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MaverickM11
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Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:49 pm

No bonus points for guessing where this transpires...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1219...55249.html?mod=hpp_us_inside_today

"SAN FRANCISCO -- New York is wooing cyclists with chartreuse bike lanes. Chicago is spending nearly $1 million for double-decker bicycle parking.

San Francisco can't even install new bike racks.


Blame Rob Anderson. At a time when most other cities are encouraging biking as green transport, the 65-year-old local gadfly has stymied cycling-support efforts here by arguing that urban bicycle boosting could actually be bad for the environment. That's put the brakes on everything from new bike lanes to bike racks while the city works on an environmental-impact report.
"

"Cars always will vastly outnumber bikes, he reasons, so allotting more street space to cyclists could cause more traffic jams, more idling and more pollution. Mr. Anderson says the city has been blinded by political correctness. It's an "attempt by the anti-car fanatics to screw up our traffic on behalf of the bicycle fantasy," he wrote in his blog this month."
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Flighty
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:37 pm

Intriguing. It is always important to investigate things like this and make the calculations.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:11 pm

I think that it would depend on what the cyclists were eating, wouldn't it?

 Wink
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itsjustme
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:26 pm

The guy's got a point. Let's face it, in California cars out number bicycles a bazzillion to one (before anyone asks: a bazzillion = a shitload x10). It'd make more sense for the State to look into dedicating a lane for motorcyclists rather than bicyclists. Being that bikers have legal lane sharing ability here, doing so would not only cut down on fuel use but it'd probably save a few motorcyclist's lives as well.

[Edited 2008-08-20 14:28:09]
 
lowrider
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:40 pm

Not addressed but also interesting to consider, how much pollution is created and oil will be consumed in the construction of all these bicycle goodies. If you want a bicycle infrastructure in your city and are willing to pay for it, by all means, have at it. Don't try to tell me that it is necessary for the good of the environment.
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2H4
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:41 pm



Quoting Rob Anderson.:
"Cars always will vastly outnumber bikes, he reasons, so allotting more street space to cyclists could cause more traffic jams, more idling and more pollution.

What an idiot.

Creating and maintaining a bicycle-friendly infrastructure makes it easy for people to commute via bicycle. Making it easy for people to commute via bicycle encourages people to leave their cars at home and use their bicycles instead.

It's about converting drivers to riders, and that decreases congestion, idling, and pollution.

What a complete moron.

2H4
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2H4
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:45 pm



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 4):
If you want a bicycle infrastructure in your city and are willing to pay for it, by all means, have at it. Don't try to tell me that it is necessary for the good of the environment.

If a bicycle infrastructure is built but rarely or lightly used, the net impact on the environment would be detrimental.

If, on the other hand, a bicycle infrastructure is built and regularly or heavily used as an alternative to driving, the net impact on the environment would be positive.

2H4
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lowrider
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:09 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 6):

Fair enough. I know what I have seen around Amsterdam is impressive, well thought out, and well used. I cannot say the same about what I have seen around my home town.
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itsjustme
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:10 pm

Maybe some of you SFO types can chirp in here. But if commuting in SF is anything like L.A. (I'm not saying it is or isn't - I am asking) then it's someone's pipe dream to think that the creation of more bike lanes will have any effect on decreasing vehicular traffic and increasing bicycle traffic.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 5):
What an idiot.

Seems a little harsh. I'd title him as being a realist, not an idiot.
 
2H4
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:16 pm



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 7):
I know what I have seen around Amsterdam is impressive, well thought out, and well used. I cannot say the same about what I have seen around my home town.

Absolutely, and if gas prices were to return to and remain at extremely low levels, I don't think very many bicycle infrastructures would ever be used to their potential, nor would their benefits be fully realized.

If gas prices stay at their current levels or increase at all, I think more and more bicycle infrastructures will see increasingly heavy use, thus providing very real benefits to cyclists, drivers, and the environment.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 8):
Seems a little harsh. I'd title him as being a realist, not an idiot.

