flynavy
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MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:44 am

http://www.michiganmessenger.com/4076/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote

Quote:
The chairman of the Republican Party in Macomb County Michigan, a key swing county in a key swing state, is planning to use a list of foreclosed homes to block people from voting in the upcoming election as part of the state GOP’s effort to challenge some voters on Election Day.

“We will have a list of foreclosed homes and will make sure people aren’t voting from those addresses,” party chairman James Carabelli told Michigan Messenger in a telephone interview earlier this week. He said the local party wanted to make sure that proper electoral procedures were followed.

And, ironically...

Quote:
The Macomb GOP’s plans are another indication of how John McCain’s campaign stands to benefit from the burgeoning number of foreclosures in the state. McCain’s regional headquarters are housed in the office building of foreclosure specialists Trott & Trott. The firm’s founder, David A. Trott, has raised between $100,000 and $250,000 for the Republican nominee.

Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.

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LAXintl
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:48 am

Well Yes.

How is it fair for people to vote in a city/county where they are no longer residing in?

Its called voter fraud!

[Edited 2008-09-10 23:53:27]
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flynavy
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:58 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
How is it fair for people to vote in a city/county where they are no longer residing in?

In many cases, depending on how far deep into the process they are, people in foreclosure still reside in their homes.

Of course, I'm not entirely surprised to see you rise to the occasion and support this tactic.
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LAXintl
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:16 am

For discussion sake -- looked up what the law here in California is...

1) You are required to be registered to vote at your current address
2) You must notify DMV of moving to a new address within 10 days. Thru the states motor voter laws, DMV can update your county registrar if you request such and fill out appropriate documents.
3) Same county move within 15 days of election - voter needs to fill out a new voter registration form and can be issued a provisional ballot
4) Out of county move within 15 days of election - ineligible to vote as one must comply with normal registration deadline for that election.

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 2):
Of course, I'm not entirely surprised to see you rise to the occasion and support this tactic.

I would hope everyone would support attempts to eliminate potential voter fraud.

The sickening politics with of yesteryear with grossly inaccurate voter rolls, or even dead people voting have no place in our election process.
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TUNisia
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:22 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
How is it fair for people to vote in a city/county where they are no longer residing in?

Are you that out of touch? Just because someone gets their home taken back from the bank doesn't mean they'll flee the county. Most of the time they'll move into a rental property in the same county (esp if their kids need to finish school and they have family there).

Just seems like a GOP tactic to block votes. The GOP is up to their old tricks again, just like they told college kids in VA they can't vote in VA but rather need to return to their home states. BS!
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LAXintl
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:35 am



Quoting TUNisia (Reply 4):
Just because someone gets their home taken back from the bank doesn't mean they'll flee the county. Most of the time they'll move into a rental property in the same county

Which is fine -- they just need to re register to their new address. Pretty simple.

Any yes moving even the slightest can effect things. For example moons ago when renting I moved a whole 4 blocks, and that put me in a different Congressional and State Assembly districts along with a new polling location.

So yes its important for people to update their address as it certainly not right for them to be voting based on a residence which is no longer current.
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baroque
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:44 am

At this distance, it does seem that the US as a non-existent philosophical entity does a good imitation of not wanting everyone to vote. In Aus I think there is a penalty for failing to register and failing to keep records up to date - curiously the documents I can find from Aus gov do not mention this. Equally amusing is the difficulty of persuading Google to tell me about Aus elections and not the US one.

This sounds like the overture to another opera based on the butterfly ballot and hanging chads themes, just updated for the sub-prime!

Rather than cutting folk out from being eligible to vote, would it be such an adventure in democracy to make it normal (let alone compulsory) for everyone to be eligible? (There seems to be a general agreement that folk in prison for terms above a certain level are not welcome, but even that idea should have been shaken a bit too!!)
 
johns624
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:56 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 6):
Rather than cutting folk out from being eligible to vote, would it be such an adventure in democracy to make it normal (let alone compulsory) for everyone to be eligible?

They are eligible. They just have to vote where they actually live. That way, they won't be making choices in local elections that don't concern them. Sorta like someone moving from Sydney to one of its suburbs but not changing his address and voting in the Sydney mayoral election.
 
CMHSRQ
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:18 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 6):
At this distance, it does seem that the US as a non-existent philosophical entity does a good imitation of not wanting everyone to vote. In Aus I think there is a penalty for failing to register and failing to keep records up to date - curiously the documents I can find from Aus gov do not mention this. Equally amusing is the difficulty of persuading Google to tell me about Aus elections and not the US one.

