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Dreadnought
Posts: 10201
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:40 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 299):
So you hold Obama responsible for what everyone else says about him

Obama himself made one of the worst attacks, and he has never reudiated the others AFAIK, so yes.

Quoting Solarix (Reply 298):
Why did Obama (during the debates) say tax breaks for everyone that makes less than $250,000, but tonight he said tax breaks for people making less than $200,000?

And Biden the other day said $150,000. Signs of things to come.
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:57 pm



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 292):
Would you say that Hillary lost the nomination because she's a woman?

Nope, I would say Hillary lost the nomination because she too ran a hideous campaign. Her problem was in thinking she had it sewn up before it actually began. She too discounted Sen. Obama for possibly the same reasons I listed. Junior Senator, no experience, no name recognition. It had little to do with her being a woman.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 292):
As a side topic anyone else catch the Hollywood-esque Obama ad that ran for 30 mins?

I saw bits and pieces. I had to laugh at the family that had trouble providing snack food for their kids! Or shaking my head in amazement at the woman who failed to prepare for her medication costs in retirement when she knew well in advance what they would cost and what she would need. I'm sorry but those two examples reek of the "Ask what your government can do for you" times we live in now.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 296):
That's pretty weak sauce you're serving.

Wow, I'm overwhelmed by the detail in that answer.

Now this is taking care of your beloved relatives! I can't wait to see what he does for the rest of us who aren't even family!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...as/us_elections/article5042571.ece
 
AirCop
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:08 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 288):
If Sen. Obama were the white junior Senator from Illinois do you think he would have gotten the keynote speech at the 2004 Democratic National Convention?

Obama was not a US Senator from Illinois when he gave the speech at the 2004 DNC.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 301):
I saw bits and pieces. I had to laugh at the family that had trouble providing snack food for their kids! Or shaking my head in amazement at the woman who failed to prepare for her medication costs in retirement when she knew well in advance what they would cost and what she would need. I'm sorry but those two examples reek of the "Ask what your government can do for you" times we live in now.

And how would expect her to prepare for the her medication? Do you know for a fact that she was taking all these meds before her husband retired? Of course not, just another simpleton answer. I'm sure you getting putting money aside, to take of your meds for an illness that might come up after you retire..Do you realize how much more profitable/competitive American business could be, if the US had a single payer medical system like the other advanced countries.
 
RJdxer
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:09 pm



Quoting AirCop (Reply 302):
And how would expect her to prepare for the her medication?

By saving money for it or working to find a suplemental program. Her husband worked for the railroad, that is a good paying job even if you are a janitor. According to her she has had rheumatoid arthritis for years.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 302):
Do you know for a fact that she was taking all these meds before her husband retired?

She said she was taking 12 when her husband worked for the railroad and that she is taking 12 now.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 302):
Of course not, just another simpleton answer.

Yet another example of the love the Obama supporters spout. Nothing negative here, move along. Obviously you didn't even watch or look at any part of the program.
 
AirCop
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:00 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 303):
Obviously you didn't even watch or look at any part of the program.

Actually, I watched the whole program when it came on at 5pm our time (cable)..It's funny that Obama was pointing out serious issues that effect the working people of this country, and what has McCain offered...Nothing.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 303):
She said she was taking 12 when her husband worked for the railroad and that she is taking 12 now.

And since he is over 65 he is on Medicare, and Medicare Part D doesn't come close to meeting the needs of seniors with her health conditions...72 years of age working at Wal-Mart as a sales associate, what has this country come to?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 303):
By saving money for it or working to find a suplemental program

 spin   spin   spin  Easier said that done.
 
RJdxer
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:44 am



Quoting AirCop (Reply 304):
Obama was pointing out serious issues that effect the working people of this country,

By pointing to two examples of individuals wanting something they don't need and needing something they should have taken care of long ago. Very fine examples.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 304):
And since he is over 65 he is on Medicare, and Medicare Part D doesn't come close to meeting the needs of seniors with her health conditions...72 years of age working at Wal-Mart as a sales associate, what has this country come to?

It has come to, in this point, two people who did not prepare for their future. If the arthritis had come on after they retired then that would be a different story. They had full knowledge of her condidtion and evidently did not spend enough time or save enough resources to deal with it.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 304):
Easier said that done.

I'm not depending on my employer or the government to take care of me in my retirement years. My Dad never did and taught me not to either. What you saw there was a fine example of folks that don't have an ounce of self discipline. The parts of the program I saw were nothing but a portrait of a country that is doom and gloom. It's the only way democrats can get elected, paint a picture of doom and gloom and then tell them that the government is the one and only answer to all their problems. That some fat cat has taken what is rightfully theirs and that if elected they will get it back for them. Class eny, class warfare, socialism, and a giant nanny state is all they have to offer.
 
RJdxer
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:52 am

Of course those supporting Sen. Obama would never resort to dirty tricks or intimidation.

