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bill142
Posts: 7867
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:50 pm

RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:37 pm

Again, the FIA is engineering a result. Why do all these things happen towards the end of the season? Nothing ever gets penalised at the beginning of the season. Coincidence? I think not.

Quoting NA (Reply 97):
Mosley is English as much as I know, not Italian.

Who cares about Mosley? It's the people in between him who are most likely the corrupt Italians.
 
BlueElephant
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Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:16 am

RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:52 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 97):
Mosley is English as much as I know, not Italian.

Mosley is English, but has been Quoted as saying that he would act in Ferrari's favor.

I am absolutely convinced...that Hamilton gave back the position to Kimi...and that after giving back that position...he got into Kimi's Tow....I think thats absolutely legitament.

And I am also completely convinced that had it been Kimi trying to pass Hamilton...NOTHING would have happened.

And Either way...in the End...Kimi took the Position Back from Hamilton only to put the car in the wall...so the whole point should really be completely mute, because Hamilton didn't really get any advantange. Had Kimi actually finished in Second behind Hamilton...I would understnad the concern... Ferrari doesn't even really have a case here because their driver put it into the wall...from the first place position.

This is Absolutely ludicrous and if it ends up that Massa wins the Championship..this Race will go down in the history books as one of the most Ferrari Biased decisions/Penalties I will have ever seen.

And now If Hamilton really does win the Championship, I'm going to be Really happy to Rub it into all of my Ferrari Fan Friends' Face.
 
legoguy
Posts: 2981
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:59 pm

RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:38 am



Quoting Moo (Reply 96):
From MacLaren -

Quote:

The McLaren spokesman said: "We looked at all our data, and also made it available to the FIA stewards.

"It showed that, having lifted [off the accelerator], Lewis was 6kph slower than Kimi as they crossed the start-finish line.

"Based on this data, we have no option other than to register our intention to appeal.

Sorry to wade into this topic late (I missed the Grandprix due to Airshow) however, if the above is true then the penalty is bullshit. There is absolutely no way (in my opinion) that any driver can gain 6+ kph in a slip stream along such a short straight, at the speed they were travelling.

Hamilton gained the position when Raikkonen was too conservative on his brakes leading into turn one.

Exciting grandprix by the way. Good gamble by Heidfeld to change into inters. Really paid off well as Sandro mentioned above!
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
BlueElephant
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:55 am



Quoting NA (Reply 97):
That said, I still think all this conspiracy talk is crap. Most of the F1 is English, most teams are from there, and Mosley is English as much as I know, not Italian.

My Friend...Please Allow me to quote from the following Article.
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/241020...errari-most-important-team-f1.html

Quote:

"I use my neutrality with a huge amount of responsibility and stay in close contact with Ferrari to assure them that no British 'mafia' or cartel tries to take advantage of them,"



Quote:

"But should we find it necessary to impose our technical or sporting regulations, then Ferrari is treated like any other team. Should we find irregularities on a Ferrari - like the moveable floor after the Australian Grand Prix - it is removed and banned."

(Please take NOTE....it doesn't say anywhere that Ferrari...should be PUNISHED)

Quote:

"I have known Luca longer and therefore better than Ron. Indeed I've known Ron since 1970, but I became really acquainted with him at the end of the eighties, whereas I have known Luca very well since the beginning of the seventies. My relationship with him is very personal."

Please also keep in Mind...As hard as this may be to believe...Had I felt that Hamilton deserved this penalty....Either...I wouldn't have said anything at all after he lost, or I'd have congratulated the winner.

I would not have been so upset either.

In fact....Kimi drove a beautiful race..and had he won...i'd have been ok with it...with everything...because I know that He'd have deserved to win this race...sorry folks (and Waterpolodan)...I don't think Massa deserved to win this race...Either Kimi...or Hamilton....not Massa...not this time.
 
davestanKSAN
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:45 am



Quoting Sudden (Reply 50):
It starts to get pretty ennoying to see Anthony Hamilton in the garage at every damn race! I mean, can't he just stand at the back of the garage and watch race on a monitor now and then!

It's his bloody son for God's sakes. He is also his manager. I suppose you don't mind when they show Felipe Massa's father at almost every race as well.  sarcastic  Wonder why that is....

Quoting B747forever (Reply 90):
They will never just let this go

Had this happened to Ferrari you would be going mad. It's rubbish.

This penalty is a mockery to the sport. It strips the sport of the pure reasons why the drivers suit up. Why the fans come from hundreds of miles, pay hundreds of Euros (or whatever currency your prefer) and sit through the weather, the long lines, and endure the long weekend. Why the teams work hard, from the engineers back at the factories, to the mechanics working on the cars. This penalty is a slap in the face to all that.

