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Ken777
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RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:54 am



Quoting A346Dude (Reply 2):
The only light he knows is the one in the Oval Office, and he will do or say anything to see it.

Are we talking Obama, McCain, or both?

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 22):
How do you explain the rebuilding of Germany and Japan after WWII?

The basic explanation is the 90% top income tax bracket that we had during those years. That 90% lasted through the Republican years of Ike and was cut to 70% by JFK. In those days Americans paid high taxes to rebuild Germany and Japan because it was important to do so.

Today Republican's are for cutting taxes and letting our kids and grandkids pay the cost because of personal greed.

As for the importance of the troop surge, there is an interesting article in the Washing Post on Bob Woodward's new book:

"The book also says that the U.S. troop "surge" of 2007, in which President Bush sent nearly 30,000 additional U.S. combat forces and support troops to Iraq, was not the primary factor behind the steep drop in violence there during the past 16 months.

Rather, Woodward reports, "groundbreaking" new covert techniques enabled U.S. military and intelligence officials to locate, target and kill insurgent leaders and key individuals in extremist groups such as al-Qaeda in Iraq."

and:

"Overall, Woodward writes, four factors combined to reduce the violence: the covert operations; the influx of troops; the decision by militant cleric Moqtada al-Sadr to rein in his powerful Mahdi Army; and the so-called Anbar Awakening, in which tens of thousands of Sunnis turned against al-Qaeda in Iraq and allied with U.S. forces."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn.../AR2008090403160.html?hpid=topnews

Now, do McCain and Obama understand this? Both probably do, but it is too complex an issue to present to the average voter - best to follow the KISS principle and only talk about the "surge". For McCain the 4 factors are not vote getters.
 
baroque
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RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:38 am



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 16):
Ok, let us know when you encounter failure, I'm sure that'll be a sight to see. sarcastic

Unbelievable.

 checkmark 

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 19):

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 18):
Now we begin leave a country that has had not one but two free and fair elections

If we let them vote on whether or not they could rewind time and have us NOT invade, how do you think they'd vote?

 checkmark 
Odd how the view from dystopia is these days. It seems that not only do dystopians like (as Wiki says):
a state in which the conditions of life are extremely bad, characterized by human misery, poverty, oppression, violence, disease, and/or pollution.
to quote Wiki on the subject, they now think they have a right to say Iraqis should be grateful for a situation in which:
the conditions of life are extremely bad, characterized by human misery, poverty, oppression, violence, disease, and/or pollution.

The OP is highly selective - as usual. He might have gone on to quote some other parts of the article that suggest there has not exactly been a great victory.

However, he added, the country has not had enough "political reconciliation" and Iraqis still have not taken responsibility for their country.

"We have gone through five years of mismanagement of this war that I thought was disastrous, and the president wanted to double down and continue an open-ended policy (that did not put pressure on the Iraqi government)," he said.


"He" being Obama. Now was that not worthy of being added? Nah, not along the Obama is always wrong line. He might not always be right, but by god he is a lot closer to being true than the Bush/ McCain/ Rj line.

As

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 51):
Ken777

points out, the improvements in the rates of major attacks is likely not that closely related to the surge, but to other measures that reduced the level of mismanagement.

As others have said, saying Hussein would have killed more is worse than a specious argument. And what Hussein certainly never managed was to have 2 million flee the country. Have they been returning. A very few, and as far as the reports go, most of those have left again.

Iraq might not have been a great country and had a lousy government, but all the indications are that it is now a much worse country, amazingly it does have a worse government (the tyranny of the Shia instead of the tyranny of the Sunni), it has much worse services, last time I looked it had lower oil production and the Sunni/Shia relations have totally broken down. The personal tragedy for families with mixed Sunni/Shia marriages alone is something for which the coalition of the willing should be truly ashamed.

How can anyone look at having destroyed a country for 5 years and feel proud. Wunala, it is not only unbelievable, it is disgusting.
 
slider
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RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:08 am



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 50):
We haven't talked to Iran since 1979. So no, the time is not over, it hasn't even started. Or at least until last month when we finally came to our senses.

Yeah, well, we have long memories. Nov 4, 1979, to be precise.

And when the dude on the other side of the table that we AREN'T sitting down to is yammering away like a crazy crack whore about how Israel must be destroyed, there are no gays in Iran, and how the entire Western world is out to get them, either that dude (Imanutjob) either needs electrical shock treatment, an extra dose of lithium, or a cap in his ass.

But never to be recognized dpilomatically.