This sounds like the overture to another opera based on the butterfly ballot and hanging chads themes, just updated for the sub-prime!

Rather than cutting folk out from being eligible to vote, would it be such an adventure in democracy to make it normal (let alone compulsory) for everyone to be eligible? (There seems to be a general agreement that folk in prison for terms above a certain level are not welcome, but even that idea should have been shaken a bit too!!)

No you are 100% wrong, the right to vote is that, a right. However you are only allowed to vote once. If you have a forecloseED (as in its done) home and you are living in an apartment or some other address they just want to make sure you don't go vote in the precinct that the house is in, then go vote in the precinct that the apartment is in. Don't you think its a good idea to have to prove who you are to vote? The OP shouldn't be disgusted at all nor should anyone else reading the post. It doesn't matter if your GOP or DEM, the law is the law. This isn't Kenya.
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Mir
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:01 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
The sickening politics with of yesteryear with grossly inaccurate voter rolls, or even dead people voting have no place in our election process.

Nor does disenfranchising those who have had houses foreclosed, which could be considered a form of poll tax.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
as it certainly not right for them to be voting based on a residence which is no longer current.

Depends. In a local election, it matters. In a presidential election, there is pretty much no difference between voting in one precinct in a state and voting in another precinct in the same state. If you want to deny people the ability to vote in the local elections due to residency, but they should be allowed to vote for the governor, the congressmen, and the president. Those who put this idea forward are not interested in ensuring the fairness of local elections, but rather keeping those with foreclosures (who tend to be lower income voters, who tend to be democratic) from voting for president.

Another thing: how the hell is the chairman of the GOP in the county in charge of the voting? Conflict of interest much?

-Mir
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dtwclipper
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:07 pm

In Michigan there is a six month redemption period once the Foreclosure process and sheriff sale has begun.

Within that period you may reside in your home, as well as make attempts to purchase the home back.

If it goes past the six month period, and they are forced to move, then it is their responsibility to go to the Michigan Secretary of State (our DMV) and register with a new address.
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baroque
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:10 pm



Quoting CMHSRQ (Reply 8):
No you are 100% wrong, the right to vote is that, a right. However you are only allowed to vote once. If you have a forecloseED (as in its done) home and you are living in an apartment or some other address they just want to make sure you don't go vote in the precinct that the house is in, then go vote in the precinct that the apartment is in. Don't you think its a good idea to have to prove who you are to vote? The OP shouldn't be disgusted at all nor should anyone else reading the post. It doesn't matter if your GOP or DEM, the law is the law. This isn't Kenya.

I think you might have missed a point here. We have an electoral list. That is it. So moving to another location does not give you a benefit in terms of voting.

If you no longer lived in Sydney but wished to vote there are had kept that address I guess you could vote. Just you could not vote anywhere else. Our electoral commission keeps good tabs on who votes. Cos if you dont vote they need to send out a nice little invitation to explain why you are not going to be fined.

Actually, the problem seems to be that instead of simplicity, you guys go for inordinate complexity.

I might point out that if you cannot register, you are not eligible. So I might be wrong, but surely not a whole 100%. Not easy to manage that you know.

I was trying to suggest that all should be allowed to register. As Mir rather suggests, being picky as to your residence at the time is rather like finding obstacles to ELIGIBILITY - by the back door. And if you are not allowed to register what has happened to that right - RIGHT?
 
rfields5421
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:12 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
Another thing: how the hell is the chairman of the GOP in the county in charge of the voting? Conflict of interest much?

He is not in charge.

But in practically every voting place across the entire United States there are observers (title varies by location) from each political party.

Those observers can challenge any person's eligibility to vote at any time. The Election Judges (again title varies by location) are the local government certified administrators of the voting place.

They can make a ruling. Both the voter and the political party observer have the right to appeal that decision to county officials.

The party hacks will appeal any decision against them - the voters usually just get pissed and leave.

Many states have "disputed ballot" boxes - where challenged voters are allowed to cast a ballot - but it is not included in the regular count. Disputed ballots are dealt with on a case by case basis.

The planned tactic is a bit of dirty politics.

However, voting with a voting card / address when you have moved is just as underhanded - and is ILLEGAL in all 50 states. The only variation is the number of days grace period you have to vote.

There is a very simple way to avoid the Republican challenges - vote absentee / early voting.
 
PSA727
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:14 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 6):
Rather than cutting folk out from being eligible to vote, would it be such an adventure in democracy to make it normal (let alone compulsory) for everyone to be eligible?