I have seen so much hate for Lewis Hamilton since he entered the sport last year. And, if you don't like him, that's your right. But if you watch this sport, you must be a fan of it. And if you are a fan, you must not like this penalty. You must not respect it because your favorite team or driver benefits from it. You must not respect it because it involves Lewis Hamilton. You can hate the guy all you want, but at the end of the day, as a fan you must stand up and cheer for the sport. You must want to see it progress, see it shine, and see it be the pinnacle of motorsports. Something that has such deep historical roots it has produced countless heroes. Legends in their own right.

This penalty goes against all of that. As fans, we have to stand up and declare when things are right, and when they are wrong.

This is so much more than taking away one well deserved victory from Lewis Hamilton. It's about right and wrong, what's fair, and what's not, and what is just.

Today, I'm ashamed. And if you're not too, I think you must really have to ask yourself what you want to see more. One man lose, or a whole sport be ruined. If the answer is the latter, I think you need to find a new hobby.

Dave
Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
 
BlueElephant
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:11 am

To all F1 Fans...who understand the Truth of the Stupidity in this Decision...

I present to you...

http://www.petitiononline.com/belgp08/petition.html

The Petition.
 
waterpolodan
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:46 pm

RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:40 am



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 67):
Where will he stand in the championship now? I guess this will take some off his points off?
I bet all the Ferrari buffs are rejoicing.



Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 68):


Lets add the fact that the driver who allegedly suffered the injustice managed to hit a wall and did not score. Any Ferrari fans wish to enlighten us?



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 95):



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 103):

In fact....Kimi drove a beautiful race..and had he won...i'd have been ok with it...with everything...because I know that He'd have deserved to win this race...sorry folks (and Waterpolodan)...I don't think Massa deserved to win this race..

I'm as big a Massa and Ferrari fan as anyone out there, and I think this penalty is quite simply UTTER BS. I enjoyed every second of that race, and I think that Hamilton drove brilliantly. Even if he did anything slightly out of line in the chicane and subsequent pass, KIMI CRASHED! It had no effect on the outcome of the race, and it probably wasn't even illegal, he let him past and the telemetry shows this! I hope it is overturned. It's freaking absurd that they would take this win away. If anything, maybe fine him a few thousand euros like Massa after the pit inicdent in Valencia, don't take away one of the best wins I've seen in years. I hope felipe wins the championship this year, but if he does it by a margin that would have not existed had this penalty not occured, even I will feel that it should have an asterix next to his title because this was not his race to win. Hamilton won it by completely outdriving everyone in terrible conditions and forcing Kimi to make a mistake, and then he is sent back to 3rd for NOTHING. I'm so upset right now, I've always claimed that the FIA is not unjustly biased towards Ferrari, but when I enjoy a race like this and feel that the winner truly earned it, it pisses me off to no end to see some BS penalty take that away from him. I also start to see what everyone has been saying all long about the FIA bias... Maybe I'll start to root for Torro Rosso or something?
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:53 am



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 99):
Ferrari (and the tifosi) seem to have long held the view and indeed promoted the view that there can be no Formula 1 without Ferrari.

That's a fact. It's the only team with true fans, regardless of who is driving for the team

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 99):
They perhaps lose sight of the fact that there can be no Formula 1 with ONLY Ferrari

also true, but I don0t think Ferrari fans think that

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 100):
Who cares about Mosley? It's the people in between him who are most likely the corrupt Italians.

who exactly is corrupt?

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 101):
I am absolutely convinced...that Hamilton gave back the position to Kimi...and that after giving back that position...he got into Kimi's Tow....I think thats absolutely legitament.

I posted and asked 1 minute after the race ended if the move had been 100% legal, so something did not seem right to me from the start. Even the TV commentators in Argentina were wondering if the move would justify some sort of punshment.
IMO Hammy did take advantage of that move because despite he did let Kimi through, without him cutting the chicane would have left him far behind Kimi, yet by letting him through yet keeping right behind him is taking advantage of the situation.

Having said that, I'm not so sure this penalty was the way to go. Maybe an economic fine or something, but not a pnalty that would for sure create so much controversy.

For the first time in my life I hope it doesn't rain anymore this season ... (I miss Schumi soooo much!!!)
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
baroque
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:18 am



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 105):
I present to you...

http://www.petitiononline.com/belgp08/petition.html

The Petition.

Thanks. #5825 FYI.  bigthumbsup  to you Blue and  thumbsdown  to you know who!

From the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7603179.stm

Returning to the track in the lead, the 23-year-old knew he had to yield his position, otherwise he would have been duly penalised.

The young Briton appeared to do so, with Raikkonen crossing the start-finish line narrowly ahead, before Hamilton promptly filed in behind.

Taking up the slipstream, he then overtook reigning world champion Raikkonen on entry to the La Source hairpin.

But race stewards Nicholas Deschaux, Surinder Thatti and Yves Bacquelaine saw things differently.