Of course, this could be avoided if the US withdrew it's troops from over 130 countries and started worrying about minding the store instead of all the other countries.

Berlin and Paris have more to worry about with their proximity to Teheran than does Washington. Let the little crackpot holler all he wants. Israel's a big boy now too--they can handle their own defense, but that's a different post altogether.

The fact is that, as it pertains to this thread, Obama is WOEFULLY inept in terms of having any comprehension of history, therefore he is inept in having any understanding of foreign policy, ergo he is a dangerous option in a world that might have threats to the USA.
 
baroque
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RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:01 am



Quoting Slider (Reply 53):
Yeah, well, we have long memories. Nov 4, 1979, to be precise.

If that is a reason to be huffy towards a nation, imagine how long before Iraq talks to you without remembering being invaded for no good reason, or none that you stated ahead of the event. Removing ruler, BTW is officially off the menu for civilized states. Otherwise who knows who would try to remove whom. Just as most countries had a tacit agreement not to try to assassinate the leader.

Just be careful with exceptionalism, it can bite.
 
jm017
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RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:59 pm



Quoting A346Dude (Reply 2):
The only light he knows is the one in the Oval Office, and he will do or say anything to see it.

That makes him a, what's the word I am looking for? Oh yeah, that makes him a POLITICIAN.
Do you really think McCain is any different? If you do, you haven't been paying attention. They would both sell their mothers to get into the oval office. McCain has even addressed his potent political ambition and how it sometimes gets the better of him.


Geez, all he said was that the surge worked. I know he denied it before, but give it a rest people. Incidentally, there were other factors contributing to the success, not just the increase in the number of troops. But the increase did contribute.
"It's okay to cheat, if you just really don't like to lose."
 
slider
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RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:54 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 54):
Just be careful with exceptionalism, it can bite.

That I totally understand...

I don't disagree. But my point was specifically to Iran.
 
RJdxer
Topic Author
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RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:13 pm



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 50):
Evidently the fact that they come from a country that does not recognise other religions besides Islam slipped by you.

Which is their right to do. It does not mean the the ministers or the King use the State to support them. Or are you promoting the idea tha the Wahhabi's are actually in charge?

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 50):
Saudi Arabia is a fascist regime

It's a modified form of monarchy. Answer the question, have they invaded other soveign nations and used chemical weapons against them?

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 50):
And yet you don't try to get a UN mandate to invade Iran or Russia who claim to have not only WMDs but the intention to use them.

Have the United States stated it is going to bomb or invade Iran? If so when and where? Russia, in the form of the Soviet Union has had WMD's since before WW2. Now clue in and answer the question, when have they used them?

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 50):
They had free and fair elections back in '04 yet that did not prevent them from slaughtering one another under our watch

We have had free and fair elections from 1792 to present. That didn't stop us from having a 4 year period where we killed 620,000 of our own. The question ought to be are they going to be stronger as a nation and are they growing together as a nation. Those questions have yet to be answered.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 50):
The result is now we have to chat with a fascist regime (Iran)

Why? Because we don't like their strongman hiding out there? Get a grip. They have been warned and it worked.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 50):
I'm not talking after the war, but before and during it.

Then I guess our Boy Scouts that go to VMI or any of the military academies are nothing but mind number and brainwashed as well right? You have a great propensity to try and lump political ideology in with the religious.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 50):
The same propaganda the regimes in Saudi Arabia,

BS. It is the religious sect of the Wahhabi that promote that propaganda in Saudi Arabia and there is a major faction of the royal family that does not believe in the Wahhabi way.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 50):
You're changing your tune. Previously you said they were volunteers, so they wouldn't have been sacrificed, they would have sacrificed themselves, willingly

What? Just because you volunteer for the military in this country does not mean you volunteer to commit suicide. But at least one has and he received the Congressional Medal of Honor for saving his fellow SEALS lives by giving up his own. Now if you want to deride that I'll be happy to link this thread via PM with your screen name to ANCflyer, DL021, as well as several others that might have a word or two for you.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 50):
The Government of London?

So they spoke for all the French people? Might want to read up on Winston Churchill's views on that.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 50):
YES, the allies invaded France at the explicit request of the Résistance, then headed by De Gaulle.

They invaded France because they had committed to a second front to Stalin and because it was the easiest way to get to Berlin. The front in Italy was only there to please Churchill as he didn't want the Soviets get a huge chunk of Europe. Read some history sometime.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 50):
Utopian? You don't even know what that means.

