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Springbok747
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:59 pm



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 146):
Do you think Schumi should have been Penalized for this?

Yes.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 146):
but Hamilton did let Kimi by and then get back in his slipstream

Yeah, for a nanosecond. The very fact that he got back on Kimi's slipstream so quickly was because he was carrying momentum gained from that little excursion Granted, he would have passed Kimi at some stage in that lap, but the way he passed Kimi immediately was because of the extra momentum he was carrying, and that gave him an advantage.
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legoguy
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:20 am



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 150):
Yeah, for a nanosecond. The very fact that he got back on Kimi's slipstream so quickly was because he was carrying momentum gained from that little excursion Granted, he would have passed Kimi at some stage in that lap, but the way he passed Kimi immediately was because of the extra momentum he was carrying, and that gave him an advantage.

Sorry I don't quite understand. Hamilton lifted his foot off the accelerator after the corner thus loosing any momentum gained by cutting the corner. Kimi was faster exiting the corner and thus 6kpm faster than Hamilton at the cross finish line.

Also Hamilton was only directly behind Kimi's car for about a nanosecond after the start finish line so Hamilton effectively got no slipstream from kimi down the start/finish straight.

Here's the incident and the dramatics that followed during the lap afterwards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDjAnXEadGc
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BlueElephant
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:27 am



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 150):
Yes.

Hmm...really?...just a one word response?...I'm glad you said yes...but seeing as you did....Schumi outright cheated and he wasn't penalized...and when Hamilton outright gives up his position....even by juuuust a (very visable) little bit..He should definately be penalized then...absolutely (  Yeah sure )..

Come EZEIZA...don't you want to comment on that Schumi Video?...Senor Ferrari Fan?...

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 149):
Ok, seriously, what part don't you get?? I said he got an advantage but that the penalty is harsh. Did I write in Spanish or you0re just not getting it because you don't want to?

Hmm...can you explain then A. Why The Red Driver there in the Video above...from 2006 didn't get penalized?....hmmm? Or even better... B.) when Kimi passed Rosberg and put Hamilton in the Grass...under a Yellow Caution flag...why didn't he get Punished for that?

I know your answer....because it's a myth.  Yeah sure

Maybe you should speak in Spanish...it might help your case  Yeah sure


Here's another Video...


www.FormulaMag.com - Hamilton-Kimi
Uploaded by Budhardt

You can pretty clearly see Kimi ahead of Lewis on the straight (really awesome video by the way...regardless)...and you can also see Kimi...Take Lewis off the track in a yellow Flag...and passed Rosberg too..

I will give you guys this..it doesn't *sound* like he lifted off that pedal for too long...although he did...and you can see Kimi clearly ahead.
 
Stealthz
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:55 am



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 149):
But I'll go back to the biggest scandal in F1 history. Only last season, and who was at fault there? Yes, an economic fine (to the second richest team in F1) but they could still win the driver title??? Who did the governing body help in that case??

You might want to start a new thread if you want to start discussing the injustices and shear travesty of that situation.
An employee of Ferrari steals information shares it with a somewhat disgruntled McLaren employee to boost their negotiating power with a third team.
A similar case with different teams is considered proven and NO action is taken... don't start saying FI is fair!!
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BlueElephant
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:22 am



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 153):

A similar case with different teams is considered proven and NO action is taken... don't start saying FI is fair!!

Here's a nice Metaphorical Story to explain all of what happened last year.

There' a Professor, a TA and a Student... the TA goes to the Student and tells him that he has all the answers to the test, and he shares those answers with the Student. And then after the Student scores well...The TA goes to the Professor and says....I gave the Student the Answers...and he Cheated...you should Punish the Student...And the Professor Punishes the Student with a 100 Million pound fine...and kicks him out of the class..but the TA continues to be the Professor's best friend...the end.  Smile
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:24 am



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 152):
Come EZEIZA...don't you want to comment on that Schumi Video?...Senor Ferrari Fan?...

