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MaverickM11
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Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:57 pm

In a surprise to no one...
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/25/russia.vote/index.html

"MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- Russian lawmakers asked President Dmitry Medvedev on Monday to recognize the independence of two breakaway regions of Georgia: Abkhazia and South Ossetia.


Presidents Eduard Kokoity of South Ossetia and Sergei Bagapsh of Abkhazia at the Russian Duma.

Neither Russia nor the United Nations currently recognize either region as independent, despite both declaring de facto independence from Georgia.

The two regions have autonomous governments backed by Russia.

On Monday, both houses of Russian parliament voted unanimously for such recognition. The Federation Council, the upper chamber, voted 130-0 and the Duma, the lower chamber, voted was 447-0 with three lawmakers absent.

However the parliamentary votes are not legally binding and Medvedev will make the final call.
"

I'm sure they feel the same about Chechnya Yeah sure
 
PSA727
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:19 pm

This brings no significance to the matter until the U.N. recognizes them as
independent nations. How does Russia feel about Catalunya in Spain?  Silly

I think the U.S. Congress should petition to have Chechnya be recognized as
an independent nation.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:24 pm

Unfortunately this is only an exploitation of the Kosovo precedent.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Osseti

Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:30 pm

Just wait how long it takes until the two provinces have a referndum to join Russia. Next will be the Crimean peninsula. In the 1940s, Stalin deported the original population of Muslim Crimean Tartars, because he suspected them to be too friendly towards the Germans, and replaced them with people from mainland Russia.

On the other hand, if it is a genuine referendum among the Ossetians and Abchasians (who have AFAIK no history of a population exchange in the past), then the selfdetermination of the peoples should rank above the right of territorial integrityof a country.
But now the Russians have to get out of Georgia proper and, if the Georgian government accepts the loss of the two provinces and has no more territorial claims, they can in theory join NATO.

Jan
 
Acheron
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:10 pm



Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
I'm sure they feel the same about Chechnya



Quoting PSA727 (Reply 1):
I think the U.S. Congress should petition to have Chechnya be recognized as
an independent nation.

Hmm, wouldn't that be recognizing terrorism as valid means of fighting?. After all, the chechens "fought" their "independence" by means of terrorism, or we forgot about Beslan and similar situations already?.

If so, maybe we should also recognize Basque Country independence since terrorism is valid. Yeah sure
Maybe doing the same for Sri Lanka's Tamil who have also "fought" for having a part Sri Lanka independent, too.  Yeah sure
How about recognizing the Kurdish nation in Turkey too, since there is the PKK there.  Yeah sure
 
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OA260
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:15 pm



Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 2):
Unfortunately this is only an exploitation of the Kosovo precedent

Yep . Very true but whats good for one is good for the other . If the majority of ethnic Russians want Independence than based on Kosovo it must be their right and the West must stop their hypocrisy..
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:15 pm



Quoting Acheron (Reply 4):
If so, maybe we should also recognize Basque Country independence since terrorism is valid.
Maybe doing the same for Sri Lanka's Tamil who have also "fought" for having a part Sri Lanka independent, too.
How about recognizing the Kurdish nation in Turkey too, since there is the PKK there.

If those countries don't do Russia's bidding, they just might get some new recognition Wink
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:27 pm



Quoting OA260 (Reply 5):
the West must stop their hypocrisy..

The awkward position that Russia puts itself into will be much worse than the West's "hypocrisy".
 
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Asturias
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:29 pm



Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 2):
Unfortunately this is only an exploitation of the Kosovo precedent.

It is indeed -- I have never seen anything as politically stupid as that little maneuver by western politicians. I'm used to cringing at the dumb things they sometimes manage to make, but in the case of Kosovo I rolled my eyes as well.

Pre-empetive independence is the new pre-empetive war. Which was stupid enough to begin with.

asturias
 
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OA260
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:31 pm



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
The awkward position that Russia puts itself into will be much worse than the West's "hypocrisy".

Only time will tell. But its funny how alot of Western leaders have been quite muted on it so far. Maybe they are laying low .

Quoting Acheron (Reply 4):
or we forgot about Beslan and similar situations already?.