Unfortunately for you I do. Your ideas so far are the very definition of Utopia. If we followed your play book no telling how many dead in our own country we'd have by now or how large and dominating AQ would be as well.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 50):
With facts to back me up as YOU started the whole effing thing by stating that I considered Nazi horror a display of cunning and smart politics.

Please quote the post. As I posted, you started the whole thing off in post 16 with your response to my response to StuckInCA. Before that you are not even in the thread!

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 50):
Exactly. But that doesn't answer the question as to why we asked for a mandate in the first place?

We could start with 12 years of deception and disregard of the previous UN agreements. We can go on from there but why waste the time. You're not going to remotely agree that it was the right thing to do so why bother?

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 50):
China, Russia, Pakistan, Iran and allegedly North Korea HAVE WMDs.

Again, have they demonstrated a willingness to use them? Saddam did several times.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 50):
Not cherry-picking.

 rotfl   rotfl  It's all you done, it seems to be all you Utopians are good for. When you get a question asked that you can't answer you just try and steer the argument in another dumbass direction.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 50):
Again. Get your facts right.

When you show you have a grasp of the facts, well that will be the first time so far in this thread.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 50):
honestly, can you not come up with any form of constructive argument?

 rotfl   rotfl  Versus no argument at all as in your case? All you have are incorrectly obtained assumptions. Just because the hijackers were Saudi somehow means the government of Saudi Arabia is terrorist? Now there's a leap. Better land on your head so you don't hurt yourself.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
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Aaron747
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RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:35 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 57):
It is the religious sect of the Wahhabi that promote that propaganda in Saudi Arabia and there is a major faction of the royal family that does not believe in the Wahhabi way.

Not so fast there RJ. You know as well as anyone else on this board, including some of our more eloquent posters from the region, that the only reason any Saudi royal has for not being on board with fundamentalist Islam is wealth most Muslims can't even comprehend.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
RJdxer
Topic Author
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RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:52 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 57):
Not so fast there RJ.

Common Aaron, you know as well as I that there are two competing Crown Princes. One is a die hard Wahabbi and the other is not. Neither has enough power to assume the thrown when the time comes.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
jm017
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RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:11 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 50):

"The book also says that the U.S. troop "surge" of 2007, in which President Bush sent nearly 30,000 additional U.S. combat forces and support troops to Iraq, was not the primary factor behind the steep drop in violence there during the past 16 months.

Rather, Woodward reports, "groundbreaking" new covert techniques enabled U.S. military and intelligence officials to locate, target and kill insurgent leaders and key individuals in extremist groups such as al-Qaeda in Iraq."

and:

"Overall, Woodward writes, four factors combined to reduce the violence: the covert operations; the influx of troops; the decision by militant cleric Moqtada al-Sadr to rein in his powerful Mahdi Army; and the so-called Anbar Awakening, in which tens of thousands of Sunnis turned against al-Qaeda in Iraq and allied with U.S. forces."

Thank you for posting this. This has been mentioned before, but not often enough.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 51):
Iraq might not have been a great country and had a lousy government, but all the indications are that it is now a much worse country, amazingly it does have a worse government (the tyranny of the Shia instead of the tyranny of the Sunni), it has much worse services, last time I looked it had lower oil production and the Sunni/Shia relations have totally broken down. The personal tragedy for families with mixed Sunni/Shia marriages alone is something for which the coalition of the willing should be truly ashamed.

Anyone honest would have to admit the war was a mistake, no matter their stance before the invasion.
"It's okay to cheat, if you just really don't like to lose."
 
Ken777
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:14 pm



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 27):
Bush's legacy will be along the same lines of Harry Truman.

W is no Harry Truman. Not even close. His father might be close, but not W.

History will judge Bush on a wide range of areas, including the economy, home foreclosures, budget deficit, etc.

Quoting Beta (Reply 42):
Last time we had a leader who governed more or less by the polls, he is still trying to explain what "is" is. Get it?

While we remember what "was" was. Like a budget surplus, a far better economy, a volunteer military that wasn't beaten down by excessive deployments (both in length and frequency) and a lot of other issues that W has given us.
 
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seb146
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RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:20 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 56):
Just because the hijackers were Saudi somehow means the government of Saudi Arabia is terrorist?

What did the house of Saud do to stop Osama bin Laden? Oh, that's right.... the bin Laden family is one of the richest families in Saudi Arabia.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 56):
there is a major faction of the royal family that does not believe in the Wahhabi way.

Yet, the house of Saud (America's allies according to W) let the madrasas stay and accept new recruits. The house of Saud allows the teacing of Wahhabi Islam.