I will. Yes, he should have. But is that the only time F1 officials have screwed up? You can post all the videos you want, but officials have made bad calls many times, and in favour and against of all teams, at least top teams. Dou you remember when Coulthard practically hit the breaks when Schumi was passing him under the rain? Can´t remember the year that happened but no sanction was given there.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 152):
Maybe you should speak in Spanish...it might help your case

Maybe in Spanish you'll get it in your head that I'm saying that Hammilton's penalty is not right.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
BlueElephant
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:28 am



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 155):
Maybe in Spanish you'll get it in your head that I'm saying that Hammilton's penalty is not right.

No boss...I got that mate...I knew that the first time...but then you said he should have been Fined...because he did something wrong...Thats what i'm getting at...he didn't do anything wrong...
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:43 am



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 156):
No boss...I got that mate...I knew that the first time...but then you said he should have been Fined...because he did something wrong...Thats what i'm getting at...he didn't do anything wrong...

There's where I'm not 100% sure it was 100% right. I don't know exactly how to explain, but it didn't look right the first time. I STILL think that taking 25 seconds off is not right. I said he should be fined in case there was some minour fault, just like Massa in Valencia. If any sanciton is to be given, it should be minor and that it really does not affect the race result.
But honestly what they should do is put on paper a proper regulation on how to handle these situations.
Now, If I'm not mistaken, wasn´t Alosno sanctioned for a very similar situation in 2005? I think it was in japan but I'm not sure. So there is a precedent.


Maybe they'll get the appeal and if they don't, Hammilton is still first. And it's not like he was gettin 20 points away from Massa, it's only 6 point difference, and if he doesn't start screwing up like last season he will win this year.
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LTU932
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:59 am



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 152):
You can pretty clearly see Kimi ahead of Lewis on the straight (really awesome video by the way...regardless)...and you can also see Kimi...Take Lewis off the track in a yellow Flag...and passed Rosberg too..

I will give you guys this..it doesn't *sound* like he lifted off that pedal for too long...although he did...and you can see Kimi clearly ahead.

From what I've seen in the video: The gain Hamilton had from having involuntarily cut through the chicane was minimal at best. He gave that mininal advantage back to Räikönnen, as he was supposed to, and took the opportunity to get back into the slipstream to overtake him later on. It happened very quick (which in the eyes of the Ferrari fanbois may be something suspicious), but any driver would have done this. Hamilton probably did make a small mistake, as he misjudged a bit his speed and where he was on the track, something that may have caused him to cut through the chicane in the first place, but as I said, it was involuntary, and after having cut through the chicane, he let Kimi overtake him (as per the rules), and he would then have to try again, which he successfully did.

Personally, I am starting to see a certain degree of bias towards Ferrari within FIA. The Spygate thing from last year was already ridiculous enough, because Ferrari was never punished, only McLaren. I mean, Ferrari is just as much to blame for this as McLaren, because they could have kept that information under more stricter security which they didn't. But as we know, only McLaren was punished, and the constructor's championship was basically decided through this arbitration. Granted, in this incident from Spa, Stefano Domenicali may not be very happy that they got the win through arbitration, but Domenicali has no real say at all at Ferrari. He only leads the F1 team Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro, that's it. The really powerful guy at Ferrari, and someone who has historically had a major influence on Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro, and still has lots of influence with them, is the boss of Ferrari's parent, Luca di Montezemolo, CEO of Fiat S.p.A.
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BlueElephant
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:04 am



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 157):

Maybe they'll get the appeal and if they don't, Hammilton is still first. And it's not like he was gettin 20 points away from Massa, it's only 6 point difference, and if he doesn't start screwing up like last season he will win this year.

Hamilton would have been up by 8 points on Massa and...23 pts ahead of Kimi...instead he is only 2 points ahead on Massa....6 points is HUGE when every one point counts...Kimi is effectively out...and honestly...i feel bad for him...because he drove beautifully.

Even if he's still first...he's not being treated as he was.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 157):
I said he should be fined in case there was some minour fault, just like Massa in Valencia. If any sanciton is to be given, it should be minor and that it really does not affect the race result.