Beslan should never be forgotten. It was one of the lowest and most cowardly attacks on innocent children.
 
ALexeu
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:15 pm

Don't forget that South Ossetia and Abkhazia have much more rights to be independent than Kosovo. The creation of Kosovo is obviously a creation of a NATO state.

I am somehow happy to see 2 new countries... unless Medvedev decides not to recognize them.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 3):
Just wait how long it takes until the two provinces have a referndum to join Russia. Next will be the Crimean peninsula

South Ossetia is more likely to join Russia, while I doubt that Abkhazia will.
Both S.O. and Abkhazia recognize Pridnjestrovlje and Nagorno-Karabakh, so perhaps we may see some new countries as well.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 5):
Kosovo it must be their right and the West must stop their hypocrisy.

Yep, I am sick of it. Especially when I hear Mr. Bush saying that Georgia's territorial integrity must be respected, while Kosovo is a ''unique case'' and a ''neighbor of Serbia''. Triple standards.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Osseti

Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:07 pm

Quote:
Neither Russia nor the United Nations currently recognize either region as independent

Well, now Russia does. I don't see the point of this comment from the article.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 3):
Just wait how long it takes until the two provinces have a referndum to join Russia.

Yeah, but as long as. . .

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 3):
On the other hand, if it is a genuine referendum among the Ossetians and Abchasians (who have AFAIK no history of a population exchange in the past), then the selfdetermination of the peoples should rank above the right of territorial integrityof a country.

Then no trouble, as well as if they decide to dump Russia later too.

[Edited 2008-08-25 16:11:14]
 
PPVRA
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:32 pm



Quoting Acheron (Reply 4):
Hmm, wouldn't that be recognizing terrorism as valid means of fighting?. After all, the chechens "fought" their "independence" by means of terrorism, or we forgot about Beslan and similar situations already?.

So all Chechens are terrorists?

Give Chechens their independence, throw those involved with terrorism in jail.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:39 pm

Yes I wonder why they did not recognize Chechnya while at it?

I guess it simply was not convenient to use the same logic to benefit the independence wanting people of that region.
 
iliribdl
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:07 am



Quoting PSA727 (Reply 1):
How does Russia feel about Catalunya in Spain?

Exactly. Or how about Chechnya? Why can't they be independent? If Russia cares so much about people and freedom let the Chechens rule themselves.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 9):
Beslan should never be forgotten. It was one of the lowest and most cowardly attacks on innocent children.

Beslan was the aftermath of Russian aggression. The fault falls directly to the Russian govt. There's no other way to look at it.

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 10):
Don't forget that South Ossetia and Abkhazia have much more rights to be independent than Kosovo. The creation of Kosovo is obviously a creation of a NATO state.

Of course Alex, especially S. Ossetia with its 70,000 people.  Wink

They have a right but the Albanians in Kosovo which were ethnically cleansed for years don't have a right?

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 10):
Kosovo is a ''unique case'' and a ''neighbor of Serbia''

You have to get used to that. Kosovo is a neighbor to Serbia just like Montenegro, just like Bosnia, etc.

It's very simple.
 
Scotty
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:42 am

There is probably less reason for Kosovo to be independent than there is for South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

I can envisage that South and North Ossetia may merge in future and become a unitary state and wish to withdraw from Russia, setting up an independent Ossetia - this may create another Chechnya situation. Having failed to recognise South Ossetia, what would the west do then?
 
ALexeu
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:25 am



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 14):
Of course Alex, especially S. Ossetia with its 70,000 people. Wink

They have a right but the Albanians in Kosovo which were ethnically cleansed for years don't have a right?

Abkhazia and South Ossetia were never de facto part of Georgia, while Kosovo was (or is) part of Serbia, and don't forget resolution 1244. Even in Soviet times, both republic had their own systems, while de jure they were part of Georgian SSR. Georgia unilaterally declared independence from USSR.

My friend, it's true that Serbs done nonhuman things to Albanians, but do you really think that the west cares about Albanians or did they do that because of their own interests?
 
bravo45
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:30 am

Okay so All those Russian atrocities weren't enough for ANYTHING and just one Russian action now makes support of Chechen independence so popular now. It makes me sick!!

