Quoting Baroque (Reply 147): None of which by the way has much to do with Obama, but at least he seems more likely to find a solution than his opponent.

I have yet to hear him say "We have to stop government programs pushing mortgages to people who cannot afford them", which would indeed solve the long term problem. If he has in fact said this, please correct me.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 147): suppose you think that GM is doing a fair imitation of falling to pieces just for fun? And of course it is all a dreadful coincidence and nothing to do with slack regulation since 9/11, remember how good irrational exuberance was - news it was not sustainable nor was it good.

GM has been in trouble for 30 years, due to excessive internal costs and their products divisions being run by beancounters. Are you saying that more government regulation of the auto industry might have saved GM?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 150): Quoting Baroque (Reply 147): suppose you think that GM is doing a fair imitation of falling to pieces just for fun? And of course it is all a dreadful coincidence and nothing to do with slack regulation since 9/11, remember how good irrational exuberance was - news it was not sustainable nor was it good.

GM has been run into the ground with piss poor product, awful experimentation of technology that wasn't ready (GM 350 Diesel, Touch Screens in 1987, Demand on Displacement in the 70s, Just terrible interiors, etc), and incompetent leadership and unions.

We work with them a great deal and it's a bureaucratic nightmare, actually pretty typical of many Automotive companies: Too many fiefdoms, silo mentality where divisions don't seem to have a clue what the other is doing, and just idiotic strategy planning.

I shouldn't complain too much..If they weren't so dysfunctional I wouldn't have a job!!

-Sam

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 150): Quoting Baroque (Reply 147): suppose you think that GM is doing a fair imitation of falling to pieces just for fun? And of course it is all a dreadful coincidence and nothing to do with slack regulation since 9/11, remember how good irrational exuberance was - news it was not sustainable nor was it good. GM has been in trouble for 30 years, due to excessive internal costs and their products divisions being run by beancounters. Are you saying that more government regulation of the auto industry might have saved GM?

Not at all, but it is possible that a better health system might have taken some of that load from companies similar to GM. What I was more suggesting was that a combination of various adverse factors including products that were less than adaptable to changing economics has now been hit with a major credit problem that should never have been allowed to develop. Result a different kind of crisis. It bids fair to be the straw that could break the camels back. The credit problems just add to the other woes and make them even more widespread.

A hunt for causes might well start with the many fans of A Greenspan over many moons. Not that he was alone.

But it would also be fair if the numerous US critics of the Greenspan (and similar) policies were given at least a gold star if not a round of applause for having been at least on the right track. Maybe the US media are too conformist to have given the excellent critics air time, but we have heard a great deal from them for at least 7 years and probably a bit longer back into the Clinton administration years.

It is the unhappy juxtaposition of the credit crisis on top of a range of many other adverse factors that has the greatest potential for destructive changes to the US.

And no, please don't remind me of bean counters, I have spent a fair bit of the day with a charming contract supervisor who has been driving me mad trying to squeeze square pegs into his own special version of round holes that bears scant relationship to what his aims are, and doing it through a peculiarly obscure database program that demands answers but never gives you a coherent idea of what the questions were, or indeed your answer - and it is all supposed to make sense. His efforts alone put 10% on the cost from me for starters and I am sure he has many many counterparts and that their cousins are even now beavering away at GM.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 152): Not at all, but it is possible that a better health system might have taken some of that load from companies similar to GM.

In that I would agree, and this is where Obama and McCain part company. Obama wants to oblige companies to provide coverage, whereas McCain appears to want to disassociate health care from the employer.

This is something I entirely agree with. Your employer should have nothing to do with your insurance company, for the simple reason that people change jobs, and you should be able to keep your insurance with the same company even as you move from one employer to another. If the employer wants to help with insurance costs, they can give the employee a little something extra in the paycheck, but having an auto manufacturer having a huge medical exposure is simply nonsense.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 149): Are you seriously trying to argue there is not a problem brought about by foreclosures. If not what in heck are you arguing other than you are always right and everyone you do not like is wrong?

Not at all. The home mortgage market, as pushed by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, along with the U.S. department of Justice in the late 90's, groups like ACORN and politicians like Rep. Frank and Sen. Dodd created and magnified the problem over years. You're saying that you knew a recession was coming and that some how that makes you more knowledgeable than the rest of us is what I object too since as I have stated, if you play the same number in roulette, just like saying a recession is coming, sooner or later your number will hit and a recession will happen. That does not make you some sort of God like prognosticator.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 147): None of which by the way has much to do with Obama, but at least he seems more likely to find a solution than his opponent. This thread is about Obama's plans and policies in case it slipped your mind.