Thats where you're going to get youself in trouble by saying that....you see...Massa SHOULD have been given a Drive through Penalty...THATS the difference..THATS why everyone is so angry....becasue the Stewarts...give Massa a Minor fine..when he should have been given a MAJOR Drive through....and they give HAMILTON a MAJOR drive Through....when they should have not been giving him Anything.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 157):
But honestly what they should do is put on paper a proper regulation on how to handle these situations.

I agree mate...Thats what the deal is...It says he has to let the driver past....and he did...he should not get penalized for it.
 
BlueElephant
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:08 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 158):
and someone who has historically had a major influence on Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro, and still has lots of influence with them, is the boss of Ferrari's parent, Luca di Montezemolo, CEO of Fiat S.p.A.

He's good friends with Max Mosely...who's been quoted as saying that he'll make decision "in the best interest" of Ferrari.

Its quoted in an article I posted Above.
 
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LTU932
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:24 am



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 160):
He's good friends with Max Mosely...who's been quoted as saying that he'll make decision "in the best interest" of Ferrari.

True. Maybe that's also how Max stayed in power after the Nazi-Scandal, because he never lost the backing of Luca di Montezemolo, and he maybe helped campaign for Max Mosley behind the scenes. I thought that was mostly something behind the scenes (or maybe I simply overlooked certain stuff in the past), but with recent incidents, I think the bias towards Ferrari is becoming more and more evident. And also, I believe that even if Max Mosley and Bernie Ecclestone are out, the bias will survive, and Montezemolo will still get what he wants.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
Stealthz
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:30 am



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 159):
It says he has to let the driver past

What is funny is that despite this being the accepted practise, I can't find where it actually says that.
From the FIA F1 Sporting code 2008-

Quote:
30.3 a) During practice and the race, drivers may use only the track and must at all times observe the provisions of the Code relating to driving behaviour on circuits.

I would be pleased if someone could point out where those provisions are documented

Cheers
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baroque
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:51 am



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 162):
Quote:
30.3 a) During practice and the race, drivers may use only the track and must at all times observe the provisions of the Code relating to driving behaviour on circuits.

I would be pleased if someone could point out where those provisions are documented

That is hilarious. "Only the track" that presumably could mean just about all the finishers could be disqualified, although of course we don't actually have a definition of the track there. Did anyone stay on the bitumen? What about the white lines at the edge, are they part of the track, obviously damned slippery towards the end.

Oh me oh my. What a shambles.

PS. You did not by any chance play Jack Thompson in Breaker Morant did you StealthZ?  Wink
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:10 am



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 159):
Massa SHOULD have been given a Drive through Penalty...THATS the difference.

Why? It's a somewhat similar case ... Hammilton let Kimi pass in front again and Massa did the same.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 159):
I agree mate...Thats what the deal is...It says he has to let the driver past....and he did...he should not get penalized for it.

Yeah, but like someone posted earlier, maybe a better and more clear idea of what is considered letting one through. Meaning, making it more specific, like until the nex turn, or stepping down until the car in front has x amount of distance, or anything more specific to avoid the controversy (although I have a feeling the controversy is precisely what some want over at FIA ... $$$ )
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Rockson
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:47 am



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 147):
Kimi can't drive in the wet so got overtaken at the next corner not Hamilton's problem. Kimi should take some wet racing lessons from Schumacher.

Wouldn't it be better if he took som lessons from Hamilton instead? I mean, Hamilton recently said "- I'm no No 2, whoever you put me next to - even Michael Schumacher."
 
sudden
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:51 am



Quoting Legoguy (Reply 148):
You're judging Moo by one incorrect post. With all due respect, everybody is entitled to their own opinions. If you don't like their opinions, don't try painting them as an idiot. Moo has posted many decent and fair comments in the past.

Everybody is indeed entitled to their opinion, me included, and I didn't base my comment upon that specific post only. I'm not going to take up webspace discussing Moo, as i think Moo, you and myself have better things to write about.

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 148):
Unfortunately, it's not over until the McLaren appeal is quashed and the results are clarified

Well, looking at the past I would not have too much hopes. Also seeing that this penalty is the same as a drive through (25 seconds), Hamilton would have needed to carry it out on the track if there was more laps to go.