He'd be a realist if he weren't ignoring the reality that a well-designed bicycle infrastructure will solve the problems he's describing. I'm not sure if his head is in the sand or in some other dark place, but he would do well to pull it out.  yes 

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Superfly
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:59 pm



Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 8):
Maybe some of you SFO types can chirp in here.

 wave 

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 5):
Making it easy for people to commute via bicycle encourages people to leave their cars at home and use their bicycles instead.

Ain't going to happen.
I ride my bike a lot and would love to ride to work. I understand that is a good idea but it just isn't practical.
For starters, who wants to show up to work hot & sweaty? Most places do not offer a shower to clean up after a bike ride. What about when it rains? How about bike storage?
A U-lock only guards the frame, if that. There are lots of features on a bike that get stolen. Will there be a paied gaurd to watch these bikes 24-hours a day?
Who wants to spend a extra 30-40 minutes changing, showering, taking apart their bikes before they go to work in the morning?

As a cyclist, I am uncomfortable with all of the attetion these angry anarchist Green types have been drawing. I don't need a bike lane and I've done fine without them for years. All city officials do is tak away a driving lane or parking on a street to paint a bike line. That is a waste of money. No one has sold there car in favor of a bike because a city painted a bike lane.
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2H4
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:27 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
Ain't going to happen.

Oh, but it already is!  Smile

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
I understand that is a good idea but it just isn't practical.

It hasn't been practical, and it still isn't always practical, but times, they are-a-changing.

More and more businesses are being convinced to provide locker rooms, showers, and secure storage facilities....and we're only in year one or two of unusually high gas prices. Another five or ten years of high fuel prices will only accelerate the prevalence of bicycle-friendly workplaces.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
What about when it rains?

Rainshell and fenders, of course.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
How about bike storage?

Secure storage facilities, which, while presently rare, are certainly increasing in popularity in cities around the country.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
A U-lock only guards the frame, if that. There are lots of features on a bike that get stolen. Will there be a paied gaurd to watch these bikes 24-hours a day?

Nope. Bike lockers and secure storage facilities. A U-lock, properly used, guards the frame and both wheels. Add a seat leash for the saddle and seatpost, and bikes are secure in all but the most theft-prone areas.

Superfly, nobody is saying bicycle commuting won't require effort on the part of the commuter or change on the part of cities. It will require both. The fact is, as energy prices increase, as congestion becomes more of a problem, and as the nation becomes more obese, bicycle commuting makes more and more sense.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
Who wants to spend a extra 30-40 minutes changing, showering, taking apart their bikes before they go to work in the morning?

I.....and many others....find that to be MUCH preferable to spending the same amount of time burning gas in traffic, congested or otherwise. Especially for the health benefits it provides.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
I don't need a bike lane and I've done fine without them for years.

Me either, but this isn't about catering to those of us who are already commuting via bicycle. It's about attracting more and more regular folks who would only consider commuting via bicycle if paths and lanes are built and maintained.  yes 

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
No one has sold there car in favor of a bike because a city painted a bike lane.

They have, actually. But more importantly, people have kept their cars and have been gradually replacing their driving with cycling due to safer infrastructures.

The goal isn't to replace all driving altogether. The goal is to get regular people to start with baby steps, maybe commuting via bicycle one day a week at first and gradually making a real impact on congestion, the obesity crises, and energy consumption. And in order for that to happen, safe paths and lanes have to be installed and maintained.

2H4

P.S. - Despite being a cycling advocate, I'll go on record as pointing out that there will ALWAYS be a place for those fantastic, 70s-era cars of yours.  biggrin 
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Superfly
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:19 am



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 11):
More and more businesses are being convinced to provide locker rooms, showers, and secure storage facilities....and we're only in year one or two of unusually high gas prices. Another five or ten years of high fuel prices will only accelerate the prevalence of bicycle-friendly workplaces.

For me, it's bike vs. riding the MUNI subway.
Very few commuters spend the $30+ per day to park downtown San Francisco.
The past two places I've worked, only the CEO had a shower and it was adjacent to his office.
Us folks low on the totem pole didn't have that luxury.
When I was in college, I rode my bike to work because I didn't have a professional job that required business attire. It was OK to wear jeans & sweat pants.
I do like biking because I like the exercise, see places I wouldn't be about to in a car, meet other cyclist and I find it relaxing. It's not to save the environment. Even if gas were 5 cents gallon, I'd still ride my bike when I want.
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lowrider
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:21 am



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 11):

If you don't mind my asking, what are your limits for bike commuting? I know your town is bike friendly, but the climate is not exactly bike hospitable for at least 4 months out of the year. Year round commuting might work great in sunny CA, but how do you propose we get around retreating to cars for the winter?