In case you didn't notice, Sen. Obama's plans are up for review on a weekly basis at this point also. Last week he was saying that he would continue to spend as he had planned, despite a 700 billion dollar give away. Today, it seems as if the money press has cooled slightly.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2008/10/13/AR2008101300884.html

What's really interesting is how he beat up Sen. Clinton in the primaries about her idea to freeze mortgages and yet lo and behold, it's in his latest reincarnation of a financial plan.

-- A 90-day moratorium on foreclosures for homeowners who are living in their homes and making good-faith efforts to make their mortgage payments to banks that receive assistance under the $700 billion federal bailout plan.

I wonder if Biden will come out and once again say that Sen. Clinton might have been a better choice for VP, or even President?

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 151): GM has been run into the ground with piss poor product,

GM makes excellent products. Their problem is not in the quality of their vehicles.

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 151): awful experimentation of technology that wasn't ready (GM 350 Diesel, Touch Screens in 1987, Demand on Displacement in the 70s,

Those hastily decisions were made to keep up with government mandated efficiency standards. Also unfair tariffs that favored imported brands and worked against US brands.

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 151): Just terrible interiors,

Hey watch it!   
I am sure you'd agree that a Buick Park Avenue interior is way more comfortable and classier than a sterile BMW interior.

The main problem that GM and many other US-based companies face is the cost of health care. European, Asian and Australian companies don't have this problem because their countries offers health care. These cost are a set price. Hopefully the United States will be on board with this once we get Obama in to office.  

And now the the truth begins to leak out.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10.../obama-plumber-plan-spread-wealth/

"Your new tax plan is going to tax me more, isn't it?" the plumber asked, complaining that he was being taxed "more and more for fulfilling the American dream."

"It's not that I want to punish your success. I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you, that they've got a chance for success too," Obama responded. "My attitude is that if the economy's good for folks from the bottom up, it's gonna be good for everybody ... I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody."

So we are witnessing the end of the America where you were taught that you spent your early years learning all you could and then went out and did the best you could to make something of yourself and you would make your own rewards or your punishment would be to have less than you really could to a nation that is going to be taught that it's not necessary for you to learn things and work hard to better yourself because the government will reward you and will also punish those who do over achieve. Sad sad sad. There have been many threads on "how will the United States end?" and here we are witnessing it about to start happening.

Thank God Jesse Jackson is not a part of Sen. Obama's team. If even half of this is true the next 4 years will be a true disaster.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/10142008...he_o_jesse_knows_133450.htm?page=0

The most important change would occur in the Middle East, where "decades of putting Israel's interests first" would end. Jackson believes that, although "Zionists who have controlled American policy for decades" remain strong, they'll lose a great deal of their clout when Barack Obama enters the White House.

So in other words the middle east situation will quickly escalate into all out war across the board.


Will Obama's election close the chapter of black grievances linked to memories of slavery? The reverend takes a deep breath and waits a long time before responding.
"No, that chapter won't be closed," he says. "However, Obama's victory will be a huge step in the direction we have wanted America to take for decades."

Of course not. If it somehow made up for slavery and forecast the beginning of the end of racism then Rev. Jackson and a few others would have no way to make a buck.

"I don't think this is how things will turn out," he says. "We have a collapsing economy and a war that we have lost in Iraq.

Anyone who wants to dispute that democrats think we have lost in Iraq and want to surrender has no argument to lean on. Too many of the leaders in your party have said so in the past 2 years.

On the economic front, he hopes for "major changes in our trading policy."
"We cannot continue with the open-door policy," he says. "We need to protect our manufacturing industry against unfair competition that destroys American jobs and creates ill-paid jobs abroad."

Someone should clue him in on what happened last time we tried to win a trade war.

His most surprising position concerns Iraq. He passionately denounces the toppling of Saddam Hussein as "an illegal and unjust act."

Then he should come up with a number in dollars that he thinks is fair for reparations.

Again, we are about to see some serious hard times in the United States. If any of the above things come to pass under any administration the consequences will be disastrous for this country.

Look who's for NObama....

Fidel Castro
Hugo Chavez
Louis Farrakhan

Who needs enemies?   


This fellow understands ..... the truth has set him free.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqA_v1fHsyk

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 157): So in other words the middle east situation will quickly escalate into all out war across the board.