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 148):
Judging from this weekend, I think McLaren has a slight performance edge when it's drizzling, perhaps due to the much talked about 'illegal' extra paddles located on the backs of the McLaren Steering wheels.

The silver arrows also have an advantage when it gets cooler as they are then able to keep the heat in the tires. But the warmer it gets, the more Mclaren struggles as the tires overheat instead.
But your right about Kimi though, he manage to set fastest lap during last part of the race when it might already be too late. At Spa though I think we saw a bit of the old Kimi.

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scbriml
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:53 am



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 157):
Maybe they'll get the appeal and if they don't, Hammilton is still first. And it's not like he was gettin 20 points away from Massa, it's only 6 point difference, and if he doesn't start screwing up like last season he will win this year.

There's a huge difference between a 2-point lead and an 8-point lead with just 5 races to go!  yes 

If left as-is, the result also represents a 2-win swing in Massa's favour, which could be vital if he and Hamilton happen to end the season tied on points (at this stage, a distinct possibility).
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BlueElephant
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:53 am



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 164):
Why? It's a somewhat similar case ... Hammilton let Kimi pass in front again and Massa did the same.

Massa was released by his team very dangerously....Massa's Team should have WAITED to release Him until after Sutil passed....This is why everyone else still uses a Guy to Release cars...and not some light system.

Ferrari....Should have gotten much more heavily punished for that. Remember last year when McLaren had their thing between Alonso and Hamilton in the pits?...where Alonso stayed in the Pit too long?...what happened...It was not at all Unsafe....it was dumb...but not unsafe....and they got all their Constructor Points taken from them...just for that. But if the Red car...gets released unsafely..and almost causes an accident...all they get is a minor fine...You tell me...How's that Fair....I showed you the video of Schumacher....completely outrightly cheating...VERY VERY obvious...why wasn't he Penalized for it
 
Rockson
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:33 pm



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 168):
what happened...It was not at all Unsafe....it was dumb...but not unsafe....and they got all their Constructor Points taken from them...just for that.

Really? I thought it was because they spyed on Ferrari...
 
BlueElephant
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:45 pm



Quoting Rockson (Reply 169):
Really? I thought it was because they spyed on Ferrari...

For that Particular Race...they got all their Constructor Points taken away.

In other News...all three Stewarts for this race are going to be Italians. (thats not helping FIA!)

A nice Quote from this article...
http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3213_4120462,00.html

Quote:
Having applied a penalty against Hamilton under the terms of Appendix L chapter 4 Article 2 (g) of the International Sporting Code which simply states that 'The racetrack alone shall be used by drivers during the race' it is inevitable that questions are being raised over why they failed to penalise any of the many other drivers who left the circuit during the race.

Having stated in their press release that Hamilton 'cut a chicane and gained an advantage', The Independent isn't alone in observing 'But Raikkonen not only gained an advantage by running on to the high-friction run-off area on the exit to La Source on the opening lap, but did likewise at Pouhon on the 43rd, before he spun. At no stage did the stewards propose a penalty for those actions.'

 
Gman94
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:13 pm

Massa also used the run off at La Source on the opening lap but no penalty for him either.
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Stealthz
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:22 pm



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 170):
In other News...all three Stewarts for this race are going to be Italians. (thats not helping FIA!)

Certainly one of them will be, possibly two.
I doubt that the FIA is stupid enough* to allow all three to be Italian.

One Steward represents the local ASN so that almost certainly means one Italian steward at least.

Cheers


* sure they are!!
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baroque
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:26 pm



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 170):
A nice Quote from this article...

Keep up the information flow BlueE, but one bit I would like is when is the appeal to be heard?

I would love to see a count back for five years eliminating drivers who did not stay on the track ONE HUNDRED % of the time. On a count back for the past two years, I rather get the impression that maybe apart from a few back markers, Hamilton spends more time on the track than most???? Anyone with a better analytical memory of what should perhaps now be termed TRACK POSITION? But with a new meaning, are you on it, or off it!
 
flyboysp
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:53 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 173):
Keep up the information flow BlueE, but one bit I would like is when is the appeal to be heard?

It's appearing to be doubtful that McLaren will appeal at all..