I ask this hypothetically of course, gas will have to get pretty expensive before you see me pedaling to the airport with my 75 lbs of luggage and flight case in tow.
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stasisLAX
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:44 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 11):
Secure storage facilities, which, while presently rare, are certainly increasing in popularity in cities around the country.

We have a neat bike storage facility here in Long Beach called the "Bike Station". I believe that there are several of these facilities in California.

Long Beach Transit Mall "Bike Station"


The Bike Station is located in downtown Long Beach's transit mall (our hub for bus, Metro rail, and the Aqua Link boats) and is a useful place. It has 40 double tiered bike racks, 24 hour passcard access, and offers members amenities such as bike repairs, rentals, changing rooms, restrooms, and accessory sales. Membership fee is $12 per month - very reasonable and definitely worth the investment!

Source: www.bikestation.org

[Edited 2008-08-20 18:46:10]
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Superfly
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:49 am



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 13):
I know your town is bike friendly,

I didn't know you were in Madison!
I LOVE Madison!  Cool
I rode around Madison several times on my visits there.
I've made several reports about Madison, one in the trip reports forums.
See if you know any of these people.  Smile


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https://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ums/trip_reports/read.main/113840/


I Like Madison, Wisconsin
https://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...on_aviation/read.main/1635760/1/#1

Biking around to school and campus jobs are great, but once you start a professional gig it's much more difficult.
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steeler83
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:14 am



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 7):
Quoting 2H4 (Reply 6):


Fair enough. I know what I have seen around Amsterdam is impressive, well thought out, and well used. I cannot say the same about what I have seen around my home town.

I don't exactly agree with this guy's logic either. Besides, if my interview with ERM next week goes very well and they offer me the GIS Analyst/Environmental Scientist position at their Exton, PA office, I will ride my bike to work now and then. Their office is almost literally right up the road from where I live! I calculated my drive on google maps, and it's only a 9 minute drive!

Also, add Copenhagen to that as well. I believe they have an entire neighborhood that is entirely void of motorized vehicles... I watched a documentary about that for one of my planning courses at West Chester University of PA...
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Superfly
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:29 am

Re: Reply 15
Thanks Lowrider
That post was meant for 2H4.
Bring back the Concorde
 
2H4
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:38 am



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 13):
If you don't mind my asking, what are your limits for bike commuting?

Well, it depends on which limits you're talking about.

Mileage, probably about 15 miles would be my maximum for regular commuting. Temperature depends on mileage. The shorter the distance, the colder I'll go, and vice-versa. If you're within a few miles of work, you can throw on some warm street clothes and do just fine. Beyond that, perspiration (and breatheability) becomes a factor, and cycling-specific gear becomes necessary.

I don't like riding when windchill is a factor. I'll ride in light rain, but I dislike riding in heavy downpours. Snow is usually not a problem, but ice is.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 13):
Year round commuting might work great in sunny CA, but how do you propose we get around retreating to cars for the winter?

Ah, but I never suggested that the bicycle should replace the car entirely! I've always maintained that there is, and always will be a place for cars. Winter, downpours, buying groceries for the entire family, the list goes on.

But at the same time, there is still a TON of opportunity for a lot of people to commute via bicycle....and that's the whole idea. If a large number of people use a bicycle for just a portion of their commutes, when and as they're able, the aggregate result will not be insignificant. Small hinges swing big doors.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 13):
I ask this hypothetically of course, gas will have to get pretty expensive before you see me pedaling to the airport with my 75 lbs of luggage and flight case in tow.

Sure, and the reality is, the option simply isn't feasible for many people. I maintain, however, that for each person who genuinely cannot at least occasionally commute via bicycle, there are a few more who can do with a minimum of effort.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):
I didn't know you were in Madison!
I LOVE Madison!
I rode around Madison several times on my visits there.