Your interpretation of someone's prognostication. How useful  

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 159): Your interpretation of someone's prognostication

If the Arab states still aligned against Israel percieve that it no longer has the full fledged backing of the United States, if Israel percieves that to be the case, how long do you think it will be before someone comitts and act that triggesr war?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 160): If the Arab states still aligned against Israel percieve that it no longer has the full fledged backing of the United States, if Israel percieves that to be the case, how long do you think it will be before someone comitts and act that triggesr war?

So let me get this straight. Somebody says what he thinks might happen if Obama is elected and then you say what you think might happen if that happens. And I'm supposed to argue against it?

Nice fire-hose defense of a foundering McCain/Palin campaign (by abstract attack against Obama). Just spray 'em out there so fast that even if none of the claims have merit, there are so many as to be perceived as substantial.

Now this is really rich ..... and we wonder where the Obama youth came from?
Obama "product placement" in 8th grader's school textbook, 15 pages worth.
You can't put an ad for sugary-sweet Coca Cola in textbooks.....but Obama gets a full spread.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=77957

Shocking.....


How about Obama "product placement" in video games.......
Unbelievable!

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D93QF82G0&show_article=1



Accessing children's lower consciousness to implant Obama-thought.....is preposterous.


Is this who we want to man the "big red button"?  

[Edited 2008-10-14 17:17:02]

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 161): And I'm supposed to argue against it?

I never asked you to say a word. That was by your own choosing.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 161): Just spray 'em out there so fast that even if none of the claims have merit, there are so many as to be perceived as substantial.

Perhaps that is why I prefaced my comments with:

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 157): Thank God Jesse Jackson is not a part of Sen. Obama's team. If even half of this is true the next 4 years will be a true disaster.

A read of the article would tell you that Rev. Jacksons son is good friends with Sen. Obama and has been for years, also that his daughter went to school with Michelle Obama so I wuold have to guess they have a better read on the Obama's than most.

Hofstra University, the host of the final Presidential debate, holds mock slave auctions. {Eek}

http://wcbstv.com/campaign08/mccain.obama.debate.2.840767.html

Quote: The entire campus is buzzing. Historical re-enactments were held 24 hours before Sens. John McCain and Barack Obama take the stage. There was Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass, a mock-slavery auction, women's rights activists and civil rights speakers -- all intended to "engage debate."

Repeat after me ....... R _ C E | C _ R D


Would you like to buy a vowel?   

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 162): Accessing children's lower consciousness to implant Obama-thought.....is preposterous.

It's nothing new. It's been done with Hitler, Kim, Mao, Lenin, Castro. (also note that every one of these were socialists). No American president has been the subject of such adulation - which is one more reason not to vote for him. Such prostrate adoration of a political figure is unhealthy in the extreme.

Now that Obama's socialist leanings are becoming more and more apparent, I am wondering how much TV coverage it is getting. I haven't had the time to watch much TV lately, but I did see Obama's exchange with the Plumber the other day. Is the press ignoring that enlightening little episode?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 165): Plumber the other day. Is the press ignoring that enlightening little episode?

Of course they are , can you imagine if they would have caught McCain saying something like ... We need to cut taxes on the rich ..... it would be running on a 247 loop.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 165): Now that Obama's socialist leanings are becoming more and more apparent, I am wondering how much TV coverage it is getting. I haven't had the time to watch much TV lately, but I did see Obama's exchange with the Plumber the other day. Is the press ignoring that enlightening little episode?

Oh yeah, it's completely buried in the mainstream media. Neil Cavuto had the guy on his show yesterday and he (the plumber) was just devastating in his comments. He wants to fully purchase the plumbing company and add trucks and plumbers but based on Sen. Obama's published tax plan the math is now against him. Sen. Obama's statement that he wants to "spread the wealth around" shoud be in Sen. McCains campaign commercials from here to the end.

Powell endorses Obama for president

Quote: WASHINGTON - Former Secretary of State Colin Powell endorsed Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., for president on Sunday, criticizing his own Republican Party for what he called its narrow focus on irrelevant personal attacks over a serious approach to challenges he called unprecedented.

The direction the Republican party has been heading has turned many moderates away, I would be one of them. I voted for Dole in '96 and Bush in 2000, however I no longer relate with any ideals of the Republican part except strong National Defense budget.

Quote: But he said McCain’s choices in the last few weeks — especially his selection of Gov. Sarah Palin of Alaska as his vice presidential running mate — had raised questions in his mind about McCain’s judgment.

This is exactly the point where McCain should look if he looses the Election, for someone who constantly boasts that he puts his Country "First" this was not a Country first decision. Governor Palin is not capable of being President, She has given no evidence that anyone should have anything but grave concerns of her being next in line to the most powerful and influential Political position in the World. She gives no confidence to anyone that she can address either our Domestic challenges vis a vis our Economy nor our Foreign policy.