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content...ries/2008/10/29/joe30.html?sid=101
 
RJdxer
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:03 am



Quoting AirCop (Reply 304):
Actually, I watched the whole program when it came on at 5pm our time (cable)..It's funny that Obama was pointing out serious issues that effect the working people of this country, and what has McCain offered...Nothing.

I guess Sen. Obama offered up more of the same. A bunch of nothing.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D944H6EO0&show_article=1
 
AirCop
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:57 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 305):
What you saw there was a fine example of folks that don't have an ounce of self discipline.

Let see, we had a Ford worker that had his hours cut in half due to no fault of his; a retired couple that raised six children and put them through college, and a single mother that works as a teacher and another job to make ends meet. - Yep that sounds like folks that don't have an ounce of self-discipline, considering in each case each couple was doing something to make their extend their budget.  faint   stretch 
Here to hoping you and your family may never have a serious illness that rips your finances apart.
 
Charles79
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:19 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 305):
I'm not depending on my employer or the government to take care of me in my retirement years. My Dad never did and taught me not to either. What you saw there was a fine example of folks that don't have an ounce of self discipline. The parts of the program I saw were nothing but a portrait of a country that is doom and gloom. It's the only way democrats can get elected, paint a picture of doom and gloom and then tell them that the government is the one and only answer to all their problems. That some fat cat has taken what is rightfully theirs and that if elected they will get it back for them. Class eny, class warfare, socialism, and a giant nanny state is all they have to offer.

RJ, I guess here is where we both differ in ideology and why I have ultimately decided not to support the Republican ticket this year. It's the noble and right thing to do to be self-sufficient, to depend only on yourself, and to expect nothing from the government. However, there are millions, yes, millions of Americans who made all the right choices, had discipline, and worked hard and still found themselves in hardship. You cannot plan for everything, and for those times when you need the most help I expect my government, which I support when I'm in health, to come and help them. Yes, I'm a socialist, and for a good reason: if we don't take care of our own no one will, and if we adopt the attitude of everyone for themselves then we are not using to our advantage the intellect and wisdom that separates from the rest of the animal kingdom. We have tried for many, many years the model where the rich (and their friends) enjoy prosperity while the rest succumbs into debts, higher costs of living, and a much lower quality of life. Yeah, many of the wounds are self-inflicted, and many people did try to live beyond their means and exercised no self-control. But the number of folks who played by the rules and still got burned is growing exponentially and they want a change. Only one candidate is really promising it, and while I think he'll fall way short of achieving it for most it's a risk worth taking rather than continue with the same model...for another 4 years.

It's interesting, if we shouldn't use the government to help those who followed the rules but still ended up upside down then why is our "conservative" administration spending so much of our money bailing out financial institutions which bended the rules due to greed, to the point that now they are even talking about "saving" the car companies. We subsidize heavily the private defense industry, fattening their bottom lines with needless military programs which burn billions of dollars for decades yet can't provide for decent schools or care for the elderly who gave their entire lives to the nation. Again, the masses are asking for a change, and they'll follow whoever offers it to them. Sometimes in order to get ahead you have to try something new...
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:57 am



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 309):
Yeah, many of the wounds are self-inflicted, and many people did try to live beyond their means and exercised no self-control.

Since socialism reduces the material penalty for failure (whether by lack of luck, motivation or whatever), how would socialism not simply cause people to take more risk with their lives, by living beyond their ability to earn, for instance? And if you have to give up 60-70% of your income (after state, payroll tax etc), how many of our best workers will decide not to work so hard - that the cost/benefit analysis simply doesn't justify working 80 hours a week - which is what most entrepreneurs put in, if not more?

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 309):
But the number of folks who played by the rules and still got burned is growing exponentially and they want a change.

Our country is based on "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". It did not say, "Life, liberty, and happiness". Material happiness is not guaranteed - never has been, ever, anywhere. All that is guaranteed is that the state should not get in your way. Instead of trying to pretend that the issue can be forced without penalty in jobs and the overall, it would be more sensible to see how to expand the economy.
 
WunalaYann
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:16 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 310):
And if you have to give up 60-70% of your income (after state, payroll tax etc), how many of our best workers will decide not to work so hard - that the cost/benefit analysis simply doesn't justify working 80 hours a week - which is what most entrepreneurs put in, if not more?

If you look at regions like Scandinavia, and to a lesser extent Germany, Canada, Japan and the Benelux, higher taxes on labour do not prevent prosperity. And neither do higher levels of redistribution. A look at Forbes' rankings of the world's most competitive cities and countries will show that a few of these places are sitting pretty at the top.

I am not advocating higher or lower redistribution, I am merely pointing to facts that invalidate dogma. Whether it is market fundamentalism dogma or actual socialist dogma makes no difference. It is still dogma and therefore is certain to overlook some of the advantages of different systems, and the benefits a community would reap from pragmatic doses of each.

I believe freedom of enterprise is vital for a nation to prosper. But I also think that freedom of enterprise will always be hampered by poor healthcare, education, environmental policies and infrastructure. Needs that unfortunately cannot always be covered by private business because they are not financially profitable, at least in the short term. They are however almost systematically economically profitable, or at least less penalising than the "do nothing" path.