What, pray did the race stewards manage to see. ?In the rules it states only that you must give back the place. Back a stage earlier, was it legitimate for Kimi to force Hamilton off the track. Looked a bit dodgy to me, later on he slammed Hamilton from behind which it appeared was how he lost his front wings which were not on the car when he creamed the wall.

Unfortunately I killed my DVD recording, but I did replay it in slow mo to understand, but then assuming that Hamilton had won I deleted it. Minutes later I found out about the 25 seconds. Were those guys less than 25 seconds behind him? I thought they were miles away.

David Croft on the recording at
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7602830.stm
appeared to see the same as I did on constant replays. Baffling is his word for it.
 
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scbriml
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:58 am



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 101):
I am absolutely convinced...that Hamilton gave back the position to Kimi...and that after giving back that position...he got into Kimi's Tow....I think thats absolutely legitament.

 checkmark  Anyone with eyes (or even a single one!) could see he did.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 101):
And I am also completely convinced that had it been Kimi trying to pass Hamilton...NOTHING would have happened.

Sadly,  checkmark 

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 101):
Ferrari doesn't even really have a case here because their driver put it into the wall...from the first place position.

In fact, Raikkonen was behind Hamilton when he had the argument with the wall. Raikkonen regained the lead when he and Hamilton narrowly avoided colliding with a recovering backmarker (can't remember who), just around the next bend Raikkonen had a small spin and ended up on the grass which allowed Hamilton to re-pass him. The lead changed hands 5 times in less than one lap before Raikkonen hit the wall.

A refresher for anyone that didn't record the race:


Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 101):
This is Absolutely ludicrous and if it ends up that Massa wins the Championship..this Race will go down in the history books as one of the most Ferrari Biased decisions/Penalties I will have ever seen.

And now If Hamilton really does win the Championship, I'm going to be Really happy to Rub it into all of my Ferrari Fan Friends' Face.

It seems the only way for Hamilton to keep a race win is for him to lead from pole to flag, avoiding being anywhere near another driver at any point during the race. Heaven forbid there should be any, er, what do they call it?, RACING involved.  banghead 

Has Raikkonen said anything about the incident. If pressed, I'd bet 1p to £1 he'd have no issue with it.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Stealthz
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:36 am

I don't get this part... Ron Dennis claims he was told by race director Charlie Whiting that he deemed Lewis's move as legal.
If that is so how does one reconcile that with this clause from the F1 Sporting regulations?

Quote:
16.2 a) It shall be at the discretion of the stewards to decide, upon a report or a request by the race director, if a driver or drivers involved in an incident shall be penalised.

For those with one red eye, I have a question, considering Hamilton and Raikkonen were so close entering the chicane, literally in contact. How far back was he expected to drop in conceding the place he "gained"?

KR passing under yellows and using the high grip run off areas to close up on Hamilton, guess that won't be noticed!
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:46 am

Thanks BlueElephant for posting the petition on line. I will pass it around.
Now I must catch up with all unread postings. What they have done to Hamilton yesterday is awful and unfair.  Angry  Angry  Angry  Angry
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
astuteman
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:04 am



Quoting Legoguy (Reply 102):
Hamilton gained the position when Raikkonen was too conservative on his brakes leading into turn one.

Perfectly summarising the difference in approach in the wet..

Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 106):
Hamilton drove brilliantly. Even if he did anything slightly out of line in the chicane and subsequent pass, KIMI CRASHED! It had no effect on the outcome of the race

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

Anyone who thinks that Hamilton staying behind Rakonnen into turn 1 would have changed anything in the race is kidding themselves.
Hamilton was absolutely brilliant on the wrong tyre, in a tight situation.
Bottom line.

A travesty

Rgds
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:15 am

Good video of the events here:

There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
baroque
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Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:18 am



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 110):
For those with one red eye, I have a question, considering Hamilton and Raikkonen were so close entering the chicane, literally in contact. How far back was he expected to drop in conceding the place he "gained"?

Close AND alongside!

However are you sure who will end up having the red eyes? Weeping does that to us blue eyed folk.  cry 
 
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scbriml
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:25 am



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 110):
I don't get this part... Ron Dennis claims he was told by race director Charlie Whiting that he deemed Lewis's move as legal.
If that is so how does one reconcile that with this clause from the F1 Sporting regulations?

To be fair, having asked race director Charlie Whiting for clarification, Ron Dennis did say that Whiting could only "express an opinion".

Even so, this is confusing:
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=43853

Quote:
"The stewards, having received a report from the race director and having met with the drivers and team managers involved, have...determine a breach of the regulations has been committed by the competitor and impose the penalty referred to," said an FIA statement.

So, after allegedly telling McLaren he thought Hamilton was OK, did Whiting ask the stewards to investigate?

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 110):
How far back was he expected to drop in conceding the place he "gained"?

