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OA260
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New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:22 am

Any Anetters affected by this ??

Police in New Orleans will be issuing a stark warning to residents who fail to flee the onrush of Hurricane Gustav: Get out now or you are on your own.

The hurricane strengthened to force two as it swirled towards the Cayman Islands and the Gulf of Mexico.

It has already killed at least 77 people in the Dominican Republic, Haiti and Jamaica.

Latest forecasts make it increasingly clear that New Orleans will be hit by early next week, raising the likelihood of a full-scale evacuation as soon as Sunday morning.

Police with bullhorns plan to go from street to street to tell citizens that there will be no shelter of last resort and the doors to the Superdome will be locked.

The city's emergency preparedness director, Jerry Sneed, has warned those who ignore orders to leave that they must accept "all responsibility for themselves and their loved ones."

The storm is currently heading towards heated waters south of Cuba where it could absorb enough energy to strengthen into a major hurricane.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wor...Islands%2BAnd%2BGulf%2BOf%2BMexico
 
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moo
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:33 am



Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):
Police in New Orleans will be issuing a stark warning to residents who fail to flee the onrush of Hurricane Gustav: Get out now or you are on your own.

*sigh* people would think that the last time was a big enough warning - you can't tame nature completely, and building large residential areas in such vulnerable areas is simply stupid.

How many more times will it take?
 
MOBflyer
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:19 pm

The Mississippi Gulf Coast is also having evacuations, but those are voluntary, and only for those in FEMA housing.

Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama have all declared states of emergencies and have activated their respective National Guards.
 
HOMER71
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:21 pm

As have Texas - 61 counties declared...
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NIKV69
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:32 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 1):
*sigh* people would think that the last time was a big enough warning - you can't tame nature completely, and building large residential areas in such vulnerable areas is simply stupid.

How many more times will it take?

Spot on, if this thing grows and is headed that way get out please. You don't stand much chance. A horrible geographical location for this.
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plateman
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:43 pm

I head that one of my friends at Tulane is being evacuated again (was there for Katrina too)
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OA260
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:14 pm

Gulf Coast residents flee deadly Gustav

BELLE CHASE, Louisiana (CNN) -- As Hurricane Gustav intensified on its projected path to the Gulf Coast -- ravaged in 2005 by Hurricanes Katrina and Rita -- residents packed and fled inland.

Gustav neared Cuba's western tip Saturday, packing winds close to 120 mph. The storm could reach the U.S. Gulf coast late Monday or Tuesday, as a Category 3 or strengthen to a Category 4, the National Hurricane Center said.

Hurricanes are ranked 1-5 in intensity on the Saffir-Simpson scale. A Category 3 hurricane has sustained winds from 111 to 130 mph and is capable of causing extensive damage. A Category 4 has winds of 131 to 155 mph and can cause extreme damage.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/weather/08/30/gustav.prepare/index.html

Looks like its getting quite bad .
 
BRJ
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:29 pm

Hello from New Orleans!!
I am on the northsore of the lake, and as of now, we have not been forced to evacuate. So staying here for now, unless they make it mandatory.

I actually flew in yesterday afternoon for some personal matters next week. From here, but live in Atlanta now.

Current plans are for the airport to be closed at 6pm tomorrow evening. As of today, only passengers with proof of reservations are being allowed inside the airport.
Contra-flow on our interstates will bein at 6am tomorrow morning (Sunday).

Truth is, it's still too early to tell where the storm will make landfall.
Downtown is starting to close down too - I have friends that were in town, and their hotel closed and forced everyone out today. They are having to drive back to Atlanta, as Delta is telling them that they will have to pay the fare difference for changing their tickets to today instead of their original travel dates.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:34 pm

Well, I'm up in ATL, and my family is en route to stay with me for a few days...or however long they need to. What concerns me is the slight Northward jog that the storm has taken recently. 50 miles in either direction would make a huge difference on how the impact of the storm is to New Orleans proper. Hopefully, this thing will lose some of its punch when it makes landfall, but you just never know with these damn storms. I was in NOLA a few days ago and I can tell you that the state and local officials are "getting it right" this time around as far as the current and planned evacuations go. I'm just hoping for the best....but I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't sick to my stomach with nervousness and anxiety....seems like a bad case of deja vu thus far.
 
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:42 pm

Gustav is now a Cat 4 with winds at 145mph.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:44 pm

What about security? Last time IIRC there were gangs out in the streets en masse after the hurricane to loot abadoned buildings and shops. Is there better protection around this time?