Just my $0.02.  Smile
 
PSA727
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:03 am



Quoting AirCop (Reply 308):
Let see, we had a Ford worker that had his hours cut in half due to no fault of his; a retired couple that raised six children and put them through college, and a single mother that works as a teacher and another job to make ends meet. - Yep that sounds like folks that don't have an ounce of self-discipline, considering in each case each couple

Sounds like that's kind of a result of Ford's decision to focus more on producing SUVs
instead of more cars like their Focus model. But what is Obama going to do to bring his
job back? Have the government take control of Ford, or just give them a check instead?
 
Charles79
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:13 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 310):
Our country is based on "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". It did not say, "Life, liberty, and happiness". Material happiness is not guaranteed - never has been, ever, anywhere.

Why is it that in this country quality of life is always equated to material possessions and money? What our country is clamoring for is quality of life and life happiness, far beyond just simply "material happiness"! Many Americans are deep in debt from medical bills, millions don't have their health cause they can't afford the treatment, millions don't have access to decent education, thousands have to work 2 or more jobs just to survive. The current system we have doesn't work anymore, and it must evolve. We need better health care, better schools, a cleaner environment, better public transportation, more time to spend at home than at work. As individuals we can achieve some of these but for other items we need a central government to work. Didn't our founders designed a government for the people? Let's use it then!

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 310):
All that is guaranteed is that the state should not get in your way.

We are not asking for the state to get in the way, we ask the state to pave our way and give us the tools to get the job done. It's our government, made from us, to work for us. If anything, in recent history it has been the "conservative" government trying to get in the way of our pursuit of happiness with their opposition to human rights, freedom of choice, gay marriage, etc.



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 310):
it would be more sensible to see how to expand the economy.

You cannot separate the people from the economy. You can pour all the money in the world into the economy but if you don't take care of the people it will all be in vain. We had a very good saying in the military: "take care of the people and they'll take care of the mission".

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 310):
And if you have to give up 60-70% of your income (after state, payroll tax etc), how many of our best workers will decide not to work so hard - that the cost/benefit analysis simply doesn't justify working 80 hours a week - which is what most entrepreneurs put in, if not more?

Where did you get that number from, 60-70% of your income? And why is socialism going to kill the entrepreneur spirit? There are several successful social democracies and guess what, there's quite a lot of innovation going on in those countries. A socialist democratic system doesn't remove the element of individual responsibility or destroys the individual ambition. What it does is ensure the fair share of resources so that the most citizens can enjoy a high quality of life while the achievers still get rewarded for their hard work. Under our current system the element of human greed often goes unchecked and we have ended up with a quality of life that continues to degrade.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:26 am



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 309):
We have tried for many, many years the model where the rich (and their friends) enjoy prosperity while the rest succumbs into debts, higher costs of living, and a much lower quality of life.

Hence, the beliefs set firmly in place by one of McCain's stated heroes, Teddy Roosevelt:

"At many stages in the advance of humanity, this conflict between the men who possess more than they have earned and the men who have earned more than they possess is the central condition of progress. In our day it appears as the struggle of freemen to gain and hold the right of self-government as against the special interests, who twist the methods of free government into machinery for defeating the popular will. At every stage, and under all circumstances, the essence of the struggle is to equalize opportunity, destroy privilege, and give to the life and citizenship of every individual the highest possible value both to himself and to the commonwealth......

"No man should receive a dollar unless that dollar has been fairly earned. Every dollar received should represent a dollar's worth of service rendered, not gambling in stocks, but service rendered. The really big fortune, the swollen fortune, by the mere fact of its size, acquires qualities which differentiate it in kind as well as in degree from what is possessed by men of relatively small means. Therefore, I believe in a graduated income tax on big fortunes, and in another tax which is far more easily collected and far more effective, a graduated inheritance tax on big fortunes, properly safeguarded against evasion, and increasing rapidly in amount with the size of the estate."


Still holds true today, except I think Teddy would be disgusted by the size of the IRS and the vast cottage industry that grew up around its bloated infrastructure and requirements.
 
RJdxer
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:43 am



Quoting AirCop (Reply 308):
Let see, we had a Ford worker that had his hours cut in half due to no fault of his

Gosh, I've had all my hours cut, several times as a matter of fact, and I've never asked for or recieved a single unemployment check. Fancy that.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 308):
a retired couple that raised six children and put them through college,

Who knew about an illness that would affect their retirement and did what about it? And how about those six kids, where are they now? Wonder if they ever heard the line that "Charity starts at home"?

Quoting AirCop (Reply 308):
and a single mother that works as a teacher and another job to make ends meet. -

And was complaining about not being able to buy enough snack food for her family. Yet we are supposed to worry about starving children in Africa?

Quoting AirCop (Reply 308):
Yep that sounds like folks that don't have an ounce of self-discipline, considering in each case each couple was doing something to make their extend their budget.

Yet still looking to government for a handout.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 308):
Here to hoping you and your family may never have a serious illness that rips your finances apart.