That of course is the big question, since, AFAIK, the regulations don't specify anything. Would it be unreasonable to suggest they should specify that the driver who "gained an advantage" cannot overtake again until after the next corner (so at Spa, after La Source)?

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 110):
KR passing under yellows

Did this happen when they both narrowly avoided a recovering backmarker? I expect it will be deemed irrelevant, seeing as Raikkonen failed to finish.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Stealthz
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:42 am



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 115):
Ron Dennis did say that Whiting could only "express an opinion".

If it is his role to request an investigation or other action then he does not have an opinion, he should either say definitively or say nothing.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 115):
Would it be unreasonable to suggest they should specify that the driver who "gained an advantage" cannot overtake again until after the next corner

Not unreasonable at all but they don't! (actually as any student of F1 rules and regulations know, they don't specify very much at all)
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
oly720man
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:52 am

As an impartial observer who missed the race and had to watch the highlights to see what all the fuss was about I can't see that LH did anything wrong to gain any sort of advantage. Sure he did cut the corner, but he had nowhere else to go, and then he let Raikkonen back in front, to end up in pretty much the same position they'd have been in if they'd followed the track onto the start/finish straight. So no advantage gained.

Crazy decision, IMO. And all it's seemed to have done is put a lot of people's backs up about the "establishment" helping Ferrari and being against Maclaren. Not really for the greater good of the sport.

Has Ferrari moaned about this manoeuvre at all or is it all down to the stewards and the letter of the law? If things were that bad, or disadvantageous, I'd have thought that Ferrari would have raised an objection straight away, given there's no love lost between the teams. So you'd have to assume that they saw nothing to object to.
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
bill142
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:56 am



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 107):
who exactly is corrupt?

The race stewards. Do you really think Mosley makes these calls? Of course not.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 110):
I don't get this part... Ron Dennis claims he was told by race director Charlie Whiting that he deemed Lewis's move as legal.
If that is so how does one reconcile that with this clause from the F1 Sporting regulations?

It wouldn't be the first time the race stewards have changed a decision after the race.
 
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scbriml
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:18 am



Quoting Oly720man (Reply 117):
Has Ferrari moaned about this manoeuvre at all or is it all down to the stewards and the letter of the law?

Ferrari claim they did not ask the stewards to investigate this incident. Given that they, and one of their drivers, benefited from the ruling, I'd expect them to keep quiet. I'd also expect them to tell Raikkonen not to say anything about it, because, IMHO, Raikkonen wouldn't have any problem with what I believe he would simply see as "racing".
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Springbok747
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:26 am



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 107):
That's a fact. It's the only team with true fans, regardless of who is driving for the team

 checkmark 

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 107):
IMO Hammy did take advantage of that move because despite he did let Kimi through, without him cutting the chicane would have left him far behind Kimi, yet by letting him through yet keeping right behind him is taking advantage of the situation.

 checkmark 

Hamilton clearly had no intention of backing down. I still think he gained by cutting across (granted, he did not have anywhere else to go with Kimi closing the door), and that little trick of letting Kimi through, for a few seconds, only to overtake him, did not do him (Hamilton) any favours.

But even though I am a hardcore Ferrari fan, this decision by the stewards is ridiculous, because Kimi ended up in the wall and had nothing to do with the final results. So why the hell should it matter whether Hamilton took advantage or not? F1 is becoming a farce.
אני תומך בישראל
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:49 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 120):
this decision by the stewards is ridiculous

More so than ridiculous. It's totally biased and a scandal.

Looks like all of them do not like Hamilton and are bugged to see him doing so well again this year. Looks like they are all trying to do everything they can to cut off his enthusiasm and willingness to win and get him discouraged and down. Is it because he is the only driver with a dark skin while all the others are whites? I sometimes wonder... I forgot, there is also Nakajima but he is no threat as he is always racing in the back...

Any official reports of Hamilton's reaction/comments?

[Edited 2008-09-08 03:01:19]
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
Gman94
Posts: 1167
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:06 am



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 120):
Hamilton clearly had no intention of backing down. I still think he gained by cutting across (granted, he did not have anywhere else to go with Kimi closing the door), and that little trick of letting Kimi through, for a few seconds, only to overtake him, did not do him (Hamilton) any favours.

That little trick as you put meant that he had to back off and allow Kimi back through, how else would Kimi of got passed him? The reason that Hamilton overtook him on the very next corner is that Kimi can't drive in the wet and took the corner like a girl, nothing to do with Hamilton gaining an advantage.
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
sudden
Topic Author
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:32 am



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 120):
So why the hell should it matter whether Hamilton took advantage or not? F1 is becoming a farce.

To make the WDC evenmore interesting!?
As a lot of you have said already, it's biased what have happened, and I see this as a follow up on what happened last year. I think that sh*t will haunt Mclaren for a long time.