Jan
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:47 pm

I just saw on the news that I-10 west is already jamming up with cars.....

Will FEMA come to Houston again with the infamous VISA cards?

I also saw a news story about several people who are almost finished with their rebuilt homes and now the possibility of this. You gotta feel really sorry for them!
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
MSYtristar
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:04 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 10):
What about security? Last time IIRC there were gangs out in the streets en masse after the hurricane to loot abadoned buildings and shops. Is there better protection around this time?

The entire NOPD along with National Guard troops will be fanning out throughout the city to protect homes and businesses. They are being housed in 5 safe houses around the area and will spread out throughout the city once the winds go below 50 mph. So, they'll do the best they can.
 
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OA260
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:11 pm

The US National Hurricane center has warned that this is a ''extremely dangerous'' hurricane and could be a Cat : 5 by the time it hits the US .

Residents in Havana , Cuba being evacuated.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:21 pm



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 12):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 10):
What about security? Last time IIRC there were gangs out in the streets en masse after the hurricane to loot abadoned buildings and shops. Is there better protection around this time?

The entire NOPD along with National Guard troops will be fanning out throughout the city to protect homes and businesses. They are being housed in 5 safe houses around the area and will spread out throughout the city once the winds go below 50 mph. So, they'll do the best they can.

What are their rules of engagement? Martial law with summary execution after being caught looting?

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
MSYtristar
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:28 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 14):
What are their rules of engagement? Martial law with summary execution after being caught looting?

I really have no idea.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 13):
could be a Cat : 5 by the time it hits the US .

The Gulf waters closer to shore are somewhat cooler (ie, still warm, but not as warm deep down in the water) so the thinking is that it could weaken to a 3 when it hits. But it doesn't really matter. The storm surge from a strong 3 storm would devastate numerous communities in SE Louisiana.

[Edited 2008-08-30 12:30:00]
 
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OA260
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:52 pm



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 15):
The storm surge from a strong 3 storm would devastate numerous communities in SE Louisiana.

Hopefully it will weaken and avert some of the major damage expected.

Latest is ::

# NEW: Hurricane watch issued from southeastern Texas to Alabama-Florida border
# Thousands evacuating Gulf Coast on buses, trains
# Gustav's winds were nearly 150 mph as it gets ready to slam Cuba
# Hurricane center calls Gustav "extremely dangerous"

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/weather/08/30/gustav.prepare/index.html
 
iowaman
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:24 am

Yay!! We can send a few more billion dollars down there and it can be all flooded and blown away again in a few years. What a great idea it is to build a city right by the ocean below sea level!  Smile
 
Super80DFW
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:30 am

Hurricane Gustav weakened slightly while over Cuba. Now with winds nearing 140 mph, and still a CAT 4. Expect the storm to strengthen into a CAT 5 overnight. On current track, Gustav will make landfall as a CAT 4 on coastal area near Houma, Louisiana; then over Avery Island, Home of McIlhenny's Tabasco Pepper Sauce.

It looks like we might get wet here in the Metroplex by Thursday Evening.
 
Cadet57
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:35 am



Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 18):
then over Avery Island, Home of McIlhenny's Tabasco Pepper Sauce.

I predict Tabasco sauce to cost 15.00 a bottle after this.  duck 

But seriously. My heart goes out to all those in Nola and Louisiana. I mentioned in another thread that I traveled there a couple years ago to help out, and if its this bad, I'll be back this winter to do it again. Such a great city.
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Super80DFW
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:48 am



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 19):

Well, I wouldn't have known if I hadn't gone there last month. The Tabasco Sauce you get in the store now is sauce that was fermenting during Katrina, and in a few months, Hurricane Rita. I hope their warehouse doesn't flood.
 
stratosphere
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:55 am

I was reading a story interviewing one of the residents who had just finished rebuilding after Katrina and she got choked up and said " I know it's selfish but it needs to go west we have paid our dues." I have to admit I guess if I had been through what they have been through I would feel that way also..You don't want to wish this on anyone but if the storm is going to hit somewhere even I have to admit that they don't need a direct hit again after just recovering from the last one..
 
Delta767300ER
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 4:13 am

I really feel bad for the residents of the New Orleans Area. They cant seem to buy a break. A couple of my family members arrived here in Orlando from Slidell, LA today escaping the storm.

Hurricane Katrina was a CAT 3 during landfall in LA and anything near that or worse will cause total devastation. I really hope that everyone evacuates from the area.