She gave McCain a bump and a big morale boost right after the election, but that was only for the base of the conservative movement who always put their own agenda first before the benefit of the Country. She is now a huge liability to the McCain campaign.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27265369/

I have so much admiration for General Powell, he represents my beliefs more than any Politician. And this quote from General Powell sums up my feelings of Governor Palin,

Quote: "Not just small towns have values," he said, responding to one of Palin's signature lines.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20081019/pl_politico/14714

I posted this in the other forum but it rightfully belongs here.

I listened to Colin Powells statement.

1. They are both United States Senators. The appropriate salutation is "Senator" not "Mister".

2. I would have liked to have heard a further explanation of what Sen. Obama did or even said during the early part of the financial crisis that would rate the high praise that Colin Powell heaped on him? I heard several references to "looks and sounds". If we are now voting on a President based on "looks and sounds" then we are truly in deep trouble as a nation. Colin Powell was wrong in 1991 when he advised President Bush (41) to stop. He was wrong in 2002 if he was in any way unconvinced of, and did not challenge, any of the evidence he presented to the United Nations. And he is wrong now.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 169): 1. They are both United States Senators. The appropriate salutation is "Senator" not "Mister".

Not sure if that's even an issue, RJ. To be honest, most members of the Senate don't deserve the title in the first place, but that's another issue. I would salute McCain as Senator myself but the fact that Powell didn't doesn't distract from his influence. He his a highly educated and experienced man, I would listen more to the content of what he says than how he says it.

Having said that,

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 169): I would have liked to have heard a further explanation of what Sen. Obama did or even said during the early part of the financial crisis that would rate the high praise that Colin Powell heaped on him? I heard several references to "looks and sounds". If we are now voting on a President based on "looks and sounds" then we are truly in deep trouble as a nation.

This is my biggest issue with Obama. I usually prefer socialist ideals over outright capitalist ones (although a compromise in reality works better), and Obama's platform is more in line with my way of thinking. However I am still not convinced that Obama is fit to be President, and most of his supporters typically can't present good evidence suggesting that he is. His experience is indeed limited and a world tour does not make him an overnight foreign policy expert. He does have a far more experienced VP than McCain, though Biden sends chills up my spine in the way he sounds like a true politician (i.e., a lot of bluff but not enough substance).

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 169): Colin Powell was wrong in 1991 when he advised President Bush (41) to stop. He was wrong in 2002 if he was in any way unconvinced of, and did not challenge, any of the evidence he presented to the United Nations. And he is wrong now.

Here I have some issues. I believe that he was right to stop Bush '41; our mandate was to liberate Kuwait, nothing more. Had we tried to go further and topple Saddam the coalition we had then would have dismembered rather quickly and all of the issues we are facing with Iraq right now would have surfaced back then as well. As for the intel he presented at the UN prior to the Iraq invasion I do agree that if he had his doubts (which a lot of folks speculate he did) then he should have been more vocal. As a former Military officer myself I have been trained in doing the right thing even if that goes against the wished of your commanders, and this was a clear case in which he acted based not on what he felt but on the pressure coming from above. Still, I respect the man a lot and it says volumes that he decided not to support McCain.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 168): This is exactly the point where McCain should look if he looses the Election

Bingo! The GOP is trying to downplay it but the selection of Palin as the VP choice has done a lot more harm to McCain's ticket than good. I don't care much for Sen Obama but Gov Palin's selection as the VP for the GOP has given me a lot more reasons to vote against the McCain ticket. My biggest issue with her is the lack of experience, particularly in foreign affairs. Obama does lack a lot of experience as well, mind you, and he is running for the top job, but a VP should be experienced enough to be able to fill in the shoes and therefore needs to be scrutinized as closely as the Pres candidate. The one other thing that scares me like crap about Palin is the fact that she didn't see a need for a passport until last year, and then only to visit her deployed troops (which I commend her for). That's just not right, to be competing for the Executive branch and not even care enough for foreign countries to want to visit them and learn about them is flat out unacceptable, as was her excuse that she didn't have a "rich" dad to fly her about. BS!!!! My dad is a poor Vietnam vet and I managed to go abroad on my own. You are absolutely right, McCain can loose the election because of her.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 170): I would listen more to the content of what he says than how he says it.

Of course but it is a matter of respect deserved and earned. I'm sure that when he was in the service he expected to be referred to as "General" once he obtained the rank as well as "Mr. Secretary" when he was Secretary of State. To not do so to two duly elected United States Senators is a sign of disrespect. Maybe we can infer his real feelings about both men in that small tidbit?