Kimi seem to not have given up the fight yet though;

Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, (18th):
"I came here to win and I came close. In the final laps the track conditions were very critical and unfortunately, I ran wide and when I tried to get back on track, I spun and ended up in the wall. It was a shame because today the car was working really well. I got a good start and managed to pass Felipe on the straight and then overtook Hamilton when he spun at the start of the second lap. On the soft tyres, I could run at a good pace, while the final set, the harder ones, was not quite there - definitely not as good in performance terms as those I'd used in the past couple of days - and the balance of the car was not as good as earlier. The arrival of the rain definitely did not help. In these conditions, if you are in front you have to be more cautious as you don't know how much grip you'll find in each braking area. That's how Hamilton managed to close on me and then happened what you all saw. It's the second race in a row that I've failed to score points. Clearly the championship situation is what it is, but I'm not the sort to give up that easily."
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/9/8331.html

Aim for the sky!
Sudden
When in doubt, flat out!
 
BlueElephant
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:52 am

I have a question here for some of you Ferrari Fans out there (Mainly those defending the Stewards decision...EZEIZA)

Had the situation been reversed...Had it been Kimi cutting a Chicane and letting Lewis Back passed only to take him in the first corner... and then having Kimi being penalized...Wouldn't you be upset too?

If you answered Yes...then you are just as cheap as the stewards, because you're defending them.

I took a few minutes to read some of the comments of those signautres on that petition....and even hardcore Ferrari Fans for the past 40 years have said that Hamilton should have won that race.

Hamilton was punished in France for passing over a chicane...I think that Penalty was justified...and I'm a McLaren Fan...

I just watch that video, that Madam Concorde posted again...for the 10th time, and am completely convinced that Hamilton gave position 1 Back to Kimi...at SPA.

[Edited 2008-09-08 05:16:45]
 
Stealthz
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:52 am



Quoting Sudden (Reply 123):
and I see this as a follow up on what happened last year. I think that sh*t will haunt Mclaren for a long time.

I trust not, If the authorities are carrying on a vendetta based on the events of 2007 they need to be fired NOW and not allowed back to any race circuit, anywhere, ever.
McLaren were punished last year, punished more than any organisation in motor sports history for reasons that to this day remain unclear. That punishment should have closed the case.
If the old women of the FIA cannot move on then it is time for them to be moved out!
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
legoguy
Posts: 2981
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:00 pm

Hungary 2006;



No penalty for Schumacher as he retired.

So why a penalty for Hamilton whose supposed advantage was whipped out when Kimi went nose first into a wall?
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:34 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 113):
Good video of the events here:


Interesting "intervention" went back again to ponder and "we are sorry, video no longer available".

Damn, why did I kill my perfectly good recording?
 
BlueElephant
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:28 pm

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70421

"Random" Engine Check for Massa.

I bet the FIA is doing these "random" checks to make everyone feel that Ferrari has to be checked too...Too bad even if there is a problem they won't find anything wrong.

I find it quite interesting however...that the "random" checks happen to find their way to the top drivers....hmm...how totally random  Yeah sure
 
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scbriml
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:38 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 127):
Interesting "intervention" went back again to ponder and "we are sorry, video no longer available".

Yes, it seems all the recent GP vids are being taken down "for copyright violations".  cry 
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
baroque
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:47 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 129):
Yes, it seems all the recent GP vids are being taken down "for copyright violations".

I can hear a band playing in the distance. Now what IS that tune? Sounds like

"Believe it if you like"  Big grin

If only I had not ditched my copy. At least I could have taken out a few frames and suitably modded them as stills to be away from copyright. But all is gone. I just thought it was all done and dusted, and then 15 minutes later it WAS, But not the way I thought.

One thing that was interesting was that my memory of the Channel 10 (Aus) transmission) and I watched it frame by frame, is that Hamilton appeared a bit further back from Raikonnen in the straight compared with the impression from MadameConcorde's video. So it must have been a camera with a different zoom. What I was looking at was KR weaving, which he did more than the one move that I thought was allowed.

Hey ho.

When does the review/appeal happen?
 
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scbriml
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:15 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 130):
I can hear a band playing in the distance. Now what IS that tune? Sounds like

"Believe it if you like"

You could try watching the "Spa Controversy" video on ITV's website:
http://www.itv-f1.com/VideoHighlights.aspx

I don't know if you can view these outside the UK though, and you will have to watch an advert.
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There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:19 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 129):
Yes, it seems all the recent GP vids are being taken down "for copyright violations".

Oh crap... they took it down.  mad  I should have downloaded it... my bad!
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:25 pm



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 118):
The race stewards. Do you really think Mosley makes these calls? Of course not.