No one is having their eligibility to vote taken away. The onus falls upon the individual to
have his/her current address on file with the registrar of voters. A ballot has more than
just that for President. There are congressional, state, local initiatives, which are quite
jurisdiction specific. If people want to vote, then they need to go through the proper and
legal ( the MI GOP did not make up these rules) procedures.

When the Democrats want to tackle voter fraud in Philly, New York, Chicago, etc then
come to me about voter abuse and intimidation. Until then....  Embarrassment
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baroque
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:17 pm



Quoting PSA727 (Reply 13):
When the Democrats want to tackle voter fraud in Philly, New York, Chicago, etc then
come to me about voter abuse and intimidation. Until then..

As Dougloid keeps telling me, "So is yer Auntie" is not a great argument.
 
WellHung
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:44 pm

As Palin exemplified with her "Fannie and Freddie were costing the taxpayers too much money" comment and McCain with his ignorance of the number of houses he owns, many people in this country don't know much about US housing. In fact, after forclosure, banks can (and do!) sell the houses to recoup as much money as possible. So just because a house has been forclosed upon does not mean it does not have a rightful owner.
 
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falstaff
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:13 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
For example moons ago when renting I moved a whole 4 blocks, and that put me in a different Congressional and State Assembly districts along with a new polling location.

Me too, except it was only 3 blocks.

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 13):
When the Democrats want to tackle voter fraud in Philly, New York, Chicago, etc then
come to me about voter abuse and intimidation. Until then....

Don't forget about Detroit.

Quoting CMHSRQ (Reply 8):
It doesn't matter if your GOP or DEM, the law is the law.

It always seems like the biggest cases of voter fraud are always in parts of town with a lot of democrats.

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
but they should be allowed to vote for the governor, the congressmen, and the president.

Not congressmen, those can change by district even in the same county. They could vote for US Senate regardless of location.

Quoting CMHSRQ (Reply 8):
If you have a forecloseED (as in its done) home and you are living in an apartment or some other address they just want to make sure you don't go vote in the precinct that the house is in, then go vote in the precinct that the apartment is in

The voter could even be registered at the new location and their name isn't off the old list yet. Example; In 2000 I voted in the Missouri Primary, but moved to Michigan before the general election. I was registered to vote in Michigan and I voted there. My mom called me and she said that when her and dad went to vote they saw my name was still on the register (they are in alphabetical order). They told the election official that I had moved so I was taken off. I wonder how long I would have been on the role had mom and dad didn't say anything? If I would have known I was "able" to vote in two states I would have voted in Michigan and hopped a flight to STL and voted again... That would have been cool, but illegal.
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rfields5421
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:56 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 16):
I wonder how long I would have been on the role had mom and dad didn't say anything?

Without a national identity card system - purging voter roles of ineligible voters will always be far behind.

I expect my mother to be on the voter list this November. She died in March.

In most states it takes from six months to two years to clear dead people from voter registraiton lists.
 
Superfly
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:01 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 16):
It always seems like the biggest cases of voter fraud are always in parts of town with a lot of democrats.

....and it's always Republicans that are afraid of Democrats voting. Ironically it always happens in a swing state.
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CMHSRQ
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:17 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 16):
The voter could even be registered at the new location and their name isn't off the old list yet. Example; In 2000 I voted in the Missouri Primary, but moved to Michigan before the general election. I was registered to vote in Michigan and I voted there. My mom called me and she said that when her and dad went to vote they saw my name was still on the register (they are in alphabetical order). They told the election official that I had moved so I was taken off. I wonder how long I would have been on the role had mom and dad didn't say anything? If I would have known I was "able" to vote in two states I would have voted in Michigan and hopped a flight to STL and voted again... That would have been cool, but illegal.

Thank you, this was my point. The same thing happened to me in 200 when I moved from Florida to Ohio. If I wanted I could have voted in Ohio, then got on a plane and 4 hours later voted in Florida.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 11):
I think you might have missed a point here. We have an electoral list. That is it. So moving to another location does not give you a benefit in terms of voting.

If you no longer lived in Sydney but wished to vote there are had kept that address I guess you could vote. Just you could not vote anywhere else. Our electoral commission keeps good tabs on who votes. Cos if you dont vote they need to send out a nice little invitation to explain why you are not going to be fined.

Actually, the problem seems to be that instead of simplicity, you guys go for inordinate complexity.

I might point out that if you cannot register, you are not eligible. So I might be wrong, but surely not a whole 100%. Not easy to manage that you know.