Well, I live outside of Madison, but not too far out of town. You'll have to drop me a line the next time you're around.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):
Biking around to school and campus jobs are great, but once you start a professional gig it's much more difficult.

Fortunately, that's starting to change. I'm looking forward to seeing it change even more rapidly in the not-too-distant future.

2H4
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Dougloid
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:41 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 18):
Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):
Biking around to school and campus jobs are great, but once you start a professional gig it's much more difficult.

Fortunately, that's starting to change. I'm looking forward to seeing it change even more rapidly in the not-too-distant future.

If everyone who could work from home did work from home at least three days a week we'd be up to our asses in $20 a barrel oil and gasoline.
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seb146
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:03 pm

I don't know about SFO. I have been a few times and the traffic is horrid. I have not seen many bicyclists in the city, but where I usually stay in San Rafael and Fairfax, I see a lot of bicyclists. There are not many paths or lanes for them in that part of the North Bay. The parking in SFO is really bad anyway but I don't think it has anything to do with bikes. We spent an hour looking for any kind of parking in Chinatown, but I did not see any bikes. We finally found a garage on the edge of Chinatown. Last time we were there, we went to a mall near Sunset. I did not see any bike tie-downs, but I saw plenty of car parking in the mall's lot.

I can, however, speak for PDX. We are very bike friendly. Wide streets with a separate bike lane, bike boxes like those found in Europe, even separate bike paths. Bike storage in offices and parking garages that only take up three or four spaces per floor. Buses and light rail have bike spaces, bike lockers at many light rail stations.... I don't see this guy's point. I guess if he saw how bike travel should be set up, he would not be so upset.
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2H4
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:07 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 20):
I don't see this guy's point.

The problem is, he's assuming that hundreds of thousands of cyclists will magically appear in addition to the existing cars on the road. And that's simply not true. In an environment of higher gas prices, one additional cyclist during peak commuting hours generally means one less car clogging the road.

2H4
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Superfly
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:14 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 20):
I don't know about SFO. I have been a few times and the traffic is horrid. I have not seen many bicyclists in the city,

Oh man, there are TONS of cyclist here in San Francisco. Very few have common sense though.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 20):
We spent an hour looking for any kind of parking in Chinatown,

Should have went a few blocks east. Plenty of parking on Kearney, Stockton, Montgomery and Sansome.

That would be Stonestown mall in the Stonestown district.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 20):
Last time we were there, we went to a mall near Sunset. I did not see any bike tie-downs, but I saw plenty of car parking in the mall's lot.



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 19):
If everyone who could work from home did work from home at least three days a week.....

Very few people have that option with their jobs. JetBlue can only hire a certain amount of customer service reps.  Wink

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 18):
Well, I live outside of Madison, but not too far out of town. You'll have to drop me a line the next time you're around.

Will do!  yes 

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 18):
Fortunately, that's starting to change.

I am not seeing it.
I have yet to see a company change their office configuration to add in locker rooms and showers. I am sure a few hip dotcom places down the Peninsula has them but many of those companies have folded.
Bring back the Concorde
 
CanadianNorth
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:36 pm

Whitehorse seems to be doing a decent job with bike space, especially considering we have snow on the ground non-stop 5-6 months a year.

I bike whenever practical in Whitehorse, and in all honesty if driving was cheaper than biking I'd probably still bike at least a few days a week. The fresh air is great. The scenery is nice. The exercise feels good. The folks you meet on the way are awesome. And once you get used to it, it's really not that much extra work. Luckily I've always had safe places around to lock my bike where I don't have to worry about seats and wheels up and walking away on me, and in these places it takes no longer to park a bike than it does to park the truck. Plus biking always puts a smile on my face when I arrive at work.

I just really wish more people would at least try it a few times and I'm sure it wouldn't take long for them to agree that it's actually a pretty good way to get around. Cars and trucks definately are needed for a lot of times, but there's also a lot of times were they aren't. I would never give up motorized vehicles for my bike, but I certainly use them a lot less because of my bike.