I would be less worried about my finances than I would about the family member who was sick. If you plan properly the financial part is doable. Evidently your plan sucks.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 309):
You cannot plan for everything, and for those times when you need the most help I expect my government, which I support when I'm in health, to come and help them

I expect my family, then my wife's church, then public charities, and finally if the diaster is big enough the government to step in, in that order.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 309):
Yes, I'm a socialist, and for a good reason: if we don't take care of our own no one will

But there is a huge difference between taking carre of those that are in need and taking care of those that have the ability to take care of themselves. That is where our differences lie.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 309):
then why is our "conservative" administration spending so much of our money bailing out financial institutions which bended the rules due to greed

Because this government over several administrations helped get these institutions into this mess. I find it strange that when the savings and loan scandal brewed up in the 80's there was an immediate rush to hold hearings, label scapegoats, and assign blame. When Worldcom and Enron went under there were almost immediate hearings by Congress with perp walks and the like that resulted in some of the most onerous accounting legislation ever passed. Yet their losses were a mere pittance compared to the bail out they just passed and no rush to hold hearings to get to the bottom of what happened. Other than "greedy wall street banks" which as yet go unnamed not one single person or entity has been labeled as a scape goat. Not one hearing has been held. Not one accusation of public infidelity made. Doesn't that strike you as just a bit odd?

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 309):
We subsidize heavily the private defense industry, fattening their bottom lines with needless military programs which burn billions of dollars for decades yet can't provide for decent schools or care for the elderly who gave their entire lives to the nation.

Define "decent". We spend more per pupil than Germany or Japan. How much is enough? When is it time to look at the way they are being taught or what they are being taught instead of how much is being spent? Again, where are these elderly folks families? We took care of my grandmother in her final years. I helped to take care of my mother for 3 years when she had alzheimers and took care of my dad in his final 3 months of life day and night. I left a perfectly good well paying job and uprooted my family to move 500 miles back home to help take care of my mother. I took a leave of absence and put off my schooling as well to take care of my Dad. I was not only proud but happy to do it. It made me sad to know I was going to lose him but I took care of him in his own home as he wished for over 3 months. So don't try and tell me the govenment should be taking care of these people unless they have no family to take care of them. Don't tell me we need to provide better schools when the left will not allow a family in a poor school district the means to send that child to a better one nor demand that the teachers in the poor one prove that they are up to the task of teaching. This country has lost the thing that made it great, individual drive and responsibility as well as the family as a unit. The situation is bad and not getting any better. Sen. Obama's proposed policies do nothing to reverse that trend and as matter of fact only do more to exacerbate it. He can't take care of his own extended family so why should we expect anything different.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:00 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 315):
Other than "greedy wall street banks" which as yet go unnamed not one single person or entity has been labeled as a scape goat. Not one hearing has been held. Not one accusation of public infidelity made. Doesn't that strike you as just a bit odd?

Very much so - and among the primary reasons I couldn't vote for either of these characters. Both talk of personal accountability and responsibility and the whole yada-yada, but both are clearly too beholden to whatever interest to step up and demand what needs to be done.

We're totally on the same page about onerous regulation and the overextended response to the Enron scandal as well. I blame roughly 75 pages of Sarbanes-Oxley for the deep mistrust between banks the last several months - nobody knows who's got what or where the risk is at.
 
Charles79
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:41 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 315):

But there is a huge difference between taking carre of those that are in need and taking care of those that have the ability to take care of themselves. That is where our differences lie.

Where did I say to take care of the ones who can take care of themselves? I clearly said to provide assistance to those who need it and obviously can't get it for themselves. A socialist system does not take away individual responsibility, period.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 315):
I expect my family, then my wife's church, then public charities, and finally if the diaster is big enough the government to step in, in that order.

And that's great if you have the support from all the above. Many folks don't. Some charities are religious and won't help those they don't agree with or have a hidden agenda to turn them into their parish. Worse, some even discriminate based on race, gender, orientation, even religion.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 315):
Not one accusation of public infidelity made. Doesn't that strike you as just a bit odd?

Strikes me as odd, of course, but then I do not trust the current administration, Congress, and Treasury with strong ties to these big corporations. Both sides are guilty of it.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 315):
So don't try and tell me the govenment should be taking care of these people unless they have no family to take care of them.

Again, where do I propose to take care of those who have the means? Please, do not twist words to accommodate your views.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 315):
Don't tell me we need to provide better schools when the left will not allow a family in a poor school district the means to send that child to a better one nor demand that the teachers in the poor one prove that they are up to the task of teaching.

Who is talking about sides or parties in here? What does the left has to do with anything? I'm discussing ideologies here, not political parties. I have expressed my opposition to both parties, several times. As for kids trying to go to a better school...why not improve the school that they are at right now? As for the teachers, I completely agree, we need to uphold higher standards for them.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 315):

Define "decent". We spend more per pupil than Germany or Japan. How much is enough? When is it time to look at the way they are being taught or what they are being taught instead of how much is being spent?