Ok Bill, it's that you said "corrupt Italians" and that's no appreciated.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 125):
I have a question here for some of you Ferrari Fans out there (Mainly those defending the Stewards decision...EZEIZA)

If you would even care to read my post, I DID say that Hammy had some sort of advantage (and I maintain that, I think had he not cut the chicane he would have come out way back because he tried something impssible with those conditions and KR maintained his position). But I also wrote:


Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 107):
Having said that, I'm not so sure this penalty was the way to go. Maybe an economic fine or something, but not a pnalty that would for sure create so much controversy.

So instead of calling me "cheap like the stewards", next time read the entire post.




 Angry
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:39 pm

Was this posted?

From The Times
September 8, 2008
Lewis Hamilton must not let the Spa stewards get him down
Briton produced one of his most daring performances to win the Belgian Grand Prix only to have victory taken away from him

Lewis Hamilton produced one of his most daring performances to win the Belgian Grand Prix yesterday, only to have victory taken away from him by a hugely controversial retrospective punishment by the race stewards.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article4700145.ece

Is there an email address where to send moral support and appreciation to Ron Dennis and the whole team at McLaren?
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
Gman94
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:40 pm

Niki Lauda someone who knows a little bit a Formula 1 has said that the penalty against Hamilton is completely wrong. Full interview can be heard here.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/7604776.stm
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Rockson
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:57 pm



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 85):
The reason that Hamilton overtook Raikkonen at the next turn is because Raikkonen can't hold a candle to Hamilton when it comes to wet weather driving

And you can base this on seeing two drivers driving two different cars in wet conditions on dries?

And how can some people here blame Kimi? He just held the racing line! Blame the people behind the decision, not Kimi!



"And Ferrari's team principal indicated that his first impression of Hamilton's subsequent successful charge at Raikkonen at the next corner was fair."

'This is racing,' he said.

"Domenicali refused to condemn Hamilton's driving at Spa's Bus Stop chicane where he dived down the outside of Raikkonen's Ferrari, briefly got ahead on a track being made increasingly treacherous by rain, but was then forced to cut across the chicane to avoid a collision as Raikkonen held the racing line."


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/oth...miltons-Raikkonen-pass-racing.html
 
astuteman
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:26 pm



Quoting Rockson (Reply 136):
And you can base this on seeing two drivers driving two different cars in wet conditions on dries?

Silverstone would seem to support the theorem......

Rgds
 
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scbriml
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:30 pm



Quoting Rockson (Reply 136):
And how can some people here blame Kimi? He just held the racing line!

I don't recall anyone saying it's Raikkonen's fault that Hamilton was penalised! Raikkonen held a reasonable racing line in to the chicane (given that they both locked-up), giving Hamilton a stark choice - collide, or take the escape route. Only a complete pussy of a driver would have conceded the corner to the man on the outside.

Quoting Rockson (Reply 136):
"And Ferrari's team principal indicated that his first impression of Hamilton's subsequent successful charge at Raikkonen at the next corner was fair."

'This is racing,' he said.

All credit to Ferrari for saying this, especially as they were the main beneficiary in Hamilton's penalty. Also good to see confirmation that they didn't complain to the stewards. Which begs the obvious question, if Ferrari (and presumably Raikkonen) didn't feel the need to complain, why did the stewards find they needed to investigate the incident?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Rockson
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:53 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 138):
I don't recall anyone saying it's Raikkonen's fault that Hamilton was penalised

Well, not directly. But comments like the one below are just silly. I'ts goddamn racing we are talking about.

Quoting Moo (Reply 70):
Thats his own bloody fault. Remember, it was Raikkonen that suffered damage through forcing Hamilton off the track and onto the chicane escape road.


I recall some calling Hamilton hitting Raikkonen in the pit lane a 'racing incident'. THIS is a racing incident.

[Edited 2008-09-08 12:57:46]
 
Stealthz
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:58 pm

Fourth player--
The decision to penalise a driver is made by the stewards one from the host country and 2 others. There is however a fourth player, a stewards advisor who apparently has much influence over these decisions but does not put his signature on the penalty notice.
This advisor is Alan Donnelley, a close friend of .. yep you guessed it Max Mosely.
For some years Mr Donnelly was Max's personal representative at races, operates his company out of an FIA owned building. His company earned a large amount of money advising the FIA, several F1 teams and Ferrari(though apparently not the F1 team).
Does this perhaps leave the way open for some suspicion of a conflict of interest.

The appointment and qualifications of F1 stewards is a little vague, I think being a friend of Max's helps, that certainly could explain Surinder Thatti's* place though in all honesty Nicholas Deshaux is not there because of hs friendship or unqualified support of MM. I can't comment on the 3rd member.

I have no real hope that the FIA ICA will overturn this penalty as it is effectively a drive through and there is no appeal for such a penalty. The only real(slim) hope is that the World Council overturns the decision. They don't do this very often (rightly so), strangely the last time they did do it the decision went against Ferrari.