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 170): Still, I respect the man a lot and it says volumes that he decided not to support McCain.

So late in the game? The issue is all but decided. Coming on board now smacks of a fair weather fan if you ask me.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 170): The GOP is trying to downplay it but the selection of Palin as the VP choice has done a lot more harm to McCain's ticket than good.

I disagree. McCains numbers and support among GOP voters were lackluster until he named Palin as VP. Let's not forget the press got its shorts all in a knot simply because they were not "informed" of his decision beforehand. They had no chance to warm up to her and when they don't get what they want, they just get nasty. If any mistake was made by the McCain campaign staff, and there have been plenty, it was not to turn her loose from day one. Hiding her for a month just allowed the press and left wing loonies to put out one piece of propaganda after another with no response. She lost her luster there, not in anything she did on stage. Even given her lack of experience, I still think she is more ready to be the VP than Sen. Obama is to be President.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 170): That's just not right, to be competing for the Executive branch and not even care enough for foreign countries to want to visit them and learn about them is flat out unacceptable,

Then you had better take a second look at your pick. Where's he been prior to becoming a United States Senator and when? London and Kenya? Bali? Not leaving the United States is hardly unique even in this day and age.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 169): 1. They are both United States Senators. The appropriate salutation is "Senator" not "Mister".

He's a Four Star General, if he wants to call these guys by their names it's more appropriate and more polite than Senator call calling Senator Obama "that one".

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 169): Colin Powell was wrong in 1991 when he advised President Bush (41) to stop.

Have you seen this interview with Dick Cheney from 1994, he explains why they did not topple Saddam when they had the chance in 1991. It's facinating because almost everything he states as reasons why they didn't do it in 1991 occured with operation Iraqi freedom some 12 years later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csKkdKlLUTc

The part that pisses me off is where he says they decided that Saddam was not worth more than the 146 Americans killed in action to that point in the Gulf War, yet in 2003 he is the driving force in initiating the invasion and overthrow of Saddam which so far has cost up to 4,500 American lives.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 168): She gave McCain a bump and a big morale boost right after the election, but that was only for the base of the conservative movement who always put their own agenda first before the benefit of the Country. She is now a huge liability to the McCain campaign.

People keep saying this but she is drawing huge crowds at her events. 50k at an event
near Orlando a couple of weeks ago. 30K in Richmond last week. She is drawing in much
larger crowds than Biden is. To call her a liability is rediculous. McCain needs as many
Republicans to vote as possible, and she is drawing them to the polls, so how is that a
liablity. Look at the poll numbers: Obama can barely crack the 50% mark. Now take that
and look at Bush's approval rating, the state of the economy, the amount of money Obama
is spending (in some cases 4 to 1 over McCain in some states) and tell me why that is.
He should be capturing support from every Democrat and the majority of Independents, but
he is not. He should be at 58-59% in the polls, but he is not. And to say that if McCain
hadn't picked Palin he'd be better off is demonstrated how again?

Quoting STT757 (Reply 172): He's a Four Star General

In the Washington D.C. food chain the Secretary of State outranks a 4 star general. Regardless it doesn't change the salutation that both men deserve. It does however show a lack of respect for both of them on Mr. Powells part which is interesting in itself.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 171): To not do so to two duly elected United States Senators is a sign of disrespect.

Fair enough. I still see it as if he didn't mean anything by it and that it just was a lapse of memory, however if he keeps doing it (calling Obama Senator while calling McCain Mister) then your point will be valid. He should know better than that.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 171): Coming on board now smacks of a fair weather fan if you ask me.

Perhaps, but I'm sensing he was having trouble with the decision himself. He may be endorsing Obama, but I don't think he turned Democrat overnight. It's one of those decisions for which I wish I could get the straight answer from the person...

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 171): I disagree. McCains numbers and support among GOP voters were lackluster until he named Palin as VP.

Well, you touched on the point that I was making. Palin appeals to the GOP core but not to independents like myself. Maybe I'm too simplistic but if you are a moderate-right and your opponent is a far-left I don't think you have to worry about your core (far-right) switching sides. They may be disappointed in you (though he won the GOP primaries with a comfortable lead) but that doesn't mean they'll switch to Obama. Heck, I don't even like Obama...which leads me to this:

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 171): Then you had better take a second look at your pick. Where's he been prior to becoming a United States Senator and when? London and Kenya? Bali? Not leaving the United States is hardly unique even in this day and age.