Obviously what we are doing doesn't work, then. But please call out the party you defend so much as well, they had 8 years to fix the public school system and yet we have many of the same problems we had 8 years ago. I'm not counting on the democrats to fix it either but as a nation we should demand more from these idiots instead of going to lengths to defend them.

And why is it ok to continue to spend so much on useless defense programs? Please, tell me, why do I have to subsidize the Lockheed Martins, Boeings, and Northrop Grummans? I know first hand of the waste going on and the political clout that these companies have keeping them in business. This is one area that is ripe for cuts big time, yet our administration refused to do anything about it.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 315):
Sen. Obama's proposed policies do nothing to reverse that trend and as matter of fact only do more to exacerbate it. He can't take care of his own extended family so why should we expect anything different.

Common, you have to agree that neither candidate is proposing to solve the real problems in this country. Neither candidate has a tax reform that balances the budget, neither wants to talk specifics about cutting spending, neither talks specific about finishing the job in Afghanistan and ending the mess of Iraq. Then you bring Obama's extended family? Let's see: Obama's father left him when he was a kid and had a brother in Kenya or whatever whom Obama barely knows. McCain is on his second wife. Palin advocates no sex education yet her own daughter gets pregnant and by many accounts is being forced to marry the father. None of the candidates really have their personal shit together but what does it have to do with running the country? It's just a distraction from the real issues.
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:39 am

RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:09 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 315):
I've never asked for or recieved a single unemployment check. Fancy that.

Do you want a medal or something?  goldmedal 

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 315):
Evidently your plan sucks.

Actually what do you know about my financial situation?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 315):
expect my family, then my wife's church, then public charities, and finally if the diaster is big enough the government to step in, in that order.

You just don't have a clue. Giving to charities is way down this year, and even in the good times they can't help everyone that needs help. Your wife's church? You're kidding...Perhaps you would be better off having a car wash..

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 317):
Some charities are religious and won't help those they don't agree with or have a hidden agenda to turn them into their parish. Worse, some even discriminate based on race, gender, orientation, even religion.

 checkmark 

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 317):
Please, tell me, why do I have to subsidize the Lockheed Martins, Boeings, and Northrop Grummans? I know first hand of the waste going on and the political clout that these companies have keeping them in business. This is one area that is ripe for cuts big time, yet our administration refused to do anything about it.

Well stated..

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 317):
I clearly said to provide assistance to those who need it and obviously can't get it for themselves. A socialist system does not take away individual responsibility, period.

RJ doesn't seem to get it..If you have medical insurance there is usually a cap on lifetime expenses. If one is unlucky enough to bring a child in this world that has a major medical issue, that cap can be reached quickly, and then you're on your own. No amount of charity from family, friends, churches can keep up with the rising cost of medical care. My last stay in the hospital, in December was over $500,000 for a week...thank goodness for that socialist program known as workers compensation.
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:45 pm



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 317):
A socialist system does not take away individual responsibility, period.

Incorrect. A socialist system seeks to even everyone by making those that excel give more to equalize those who don't.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 317):
Worse, some even discriminate based on race, gender, orientation, even religion.

What is worse about that? A religion holds to standards of faith. They are non government groups of private individuals expressing their Constitutional right of free association and worship. If you don't like what a church espouses, then you don't attend that church which would explain why there are so many different ones with often radically opposing view points. I don't understand your line of reasoning here at all.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 317):
I'm discussing ideologies here, not political parties.

The liberal left is a political ideology. It believes that government is the be all and end all. That the tax system should be used to equalize rich and poor. If you are going to deny that basic then we've lost touch of any common ground.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 317):
But please call out the party you defend so much as well, they had 8 years to fix the public school system and yet we have many of the same problems we had 8 years ago.

You mistake what I think Washington should be doing when it comes to schools. It should be doing nothing more than gathering information on programs that work dissimenating them to everyone. Schools should be a States right issue period. Vouchers should be issued by the State. Standards should be issued and enforced by the State.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 317):
Please, tell me, why do I have to subsidize the Lockheed Martins, Boeings, and Northrop Grummans?

Please tell me who else is going to build that stuff. And like it or not that is stuff we sometimes need.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 317):
I know first hand of the waste going on and the political clout that these companies have keeping them in business.

Yet not a word about Sen. McCain and the tanker deal.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 317):
Common, you have to agree that neither candidate is proposing to solve the real problems in this country.

Which I have said many times. But between the two, Sen. Obama's policies will be far worse in the long term for the nation as a whole.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 318):
Do you want a medal or something?

Nope. But if I did it and I'm not superman, then anybody should be able too.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 318):
Actually what do you know about my financial situation?

That you worry about an illness destroying it.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 318):
Your wife's church?

Yes my wife's church. I don't attend although they seem like a nice enough group of people. They have helped several parishioners that have had problems of one kind or another. It's called charity. It used to be the way things of this nature were taken care of until the government got into health care and the prices went up through the roof.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 318):
RJ doesn't seem to get it..If you have medical insurance there is usually a cap on lifetime expenses.