I was trying to suggest that all should be allowed to register. As Mir rather suggests, being picky as to your residence at the time is rather like finding obstacles to ELIGIBILITY - by the back door. And if you are not allowed to register what has happened to that right - RIGHT?

See above, we are talking about voting in the US not down under, and we are talking about actual voting not registering.
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allstarflyer
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:31 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Thread starter):
We will have a list of foreclosed homes and will make sure people aren’t voting from those addresses

Sounds lawful, and confirmed by Dtwclipper later on.

Quoting Flynavy (Thread starter):
Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.

Yeah, banks usually feel that way about people defaulting on loans.

Quoting TUNisia (Reply 4):
Just seems like a GOP tactic to block votes.

I'd like to see where it's against the law.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
they just need to re register to their new address. Pretty simple.

 checkmark 

Quoting Baroque (Reply 6):
folk in prison for terms above a certain level are not welcome, but even that idea should have been shaken a bit too

Why?
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MaidensGator
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:47 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
The sickening politics with of yesteryear with grossly inaccurate voter rolls, or even dead people voting have no place in our election process.

Nor does disenfranchising those who have had houses foreclosed, which could be considered a form of poll tax.

Not when all they have to do is update their current address with the voting registrar. Hell, they can live under a bridge as long it's the correct address...

Quoting Baroque (Reply 11):
I was trying to suggest that all should be allowed to register. As Mir rather suggests, being picky as to your residence at the time is rather like finding obstacles to ELIGIBILITY - by the back door. And if you are not allowed to register what has happened to that right - RIGHT?

As has been mentioned, you cannot vote where you do not live. The ballot lists candidates for all positions, not just President...

That being said, it does seem pretty lame to go by foreclosures to try to vet voters at the polls. I would be concerned about people trying to vote more than once, not that they might get to vote for a city councilman from the 2nd District instead of the 3rd, or whatever. The amount of dead people voting has been an issue in past elections. I'd rather that the obituaries were checked than the foreclosure lists...
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
Pyrex
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:48 pm



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 17):
Without a national identity card system - purging voter roles of ineligible voters will always be far behind.

Finally, after 17 replies someone brings up the important topic.
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falstaff
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:52 pm



Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 21):
The amount of dead people voting has been an issue in past elections. I'd rather that the obituaries were checked than the foreclosure lists...

That is a huge problem in Detroit. There are hundreds of dead people who vote in every Detroit Election.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 18):
and it's always Republicans that are afraid of Democrats voting

But it is the democrats who are the ones voting fraudulently. When I was young and foolish I committed voter fraud and voted for Bill Clinton, in 1992, before I was old enough to even register. So even I committed fraud to help elect a democrat. I voted for him legally in 1996.

Democrats are afraid of the right wing talk radio shows and the Republicans are afraid of Democrats voting. I guess we are even.
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dtwclipper
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:18 pm

Here is an update on this, and note the rules for those who have moved!


Lawsuit Filed Against Macomb GOP


Lansing (AP) -- The fight over whether a Republican county chairman ever said he planned to keep homeowners on foreclosure lists from voting took a new twist Tuesday, with Democrats filing a federal lawsuit to stop the alleged practice and the chairman threatening to sue for libel.

Macomb County Republican Party Chairman James Carabelli denied again Tuesday that he had told a writer for Web site MichiganMessenger.com that "we will have a list of foreclosed homes and will make sure people aren't voting from those addresses,'' as the Web site reported last Wednesday.

He said he plans to ask in writing for a retraction and will file a libel lawsuit in Macomb County Circuit Court if he doesn't get one.......
Voters who move within 60 days of an election also can vote at their old polling place, according to the secretary of state's office.

If voters move and change their address 30 or more days before an election, they must vote in their new precinct. If they change their address within 30 days of an election, they must vote in the old precinct.


http://www.wwj.com/Lawsuit-Filed-Against-Macomb-GOP/2976931
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AirCop
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:24 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
How is it fair for people to vote in a city/county where they are no longer residing in?

Its called voter fraud!

Seem to recall Ann Coulter was registered in Florida and a state up north..
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
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RE: MI GOP Using Foreclosures To Block Voters

Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:15 pm



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 20):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 6):
folk in prison for terms above a certain level are not welcome, but even that idea should have been shaken a bit too

Why?

Just a thought because from what we read half of Wall St, and now we learn a goodly part of the Florida mortgage agents should fall in that category and we would not want to be unfair about cutting out major parts of the electorate now would we?

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