Cheers

* Thatti was the official that complained about Sebastien Loeb's appearance earlier this year

Quote:
"He was unshaven, scruffy looking and with unkempt hair!!,"

If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
sudden
Topic Author
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:38 pm



Quoting Rockson (Reply 139):
But comments like the one below are just silly. I'ts goddamn racing we are talking about.

Quoting Moo (Reply 70):
Thats his own bloody fault. Remember, it was Raikkonen that suffered damage through forcing Hamilton off the track and onto the chicane escape road.

Well, don't pay too much attention to what Moo types as he obviously don't know much about racing seeing his earlier posts in other F1 threads.

In any case,
It's over and done and we can argue until we drop, but it wont change much. It's a damn shame for sure, but in less then a weeks time we have another highspeed track at Ferrari's backyard, so it will be interesting to see what this will bring.

One thing is clear though,
Kimi is the fastest driver out there as he sets fastest lap in more or less every race. If he would be able to turn that in to wins/podiums he still have a chance for the title. It would be good for the WDC if it was between 3 instead of 2 drivers.

Aim for the sky!
Sudden
When in doubt, flat out!
 
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moo
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:47 pm



Quoting Sudden (Reply 141):
Well, don't pay too much attention to what Moo types as he obviously don't know much about racing seeing his earlier posts in other F1 threads.

Yeah, obviously I don't know anything about racing  Yeah sure

If you don't like someone elses opinion, stfu.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1472
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:20 pm



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 98):
Numerous incidents over the years that Ferrari don't get punished for but the other teams do.

Myth.

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 104):
I suppose you don't mind when they show Felipe Massa's father at almost every race as well. sarcastic Wonder why that is....

I've seen more shots of Hamilton Snr than Massa Snr, so to me it suggests there is more bias and media attention towards the Hamilton's than the Massa's

Quoting Rockson (Reply 136):
And how can some people here blame Kimi? He just held the racing line! Blame the people behind the decision, not Kimi!

Well said!

Whether Kimi had pace or not, he had every right to the racing line. And the same would apply to Lewis if it was him in Kimi's shoes. If Kimi is holding the racing line and doing nothing wrong whatsoever then how the other driver deals with it, along with the legality of how it is dealt with, shouldn't bother Kimi too much...unless it ends in disaster for both drivers like the time Lewis didn't see the red light at the end of the pit lane in Canada and didn't break in time to prevent him from crashing into the back of Kimi, taking both driver's out and consequently caused damage to Nico Rosberg's car too.
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:55 pm



Quoting Sudden (Reply 141):
Kimi is the fastest driver out there as he sets fastest lap in more or less every race. If he would be able to turn that in to wins/podiums he still have a chance for the title

He's been unlucky this season. Either the engine blew up, or rain came at the worst moment, or he gets crashed into in the pit lane ... it's just not his season. But having last year as a clear example, it aint over till its over Big grin

Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 143):
Quoting Gman94 (Reply 98):
Numerous incidents over the years that Ferrari don't get punished for but the other teams do.

I agree, Myth. Just look at recent times ... Ferrari did not spy on anyone. It's a miracle how they even let McLaren finish the season and let them compete like nothing happened with a case like this. If it would have been Ferrari doing this all you Ferrari haters (why by the way? without Ferrari there's no F1!) would have been screaming on how is it possible that Ferari is not banned bla bla bla.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
Springbok747
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:31 pm



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 122):
The reason that Hamilton overtook him on the very next corner is that Kimi can't drive in the wet and took the corner like a girl, nothing to do with Hamilton gaining an advantage.

 Yeah sure

Actually, after watching this 'incident' again, I have changed my mind. Hamilton could have slipped in behind Kimi at the chicane. Instead (probably because he didn't want to be slow out of the corner) he cut the chicane. He got momentum off cutting the corner. He had good intentions, he did back off a tiny bit to allow Kimi back through but it wasn't enough to break the momentum he (Hamilton) was carrying from cutting the corner. Thus the penalty was justified.
If that had been gravel he wouldn't have gone through it. He wasn't wildly out of control.. and he could have avoided cutting the chicane. He got a penalty for it. Thats it.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 144):
If it would have been Ferrari doing this all you Ferrari haters (why by the way? without Ferrari there's no F1!) would have been screaming on how is it possible that Ferari is not banned bla bla bla.

Oh but don't you know McLaren, Lewis and Ron Dennis are total saints, they would never spy on another team. That whole spying case was a conspiracy created by Ferrari to frame McLaren  Yeah sure
אני תומך בישראל
 
BlueElephant
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:46 pm



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 145):
If that had been gravel he wouldn't have gone through it. He wasn't wildly out of control.. and he could have avoided cutting the chicane. He got a penalty for it. Thats it.

If that had been Gravel he'd have gotten stuck Because ...Kimi and Hamilton actually touched wheels in that corner, thats part of the reason why he went in the grass in the first place.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 133):
So instead of calling me "cheap like the stewards", next time read the entire post.