Which you should know about an be prepared for. But I forgot, we don't expect people to be responsible in this coming land of "change".

Quoting AirCop (Reply 318):
My last stay in the hospital, in December was over $500,000 for a week...thank goodness for that socialist program known as workers compensation.

Which is paid for by capitalist for profit employers. Fancy that.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:53 pm



Quoting AirCop (Reply 318):
My last stay in the hospital, in December was over $500,000 for a week...thank goodness for that socialist program known as workers compensation.

Holy heck. Interesting thing is that with our socialised medical system, it would be difficult to get a stay for $500K for a week regardless of how serious it was, wonder what that says about the relative efficiencies of socialised and privatised funding systems. But then we have a fair idea of relative costs just from comparing the system costs and either we are getting our health extraordinarily cheaply, or the US system is taking you all for a bit of a ride.

Hope you recovered well AirCop, I think I would have expired just finding out it would have cost half a megabuck!!  bigthumbsup 
 
StuckInCA
Posts: 1661
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:55 pm

RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & P

Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:57 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 319):
A socialist system seeks to even everyone

So... now you're on the right track (unwittingly I'm sure). How, exactly, do you figure that Obama's tax plan is socialist?

Do you think that it will make much difference in equating someone who earns $342,515 with someone who earns $34,981?

I mean, the higher paid person would pay an extra - - what... 4 or 5k?
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:38 pm



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 321):
So... now you're on the right track (unwittingly I'm sure).

I didn't say I agreed with that.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 321):
How, exactly, do you figure that Obama's tax plan is socialist?

Tax rates go up depending on the week and whatever rolling average Sen. Obama decides on, somewhere between 150k and 250k while lowering rates for those below that and adding to the EIC. That is the beginning of a socialist system of confiscatory tax rates.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 320):
But then we have a fair idea of relative costs just from comparing the system costs and either we are getting our health extraordinarily cheaply, or the US system is taking you all for a bit of a ride.

Seem like there are a fair amount of people taking a long ride to get to the U.S. medical system.

http://townhall.com/columnists/Walte.../2008/10/22/affordable_health_care


According to Michael Tanner's "The Grass Is Not Always Greener," in Cato Institute's Policy Analysis (March 18, 2008), the Mayo Clinic treats more than 7,000 foreign patients a year, the Cleveland Clinic 5,000, Johns Hopkins Hospital treats 6,000, and one out of three Canadian physicians send a patient to the U.S. for treatment each year. If socialized medicine is so great, why do Canadian physicians send patients to the U.S. and the Canadian government spends over $1 billion each year on health care in our country?


Meanwhile, HidinBiden refuses to debate his Senate challenger. That's right, Senate challenger.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081031/ap_on_el_se/biden_senate
 
StuckInCA
Posts: 1661
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:56 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 322):
Tax rates go up depending on the week and whatever rolling average Sen. Obama decides on, somewhere between 150k and 250k while lowering rates for those below that and adding to the EIC. That is the beginning of a socialist system of confiscatory tax rates.

But don't the higher earners already pay a higher rate than the lower earners? Isn't there already an EIC?

How is this the "beginning?" Either we're already socialist or we aren't. If we aren't then Obama's proposed tax changes are not.

Where would you draw the "socialism" line? If Obama increased taxes by .0001% on earnings over $1,000,000,000, would that be socialism? Even if that were the tax rate for them a few years ago?

The reality of the fact is that there's a huge gray area in the middle and this tiny nudge really doesn't change whether we are or aren't socialist. The cries of socialism are just crap political propaganda.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:12 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 322):
Tax rates go up depending on the week and whatever rolling average Sen. Obama decides on, somewhere between 150k and 250k while lowering rates for those below that and adding to the EIC. That is the beginning of a socialist system of confiscatory tax rates.

So we were a Socialist country during the Reagan era and the time prior to that?

Just curious.

Tugg
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:30 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 319):
Which is paid for by capitalist for profit employers. Fancy that.

Actually, no it was a government employer when the injury occurred...all toll 5 different procedures, I wouldn't want to guess what the total bill has come to....

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 319):
Which you should know about an be prepared for.

Right, you got a couple of million dollars lying around in case you need a heart transplant or something else not covered by your insurance..

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 312):
Sounds like that's kind of a result of Ford's decision to focus more on producing SUVs

But then Toyota is retooling their San Antonio plant from pickups to Prius, yet they managed to keep everyone on the payroll, conducting training etc.
 
PSA727
Posts: 921
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:55 pm



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 313):
Where did you get that number from, 60-70% of your income? And why is socialism going to kill the entrepreneur spirit? There are several successful social democracies and guess what, there's quite a lot of innovation going on in those countries

It would be about 40% for Fed IncTax, 6.25% Social Security Tax (employee contribution),
Medicare Tax (which is about 2% I believe), and then state and local taxes. So the amount
of taxes would be well over 50%.