Well, first of all he's not my pick, and I have made that very clear in here several times. I'm a registered independent and while my stance is center-left that doesn't mean that I'll give him my vote automatically. He has a loooong way to go to convince me that he's anywhere near fit to be President. And you're right on your attack, he lacks foreign policy experience as much as Palin does (I know he had that 10-day world tour but that hardly counts).

Now where I make the comment about having a passport and leaving the US is not just for foreign policy experience, I see as an indicator of a well rounded person. I know many people here in the US never leave the country, but that's beyond the point. From my point of view a candidate who never even had the slightest interest of going abroad, never the less obtaining a passport, indicates to me that this person is narrow minded and not fit to be a true ambassador on behalf of the US. Think about it rationally, you are voting for someone who, as a VP (and possibly the President) will have to engage with foreign nations as part of his/her role. It's part of the job, of the Executive branch, and not showing interest in anything beyond our borders just tells me that this person couldn't be bothered with trying to learn about other cultures or try to understand the rest of the world. That's fine if you are running for governor or senator but for the executive office is unacceptable. I mean look at Cheney, how many times has he been abroad in the last 8 years? Quite a few. Again, it's part of the job, and for me she failed that part of the job interview.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 175): They may be disappointed in you (though he won the GOP primaries with a comfortable lead) but that doesn't mean they'll switch to Obama.

That's correct but as they have shown in the past, the true conservative christian right is willing to sit on their hands and not vote thus taking the defeat on principle than vote for someone they do not believe shares their views. In doing that they don't vote for Sen. Obama but still hand him the election. Sen. McCains pick was made to get them to go to the polls which it was not clear that they would do absent a conservative pick for VP. Had he picked Romney or Huckabee either one would have probably been just as distasteful to the "middle" as Palin. At least with Palin everyone can agree she is new to the scene and thus, absent the left wing propaganda and media gotcha interviews, does not bring the baggage from the primaries that the two former people did. One of the big mistakes that the McCain campaign staff has made is not to bring forward every disagreement that Sen. Biden had with Sen. Obama during the primaries which the press would have surely done had Sen. McCain picked one of the two formers. Again, I think it was a huge mistake not to turn her loose immediately. She has shown that she can speak and hold her own. She is not absent flubs but compared to those of her opponent, Sen. Biden, they are pretty minor.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 175): I'm a registered independent and while my stance is center-left that doesn't mean that I'll give him my vote automatically.

I stand corrected, my apologies.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 176): One of the big mistakes that the McCain campaign staff has made is not to bring forward every disagreement that Sen. Biden had with Sen. Obama during the primaries which the press would have surely done had Sen. McCain picked one of the two formers.

It's absolutely baffling that they did not do this - all conservative action groups, pundits, and commentators have the same opinion about it: Dumb dumb and dumber. They got so caught up in the Palin bounce-then-fall that they forgot about the other guy.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 176): That's correct but as they have shown in the past, the true conservative christian right is willing to sit on their hands and not vote thus taking the defeat on principle than vote for someone they do not believe shares their views. In doing that they don't vote for Sen. Obama but still hand him the election

Ok you got a point there, I guess I didn't look at it from a campaign strategist point of view, only as a voter.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 176): Again, I think it was a huge mistake not to turn her loose immediately. She has shown that she can speak and hold her own. She is not absent flubs but compared to those of her opponent, Sen. Biden, they are pretty minor.

  

I have to agree with that, by restricting her interviews they lost precious time in letting her connect with the public, and she does have charisma. Even though I don't agree with many things that she stands for (like abortion, restricted same sex education, and the somewhat religious overtone of her campaign) she connects far better than Biden could ever dream of. Listening to Biden is painful, it's like reading the small print of a contract written in such a way that only a lawyer can understand but in the end can screw you.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 177): It's absolutely baffling that they did not do this - all conservative action groups, pundits, and commentators have the same opinion about it: Dumb dumb and dumber. They got so caught up in the Palin bounce-then-fall that they forgot about the other guy.

It's unbelievable to say the least how easy the media has let Obama off the hook, and it's something that was even more evident when he was fending off Hillary. The media lost no opportunity in ripping Hillary apart for her mistakes but literally handed Obama the candidacy in a platter. I see the same pattern here, and the right wing groups who usually try to call it out are asleep. Obama is a not a baby, he can sure take harder and more profound questions. Make him earn his votes!

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 176): I stand corrected, my apologies.

No problem!

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 178): It's unbelievable to say the least how easy the media has let Obama off the hook, and it's something that was even more evident when he was fending off Hillary.