I read your entire post mate....and the sheer fact that you even think he should be fine shows you think the penalty was justified...and it's not.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 145):
He had good intentions, he did back off a tiny bit to allow Kimi back through but it wasn't enough to break the momentum he (Hamilton) was carrying from cutting the corner. Thus the penalty was justified.

If someone is going slower then you and isn't accelerating when you pass them...isn't that considered letting them pass?...I agree it was close...but Hamilton did let Kimi by and then get back in his slipstream...thats fair..and legal.

Both of you....Springbo747 and EZEIZA...

I want you to explain something to all of us.



Do you think Schumi should have been Penalized for this?
 
Gman94
Posts: 1167
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 2:56 am

RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:56 pm



Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 143):
Quoting Gman94 (Reply 98):
Numerous incidents over the years that Ferrari don't get punished for but the other teams do.

Myth.

Er no, Massa nearly takes out Sutil in the pits at Valencia and gets a fine for something that is downright dangerous, Kimi injures one of his pit crew mainly due to Ferrari not having a board man giving instructions to the driver like the other teams which is also downright dangerous and gets no punishment, Hamilton gets a 25 second penalty for following the rules and the incident didn't even affect the result of the race. You just need to go back and look at the numerous decisions made over the years to realise this, cars with illegal devices, driver not getting punished for their misdemeanours like the rest of the teams.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 144):
(why by the way? without Ferrari there's no F1!)

Absolute crap! And even if that was true that doesn't mean that they should benefit from the governing body like they do.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 145):
he did back off a tiny bit to allow Kimi back through

Tiny bit is irrelevant, he backed off and let Kimi regain his place as per the rules. Kimi can't drive in the wet so got overtaken at the next corner not Hamilton's problem. Kimi should take some wet racing lessons from Schumacher.

I think Niki Lauda know a bit more about racing then you Ferrari fan boys.
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legoguy
Posts: 2981
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:59 pm

RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:59 pm



Quoting Sudden (Reply 141):
Well, don't pay too much attention to what Moo types as he obviously don't know much about racing seeing his earlier posts in other F1 threads.

 whistleblower  You're judging Moo by one incorrect post. With all due respect, everybody is entitled to their own opinions. If you don't like their opinions, don't try painting them as an idiot. Moo has posted many decent and fair comments in the past.

Quoting Sudden (Reply 141):
In any case,
It's over and done and we can argue until we drop, but it wont change much. It's a damn shame for sure, but in less then a weeks time we have another highspeed track at Ferrari's backyard, so it will be interesting to see what this will bring.

Unfortunately, it's not over until the McLaren appeal is quashed and the results are clarified.

Quoting Sudden (Reply 141):
Kimi is the fastest driver out there as he sets fastest lap in more or less every race. If he would be able to turn that in to wins/podiums he still have a chance for the title. It would be good for the WDC if it was between 3 instead of 2 drivers.

Kimi is slightly odd when it comes to fastest laps. He's fast, but extremely inconsistant with lapping and often waits until the last lap of the race to blast in the fastest lap even when he's half way down the field.

Judging from this weekend, I think McLaren has a slight performance edge when it's drizzling, perhaps due to the much talked about 'illegal' extra paddles located on the backs of the McLaren Steering wheels.
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:12 pm



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 146):
I read your entire post mate....and the sheer fact that you even think he should be fine shows you think the penalty was justified...and it's not.

Ok, seriously, what part don't you get?? I said he got an advantage but that the penalty is harsh. Did I write in Spanish or you0re just not getting it because you don't want to?

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 147):
Absolute crap! And even if that was true that doesn't mean that they should benefit from the governing body like they do.

No sir, without Ferrari you can call it whatever you wan't but it won't be F1. As I mentioned earlier, it is the only team with true fans throughout the world. Now having said that I NEVER mentioned any team should be trated differently.
But I'll go back to the biggest scandal in F1 history. Only last season, and who was at fault there? Yes, an economic fine (to the second richest team in F1) but they could still win the driver title??? Who did the governing body help in that case??

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 147):
You just need to go back and look at the numerous decisions made over the years to realise this, cars with illegal devices

read above. The BIGGEST scandal in F1 history.

myth

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 147):
Massa nearly takes out Sutil in the pits at Valencia and gets a fine for something that is downright dangerous

Massa did absolutly nothing wrong, and if you recall he almost ended up against the pit wall.
And no, I'm still not agreeing with this penalty, as neither Massa deserved one.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 146):
but Hamilton did let Kimi by and then get back in his slipstream...thats fair..and legal.

And I agreed the first time. Especially since there is no certain rule on this. I still think that Hamilton was the one that came out in best shape after the incident, but the points should not have been taken away. I said that in the first post since I found out f this decision.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...

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