Sorry for rambling, I guess I'm just trying to say that bikes are an awesome idea, but the average Canadian and American really needs to wake up and at least try it. As the saying goes, don't knock it till you've tried it...


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PPVRA
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:17 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 21):
The problem is, he's assuming that hundreds of thousands of cyclists will magically appear in addition to the existing cars on the road. And that's simply not true. In an environment of higher gas prices, one additional cyclist during peak commuting hours generally means one less car clogging the road.

Yes, but you are also make an assumption: that enough people will drop their cars in favor of bikes. You need to study the market and make sure that the benefits of one bike lane outweighs the benefits of the extra car lane.

I'd love to see more bike paths, though. I hope it works on their favor.
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flexo
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:26 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 24):
Yes, but you are also make an assumption: that enough people will drop their cars in favor of bikes. You need to study the market and make sure that the benefits of one bike lane outweighs the benefits of the extra car lane.

Well, Amsterdam (and many many other cities around the world btw) prove that people do choose the bicycle more often if the infrastructure is in their favor. It is also important that the city is not too hilly though or else it won't work.
That is part of the reason why cycling is so popular in the Netherlands. As for San Francisco - I have some serious doubts!

The other nice thing about bike paths are the recreational value. It is fun to do a bike tour with the family to a nice picnic spot or so. Not so much if you have to share the road with cars.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 18):
Mileage, probably about 15 miles would be my maximum for regular commuting

15 miles for regular commuting??? Are you serious? Without getting completely sweaty that would take me more than an hour on even terrain. That seems way too high a number, but if it works for you, ok. My limit would be somewhere around 5 miles.
 
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johnboy
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:20 pm

I bought a bicycle last November to train for the AIDS Life Cycle event, and started cycling to work beginning in January.

Now, granted, I only live about 3 miles from my work, but I like it well enough and the fact that the hospital has locker rooms with showers makes it a breeze to carry scrubs in a bike messenger bag and get ready there.

The real pisser is that I live at the top of a hill, so after 12 hours of lifting these dead-weight patients, i'm having to huff and puff up that to get back home. But hey, it's exercise, right?

There are bike lanes on nearly every major street around my East Bay home, and a pretty sweet trail system where I can get to several BART stations if needed......too bad about the holdup on the SF improvements though. Maybe some particularly bad karma will come Mr. Anderson's way (hopefully cycle-related).

(btw, I nearly bought into the BikeStation concept, StasisLAX, but for some mysterious reason they are no longer affiliated with either the Embarcadero or Berkeley bike facilities).
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:36 pm



Quoting Johnboy (Reply 26):
(btw, I nearly bought into the BikeStation concept, StasisLAX, but for some mysterious reason they are no longer affiliated with either the Embarcadero or Berkeley bike facilities).

I wonder what's up with that? Those locations are still listed on the bikestation.org website. I'll have to remember to ask the manager the next time I'm in their Long Beach location. Thanks for the "heads up"!
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seb146
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:16 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 22):
That would be Stonestown mall in the Stonestown district.

Yep! That would be the one! There were buses filled to the gills, but no bikes.

Quoting CanadianNorth (Reply 23):
Whitehorse



Quoting CanadianNorth (Reply 23):
The scenery is nice

There's two things you don't hear every day Big grin
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
CanadianNorth
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:22 am



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 28):
Quoting CanadianNorth (Reply 23):
Whitehorse



Quoting CanadianNorth (Reply 23):
The scenery is nice

There's two things you don't hear every day

Ok, what am I missing?  wink 



CanadianNorth
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:07 am



Quoting Flexo (Reply 25):

I agree. It's a very efficient means of transport. It also can't be too hot and humid or too long distances, and that's three reasons I see it as a difficult proposition in many parts of the U.S.

I haven't been to San Francisco yet, but aside from the hills you mentioned, the city seems like one of the ideal candidates for bike paths. I could see New York using some too.
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DocLightning
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:41 am

Here's the problem with biking in San Francisco: the hills.