Quoting JM017 (Reply 59):
Thank you for posting this. This has been mentioned before, but not often enough.

Wasn't there payments to insurgent groups as well if they fought along side American soldiers during the surge?

Also, what about W "not negotiating with terrorists" yet closing the bin Sultan air base in Saudia Arabia just after the Sept 11 attacks, which was one of the main reasons Osama bin Laden attacked the United States. What about W and "not withdrawing from Iraq until mission accomplished" and not leaving Iraq until the country is secure up until just a few months ago. Now, W and the rest of the conservatives are flip-flopping and urging withdraw ahead of the elections. Talk about pandering.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
RJdxer
Topic Author
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RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:17 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 61):
What did the house of Saud do to stop Osama bin Laden?

They took away his citizenship and deported him.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 61):
Oh, that's right.... the bin Laden family is one of the richest families in Saudi Arabia.

So your advocating that if someone in your family robs a bank and kills someone in the process we should execute you too.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 61):
The house of Saud allows the teacing of Wahhabi Islam.

And we allow the teaching of any kind of religion. I'm not saying it's right but it is their country. Again, as with other posters I'll ask the same question. Can you point out where the Saudis have attacked another country or used state supported terrorists to do their bidding, or developed and used chemical, biological weapons?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
WunalaYann
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RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:40 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 56):
Answer the question, have they invaded other soveign nations and used chemical weapons against them?

No, they simply finance terrorist cells the world over. Care to explain the difference to me in terms of ideology? "I hate you so I'll invade you", as opposed to "I hate you so I'll send kamikaze in crowded market places". Hmm, yes, indeed. One is good and one is bad, correct?  sarcastic 

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 56):
Or are you promoting the idea tha the Wahhabi's are actually in charge?

The mere fact that other religions are banned (as opposed to being the official religion of any given state, which is a different concept altogether unless you consider the UK to be a bloody hating dictatorship) in Saudi Arabia is a proof that one of the most backwards, hating sects possesses tremendous leverage there. And we've been hearing about the "transition" in Saudi Arabia for 20 years with no light at the end of the tunnel so far.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 56):
Have the United States stated it is going to bomb or invade Iran?

We're certainly not ruling it out, and not doing anything to calm things down between Israel and Iran.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 56):
Now clue in and answer the question, when have they used them?

Let me set this straight. The justification for asking for a UN mandate to invade Iraq was the potential for Iraq to develop and use WMDs, not the fact that it had made use of chemical weapons to genocide the Kurds. The key here is "potential", not "actual use". Hence the term "preventive war". Or did you miss that bit, too?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 56):
That didn't stop us from having a 4 year period where we killed 620,000 of our own. The question ought to be are they going to be stronger as a nation and are they growing together as a nation. Those questions have yet to be answered.

 checkmark  Believe it or not, I agree with you 100%. Where I think we have different views is on the use of this past tragic experience to enlighten our decisions today. A country that was homogeneous from an ethnic, cultural and religious standpoint managed to launch the deadliest war in its (admittedly short) history against its own people. Now how do you think such a scenario would pan out in a fragmented, millennium-old patchwork of tribes and cultures? I am not being a smartypants here, I am asking an honest yet loaded question.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 56):
Why? Because we don't like their strongman hiding out there? Get a grip.

You know fully well that we are (at last, finally) talking with Iran because it is the key to stabilising Iraq. Because Iran has very heavy clout on the Shi'i factions and the power plays there.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 56):
They have been warned and it worked.

Who has been warned and what worked????

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 56):
Then I guess our Boy Scouts that go to VMI or any of the military academies are nothing but mind number and brainwashed as well right? You have a great propensity to try and lump political ideology in with the religious.

Your bad faith is astounding. Are you trying to compare the training of soldiers in Western countries with that of their Nazi-Germany or Imperial Japan former counterparts??? Honestly, you really are pushing the limits of reason into total lunacy. Our soldiers are not taught to go after what was described in Nazi Germany as lower forms of human beings. Our soldiers are trained to protect civilian populations while taking out non-conventional fighters who use human shields. YOU are the one insulting our soldiers by comparing their training to Nazi brain-washing.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 56):
BS. It is the religious sect of the Wahhabi that promote that propaganda in Saudi Arabia and there is a major faction of the royal family that does not believe in the Wahhabi way.