I've been through numerous Hurricanes in Florida but never had to live with the storm surge.


-Delta767300ER
 
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 4:52 am

And I-10 is jammed from New Orleans to Houston. Our local news tonight reports that by morning we will have 45,000 refugees from New Orleans. They also stated that there are still hotel rooms available.

It does seem that they are doing a pretty good job. trying to keep families together. Shipping people to shelters in Shreveport, Monroe, Jackson, etc. Also banding each person so they don't get lost. Even better they are banding all the evacuated animals with their owners names and addresses. And even Nogin is helping by reminding people that there will not be any shelters in the city.

So far it looks like all is being conducted in a calm, orderly manner. Well, except for the gas stations that are running out of gasoline on I-10.
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OA260
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:43 am



'Mother of all storms' heads for Gulf Coast
A mass evacuation is under way along the Gulf Coast amid fears that Hurricane Gustav could strengthen by the time it makes landfall in the U.S. The mayor of New Orleans, which was devastated by Hurricane Katrina in 2005, called Gustav "the mother of all storms" and warned residents: "You need to be scared."

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/weather/08/31/gustav/index.html
 
MSYtristar
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:03 am

The path has definetely shifted more towards the New Orleans area....just by 30 miles or so it seems...but those are key miles. Local NOLA weather reporter Bob Breck has his weather radar VIPER showing a near direct hit to the city...pretty similar to the path Camille took. Hopefully that turns out to be wrong.

Incidentally, thanks to everyone for keeping the people of the Gulf Coast in your thoughts and prayers.
 
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OA260
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:45 am



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 25):
Bob Breck has his weather radar VIPER showing a near direct hit to the city...pretty similar to the path Camille took. Hopefully that turns out to be wrong.

Thats sad but I have heard these things can take a different course suddenly. Lets hope for that .
 
MSYtristar
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:02 pm

Watching a live weather broadcast on theneworleanschannel.com and it doesn't look too good. The pressure of the storm is dropping rapidly and it's expected to increase in strength today. Rain bands are already just off of the LA coast. 19-30 feet seas to the East of the Mississippi River and 19-29 foot seas to the West of the river expected by tonight. Expecting significant damage from storm surge to numerous areas. Expected to dump up to 20 inches of rain throughout Southeast Louisiana.
 
NAV20
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:12 pm

Just to say, best wishes for everyone on the Gulf Coast - I've had many good times there, especially in 'Noo Orlins' (the Levee and Bourbon Street).

Trusting to luck - my eldest son currently lives in Karratha, Western Australia - but so far, pretty well every cyclone (our word for hurricanes) in the region has started off heading straight for his backyard, but has either weakened or turned aside to spend its energy on mostly-open country in the end........

Hoping for the best, guys.........
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
MOBflyer
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:16 pm

Update from MOB: Mobile and Baldwin counties in Alabama are under a hurricane warning. The governor and county have ordered mandatory evacuations for the southernmost portions of both counties, prone to flooding. (Which I reside in) The University of South Alabama and the Mobile County Public School System have yet to announce class cancellations for Tuesday.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:24 pm



Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 29):
Update from MOB:

Stay safe over there. Thanks for the update.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 28):
Hoping for the best, guys.........

Thanks...we all appreciate it!
 
huskyaviation
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:48 pm



Quoting BRJ (Reply 7):
Hello from New Orleans!!
I am on the northsore of the lake, and as of now, we have not been forced to evacuate. So staying here for now, unless they make it mandatory.

So unless it's mandatory, you're not leaving? And you're just a visitor? That doesn't seem particularly bright to me, no offense.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 14):
What are their rules of engagement? Martial law with summary execution after being caught looting?

It's unlikely they will run into the problems they had after Katrina, Jindal and Bush are working much more closely together and as MSYTristar said, they are much more prepared for this event. No one should really be left in the city for starters, and those that do remain may not be alive to do any looting.

There won't be summary executions; but the National Guard (and potentially federal troops later on) will be authorized to make arrests under the emergency powers given to the President by statute.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:51 pm



Quoting Iowaman (Reply 17):
Yay!! We can send a few more billion dollars down there and it can be all flooded and blown away again in a few years. What a great idea it is to build a city right by the ocean below sea level! Smile

BS. Just ask the Dutch and North Sea storms in winter with the accompanying surges can just be as vicious, mainly reinforced through the tidal flats coastline.
But from what I've heard, no matter how much money has been spent in building NO's defenses, the levees and sea walls are quite substandard compared to the defenses reaching from Belgium to the Danish coast.
After the big flood of 1953, the Dutch built a huge system of barriers in the deltas of the Schelde and Rhine rivers. These are normally open to let the water run out, but get closed if flood threaten. The UK has a similar system in the Thames estuary.
Germany greatly improved the North Sea defenses affter the flood of 1962, which inundated large parts of Hamburg.