By the time I have extracted my bike from my back yard, applied the fenders and lights, then biked down Haight to Stanyan, then up Stanyan to the USF campus for swim practice...or up Waller to Frederick and then across to Parnassus to get to work, I'm a sweaty mess. Then, on arrival, I need to find a compatible bike rack, remove my fenders and lights, lovingly chain the wheels and frame to the U lock around the rack, and go inside. And by the time that's all done, I could just as well have walked and not ruined my clothes.
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Superfly
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:26 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
Here's the problem with biking in San Francisco: the hills.

By the time I have extracted my bike from my back yard, applied the fenders and lights, then biked down Haight to Stanyan, then up Stanyan to the USF campus for swim practice...or up Waller to Frederick and then across to Parnassus to get to work, I'm a sweaty mess. Then, on arrival, I need to find a compatible bike rack, remove my fenders and lights, lovingly chain the wheels and frame to the U lock around the rack, and go inside. And by the time that's all done, I could just as well have walked and not ruined my clothes.

....and that's an easy ride.
Just image those that live in areas with more intense hills than your ride to work.

I love cycling a lot but it will never be a viable alternative to the automobile.
I'd like to see these militant cyclist eco-freaks go to China, Cambodia and India and tell these people that they shouldn't drive or own a car.
It probably wouldn't go over well since these are all privileged westerners.
Bring back the Concorde
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:21 pm

Interesting that they would be trying to prevent cars stopped and idling but no one suggests tearing out the toll booths on the Golden Gate, Bay, Richmond-San Rafael, Carquinez, San Mateo or Dumbarton bridges.

Until they do I cannot take any of it serious. It is all just a move to divert money from someone else' pockets to yours.

Here's one culprit for you.

You will never have the opportunity to vote for a person who would eliminate this twice-a-day, five days a week abomination though. People who run for office love "user charges" like road tolls. It is a tax they don't have to have on their voting records.

Bicycles will never be practical for San Francisco again. People who work in "the city" tend to be unable to afford to live there. Tens of thousands of them commute from as far away as Santa Rosa and Windsor, even Cloverdale now. Try that on your bicycle!
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
flexo
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:48 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 33):
People who run for office love "user charges" like road tolls. It is a tax they don't have to have on their voting records.

Couldn't have said it any better. Mind you though, no one would get elected suggesting to raise taxes to get rid of these toll roads! Raising taxes is just a very unpopular thing.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:32 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 33):
Bicycles will never be practical for San Francisco again. People who work in "the city" tend to be unable to afford to live there. Tens of thousands of them commute from as far away as Santa Rosa and Windsor, even Cloverdale now. Try that on your bicycle!

 checkmark 

These pro-bike people are mostly out of touch, elitist, never had or never will get a serious job either. These people really don't understand reality.
Bring back the Concorde
 
PPVRA
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:45 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 33):
People who run for office love "user charges" like road tolls.

If they loved it so much, they'd be everywhere.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 33):
Interesting that they would be trying to prevent cars stopped and idling but no one suggests tearing out the toll booths on the Golden Gate, Bay, Richmond-San Rafael, Carquinez, San Mateo or Dumbarton bridges.

Answer is to hike the price during rush hours.

Interestingly, a joint UCLA-USC study has found that toll roads would be more fair to low-income residents than paying for roads through taxes. And to top it all of, to a certain degree you get some of the benefits of a privatized road system.

You can find a press release to the study right here.

[Edited 2008-08-24 20:51:56]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Dougloid
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:52 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 22):
Very few people have that option with their jobs. JetBlue can only hire a certain amount of customer service reps.

They may not have that option but that isn't to say that their jobs couldn't be reengineered to be done from home. We already have industries that did not exist ten years ago, and virtual universities like the one I teach for. The majority of Americans work in jobs where information is the stock in trade. My wife used ot work downtown for an insurance company. I could empty that building out in a day if they'd let me.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
SlamClick
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:27 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):
Answer is to hike the price during rush hours.

Yeah that's the answer but I don't think you know what the question is.

All that answers is how can we price-gouge the poor bastards who are stuck in this line and don't have ANY WAY OUT OF IT? What you propose would be evil, and that is all there is to it. Hike the price to what purpose? Get people to stop going to work? I'm sorry but it is a really bad idea and I can't express how bad without having this post deleted.