Quoting Acheron (Reply 4):
or we forgot about Beslan and similar situations already?.

Oh! Great memory you have. I am sure all those centuries before Beslan is just a total blank. Remember Dresden or Hamburg or Tokyo or Hiroshima and Nagasaki BTW?

Quoting Acheron (Reply 4):
we should also recognize Basque Country



Quoting Acheron (Reply 4):
same for Sri Lanka's Tamil

Already recognised Kosovo, haven't we? I pray for its people the west will just as easily let Kosovo down as they did with Georgia.

Hypocrisy all around. No one in this case have moral ground. Not Georgia not Russia not the west, God help the people of those places involved.
 
JoKeR
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:42 am



Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 2):
Unfortunately this is only an exploitation of the Kosovo precedent.

And its only the begging. Now Georgians feel what we felt when the US recognized Kosovo. Humiliation, double-standards and injustice.

Pandora's box has now been swung open and many more regions in the world are rubbing their hands and planning to follow the example of the three youngest "states" in the world.

"US planted the seed, now they have to eat the wheat".
 
bravo45
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:44 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 12):
So all Chechens are terrorists?

Give Chechens their independence, throw those involved with terrorism in jail.

 checkmark 

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 14):
Quoting OA260 (Reply 9):
Beslan should never be forgotten. It was one of the lowest and most cowardly attacks on innocent children.

Beslan was the aftermath of Russian aggression. The fault falls directly to the Russian govt. There's no other way to look at it.

 checkmark  And while Beslan won't be forgotten, all that took place in Chechnya has virtually remained unknown let alone 'not be forgotten'.

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 16):
My friend, it's true that Serbs done nonhuman things to Albanians, but do you really think that the west cares about Albanians or did they do that because of their own interests?

I am with you, the west never really cared while atrocities were being committed back then so nothing will make me believe they care now. And further more they don't even care about Georgia either, as evident by their inaction. But I also feel legal legitimate and mutually recognised independence would be the best thing for Kosovo if a deal to have Serbia and Kosovo be a part of the EU at the same time, be made or something similar. EU makes borders pretty much a formality anyway especially considering that Kosovo has not been under Serbian rule for sometime now.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:46 pm



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
The awkward position that Russia puts itself into will be much worse than the West's "hypocrisy".

The catch is that neither can claim moral authority to complain about the actions of the other. EU+US created Kosovo - a mafia-governed "country" with 60% unemployment rate, no viable economy, unable to sustain itself and GDP on the level of subsaharan Africa.
The irony of the whole Kosovo affair is that ambitions of Greater Serbia were (rightfully) suppressed zet with a huge delay only to facilitate ambitions of "Greater Albania" as a fallout of that.
It's no different than Georgia being dismembered with the assistance of Russia by establishing independent "countries" of 70,000.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:09 pm



Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
Russian lawmakers asked President Dmitry Medvedev

Sheesh.....for a minute I thought you said "Russian lawnmowers."


 Wink
 
ALexeu
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:18 pm

It's official now, Russian Federation has recognize South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent, sovereign countries.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/eu...e/2008/08/2008826111812549735.html
 
JoKeR
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:29 pm



Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 20):
The irony of the whole Kosovo affair is that ambitions of Greater Serbia were (rightfully) suppressed zet with a huge delay only to facilitate ambitions of "Greater Albania" as a fallout of that.

Ahhhh, wrooong, back to history lessons for you.
 
slz396
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:43 pm

Indeed, the Russian President has just signed the Presidential decree formally recognizing two new independent states: Abkhazia and South Ossetia!

Other pro-Russia countries are set to follow suit soon...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7582181.stm

Kosovo really set a precedent so it seems!

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 1):
This brings no significance to the matter until the U.N. recognizes them as independent nations.

Yes AND No.

For instance: Russia will guarantee the military safety and Independence of these 2 new independent countries, just like the US does in Iceland, so if anybody (Georgia or NATO) thinks it need to step in to bring back these 2 countries home, Russia will logically claim their allies have been attacked and refer to the bilateral agreement between the Russian Federation and the 2 new countries to simply take out the aggressor completely. Now, will the Georgian president try it again and risk his entire country over it?

