ago. But nobody recognized it, including Russia.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 6):
If Georgia can't control South Ossetia and other regions today, doesn't that suggest it would immediately be NATO's responsibility to invade and secure those regions the instant Georgia gets its member card?

No.

All in all, the rules must be obeyed. But in this particular situation, where Russia does not want Georgia to join NATO, all Russia has to do is to refuse to negotiate in good faith, and to ensure the problems don't go away. The only way out for Georgia in this case would be to give up all claim to the breakaway regions, and hope that they don't expand their claims.

[Edited 2008-08-18 21:09:50]
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Should We Let Georgia Join The Nato?

Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:14 am



Quoting Flexo (Thread starter):
Georgia has little to offer to NATO in terms of military power but is an important strategic location as it is host to an oil pipeline for Kasachian oil.

Yes, NATO membership should be granted to Georgia and Ukraine as soon as possible. It will make Comrade Putin furious, but it will force him and his puppet government in Moscow to work through diplomatic channels instead of military operations.

Georgia is a critical energy transportation corridor through the Black Sea ports of Batumi and Poti - before Russia destroyed it. The so-called BTC oil pipeline runs from Baku through Tbilisi to Ceyhan, Turkey and the South Caucasus Pipeline natural gas pipeline. These are the only oil and gas pipelines in the region that do not enter Russian territory, and thus bypass Russian control that would allow Russia to stop the flow of these critical energy resources to Europe.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Should We Let Georgia Join The Nato?

Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:41 am



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 9):
Yes, NATO membership should be granted to Georgia and Ukraine as soon as possible. It will make Comrade Putin furious, but it will force him and his puppet government in Moscow to work through diplomatic channels instead of military operations.

Georgia is a critical energy transportation corridor through the Black Sea ports of Batumi and Poti - before Russia destroyed it. The so-called BTC oil pipeline runs from Baku through Tbilisi to Ceyhan, Turkey and the South Caucasus Pipeline natural gas pipeline. These are the only oil and gas pipelines in the region that do not enter Russian territory, and thus bypass Russian control that would allow Russia to stop the flow of these critical energy resources to Europe

You mention a strategic asset of the Caucasian region-as an important transit-area for petrol and gas pipelines.True statement- but why can't the status of the wole region as a "neutral" federation of states - neither tied to Russia or Europe- grant the indepencance of populations and infrastructure assets.
Trying to force Georgia into Nato will complicate relations with Russia unneccessarily for the pure sake of power-games. There are more important crisis-areas (Pakistan,Iran,Palestine,Afghanistan,Iraq,Indonesian tribal conflicts..)on this globe -why create another one without resaon? Georgia can develop through decent relations with all countries without emphasizing a special relation with any country in particula;.it would be the best solution for the Georgians..
 
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OA260
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RE: Should We Let Georgia Join The Nato?

Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:09 am



Quoting Asturias (Reply 3):
Why doesn't Ossetia just declare independence unilaterally?

Couldnt do that ..... thats illegal....OH OH wait a minute Ive been here before  Wink  Smile
 
flexo
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RE: Should We Let Georgia Join The Nato?

Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:36 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):

No, they were not rejected. They simply were not quite ready.

Well, they were rejected because they weren't quite ready  Wink But thanks for clearing that up!

Georgia should just let South Ossetia go. I never quite understood the obsession of countries to force certain regions to be part of their state. If they don't want to be Georgians, why force them? Let them do what they want!

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
and hope that they don't expand their claims.

I guess this is the critical part. Russia of course cares little about South Ossetia, what they do care about is getting the oil corridor under their control.

NATO membership would certainly prevent Russia from invading the Georgian mainland in the future.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Should We Let Georgia Join The Nato?

Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:46 pm



Quoting Flexo (Reply 12):
Georgia should just let South Ossetia go. I never quite understood the obsession of countries to force certain regions to be part of their state. If they don't want to be Georgians, why force them? Let them do what they want!

Because South Ossetia wants to be Russian territory, along with their brothers and sisters in North Ossetia. This would place the Georgian capital city of Tbilisi within 40-50 miles of the Russian border - too close for the Georgian's comfort. Tbilisi could easily be overrun by the Russian military, as we have seen from their recent excursion.

One thing - South Ossetia is also a hotbed of criminal activity, such as counterfeiting $20 million USD in $100 dollar bills a few years ago. The U.S. Secret Service has conducted operations within South Ossetia a couple of times with assistance from the Georgian military. The Russian mafia ran rampant within South Ossetia before the war.
 
haggis79
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RE: Should We Let Georgia Join The Nato?

Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:57 pm



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 13):
Because South Ossetia wants to be Russian territory, along with their brothers and sisters in North Ossetia.

Actually, no.... they want to be independent, along with their brothers and sisters in North Ossetia.... that's the main reason why Russia doesn't want to recognize them as independent, they fear North Ossetia could follow.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Should We Let Georgia Join The Nato?

Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:30 pm



Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 14):
Actually, no.... they want to be independent, along with their brothers and sisters in North Ossetia.... that's the main reason why Russia doesn't want to recognize them as independent, they fear North Ossetia could follow.

The South Ossetians are Russian citizens for the most part - they carry Russian passports and identity documents now, courtesy of the Russian government.
 
haggis79
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RE: Should We Let Georgia Join The Nato?

Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:33 pm



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 15):

The South Ossetians are Russian citizens for the most part - they carry Russian passports and identity documents now, courtesy of the Russian government.

true... but so do the Chechenians.... them carrying Russian passports now does not necessarily mean they want to remain Russians...
 
baroque
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RE: Should We Let Georgia Join The Nato?

Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:46 pm



Quoting Flexo (Reply 4):

What about the strategic importance I mentioned? It would not be good for Europe if Russia took control of this oil pipeline as their power in terms of Europe's energy supply already worries me a lot.



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 9):
Georgia is a critical energy transportation corridor through the Black Sea ports of Batumi and Poti - before Russia destroyed it. The so-called BTC oil pipeline runs from Baku through Tbilisi to Ceyhan, Turkey and the South Caucasus Pipeline natural gas pipeline. These are the only oil and gas pipelines in the region that do not enter Russian territory, and thus bypass Russian control that would allow Russia to stop the flow of these critical energy resources to Europe.

Anyone having access to an accurate map of the BTC, please share. One set of maps shows it N of Tbilisi and another perhaps more convincing shows it S of T. I might have found it S of T on Google maps, but I am not convinced as the NE extension looks far from convincing.

Attacking Poti could surely not have been for the Navy, it seems more likely to be related to oil shipments.

There is a map available for 100 pounds, but I think I will wait for the film to come!!
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Should We Let Georgia Join The Nato?

Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:59 pm

NATO and Europe made a critical error by not affirming Georgia's desire and the US push for it to join NATO earlier this year.

The rejection sent a signal to Moscow that West was not ready to draw a line in the sand over Georgia and provided the carte blanche for it to be a bully and act against it.

I've long said Russia is not a friend of the West, and is simply a wolf under new sheep's clothing and its extremely dangerous to be lulled into believing something else.
The people of Eastern Europe can very well share the misery they have endured under then Soviet aggression, and today's Russia continues to use the same old playbook in its dirty games and open hostility against neighbors that clearly desire to reject Russian influence and firmly maintain their freedom and national independence.
 
GDB
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RE: Should We Let Georgia Join The Nato?

Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:26 pm

Even if NATO admittance had between agreed a few months ago, it would not have happened overnight, or for some considerable time.
Russia would not allow that to happen.

While Russia's actions have been deplorable (and Georgia's stupid), I would remind those gung ho about this, about the reaction of the US when nations in their hemisphere, did not tow the US's line.
While we are talking about criminal activity, certainly pre the missile crisis, the flatfooted CIA, used criminal elements in what were, like it or not, terrorist attacks, against a sovereign nation.
The Mafia, against Cuba.
While the missile crisis was a reckless move by the USSR, they did have US Jupiter IRBM's on their borders, in Turkey, at the time.

Taken with the deployment of the highly dubious 'missile defence' systems in the former WarPac nations, whatever the reasons for it, it does allow Russia to effectively say, the US again has a policy of do as we say, not as we do .

Georgia is far from stable, it has not been so since breaking from the USSR, this alone should rule them out of NATO membership.
While they've no doubt had their eyes of Georgia for a long time, it might be that Georgia's application for NATO membership concentrated Russian minds on that state.

Georgia in NATO is not the same as nations like Poland, the Czechs and others becoming members, which they had every right to do since they met the criteria.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Should We Let Georgia Join The Nato?

Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:39 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 17):
Anyone having access to an accurate map of the BTC, please share. One set of maps shows it N of Tbilisi and another perhaps more convincing shows it S of T. I might have found it S of T on Google maps, but I am not convinced as the NE extension looks far from convincing.

Big version: Width: 800 Height: 463 File size: 334kb
Georgian / Caucasus Regional Pipelines


I have no idea whether this map is 100% accurate or not.... but Russian government is not keeping its word regarding the cease-fire and removal of troops from Georgia. Why am I not surprised in the least?  sarcastic 

In an article from the Associated Press: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26294314/

"It is time for the Russian president to keep his word to withdraw Russian forces," Rice said in comments echoed by French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner, who helped negotiate the deal.

"We are very disappointed, because despite the promise to us, there is no withdrawal of troops," Kouchner told reporters after Tuesday's meeting. "When you sign up to an agreement you have to respect it."
 
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Asturias
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RE: Should We Let Georgia Join The Nato?

Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:00 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 11):
Couldnt do that ..... thats illegal....OH OH wait a minute Ive been here before    

 Wink

Indeed

asturias
 
Scotty
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Joined: Thu Dec 23, 1999 10:51 pm

RE: Should We Let Georgia Join The Nato?

Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:35 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 11):
Couldnt do that ..... thats illegal....OH OH wait a minute Ive been here before

They at least had some kind of referendum on the matter - more than Kosovo ever did and the west has bought independence there

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_O...tian_independence_referendum,_2006

There will be another referendum on independence elsewhere in 2010. Probably on November 30th I would predict

I wonder whether the US will be on the side of the "preserving the integrity of the nation state" or of "the democratic voice of the people" in that one???  highfive 
 
Flighty
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RE: Should We Let Georgia Join The Nato?

Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:51 pm



Quoting Scotty (Reply 22):
I wonder whether the US will be on the side of the "preserving the integrity of the nation state" or of "the democratic voice of the people" in that one???

Nothing new; we've been struggling with that question since (for example) our founding by secession from the British, and subsequent American Civil War which was all about putting down a secession. From the outside, these were opposite principles ("American" principles)!!!!

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