It would accomplish nothing but take money away from unoffending citizens and give it to a goverment that is a big part of the problem.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:30 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 38):

It's supposed to avoid the creation of congestion, not meant to be a trap. That would be evil. The point is to have a schedule that people are familiar with, and then they would either schedule their way around it, carpool to split the cost of the toll, or even better--go for Buses or the Subway.

When people are then not driving themselves downtown, they won't have a car to get them around the city, and thus you will really create an environment for alternative transportation within the city. It may not be bikes in San Francisco, but it could mean an expansion of the cable cars in the city.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Superfly
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Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:33 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 39):
When people are then not driving themselves downtown

Most people don't drive themselves in to downtown or any big city for work.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 39):
it could mean an expansion of the cable cars in the city.

I hope you're not talking about the vintage cable cars.  no 
They would never extend those routes and it wouldn't be practical. They are also very slow.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 37):
We already have industries that did not exist ten years ago, and virtual universities like the one I teach for. The majority of Americans work in jobs where information is the stock in trade.

You are still talking about a tiny segment of the work force.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):
Answer is to hike the price during rush hours.

Bad idea.
The higher end wage earners have more flexibility with their work schedule but those down in the mailroom and receptionist don't have such flexibility. Therefore, they will have to pay for the higher tolls when they go to work.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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falstaff
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:15 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 40):
I hope you're not talking about the vintage cable cars.
They would never extend those routes and it wouldn't be practical. They are also very slow.

Not to mention that each part must be made for those things by hand. There isn't a stock pile of parts. Now the PCC cars are another story SF has gobs of PCC streetcar parts.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 40):
Most people don't drive themselves in to downtown or any big city for work.

Here in the D we are all screwed up and driving downtown is the only way to get there unless you live near a bus route.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 40):
Bad idea.
The higher end wage earners have more flexibility with their work schedule but those down in the mailroom and receptionist don't have such flexibility. Therefore, they will have to pay for the higher tolls when they go to work.

I agree. Don't forget about people who do shift work. There is a set time you have to be there everyday and a set time that the new shift comes in. You can't run a lot of places with people coming in and leaving at different times.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 37):
The majority of Americans work in jobs where information is the stock in trade

I would not say a majority. I can think of a lot of jobs that you have to be at the job site. Police officer, mechanic, teacher, EMT, pilot, train crew, roofer, welder, plumber, farmer, store clerk, truck driver, electrician, assembly line, doctor, nurse, baggage handler, car salesman, brewer, restaurant staff, hotel staff..... the list is endless. I would say relativly few Americans, or anyone else, work in jobs where information is the stock in trade.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 33):
People who work in "the city" tend to be unable to afford to live there. Tens of thousands of them commute from as far away as Santa Rosa and Windsor, even Cloverdale now. Try that on your bicycle!

Superfly and his buddies don't make huge bucks, but they still can live in the city. A lot of the money that those people waste commuting would make up the difference in price. Also if you want a huge house on a decent size piece of land you will be out of luck in the city, but that is true of just about any city (Except Detroit, you can buy a lot of land in the city for cheap.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:23 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 41):
Don't forget about people who do shift work. There is a set time you have to be there everyday and a set time that the new shift comes in. You can't run a lot of places with people coming in and leaving at different times.

Many of these bike activist are insulated in there 'happy bubble' and can't wrap their brain around realities of most working people. You know, people that work for a living and there livelihoods are dependent on their jobs.
Those that actually have the ability to ride their bikes to work actually do that.  yes 
Those are the lucky ones that live within a few miles of their jobs and on flat surface.
Bring back the Concorde
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8603
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:59 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 40):

Most people don't drive themselves in to downtown or any big city for work.

But many do. Look at the traffic picture posted above.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 40):
I hope you're not talking about the vintage cable cars. no
They would never extend those routes and it wouldn't be practical. They are also very slow.

Dang, I thought you guys liked them traditional-style and would miss them if they got replaced by new, larger ones like these:



Quoting Superfly (Reply 40):

The higher end wage earners have more flexibility with their work schedule but those down in the mailroom and receptionist don't have such flexibility. Therefore, they will have to pay for the higher tolls when they go to work.