Absolutely not BS at all. Wahhabi Islam is the religion of Saudi Arabia, as evidenced here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi#Saudi_sponsorship

Since you keep accusing me of not having facts, I am the only one here providing sources to back up my arguments. You may want to make a few google searches yourself. It might expand your horizon a bit...

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 56):
What? Just because you volunteer for the military in this country does not mean you volunteer to commit suicide

Agreed. Remember, I am the one lamenting the loss of 4000 of our soldiers.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 56):
Now if you want to deride that I'll be happy to link this thread via PM with your screen name to ANCflyer, DL021, as well as several others that might have a word or two for you.

Deride???? But you are completely out of your mind. But do bring Ian and Pep in here. I have had a few discussions with them and never was accused of being a "Utopian" (by the way, have a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia and tell me where it says "drop your pants in front of your first enemy"). Again, I support the toppling of the Al Saoud and Qadafi.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 56):
So they spoke for all the French people? Might want to read up on Winston Churchill's views on that.

Considering la France Libre was the only government body that could speak freely at the time then yes, they spoke for "all the French people" who, I will remind you, were occupied by Nazi Germany (not exactly my definition of UK-like freedom of speech).

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 56):
We could start with 12 years of deception and disregard of the previous UN agreements.

Then maybe we should invade Israel as well, considering they have also been in violation of a few UN resolutions. Or Guantanamo? Or Sudan? Priorities, priorities...

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 56):
When you get a question asked that you can't answer you just try and steer the argument in another dumbass direction.

All questions answered. With links to enlighten you as well. Now return the favour and we'll see.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 56):
All you have are incorrectly obtained assumptions. Just because the hijackers were Saudi somehow means the government of Saudi Arabia is terrorist?

Again, have a look at the links I have provided which you seem to disregard. As opposed to you not providing anything at all.  Smile

Or has THAT escaped your attention as well?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 56):
Better land on your head so you don't hurt yourself.

 rotfl  Still waiting for any links to substantiate your BS.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 62):
So your advocating that if someone in your family robs a bank and kills someone in the process we should execute you too.

Your ability to stretch people's words and twist them into something that was never intended in the first place is matchless. Congrats to you on that, you'd make a very successful politician.

Still waiting for your sources, by the way...
 
Beta
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RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:02 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 60):
While we remember what "was" was. Like a budget surplus, a far better economy, a volunteer military that wasn't beaten down by excessive deployments (both in length and frequency) and a lot of other issues that W has given us

The budget surplus was for the most part the result of the opposition party in control of Congress, namely the Republican at the time. Bill Clinton, being the sensible politician that he is, just went along with it. Finest example of check and balance in legislative and executive branch. Had the Democrats in charge of the Congress at the time, I had no doubt Bill Clinton would have spent money like a drunken sailor, like Bush and the Republican Congress now. Spending someone's else money is intoxicating to all politicians, regardless of party affiliation.
Bill Clinton had very little to do with the tech driven economy in the 90s. He was smart in staying out of the way and let it hum along. Have you ever heard of the term "irrational exuberance" uttered at the time by the closest thing to a living deity on planet Earth, Allen Greenspan? It was the tech bubble which drove the economy and eventually bursted at the end of Clinton's term, and the economy took a dip. Silicon Valley was in the doldrum at that time, and has never really recovered from that. I suggest you go to the library and read up on the economy in The Economist issues, and educate yourself re. the economy under Pres. Clinton. I'm of the opinion that the President, any President, has very little to do with economy, except making it worse by raising business tax and let inflation running rampant, a la Jimmy Carter, unless the President is prepared to spend massively like FDR or Ronald Reagan with the defense build-up.
Sure. The military under Bush has been ravaged by the uptempo of deployment and operations. No question. However, it was not that better under Clinton. I understand that you served in the Navy at some point. Go ask some of the NSW SEAL operators, and other special operation guys: "how was it back in the Clinton days?" Fact was prior to OEF, there was a massive exodus of experienced special ops operators, and in the conventional forces because they fed up with the way the CINC at the time ran the military. SOC was having problems fielding experienced spec ops teams in the beginning of OEF. Sure, there is ongoing hemorrhage of experienced special ops operators to private contractors right now, but the reason is entirely different.
Look. I dont want to defend Bush. He's a reckless idiot. But that does not mean everything he ever did was wrong, and everything was golden under Clinton. Just because you hate what Bush II did does not make Clinton a Mount Rushmore President. Far from it. And there is no credible indication that things will be better with Obama either.

[Edited 2008-09-06 20:05:42]
 
Beta
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RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:41 am



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 60):
Quoting JCS17 (Reply 27):
Bush's legacy will be along the same lines of Harry Truman.