And the innovation that goes on in other successful countries is due to the fact that their
governments spend much more on R&D. However, the patents for these innovations are
usually sold to companies abroad, who in turn produce the product. Just because something
is made by an American company doesn't mean that it was designed in the U.S.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 325):
But then Toyota is retooling their San Antonio plant from pickups to Prius, yet they managed to keep everyone on the payroll, conducting training etc.

That is credit to Toyota and its adaptability. And aren't Toyota's U.S. plants non-union?
 
RJdxer
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:09 pm



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 323):
How is this the "beginning?" Either we're already socialist or we aren't. If we aren't then Obama's proposed tax changes are not.



Quoting Tugger (Reply 324):
So we were a Socialist country during the Reagan era and the time prior to that?

Not this s--t again. The EIC is there to help people whose income falls below the poverty line. That is not socialist since as soon as your income reaches a certain level you lose the credit.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 323):
The cries of socialism are just crap political propaganda.

Sure it is. Just like the cries from the left that all the right is doing is spreading fear and lies.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 323):
If Obama increased taxes by .0001% on earnings over $1,000,000,000, would that be socialism?

Depends on what is done with the money. If it is used to give those above the poverty line help they don't need then yes it is.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 323):
The reality of the fact is that there's a huge gray area

Only in your brain.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 325):
Actually, no it was a government employer when the injury occurred...all toll 5 different procedures, I wouldn't want to guess what the total bill has come to....

The vast majority of Workers comp money comes from private business. Government employees benefit from that by the government shuffling money around on paper. The final cost of your procedures will probably end up being far less than the original bill once Workers Comp adjusters go to work. Part of the problem with health care providers is that if the procedure costs $100 they've gotten smart enough to bill $200 and settle for the $100.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 325):
Right, you got a couple of million dollars lying around in case you need a heart transplant or something else not covered by your insurance..

Heart transplants are covered under my insurance. So are kidneys. Know your plan, that way you don't get surprised.
 
StuckInCA
Posts: 1661
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:21 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 327):
Heart transplants are covered under my insurance

What's your lifetime maximum coverage? Many policies it's $1 million for the whole family. Lifetime.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 327):
Not this s--t again. The EIC is there to help people whose income falls below the poverty line. That is not socialist since as soon as your income reaches a certain level you lose the credit.

Sorry that your panties are in a knot.

So, is this your personal definition of socialism? Or is it Hannity's or Limbaugh's?

What about how Alaska taxes corporations and distributes that to citizens? Is that communism? It seems that if a Democrat proposed that you'd surely classify it that way.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 327):
Just like the cries from the left that all the right is doing is spreading fear and lies.

That is largely their strategy though. Note their new focus on Khalidi.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 327):
Only in your brain.

Nice "under the radar" personal attack. Since brain matter is gray I don't find it too insulting.
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:21 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 327):

Heart transplants are covered under my insurance. So are kidneys. Know your plan, that way you don't get surprised.

Just because your (and most private) insurance covers transplants doesn't mean that you would be eligible and your insurance company or transplant center can turn you down if you don't meet the basic guidelines..but the point is that a family shouldn't have to go bankrupt/lose their home, due to a medical condition beyond their control. A progressive government working for the best for both the individual and business wouldn't allow this to happen.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 327):
Just like the cries from the left that all the right is doing is spreading fear and lies.

Exhibit A: Elizabeth Dole

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 327):
The vast majority of Workers comp money comes from private business. Government employees benefit from that by the government shuffling money around on paper. The final cost of your procedures will probably end up being far less than the original bill once Workers Comp adjusters go to work. Part of the problem with health care providers is that if the procedure costs $100 they've gotten smart enough to bill $200 and settle for the $100.

So now you're an expert on Worker's Compensation. Actually the providers in the Golden State love workers compensation cases because the pay-out is much higher than private insurance. Take the same doctors, with a Federal Worker's Compensation claim, with the poor payout, length of time to get reimbursed, and the paperwork involved they wouldn't touch it with a 10ft pole.
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Sat Nov 01, 2008 1:03 am



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 328):
Many policies it's $1 million for the whole family. Lifetime.

I'm good. I've made sure of that.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 328):
What about how Alaska taxes corporations and distributes that to citizens?

Don't know anything about it since I don't live there. Regardless that is the State of Alaska. When someone proposes it for the United States of America then I will consider the consequences. However as you put it, if it coming from coroporations and not the individual it is not communist.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 328):
Nice "under the radar" personal attack.

An observation, not an attack.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 329):
A progressive government working for the best for both the individual and business wouldn't allow this to happen.

So the nanny state is your cup of tea. Sorry, I beleive different.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 329):
So now you're an expert on Worker's Compensation.

Nope, but as a manager of several businesses I've had to deal with Workers Comp more than a few times. Despite the payout being higher I would venture to guess it is still nowhere near the original bill after the adjusters have finished.


Well well well, either you see it our way or your off the plane.

http://www.drudgereport.com/flashopp.htm

Now with all that money that the Obama campaign has you would think they could rent a bigger plane. Guess the all inclusive tent isn't so large after all.