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080909103423.shtml

It looks like they chose a penalty where it may not be allowable to appeal.
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scbriml
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:05 pm



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 170):
In other News...all three Stewarts for this race are going to be Italians. (thats not helping FIA!)

Why would they do that?  Wow!

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 172):
I doubt that the FIA is stupid enough* to allow all three to be Italian.

 footinmouth  That's the FIA, not you!
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scbriml
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:18 pm

McLaren may not be able to appeal.  banghead 
http://www.setantasports.com/en/Spor...in-locale/sport-space/motorsports/

Massa thinks Hamilton's penalty was justified. Yes, I'm surprised as well!  sarcastic 
http://www.setantasports.com/en/Spor.../great-britain-locale/motorsports/


Maybe, just maybe, there is a God after all?
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:32 pm



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 168):
Massa was released by his team very dangerously....Massa's Team should have WAITED to release Him until after Sutil passed....This is why everyone else still uses a Guy to Release cars...and not some light system

But there lies the biggest difference with this incident. Let's assume Hammilton did make an illegal move (not saying he did!), it's 100% driver fault, in Massa' incident (where I don't think anything illegal was done either) it was if anything the team at fault. So it's correct for one oncident to have the team pay and in the other the driver pay. Again, they shouldn't in neither of the cases IMO, but they way you put it that's the conclusion I would get.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 168):
....I showed you the video of Schumacher....completely outrightly cheating...VERY VERY obvious...why wasn't he Penalized for it

Yes, he for sure should have been penalized. But Schumi is the only driver to have alll his points docked (rightfully so) after he bumped on Villeneuve. So it's not like he was untouchable.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 170):
In other News...all three Stewarts for this race are going to be Italians. (thats not helping FIA!)

Considering in this race none were and Hammilton got this penalty, what is there to worry?

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 176):
Maybe, just maybe, there is a God after all?

I love races under tha rain, always been my favourite, but for Ferrari's sake this season, NO MORE RAIN pleaseeee  Wink

btw, besided all this scandals, it's a almost a miracle that Massa actually finished the race. When it started raining I actually thought Kimi would be the one to finish. I was just waiting the TV cameras to show Massa spinning all over ...
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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scbriml
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:57 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 177):
But Schumi is the only driver to have alll his points docked (rightfully so) after he bumped on Villeneuve. So it's not like he was untouchable.

Yes, but it's not as though that punishment meant anything - it was the last race of the season and he'd already lost the championship. We'll never know of course, but I wonder what the punishment would have been if there had still been races left?  scratchchin 
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baroque
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:01 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 176):
Massa thinks Hamilton's penalty was justified. Yes, I'm surprised as well! sarcastic
http://www.setantasports.com/en/Spor...orts/

So what part of going behind KR from the RHS to the LHS and then passing him was not giving up the place?

How far back from the rear wing of the (average) Ferrari is in the complete ownership of the Ferrari team - 5 metres, 10 metres, or should we make it 100 metres? And for how long and how many corners, what about until the end of the race?

Yes all other cars must stay behind any Ferrari by at least 100 m until the end of the "race".
 
BlueElephant
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:12 pm

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70442

McLaren to Appeal

Good Luck!

And I think with that shall we move on to a new thread for Monza?
 
BlueElephant
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:34 pm

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70443

How about some more interesting News...THE FIA TOLD McLAREN...that the Move was ok...DURING THE RACE.
 
legoguy
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:56 pm



Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 181):
THE FIA TOLD McLAREN...that the Move was ok...DURING THE RACE

Not only once, but twice. Contradiction between FIA members at it's best.
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scbriml
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:39 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 177):
Yes, he for sure should have been penalized. But Schumi is the only driver to have alll his points docked (rightfully so) after he bumped on Villeneuve. So it's not like he was untouchable.