W is no Harry Truman. Not even close. His father might be close, but not W.

History will judge Bush on a wide range of areas, including the economy, home foreclosures, budget deficit, etc.

I honestly do not know why Truman was revered as such?? I understand he had legion of fans, but to me Truman was one of the butchers of the 20th century. He was the only one in the history of mankind to unleash the awesome and destructive power of nuclear weapons, not once, but twice, and incinerated hundreds of thousands of people, most of whom were the young, the old, and women, and condemned hundreds of thousands others to the effect of irradiation many years later. Personally if I were a politician, I would be offended to have my name in the same sentence as Harry Truman.
History will judge Bush II with objective and critical eyes many years down the road, free of emotion. If Iraq turned out successful, (there is mighty doubt that she will), America's posture would be enhanced immeasurably in the ME, with a direct line of communication from Iraq, at the heart of the ME, through Iran (the Islamic theocracy will inevtiably fall) and Afghanistan aiming straight at another resouce rich regon, the Caucasus. If that were to happen, then Bush II would be looked upon more kindly by hx. Personally I doubt it.
 
dl757md
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RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:19 am



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 22):
Quoting RJdxer (Reply 18):
Those 4000 soldiers died for a belief that what we were doing was right. Most of them volunteered to be there, almost all of them volunteered to go back.

Possibly. Yet their beliefs do not weigh much in the face of their death, now do they? And go tell that to their families...

So one's beliefs don't weigh much in the face of their death? Tell that to Martin Luther King Jr's family. Unless you have a loved one in this war you really have nothing but an uninformed opinion to back up your little gem above. I love how you surreptitiously belittle the pride that most families of soldiers KIA in this war have. You think their personal pain in losing a loved one is the only emotion they must be experiencing. Sorry to rain on your parade but to the vast majority of us our loved one's beliefs weigh everything despite their deaths, maybe not to you, but they do to us.....but thanks for the slap in the face. Good on ya mate!
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
WunalaYann
Posts: 2128
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:55 am

RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:06 am



Quoting Dl757md (Reply 66):
You think their personal pain in losing a loved one is the only emotion they must be experiencing.

No I don't. Anger at such a loss of life and waste of resources are other very strong feelings they are experiencing. I am a dual citizen of Australia and France and we have been hit quite hard by recent killings in Afghanistan, with due respect to the relative size of our contingents there. I can guarantee you that the families of the soldiers killed in action are not exactly basking in the glory of their sons/husbands/fathers' beliefs right at this time. And you don't know if these soldiers held any particular beliefs when they went there.

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 66):
Sorry to rain on your parade

Any water is welcome here, so please feel free to believe that you're raining on anyone's parade as we badly need it.  sarcastic 

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 66):
Tell that to Martin Luther King Jr's family.

Are you seriously comparing the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr with the deaths of soldiers in action? That in itself discredits your entire post.

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 66):
Unless you have a loved one in this war you really have nothing but an uninformed opinion to back up your little gem above.

I have fellow countrymen there and that in itself guarantees my full support to them and their families regardless of my opinion on the war itself. You have no right to deny me an opinion on the subject. But obviously that notion slipped by you as well...

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 66):
I love how you surreptitiously belittle the pride that most families of soldiers KIA in this war have.

Where exactly in my posts have you seen me refer to the pride of soldiers' family? Nowhere. So I'm not belittling anyone's beliefs. But it's so much easier to put words in someone else's mouth, ini't?

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 66):
but thanks for the slap in the face.

Oh please. Again, I have repeatedly stated how devastating the loss of life was, soldiers included, in ALL my posts so far. Can you even read?

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 63):
Agreed. Remember, I am the one lamenting the loss of 4000 of our soldiers.



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 49):
My point is that we could have achieved better results by not taking down an entire state and throwing its population to the lions (factions, mafias, terrorists and other assorted criminals). And by the same token, nearly 5000 soldiers would probably still be alive by now.

Slap in the face... My backside.  sarcastic 

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 66):
Good on ya mate!

A display of cross-cultural understanding? Very cerebral.  sarcastic 
 
dl757md
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 9:32 am

RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:02 am

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 67):
Anger at such a loss of life and waste of resources are other very strong feelings they are experiencing.

As far as Americans go, which is what I take your 4000 to mean. Some yes, most no.