I think Georgia effectively became a lot smaller today, even if the West won't recognise it officially, just like Serbia did when it lost Kosovo after its unilateral recognition by the West. A recognition which is not recognized by the UN or any other international institution either, but still has great significance, as we can see today...

Who'll be next to the ever growing list of new 'independent' countries, recognized by only a handful of 'real' independent countries? The Caucasus is full of ethnic minorities (50!). Let the worms emerge from their can... and the fighting begin!

Another example of the total mess unilateral US foreign policy has set the world up with for the coming decades!

[Edited 2008-08-26 07:03:23]
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:00 pm



Quoting JoKeR (Reply 18):
Pandora's box has now been swung open and many more regions in the world are rubbing their hands and planning to follow the example of the three youngest "states" in the world.

Russia had warned that if Kosovo separated from Serbia they would let some regions of the CIS become independent. I wonder what will happen with Moldova and Crimea.

I think you are right. After they let Kosovo be their own country I don't see why others could not do the same thing. It's just out of simple logic.

Euskadi and Corsica should go their own way and Seborga should be recognized by Italy as an independent principality.
 
bravo45
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:07 pm

Question: Had Russia recognised Kosovo yet?

Will Russia now put forth the proposal to accept Kosovo if the west accepts these two? Personally I think that will be a huge step to put the genie back in the bottle. Or in order to make it even the west can demand Chechnya, a right thing for the wrong reasons. But then again, I guess I am dreaming...
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:31 pm



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 24):
Another example of the total mess unilateral US foreign policy has set the world up with for the coming decades!

Before you get your panties all wet with typical euroleftist anti-US drivel don't forget that the EUrabia is just as guilty of creating the Kosovo mess.
 
JoKeR
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:34 pm



Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 27):

Before you get your panties all wet with typical euroleftist anti-US drivel don't forget that the EUrabia is just as guilty of creating the Kosovo mess.

I share your sentiment, but US did take a bugger role simply because the EU is still regrettably immature and weak to make concrete decision on its own and lead by example, even on its own continent.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 pm



Quoting JoKeR (Reply 28):
EU is still regrettably immature and weak to make concrete decision on its own and lead by example, even on its own continent

It arguably let Russia slowly grab it by the cajones by controlling a large amount of the EU's energy supply.
 
victrola
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:20 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 10):
Don't forget that South Ossetia and Abkhazia have much more rights to be independent than Kosovo. The creation of Kosovo is obviously a creation of a NATO state



Quoting Scotty (Reply 15):
There is probably less reason for Kosovo to be independent than there is for South Ossetia and Abkhazia

Kosovo is over 90% ethnic Albanian. They have a different language, culture, and religion than Serbia. Serbia needs to get over Kosovo and move on.

As far as South Ossetia and Abkazia are concerned, I see no reason that they shouldn't be independent either.

I say congratultions to Kosovo, South Ossetia, and Abkazia.
 
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OA260
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:25 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 10):
Yep, I am sick of it. Especially when I hear Mr. Bush saying that Georgia's territorial integrity must be respected, while Kosovo is a ''unique case'' and a ''neighbor of Serbia''. Triple standards.


Exactly , its really sickening. If the UN dont regognise these then Kosovo must be put back to Serbia.

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 14):
Beslan was the aftermath of Russian aggression

Wrong. Beslan was the work of evil terrorists who used children to try to make their warped cause get back into the media. Reminds me of another group in the Balkans.

Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 14):
They have a right but the Albanians in Kosovo which were ethnically cleansed for years don't have a right?

Well if Kosovo has a right to independance then the ethnic Russians certainly do.

Quoting Scotty (Reply 15):
There is probably less reason for Kosovo to be independent than there is for South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 
 
ALexeu
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:52 pm

The next country to recognize S/O and Abkhazia is Belarus, although it's not official now. It didn't surprise me at all.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 31):
Exactly , its really sickening. If the UN dont regognise these then Kosovo must be put back to Serbia.

Just check out the comments of other countries. All countries that have recognized Kosovo, are supporting Georgia's territorial integrity.
 
ALexeu
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:53 pm



Quoting Victrola (Reply 30):
Kosovo is over 90% ethnic Albanian. They have a different language, culture, and religion than Serbia. Serbia needs to get over Kosovo and move on.