  

Here is an excellent article:

http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/081017light.html


Would the Last Honest Reporter Please Turn On the Lights?
By Orson Scott Card

Editor's note: Orson Scott Card is a Democrat and a newspaper columnist, and in this opinion piece he takes on both while lamenting the current state of journalism.

An open letter to the local daily paper — almost every local daily paper in America:

I remember reading All the President's Men and thinking: That's journalism. You do what it takes to get the truth and you lay it before the public, because the public has a right to know.

This housing crisis didn't come out of nowhere.

...

P.S.

This picture was apparently taken at Hayes and Octavia in San Francisco on Sunday.



  

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 180): This picture was apparently taken at Hayes and Octavia in San Francisco on Sunday.

That's just as disgusting as the people who deified Bush. Eww.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 181): That's just as disgusting as the people who deified Bush. Eww.

True. Neither side can claim higher moral ground in here, there are still plenty of Bush fans who claim that he has not erred at all in 8 years at the WH, and Clinton fans who conveniently forget about his pardons during the last hours of his presidency. We need to hold these fools accountable to a higher standard, not portray them as the Messiah.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 179): Here is an excellent article: http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/081017light.html

You're using as a source, something that was published in the Rhinoceros Times, a far right throw away rag, whom has a problem dealing with fact or fiction in some of their stories, at least according to some of the folks in North Carolina.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 183): You're using as a source, something that was published in the Rhinoceros Times, a far right throw away rag, whom has a problem dealing with fact or fiction in some of their stories, at least according to some of the folks in North Carolina.

So what? I think the article is excellent and very factual. It is an opinion piece, and I think your elitism is showing if you say that anyone not from the New York Times is not worthy of having their opinions published.

If you have an issue with his piece, please explain where and why.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 184): So what? I think the article is excellent and very factual. It is an opinion piece, and I think your elitism is showing if you say that anyone not from the New York Times is not worthy of having their opinions published.

So is RJdxer an elitist too? Yesterday he said I lost credibility for posting an article (a factual one) from the Huffington Post.

Does it work both ways? Neither way? What are the rules here?

[

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 170): Bingo! The GOP is trying to downplay it but the selection of Palin as the VP choice has done a lot more harm to McCain's ticket than good.

How ?, she has not hurt McCain one bit ..... Making the other side nervous though.... and thats good

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 184): If you have an issue with his piece, please explain where and why.

The Article is spot on ... case closed

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 185): So is RJdxer an elitist too? Yesterday he said I lost credibility for posting an article (a factual one) from the Huffington Post.

I have not seen the article you mention, so I can't judge whether it was factual or not. While much of the Huff Post is garbage, sometimes they do get it right, so you can't lay out generalist rules like that.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 186): How ?, she has not hurt McCain one bit ..... Making the other side nervous though.... and thats good

I don't think they're very nervous at this point. They were at first and then as soon as they figured out who she was, they calmed down and kicked some butt. Election Day is in two weeks. I voted already.

http://news.yahoo.com/election/2008/dashboard

Now, we all that it ain't over until the fat lady sings, but McCain's got a hell of a lot to pull out of if he still wants to win this. I think even he's seen the writing on the wall.

What we're looking at at this point is a lot more than a landslide. I predict an avalanche.

The GOP is quite nervous. VERY nervous.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 185): Does it work both ways? Neither way? What are the rules here?

Nope, works both ways. I agree that the author of the article is dubious at best. He is known for his works of science fiction so this is nothing more than a readers op ed piece. The Huffington Post piece was by a staff reporter, Sam Stein which means that the story was run by a Huffington Post editor before being published.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 183): You're using as a source, something that was published in the Rhinoceros Times

Just because it was published there does not automatically discount it. If they published an AP report that said Sen. Obama was ahead in the polls would you still discount it? As stated above, the piece published was by a person primarily known as a sci fi writer. Yes he has a weekly column but it is not syndicated and it is definitely one sided opinion. Much different than a reporter presenting a supposedly "balanced" piece in a syndicated news service.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 180): This picture was apparently taken at Hayes and Octavia in San Francisco on Sunday.

I want to throw up. Then again, that picture is still better than other horrors one can usually find at Hayes and Octavia!