[

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 67):
I am a dual citizen of Australia and France and we have been hit quite hard by recent killings in Afghanistan, with due respect to the relative size of our contingents there. I can guarantee you that the families of the soldiers killed in action are not exactly basking in the glory of their sons/husbands/fathers' beliefs right at this time. And you don't know if these soldiers held any particular beliefs when they went there.

Nope, I can't as I'm neither Austrailian nor French. My point which you entirely ignore is that you speak of American war dead families as though you know what they are going through. You not being a memeber of one and not even being an American citizen have little relevance in a conversation about them yet you bloviate about their experience.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 67):
Are you seriously comparing the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr with the deaths of soldiers in action? That in itself discredits your entire post.

Not exactly. Just trying to to point out that just because you or anybody else don't feel that those soldiers beliefs matter much doesn't mean they don't to others. Many people couldn't have cared less about MLKs assasination. Does that disqualify the importance of his beliefs to those that shared them. Of course not.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 67):
Quoting Dl757md (Reply 66):
Unless you have a loved one in this war you really have nothing but an uninformed opinion to back up your little gem above.

I have fellow countrymen there and that in itself guarantees my full support to them and their families regardless of my opinion on the war itself. You have no right to deny me an opinion on the subject. But obviously that notion slipped by you as well...

I can't deny you of your opinion nor did I. I disagree with it and am offended by it as it generalizes and belittles the experience of thousands of people you don't know including myself, but it is your's and I can't take that away from you.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 67):
Where exactly in my posts have you seen me refer to the pride of soldiers' family? Nowhere. So I'm not belittling anyone's beliefs. But it's so much easier to put words in someone else's mouth, ini't?

What exactly then did you mean by "And go tell that to their families" in this quote:

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 22):
Possibly. Yet their beliefs do not weigh much in the face of their death, now do they? And go tell that to their families...



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 67):
Oh please. Again, I have repeatedly stated how devastating the loss of life was, soldiers included, in ALL my posts so far. Can you even read?

I get that you are devastated by the loss of life and aren't belittling that loss of life. What I'm saying is that you seem to assume that most if not all of the families of of Americans KIA in Iraq don't feel pride in their loved one's sacrifice for their beliefs. Is that not what you meant? That is the slap in the face I'm talking about...and yes. I can read.

[Edited 2008-09-07 00:37:52]
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
WunalaYann
Posts: 2128
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RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:40 am



Quoting Dl757md (Reply 68):
As far as Americaans go, which is what I take your 4000 to mean.

My use of the pronoun "we" since the beginning of this thread is deliberately inclusive as unlike some of my countrymen, I believe we are all in it together. Australian soldiers have paid a price too, although of course not anywhere near even comparable to that of the American military. Saving Iraq is not any more an American mission than it is Polish, Greek or Japanese. It is a matter of helping a nation emerge from a chaos that we brought upon it.

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 68):
My point which you entirely ignore is that you speak of American war dead families as though you know what they are going through.

See above. Obviously I am talking about every family of every fallen soldier in Iraq.

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 68):
Just trying to to point out that just because you or anybody else don't feel that those soldiers beliefs matter much

Their beliefs matter. I never said they didn't. I said they didn't matter much in the face of their death as obviously now that they are dead, they cannot hold these beliefs anymore, can they? Now as to what their loved ones believe, I think it is an entirely different story.

Indeed families of fallen soldiers have every right to continue to hold these beliefs, I never talked about their legitimacy. Goodness, everyone is allowed to hold beliefs, now aren't they???

But can noble beliefs actually compensate for the devastation of losing a son/husband/brother/whatever significant other may apply? Looking at the outrage caused by the deaths of Australian and French soldiers in my countries, I can honestly tell you that no, it doesn't work that way where I come from and live.


Quoting Dl757md (Reply 68):
What exactly then did you mean by "And go tell that to their families" in this quote:

Please see above.

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 68):
I can't deny you of your opinion nor did I. I disagree with it and am offended by it as it generalizes and belittles the experience of thousands of people you don't know including myself, but it is your's and I can't take that away from you.

Thank you for respecting that, and I apologise to you if I have offended you, as it obviously was not my intention at all. I hope my explanation clears the air and if not I am more than happy to discuss further via PM.
 
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seb146
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RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:28 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 62):
They took away his citizenship and deported him.

That helped so much, didn't it? Not to mention the fact that Bush I was meeting with the bin Laden family on the morning of Sept 11 in Washington and they were flown out of the country that day. They were given rights to leave, yet no one could scramble the Air Force when four passenger jets were veering off course, making U-turns over the East?