It's sad to hear that from a country that bombed Serbia in order to create Kosovo.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:53 pm

By recognising these regions, Russia can set up navy bases in the ports of Abkhasia and Poti.

This will strengthen Russia's military might.


When the Soviet Union fell, Russia lost all it's deep sea ports south of the arctic. They still have navy bases in Ukraine, but only til 2017.

http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2008/08/26/544862.html
 
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OA260
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:00 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 32):
All countries that have recognized Kosovo, are supporting Georgia's territorial integrity.

Welcome to the world of hypocrisy. Ms Rice made a statement tonight saying the USA would veto any such move at the UN . Seems not so long ago they were putting down Russia over such actions.

A Russian analyst who did not actually support Russia tonight said that Russia has seen the USA ignore the wishes of various international organisations so its hardly surprising Russia does not listen to them.

Hopefully November will see a change of US government and policy because at the moment it sucks.
 
victrola
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:55 pm



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 34):
It's sad to hear that from a country that bombed Serbia in order to create Kosovo.

After what the Serbs did in Bosnia, is it any wonder nobody wants to be ruled by them. Face it, 90% of the population of Kosovo is not Serbian, is not Orthodox Christian, prefer to speak Albanian rather than Serbo-Croatian, and want nothing to do with Serbia.
 
Aither
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:05 pm



Quoting Victrola (Reply 36):
After what the Serbs did in Bosnia, is it any wonder nobody wants to be ruled by them. Face it, 90% of the population of Kosovo is not Serbian, is not Orthodox Christian, prefer to speak Albanian rather than Serbo-Croatian, and want nothing to do with Serbia.

In 20 years form now people in California could ask to become part of a great Mexican state...

What would you say ?
 
victrola
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:18 pm



Quoting Aither (Reply 37):
In 20 years form now people in California could ask to become part of a great Mexican state...

What would you say ?

This is a very unlikely secnario. First of all the Mexicans are coming up here precisely to get away from Mexico and its problems. Secondly, within 2 generations immigrants from Mexico are fully assimilated into United States culture and usually don't even speak Spahish anymore.They may have a Chicano identity. However this is something distinct from being Mexican.

That being said, If a majority of Californians, or any other state wanted to break away, I would say let them go. What would trying to prevent this by force acomplish? Far better to let them go than have a war like they experienced in the Balkans in the '90s.

The breakup of a country need not be a catastrophe. Look at the expample of the Czechs and Slovaks. Nobody died there and the two countries have cordial relations.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:29 pm



Quoting Victrola (Reply 36):
Quoting Mortyman (Reply 34):
It's sad to hear that from a country that bombed Serbia in order to create Kosovo.

After what the Serbs did in Bosnia, is it any wonder nobody wants to be ruled by them. Face it, 90% of the population of Kosovo is not Serbian, is not Orthodox Christian, prefer to speak Albanian rather than Serbo-Croatian, and want nothing to do with Serbia.

How come you have put this quote to my name ? I have never made this quotation
 
Aither
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:37 pm



Quoting Victrola (Reply 38):
That being said, If a majority of Californians, or any other state wanted to break away, I would say let them go. What would trying to prevent this by force acomplish? Far better to let them go than have a war like they experienced in the Balkans in the '90s.

The breakup of a country need not be a catastrophe. Look at the expample of the Czechs and Slovaks. Nobody died there and the two countries have cordial relations.

OK so let imagine your family has been living in a place for generations but due to large immigration and people not assimilating one day they say ok, now we rule the place and make new laws, educations and culture that is different. On top of that, they are more likely to be nationalists and will do everything they can to make you leave.

Option 1 : you let them go and in 100 years nothing will be left of your country.
Option 2 : you fight and say ok, this is my country with my rules, if you're not happy with that go back where you come from.

I'll go for Option 2 : my ancestors built my place, my country, my laws. So I'm going to fight for this. It's not just about territory, it's about surviving.