So far these coastal defenses have been working.
We are not giving up the Netherlands or Norther Germany.
Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
huskyaviation
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:00 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 32):
North Sea storms in winter with the accompanying surges can just be as vicious, mainly reinforced through the tidal flats coastline.

BS. They're not. They may be bad, but it's not a Cat 4 hurricane. Sorry.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 32):
But from what I've heard, no matter how much money has been spent in building NO's defenses, the levees and sea walls are quite substandard compared to the defenses reaching from Belgium to the Danish coast.

After the big flood of 1953, the Dutch built a huge system of barriers in the deltas of the Schelde and Rhine rivers. These are normally open to let the water run out, but get closed if flood threaten. The UK has a similar system in the Thames estuary.

The geography is much, much, much different. NO has water on it on pretty much all sides, and Katrina broke the levees from the lake (North side).
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 4:31 pm



Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 33):
BS. They're not. They may be bad, but it's not a Cat 4 hurricane. Sorry.

Beaufort 12+ plus surges of 6-7 meters (20ft +, if the moon is in the right position for a high tide, the surge might actually be higher )?
Only that there isn't that much rain and the weather is much colder.

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 33):
The geography is much, much, much different. NO has water on it on pretty much all sides, and Katrina broke the levees from the lake (North side).

Don't think so. The water was pressed into the lake from the Gulf through the channels between the lake and the sea. So why wasn't the north side approbiately fortified?

In Europe, coastal defense is a whole network, in the back you usually find older dikes as a last reserve, while up in front the main sea dikes are more than 8 meters high and up to 100 meters wide in cross section. The reason is that a dike needs to have gentle slopes seawards and landwards, so that first the waves on the sea side will be broken and secondly, that water, which might come over the top won't create turbulences on the back,which will wash out material from the dike.

The NO disater of Katrina reminds me of the Dutch flood of 1953 and the Hamburg one of 1962:
In both cases the storm pushed the water up the estuaries of the rivers (the Schelde and Rhine in 1953, the Elbe in 1962), breaking the weaker dikes furher upstream. Now, where the estuary can't be shut off, there are similarly strong dikes along the rivers for about 150 km, up to where there is no danger anymore of the water level rising.

Here is a picture of the "Abslotdijk" which seperates the Ijsselmeer in the Netherlands from the North Sea. The North Sea is on the left, the Ijsselmeer used to be a part of the North Sea and is being slowly pumped empty to gain more land. A friend of mine lives in one of the reclaimed areas. He says that in case of this dike breaking the only dry place of his 2 story house would be the roof.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Abschlussdeich_Blickrichtung_Nord.jpg
Note how big it is compared to the cars.

Here is the development of the German dikes over the centuries. Today the crown is at least 8.5 meters above average sea level (NN)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/K%C3%BCsteningenieurwesen_Deichverst%C3%A4rkung_1.jpg


Here is a typical dike at the German North Sea coast. The sheep keep the grass short. Note again the size of the construction. To the left is the sea, with a strip of land in between, which is intended to be flooded and through it's gentle slope removes energy from the waves. At the foot of the landward side of the dike there is a ditch, which collects water, which has seeped through the dike. It is being conducted to a pumping station and pumped back into the sea.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Wesselburenerkoog_aufm_deich.jpg

This here are the flood gates at the river Eider in Northern Germany. Normallly they are open to allow the river to flow into the North Sea, but during high surges the gates are being closed. The Dutch defenses in the Schelde and Rhine estuaries are much bigger.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Eidersperrwerk_ty20060715r0012451.jpg

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
zanl188
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 4:41 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 34):
Beaufort 12+ plus surges of 6-7 meters (20ft +, if the moon is in the right position for a high tide, the surge might actually be higher )?
Only that there isn't that much rain and the weather is much colder.

So we're not even going to consider the 12"-24" inches of rain, the 130-150MPH winds, or the huge affected area involved with a hurricane of this nature? Lot of good flood control does when the water is picked up at sea and dumped behind any flood protection....
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Mikey711MN
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 4:45 pm

Just a quick note to the MSYtristars, Toms in NO, and other NOLA a.netters...you are all in my thoughts and prayers in the coming days. Thanks for posting to those of you who found safe haven for you and yours.