I mean, Oliver North gave sworn testimony that Osama bin Laden was a danger to this country. Did anyone ever think of asking Saudi Arabia's help in capturing him? No. The answer to Osama was to close the Bin Sultan Air Base in Saudi Arabia. But, Bush does not bend to or negotiate with terrorists.

The Right gets so upset because of Rev. Wright. We have to be careful of who our leaders associate with, but they let slide the whole issue of the bin Laden family and the House of Saud because why? They have oil and they are friends with our president.

And Dems are hypocrites?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 62):
So your advocating that if someone in your family robs a bank and kills someone in the process we should execute you too

Robbing a bank and organizing a mass murder are not the same thing. If the bin Laden family were such a magnanamous group, they would renounce their Saudi citizenship on the basis of human rights. They would oppose the government at every turn. Something to show they are actually good and upstanding citizens. Yet, they continue to allow women to be treated as the lowest form of life. Some of them come to the United States and gamble, drink, and solicit hookers while being upright Muslims. Sounds like a Conservative to me!

BTW, I have decided to stop calling them Republicans because they have not come close to holding the Republican ideals for some time.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
baroque
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RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:32 pm



Quoting Beta (Reply 65):
He was the only one in the history of mankind to unleash the awesome and destructive power of nuclear weapons, not once, but twice, and incinerated hundreds of thousands of people, most of whom were the young, the old, and women, and condemned hundreds of thousands others to the effect of irradiation many years later. Personally if I were a politician, I would be offended to have my name in the same sentence as Harry Truman.

Where do you get your numbers from? IIRC one of the fire bomb raids on Tokyo killed more than either of the nuclear weapons, and that was under the command of FDR IIRC (March 10 so just over a month to go).

I wonder what number of civilian Iraqis you think have been killed - my money would be on the less than 100k fiction.

You could probably work out if someone was an Obama supporter by asking how many casualties they thought had occurred in Iraq.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 69):
Saving Iraq is not any more an American mission than it is Polish, Greek or Japanese. It is a matter of helping a nation emerge from a chaos that we brought upon it.

But it is probably worth while noting that Iraq will never emerge from that chaos while the occupying powers are in denial about how that chaos was brought about. Which in itself is a very strong case in favour of Obama. McCain might be better than Bush but barely noticeable. At least Obama brings a fresh view to a continuing disaster.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:43 pm

OBAMA ADMITS MUSLIM FAITH IN INTERVIEW  laughing 

Slip of the tongue got him caught. It is only 11 seconds long but it is great..  embarrassed 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKGdk...tions.com/forum1/message601987/pg3
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
PSA727
Posts: 850
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RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:12 pm



Quoting Beta (Reply 65):
I honestly do not know why Truman was revered as such?? I understand he had legion of fans, but to me Truman was one of the butchers of the 20th century. He was the only one in the history of mankind to unleash the awesome and destructive power of nuclear weapons, not once, but twice, and incinerated hundreds of thousands of people, most of whom were the young, the old, and women, and condemned hundreds of thousands others to the effect of irradiation many years later. Personally if I were a politician, I would be offended to have my name in the same sentence as Harry Truman.

Are you serious? Harry Truman was probably the last greatest President the Democrats
had in office. Truman used his conscience wisely, and did not care what affect his decisions
would have on his popularity. He took a lot of risks because he believed in what he was
doing. As for the atom bomb issue, FDR and Churchill made decisions which killed far
more German civilians by conventional bombs than had died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I agree, GWB is no Truman. The main reason: Truman assumed the Presidency completely
in the dark. FDR and his Cabinet kept him out of the loop the short time he was V.P.
He did not even know about the Manhattan Project until he was sworn in as President.
Given what Truman walked into, he did an incredible job in office. There are only a few of
his decisions with which I disagree. The atom bomb issue is not one of them.
fly high, pay low...Germanwings!
 
WunalaYann
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RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:43 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 71):
But it is probably worth while noting that Iraq will never emerge from that chaos while the occupying powers are in denial about how that chaos was brought about.

 checkmark  Definitely agree. I believe that we should NOT leave Iraq any time soon. I also think that acknowledging what a colossal mistake it was to invade it in the first place would be a very good first step.

We should have never gone there the way we did, but now that we are there, we should do everything and more to ensure the safety and security of the Iraqi people.

 Smile
 
upsmd11
Posts: 650
Joined: Sat May 17, 2003 10:56 am

RE: OMG Has Obama Finally Seen The Light?

Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:39 pm



Quoting Flanker (Reply 1):
Bunch of crap. He wouldn't know the light if it hit him in the face.

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