Czechs and Slovaks is a totally different story, they were artificially united, it was never a single country.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:28 am

Russia with its vast energy resources is hardly worried about a war with NATO and other countries. Europe gets approximately half of its energy from Russia, so Putin holds all of the cards in that respect. Control of energy transit is an issue since Russia's goal is to establish itself as the primary energy producer for Europe. Controlling the Georgian oil and natural gas pipelines, or at least being able to strongly influence them, would be a major step toward accomphishing that goal.

Comrades Medvedev and Putin don't really want a war with the West, because their designer clothes and expensive cars are all Western, their vacations are taken there, their planes are made there, the children of their KGB and oligarch cronies are educated there. Besides a war of military might and energy resources, this war was about the Russian leaders and their friends fight against democratic forces that could force them from power. Putin's autocratic rule hangs in the balance because if democracy gets to the doorstep of Russia - he and his cronies are afraid that if democracy continues to spread amongst Russia's neighbors - democracy will spontaneously re-ignite within Russia. The danger to the Putin-ocracy - and the threat from Georgia - is the proximity of freedom to Russia's borders.

Russia planned the timing of the attack during the Olympics by lighting the fuse to the conflict to coincide with the Games. The Games had distracted the world's attention. The Georgian government was wrong to attack its own people, but Russia had a great deal of influence in stoking the coals in South Ossetia in the first place by giving the Ossetians and Abhazians RUSSIAN identity documents and passports. The Georgian military, rightly or wrongly, felt that they had been backed into a corner and had no choice but to fight back.

One thing to remember - South Ossetia is within 50 miles of the Georgian capital of Tbilisi. By controlling South Ossetia and Abhazia territory, the Russian military is within minutes of the capital. This fact alone scares the hell out of the Georgian people because they have no reason to trust the Russians, given the Russian's historical territorial claims to Georgia.

Furthermore, by controlling South Ossetia, the Russians control the strategically important Roki tunnel through the Caucasus Mountains. By controlling Abhazian territory, the Russian navy gains unlimited warm water access to the Black Sea without any oversight from Ukraine, which it desperately desires.

If democracy in Iraq is successful and Ukraine maintains their new-found democracy, it can be assumed that more nations in the former Soviet central Asia will follow. That is the real threat to those in political power in Russian society. The Russian people are becoming more and more isolated from the world of democratic processes and personal freedom. Aided by the real threat of abandoning any cooperative efforts with Russua by the EU and NATO alliance nations, the Russian government's "irrational actions" will only further isolate Russia.

Finally, the invasion of Georgia has provide Putin with a manner to showcase the Russian military's new-found strength and their ability to execute a large scale assault on any nearby nation. It fuels the fires of Russian ultra-nationalism. Look at how far into Georgia they quickly established control of sea ports, transportation routes, energy corridors, and key cities! The Russian retreat will almost certainly only go as far as the republics of which they originally sought to "liberate" (and then de facto control) - South Ossetia and Abhazia. And NATO is not in a position to force them from these territories, IMHO.
 
Gman94
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:49 am

I don't know why we don't call Russia's bluff and take them up on their 'We're not scared of you stance'. A nice fleet of brand new Raptor's and Typhoon's would take out the Russian Air Force pretty sharpish and any Western army would make mincemeat out of their conscripts who would run away back to Russia as soon as the going got tough. Putinistan is getting far to big for it's boots and needs to be taken down a peg or two, we shouldn't allow them to hold the world to ransom,
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:29 am



Quoting OA260 (Reply 35):
A Russian analyst who did not actually support Russia tonight said that Russia has seen the USA ignore the wishes of various international organisations so its hardly surprising Russia does not listen to them.

That's life in the big city. Your choices aren't always black and white, and this choice is going to hurt Russia in the long term more than anyone else.

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 41):
The Georgian government was wrong to attack its own people, but Russia had a great deal of influence in stoking the coals in South Ossetia in the first place by giving the Ossetians and Abhazians RUSSIAN identity documents and passports

Russia wrote the script, paid the actors, and built the set. Georgia just fell for the trap that Russia had been setting up for months if not years.
 