Sadly, I was scheduled to head there this weekend to continue volunteer rebuilding--an annual effort that, at least last year, included putting a roof on a new house in Musician's Village--but more humbly, it would appear as though the need for this work will continue. I'm truly sorry for that, but you all will always have my help as long as I can offer it.

-Mike
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:17 pm



Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 35):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 34):
Beaufort 12+ plus surges of 6-7 meters (20ft +, if the moon is in the right position for a high tide, the surge might actually be higher )?
Only that there isn't that much rain and the weather is much colder.

So we're not even going to consider the 12"-24" inches of rain, the 130-150MPH winds, or the huge affected area involved with a hurricane of this nature? Lot of good flood control does when the water is picked up at sea and dumped behind any flood protection....

A typical North Sea storm usually affects the whole coast line from France to Denmark, which is not exactly small, also causing massive damage inlands.
Floods occur where the defenses are weakest.
And Beaufort 12+ IS defined as hurricane strength. There is no higher wind strengths defined than Beaufort 12, because at Admiral Beaufort's time no sane sailing ship captain would leave port in such conditions. Wind speeds at Beaufort 12 are defined as bigger than 73 MpH, open ended.


Our storms might not reach the top speeds of your hurricanes, but come very close. And as Baroque has mentioned in the other thread, due to the size of the North Sea, the sea level tends to oscillate, increasing local levels.

The one thing our storms don't have is the high humidity and massive rainfall. There is usually some rainfall, but this is it.

I'm mostly annoyed about the attitude to dump NO, if it gets flooded again.
From what I have heard, pre Katrina, the levees and sea walls were actually BELOW the standard considered the minimum around our coasts, even though the risk is higher.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
MSYtristar
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:22 pm



Quoting Mikey711MN (Reply 36):
I'm truly sorry for that, but you all will always have my help as long as I can offer it.

Please know that everyone in the city (myself included) appreciates your help. When I was with FL I was just amazed at the number of volunteers who came down on a weekly basis to rebuild. Hundreds per week, basically every week...people of all ages. It sort of restored my faith in humanity.

Some potential good news: so far, the storm has not regained Cat 4 status. Hopefully, it will diminish even more before it reaches land. Every little bit helps, especially when it comes to potential storm surge.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:29 pm

Just found this picture of pre-Katrina NO:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../e/e5/New_Orleans_Levee_System.svg

It shows that the maximum height of the levees was 23ft (appr. 7 meters) above normal sea level. Here, since 1979, the minimum is considered 8.5 meters, in some high risk places 9 meters, even though our storms don't reach the force of a hurricane. Maximum sea level during Katrina was IIRC 8.5 meters.

Concerning water in the back (e.g. rain), you'll need a massive pumping capacity, drainage canals and land intentionally to be flooded as a temporary reservoir.
The big flooding of NO only happened after the levees broke at two places. Once water finds a weak spot, the rapid flow will erode the levees from the inside. This is why we have constant dike patrols during surges to catch small penetrations (and I mean trickles of less than a garden hose) to close them up with sandbags before they wash out the core of the dike.

Jan

[Edited 2008-08-31 10:30:51]
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iowaman
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:35 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 32):
BS. Just ask the Dutch and North Sea storms in winter with the accompanying surges can just be as vicious, mainly reinforced through the tidal flats coastline.



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 34):
Beaufort 12+ plus surges of 6-7 meters

As someone else said, what about the wind at 150+ mph, and the 20" of rain predicted to fall?
 
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OA260
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:23 pm

Recent projection here ::

 
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:38 pm

This one is a biiig baaaad storm. I hope those on the path have evacuated. Material things can be found again. A life cannot.

A.netters and your families out there, please stay safe!  pray 
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zanl188
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:13 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 37):

If I'm reading you correctly what you seem to be saying is that the European scale for measuring a storm STOPS right at the point where the Saffir-Simpson hurricane scale STARTS, with Gustav being considerably stronger than that... i.e. Gulf Hurricanes are off the European scale completely....

The heat & humidity North Sea storms lack are exactly the ingredients that give a tropical storm it's punch.....
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:11 pm



Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 43):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 37):

If I'm reading you correctly what you seem to be saying is that the European scale for measuring a storm STOPS right at the point where the Saffir-Simpson hurricane scale STARTS, with Gustav being considerably stronger than that... i.e. Gulf Hurricanes are off the European scale completely....