They won't lose much flexibility because you will see plenty of mass transit alternatives at these expensive times. A $10 toll price divided by 40 occupants in a bus is only 25c per person. Of course you also have the ticket price on top of that, but as it often happens in Brazil, employers quite often pay for the transport of their employees if costs becomes burdensome on the employee.

Of course mass transit will never be quite as flexible as a car, but forgoing an enormous waste of time in bumper to bumper traffic is quite a luxury too (more leisure time). I suppose the scope of the study mentioned above was limited to the distributive effects of the two different funding systems and didn't go beyond into the effects this would have in transportation as a whole. At least the press release didn't go further than that.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:13 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 43):
Dang, I thought you guys liked them traditional-style and would miss them if they got replaced by new, larger ones like these:




We have those too.
We have the Breta cars from Italy that break down ALL THE TIME!
I almost lost a job due to repeated tardiness because of those Breta cars that are so unreliable. It takes up to an hour & a half to get 3.5 miles downtown from my house.
They were delivered to MUNI broken. After 2 years in service, 1/3rd. of the entire MUNI fleet was down due to maintenance.

The traditional Cable Cars you are thinking of only serve a tiny section in the northeast corner of San Francisco. That is manly for tourist to ride and take pictures of. There are a few commuters that do use those to get to work. The area they serve is SUPER EXPENSIVE.
Anyone who can afford to live in the areas served by those Cable Cars probably make their own hours, own their own company and probably aren't working for anyone.

That photo you show is just traffic leading to a toll gate.
What city is that in BTW?
It's not in California.

[Edited 2008-08-25 17:16:21]
Bring back the Concorde
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8603
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:40 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 44):
We have the Breta cars from Italy that break down ALL THE TIME!

Italians. . . you get either superb quality products of utter crap. Ok, maybe unfair generalization.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 44):
he traditional Cable Cars you are thinking of only serve a tiny section in the northeast corner of San Francisco. That is manly for tourist to ride and take pictures of. There are a few commuters that do use those to get to work.

Makes sense.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 44):
That photo you show is just traffic leading to a toll gate.

You're right, forgot about that. But there are many pictures online of commute traffic in Atlanta and Los Angeles, among other cities.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 44):
What city is that in BTW?
It's not in California.

Munich, Germany.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
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RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:45 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 45):
But there are many pictures online of commute traffic in Atlanta and Los Angeles, among other cities.

Atlanta and Los Angeles are newer cities and superficial * cities that are very spread out.


* Sorry but I had to take a jab at both of those cities.  Smile
Bring back the Concorde
 
PPVRA
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Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:54 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 46):

Los Angeles looks like crap from the air, but I'll withhold further judgement until I actually visit the city. Don't necessarily disagree with you as far as Atlanta goes, especially the suburbs, though I see some improvements around the downtown area.

 Wink
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
CanadianNorth
Posts: 3282
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 11:41 am

RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:58 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 35):
These pro-bike people are mostly out of touch, elitist, never had or never will get a serious job either. These people really don't understand reality.

Sorry, but I can't help but take some offence to all of the above.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 42):
You know, people that work for a living and there livelihoods are dependent on their jobs.

Money from my job is whats keeping me going now.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 42):
Those that actually have the ability to ride their bikes to work actually do that.

Then why do I know several people that could bike to work/school no problem, but "don't feel like it"?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 42):
Those are the lucky ones that live within a few miles of their jobs and on flat surface.

Well biking home from work was quite a climb for me, and much worse from school. Far, far from being a flat area. And living near work isn't always a case of luck, but often a case of being smart about both choosing a place to live and applying for jobs.



CanadianNorth
HS-748, like a 747 but better!
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Could Bike Lanes Cause Pollution?

Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:01 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 47):
Los Angeles looks like crap from the air,

Just wait until you land.  Smile

I used to live in SoCal so I can rag on Los Angeles.

Speaking of bicycles and Los Angeles, I actually got stopped by the police riding my bicycle. I was only 13 years old at the time.
The police just didn't under stand why I would be riding my bike. This was in La Canada right near JPL Laboratory.
Bring back the Concorde

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