OlegShv
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Osseti

Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:44 am

I think this article in Times has some very wise thoughts regarding current situation of affairs between the West and Russia. Definitely worth a read.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...st_contributors/article4607471.ece
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:03 am



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 43):
Russia wrote the script, paid the actors, and built the set. Georgia just fell for the trap that Russia had been setting up for months if not years.

 checkmark 

Indeed there are many people that are highly knowledgable in Russian and Eurasian politics that feel that same way. Here's just one quote from the Heritage Foundation:

"Tskhinvali (South Ossetia's provincial city) suffered severe damage, thus providing the pretext for Moscow's long-planned invasion of Georgia. As Russia responded with overwhelming force, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin flew from the Beijing Olympics to Vladikavkaz (the capital city of North Ossetia), taking control of the military operations. Putin sidelined his successor, Dmitry Medvedev, thereby leaving no doubt as to who is in charge."

Source: http://www.heritage.org/Research/RussiaandEurasia/wm2017.cfm
 
JoKeR
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:19 am



Quoting Victrola (Reply 36):
Face it, 90% of the population of Kosovo is not Serbian, is not Orthodox Christian, prefer to speak Albanian rather than Serbo-Croatian, and want nothing to do with Serbia.

And so they should have moved to Albania in that case, afterall Albania is for the Albanians, the same way Serbia is for the Serbs. Imagine if millions of Turks felt the same in Germany, would Berlin simply say "Ok, here's your own Turkish state on German soil, go on, make your country".
 
miamix707
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Osseti

Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:59 am



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 24):
Other pro-Russia countries are set to follow suit soon...

...so these two are "countries" already? That was fast.. I can't think of too many "pro-Russian" countries out there, other than the rogue states in the ME that Russia has been selling weapons to.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 43):
Russia wrote the script, paid the actors, and built the set. Georgia just fell for the trap that Russia had been setting up for months if not years.

 checkmark 

Putin and his ex communists want their glory days back, nice... They want to show off how their empire is powerful once again, and so far doing a great job. Bush really proved to be an idiot "when he looked into his eyes" then. Too bad nobody had the balls to send troops and see if this thug of Putin would've dared to humiliate the democratic state of Georgia.
 
Acheron
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:22 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 12):
So all Chechens are terrorists?

No, but I think the chechen cause lost credibility when they resorted to terrorism backed by who was then "president" of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria(the name given to the country they were attempting to create). And by recognizing chechnya, then the west would be also recognizing terrorism or attacks on civilians as a valid means of fighting for "independence", indirectly validating organizations such as ETA, Tamil Tigers, PKK, etc.

Or the kids in Beslan and the civilians Moscow theater had anything to do with the Kremlim's policy towards Chechnya?.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 17):

Oh! Great memory you have. I am sure all those centuries before Beslan is just a total blank. Remember Dresden or Hamburg or Tokyo or Hiroshima and Nagasaki BTW?

I fail to see your point here and how it relates to what I was saying.  Confused
Please, elaborate.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 17):
Hypocrisy all around. No one in this case have moral ground. Not Georgia not Russia not the west, God help the people of those places involved.

Unfortunately that is how it is, what we are watching is the superpowers playing with each other at the expense of those country who don't have the power(be it economic, military or industrial) to stand up against them in any meaningful manner, and as such, we are pretty much at the mercy of their will and whims.


This whole mess started because someone along the chain of command (be it in Tbilisi, Washington D.C.or Brussels) understimated the russians(maybe someone thought that Putin's Russia was still the same Russia of Yeltzin) and also understimated the consequences of recognizing Kosovo's independence(and blew up on their faces).

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 42):

Russia is not your typical off-the-mill loud-mouth little country that we have been used to see invaded by the US in the last 2 decades, which renders your "analysis" on how to deal with Russia pretty moot. And what you are asking for is pretty much WW3 which I think shows you have no idea of the forces at play here and think that this is some sort of video game where that with the better equipment is going to win.
 
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OA260
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RE: Russian Lawmakers Recognize Abkhazia, S Ossetia

Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:43 am



Quoting Victrola (Reply 36):
After what the Serbs did in Bosnia, is it any wonder nobody wants to be ruled by them.

Some Iraqis say the same about other countries ruling them !

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 43):
Georgia just fell for the trap that Russia had been setting up for months if not years.

Lets get back to facts , the Georgians started this current conflict and tried to call Russia's bluff. They knew what they were doing.

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