The heat & humidity North Sea storms lack are exactly the ingredients that give a tropical storm it's punch.....

Don't tell me that you have never heard of the Beaufort scale. It has only been in use since about 200 years and, while it has been developed by a British Royal Navy admiral, it is being in maritime use all over the world.

Still, I wonder why you guys can't do what we did, look in the records about the highest level ever reached and then plan accordingly. This has worked here since 50 years.
Where is the American "can do" spirit?
Or did you all change into businessmen, making everything a financial calculation?

I explained the European coastal defense in detail on another thread. Try coming here during a severe storm. Unlike your hurricanes they also hit far inlands.

Jan
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NoUFO
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:35 pm

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 43):

If I'm reading you correctly what you seem to be saying is that the European scale for measuring a storm STOPS right at the point where the Saffir-Simpson hurricane scale STARTS, with Gustav being considerably stronger than that... i.e. Gulf Hurricanes are off the European scale completely....



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 44):
Still, I wonder why you guys can't do what we did, look in the records about the highest level ever reached and then plan accordingly. This has worked here since 50 years.

I guess you are both right. A Hurricane is a much stronger storm than what we can witness at the North Sea (and I'm from there, so please don't comment on any assumed lack of experience) and a Hurricane brings a lot more rain.

At the same time, Jan is right when he says that the pressure water applies on your levees is certainly not higher than those forces our dikes sometimes have to withstand.
It is possible to protect cities like NO from hurricans, maybe not the roofs from being blown away, but the city from being flooded.
You have fantastic engineers over there, the U.S. is a high-tech country, and when you can manage to build houses that can withstand severe earthquakes, you certainly can protect your cities from Hurricans as well.

The idea of abandoning a city so rich of history like NO for the mere reason that those responsible have failed to address known threats beforehand is upsetting.

Edit: Oh, and stay safe!

[Edited 2008-08-31 15:38:35]
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zanl188
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:58 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 44):
Still, I wonder why you guys can't do what we did, look in the records about the highest level ever reached and then plan accordingly. This has worked here since 50 years.
Where is the American "can do" spirit?

Remember Europe has far, far more recorded history than the U.S.

Rather the people of the gulf coast should prepare their lives and infrastructure as they and their "can do" spirit see fit - if that means a 9m levee then build a 9m levee, if it means moving out of the city then move out of the city, etc....

Where is the European pragmatism and immunity to media hype?

What annoys this gulf coast resident (who has lived in Europe BTW) is ignorance of what a hurricane is, and how much water and energy it contains. There is no comparable wx phenomena in Europe - Too far north, too cool
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NoUFO
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:00 pm



Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 43):
If I'm reading you correctly what you seem to be saying is that the European scale for measuring a storm STOPS right at the point where the Saffir-Simpson hurricane scale STARTS,

No, it does not stop. We had storms with top speeds of 150+ miles/h here, too, but they are fortunately very rare.
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zanl188
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:16 pm



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 45):
The idea of abandoning a city so rich of history like NO for the mere reason that those responsible have failed to address known threats beforehand is upsetting.

For the record I am not advocating abandoning New Orleans. My position is that the people of Louisiana & New Orleans should decide for themselves how their state & city will prepare for natural disasters rather than looking for the Federal Gov't to figure it out for them.

Look at California... They wanted to live the California life and decided to make it work with the earthquakes, fires, mudslides, smog, etc. California is without a doubt the leader in earthquake tech in this country and is certainly world class in that respect - they didn't get that way without some hard lessons though, 1906 comes to mind.

Look at the Dutch. Got hammered by floods in 1953 - they now have a world class flood control system... and they did it largely without big time European Gov't

If the folks in Louisiana decided to go for it I'm sure the remainder of this century will see the state become a leader in the field of hurricane preparedness....
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zanl188
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RE: New Orleans On High Alert And Evacuation

Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:22 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 37):
And Beaufort 12+ IS defined as hurricane strength. There is no higher wind strengths defined than Beaufort 12, because at Admiral Beaufort's time no sane sailing ship captain would leave port in such conditions. Wind speeds at Beaufort 12 are defined as bigger than 73 MpH, open ended.



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 47):
No, it does not stop. We had storms with top speeds of 150+ miles/h here, too, but they are fortunately very rare.

A scale that rates 73MPH in the same category with 500MPH is not terribly helpful for planning purposes..... Please tell us about the European storms that came ashore with 150+ winds....
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