In fact, it's all coming back now, the punishment was even less meaningful than I earlier indicated. Although he was disqualified from the completed championship (big deal), he kept all the results and points towards his career record. That's about as hollow a "punishment" as you could dream up.
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Rockson
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:05 pm

Sorry if posted before, but here's the situation from Hamilton's car:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6o...wwformulamagcom-hamiltonkimi_sport
 
astuteman
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:26 pm



Quoting Rockson (Reply 184):
Sorry if posted before, but here's the situation from Hamilton's car:



Quote:
"If Race Control had instead expressed any concern regarding Lewis's actions at that time, we would have instructed Lewis to allow Kimi to repass for a second time."

Says it all, really.............
 
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moo
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:41 pm



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 185):

Says it all, really.............

Wow, how long was Raikkonen on that high grip escape area for? From 2.15 to 2.23, ample opportunity to come back to the racing surface well before and he doesnt, he waits until he runs out of escape road....
 
BlueElephant
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:49 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 186):
Wow, how long was Raikkonen on that high grip escape area for? From 2.15 to 2.23, ample opportunity to come back to the racing surface well before and he doesnt, he waits until he runs out of escape road....

Yeah and in the rain...its a lot easier to pickup speed on a unused part of a track...Which has a bigger radius...

And take a look how much distance he makes up with Hamilton...
and then watch him pass two cars (Hamilton and Rosberg) under a Yellow Caution.

And then Watch Hamilton...pull away...only to have the race taken from him...Oh Please.
 
Boeing74741R
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:18 pm



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 147):

Er no, Massa nearly takes out Sutil in the pits at Valencia and gets a fine for something that is downright dangerous, Kimi injures one of his pit crew mainly due to Ferrari not having a board man giving instructions to the driver like the other teams which is also downright dangerous and gets no punishment, Hamilton gets a 25 second penalty for following the rules and the incident didn't even affect the result of the race. You just need to go back and look at the numerous decisions made over the years to realise this, cars with illegal devices, driver not getting punished for their misdemeanours like the rest of the teams.

I thought I'd explained it more clearly in my first post, let me explain it again...

MYTH!
 
Stealthz
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:28 pm



Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 188):
I thought I'd explained it more clearly in my first post, let me explain it again...

No you hadn't, you had only espoused your one sided and somewhat blinkered view of the world.

Check the history, hell even only 10-12 years or so, even you will find examples of Ferrari's gold pass!

Myth, you may think but most myths have some basis in fact.
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
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Ncfc99
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:40 pm



Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 143):
he had every right to the racing line

I have seen this said a few times in this thread. KR had no right to the racing line, no driver has a right to the racing line. LH went around the outside of KR in the first part of the bus stop, so on the second part he would be on the inside, this is a simple racing tactic. KR squeezed LH up which I thought was hard but fair racing. If LH had not taken avoiding action by cutting the corner, the contact would have been alot harder and one or both drivers could have been out of the race. Then LH would have been chrarged with causing an avoidable accident. He avoided an avoidable accident, followed the rules, then still gets charged with a load of b*******. What on gods green earth is F1 coming to.
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:42 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 178):
Yes, but it's not as though that punishment meant anything - it was the last race of the season and he'd already lost the championship. We'll never know of course, but I wonder what the punishment would have been if there had still been races left?

Agreed, and that question is valid. However, for what its worth, it created a precedent. Correct me if I'm wrong (honestly don't know), but afaik Senna nor Prost had this penalty for more or less doing the same thing?

btw, even the Italian press thought this was not a right call ...

I hope the appeal goes through and then on sunday hammilton has his engina blown up or something. And if the appeal doesn't go through, I hope Massa wins the wdc with 12 points advantage so this penalty will not have been the reason for Hammilton losing  Wink
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
BlueElephant
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:02 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 191):

I hope the appeal goes through and then on sunday hammilton has his engina blown up or something. And if the appeal doesn't go through, I hope Massa wins the wdc with 12 points advantage so this penalty will not have been the reason for Hammilton losing

At this point...its going to VERY VERY hard for Massa to win by a 12 point Advantage....Thats asking Hamilton to score at least 2 or 3 places below Massa from here on out...Don't hold your breathe.
 
Stealthz
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:03 pm

Here is an idea, a hindsight one at that!!
Maybe the stewards should have decided on a drive through for Lewis before the end of the race and he could have taken it on the last lap... that would work!!