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 182): there are still plenty of Bush fans who claim that he has not erred at all in 8 years at the WH

Those people are nothing less than certifiable.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 186): How ?, she has not hurt McCain one bit

I completely disagree. I think for most independent voters she has been a nail in the coffin for McCain. People looking for more from the Republican party want it to return to a baseline platform of fiscal responsibility, personal accountability, and small government. Her fundie nonsense lends itself to more support from the fringe groups that have put a stranglehold on party fundraising and grassroots support for the last decade, which is completely OPPOSITE to the direction the party needs to move to regain its footing. Obviously it was a calculated choice by the McCain campaign that felt they were going to lose those votes, but they choose poorly, since there's more independents in this election than churchgoers who were planning to sit out.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 186): How ?, she has not hurt McCain one bit

That may depend on who you ask...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27297013/

Now, Palin’s qualifications to be president rank as voters’ top concern about McCain’s candidacy - ahead of continuing President Bush’s policies, enacting economic policies that only benefit the rich and keeping too high of a troop presence in Iraq.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 172): The part that pisses me off is where he says they decided that Saddam was not worth more than the 146 Americans killed in action to that point in the Gulf War, yet in 2003 he is the driving force in initiating the invasion and overthrow of Saddam which so far has cost up to 4,500 American lives.

Let us not forget the tens, if not hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#Iraqi_deaths

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 190): Now, Palin’s qualifications to be president rank as voters’ top concern about McCain’s candidacy - ahead of continuing President Bush’s policies, enacting economic policies that only benefit the rich and keeping too high of a troop presence in Iraq.

Funny thing is Palin has more time "behind the wheel", aka experience, than Obama does. She has a history more broad than Obama could hope to muster. Yet all attention is on attempting to destroy this titanium female from the northern frontier. Amusingly, all attempts so far have simply bounced harmlessly away. A lesser woman would have crumbled under the pressure....hell Bush would crumble under the same scrutiny afforded Palin by the media.

Her resilience aggravates you, and worries you at the same time. If she were a liability to McCain (as liberals like to parrot), the democrats would have turned resources away from Palin a long time ago.

According to liberal conventional wisdom - Palin is the only credible threat left on the republican ticket.

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 193): Amusingly, all attempts so far have simply bounced harmlessly away.

May I suggest that it probably depends on your definition of "bouncing harmlessly away"? Hasn't the Republican ticket taken a substantial dive in the polls over the past month?

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 193): If she were a liability to McCain (as liberals like to parrot)

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 193): According to liberal conventional wisdom - Palin is the only credible threat left on the republican ticket.

Aren't your two statements a little bit contradictory?

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 170): His experience is indeed limited and a world tour does not make him an overnight foreign policy expert.

I agree with you 100%.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 194): May I suggest that it probably depends on your definition of "bouncing harmlessly away"? Hasn't the Republican ticket taken a substantial dive in the polls over the past month?

There is this other guy, named John, on the ticket. He bombed 2 debates and made a good stab at a third, and the economy experienced a steep drop in the course of a week. Using proper analysis....the odds are that Palin is the whole reason McCain is where the pair are right now.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 194): Aren't your two statements a little bit contradictory?

No.






(The first statement is an "if", If she were a liability to McCain (as liberals like to parrot)....it's hypothetical....she is certainly not a liability in reality (as verified by the second statement).

Not at all contradictory.

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 193): Her resilience aggravates you, and worries you at the same time. If she were a liability to McCain (as liberals like to parrot), the democrats would have turned resources away from Palin a long time ago. According to liberal conventional wisdom - Palin is the only credible threat left on the republican ticket.

It's really hard to know how to respond to you when you are clearly not receptive to logical argument or sane reasoning.  

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 191): I completely disagree. I think for most independent voters she has been a nail in the coffin for McCain. People looking for more from the Republican party want it to return to a baseline platform of fiscal responsibility, personal accountability, and small government. Her fundie nonsense lends itself to more support from the fringe groups that have put a stranglehold on party fundraising and grassroots support for the last decade, which is completely OPPOSITE to the direction the party needs to move to regain its footing. Obviously it was a calculated choice by the McCain campaign that felt they were going to lose those votes, but they choose poorly, since there's more independents in this election than churchgoers who were planning to sit out.

  

Your points here are an excellent summation of the Palin effect, well said.

RUL

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 191): People looking for more from the Republican party want it to return to a baseline platform of fiscal responsibility, personal accountability, and small government.

That is exactly what she stands for.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 191): Her fundie nonsense lends itself to more support from the fringe groups

Her religious views have never translated into policy, so should be a non-issue.

I ask you to use the same standards (ignore the candidate's actual record in office, and concentrate on what their church says and other outside influences) on Obama, and tell me why you would vote for him? Actually, you already do ignore his track record. Anyone who actually believes he will lower taxes on anyone is smoking dope. He never has done it before.

O's agenda is so 'gay' - according to Matt Barber

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=78739

What are we to make of this? A hat? A broach?