Cheers
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davestanKSAN
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:35 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 191):
I hope the appeal goes through and then on sunday hammilton has his engina blown up or something.

I think this says it all about your posts to be honest....

Dave
Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:20 am



Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 194):
I think this says it all about your posts to be honest....

Why? At this point in the season I think the only way LH won't take the championship is if the team starts screwing up. As a driver I see him much stronger than last season. You can see the experience kicking in and I doubt he'll make too many mistakes.
And I do want a Ferrari to win, so as long as there's no foul play (ehemmm, unlike someone else last season) what's wrong with wishing the rival team to not do well?? In order for one to win there has to be another one that needs to lose.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 193):
At this point...its going to VERY VERY hard for Massa to win by a 12 point Advantage....Thats asking Hamilton to score at least 2 or 3 places below Massa from here on out...Don't hold your breathe.

I'm very aware of that ... it was more of a wish than anything. In fact about the same time last season I had lost all my hopes and I posted something about ti here, yet someone said it wasn't over yet and boy was he right! I's very hard, but not impossible. What I think will happen at some point is that LH will not finish one of the races left ... hope the luck starts turning around in Monza
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
Gman94
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:24 am



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 191):
I hope the appeal goes through and then on sunday hammilton has his engina blown up or something.

Appeal or no appeal I hope on Sunday that Hamilton destroys Ferrari at the their hometrack and has the Ferrari fans crying, note I said Ferrari fans because it's obvious that a considerable number of Ferrari fans are not Formula 1 fans like the rest of us.
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EZEIZA
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:45 am



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 196):
note I said Ferrari fans because it's obvious that a considerable number of Ferrari fans are not Formula 1 fans like the rest of us.

based on ... ?
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
BlueElephant
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:51 am



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 195):
And I do want a Ferrari to win, so as long as there's no foul play (ehemmm, unlike someone else last season) what's wrong with wishing the rival team to not do well?? In order for one to win there has to be another one that needs to lose.

You know what...It's people like you that have Tarnished the reputation of Ferrari...

You do realize that you're wishing ill of another driver just so your team can win. That would be funny...because then Massa's possible victory in WDC would have absolutely no merit...because he didn't deserve to win it. All people will say is...Massa didn't deserve to win the WDC, because Hamilton was stripped of a victory over a Ferrari Biased call...and because Massa was given a fine instead of a Drive through Penalty because of another Ferrari Biased call...

you just don't get it do you...You are not a fan of Formula 1...you are not a fan of racing...you are a fan of Ferrari...and that's really just about it....You just want to see that Red Car cross the line first...you're not a fan of the sport. Sorry mate...you've proven that you don't care if Ferrari Cheats or not...as long as they win...You really did prove yourself to be just like the stewarts...congrats.  Yeah sure
 
BlueElephant
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RE: F1 2008, Spa-Francorchamps!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:00 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 192):
Here is an idea, a hindsight one at that!!
Maybe the stewards should have decided on a drive through for Lewis before the end of the race and he could have taken it on the last lap... that would work!!

You know a friend of mine and I had a conversation about that today.

It was quite interesting...seeing as IF Ferrari really had a problem with Hamilton's move...then they would have ran to the stewarts during the race...and then that box from Race Control would pop up at the bottom of the Screen.... Car 22 to be investigated (before or after the race)

But it never happened....Pretty much proof that something goofy went on... Why did it take them an hour after the race...to just say..."hey you know what...we Told McLaren the move looked okay...twice....and Hamilton Won the race...and Kimi actually cut 2 corners and passed under a caution...and crashed out...but let take Hamilton's victory away from him anyway."

I rewatched a couple segments of the race...First thing is Kimi just before crashing out...Passed 2 cars under a clearly visible yellow flag. And how about the fact that he used about 500 m of paved run off area..

If Hamilton "gained an advantage" by cutting a small chicane...Kimi should easily be put to the back of the grid. He was clearly about 100 or 200 meters behind Hamilton...took the escape route....ALL THE WAY around....and ended up just a couple meters behind Hamilton....if thats not "gaining an advantage" I don't know what is.

[Edited 2008-09-09 19:02:35]

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