Guess maybe he's being just a little "selfish" with his campaign cash?
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Sat Nov 01, 2008 1:22 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 330):
Despite the payout being higher I would venture to guess it is still nowhere near the original bill after the adjusters have finished.

See you're guessing..having worked for State Compensation Fund in California for awhile, after I graduated from college, I remember the payout being 100% of the bill.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 330):
So the nanny state is your cup of tea.

You want an authoritarian government. I'll take a nanny state with personal responsiblity that takes care of it's citizen's health care like every other western country any day.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 330):
Don't know anything about it since I don't live there

It's called the oil money check that the citizens received..Remember Palin raised the taxes on the oil companies in order to give more money to the citizens.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 330):
http://www.drudgereport.com/flashopp.htm

How many times have the Drudge Report been wrong recently?
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:24 am



Quoting AirCop (Reply 331):
See you're guessing

Well since I don't live in the state you do that would be a given. Based on my experience Workers Comp rarely pays the initial bill. It is amended down after negotiation.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 331):
You want an authoritarian government.

Say what? You don't read my posts then do you.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 331):
I'll take a nanny state with personal responsiblity

Sorry, can't have both.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 331):
It's called the oil money check that the citizens received

If that is indeed what he is referring to then we've discussed this as well. The oil is on state owned land. That means the citizens own it. The oil company is paying fee to recover the oil and then resell it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. On the small parcels of land that belong to the Native American tribes they have the same arrangement only they get all the money.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 331):
How many times have the Drudge Report been wrong recently?

Who cares, the fact here is that the Obama campaign is kicking three newspapers that endorsed his rival off the plane to make room for people who support him. As stated the all inclusive tent is not quite as big as we thought.
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:39 am

RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:39 am



Quoting AirCop (Reply 331):
You want an authoritarian government.



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 332):
Say what? You don't read my posts then do you.

The way I read your posts, you're have the following behavior traits:
-you're aggressive on behalf of authority
-intolerant of other views
-bullying
-highly self-righteous
-you're politically and economically conservative

These are all the traits one finds in a person that follows authoritarian leaders, therefore the basis for my opinion.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 332):
Who cares, the fact here is that the Obama campaign is kicking three newspapers

Perhaps you should have read the Dallas Morning News account of the action, before making an untrue statement..
http://trailblazersblog.dallasnews.c...he-dallas-morning-news-and-th.html
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 22324
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:29 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 332):
Who cares, the fact here is that the Obama campaign is kicking three newspapers that endorsed his rival off the plane to make room for people who support him.

You know that if you present a fact in a misleading manner it's a lie, right?

That's what you just did.
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:50 am



Quoting AirCop (Reply 333):
Perhaps you should have read the Dallas Morning News account of the action, before making an untrue statement..



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 334):
You know that if you present a fact in a misleading manner it's a lie, right?



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 332):
the fact here is that the Obama campaign is kicking three newspapers that endorsed his rival off the plane to make room for people who support him.

Exactly where is the untrue statement? Have or have not the NY Post, the Washington Times, and the Dallas Morning News been told they no longer have seats on the plane? The NY Post, the Washington Times, and the Dallas Morning News have all endorsed Sen. John McCain. The reporter from the Dallas Morning News states that the editorial board decision was not something he had anything to do with. He says he "doesn't think" the editorial decision had anything to do with it but has no evidence to back that up. No newspapers that support Sen. Obama have been booted. The Obama campaign has declined to add a second plane even though it is obvious that they can afford it. Something I didn't know until I read the article, Sen. Obama has not given a press conference in over a month. So much for bashing Gov. Palin about her lack of access.
 
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Tugger
Posts: 11863
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Sat Nov 01, 2008 4:52 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 327):
Quoting Tugger (Reply 324):
So we were a Socialist country during the Reagan era and the time prior to that?

Not this s--t again. The EIC is there to help people whose income falls below the poverty line. That is not socialist since as soon as your income reaches a certain level you lose the credit.

I was not asking to be difficult. I was simply trying to see what you consider socialism. And from your statement it appears that graduated taxes are not something that you consider as such. Thanks.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 330):
Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 328):
Many policies it's $1 million for the whole family. Lifetime.

I'm good. I've made sure of that.

So the person who can't afford insurance to the level you have just does not deserve it because they can't pay for it? To those that can afford: Health; to those that can't ......

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 330):
Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 328):
Nice "under the radar" personal attack.

An observation, not an attack.

It was a mean spirited comment at the very least. To say otherwise is disingenuous.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 330):
Quoting AirCop (Reply 329):
A progressive government working for the best for both the individual and business wouldn't allow this to happen.

So the nanny state is your cup of tea. Sorry, I beleive different.

So you must consider highways and air traffic control and FDIC insurance to be nannyish.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 330):
Well well well, either you see it our way or your off the plane.

http://www.drudgereport.com/flashopp.htm

Now with all that money that the Obama campaign has you would think they could rent a bigger plane. Guess the all inclusive tent isn't so large after all.

Guess maybe he's being just a little "selfish" with his campaign cash?

You don't know how that process works do you? The campaign's don't pay for it, the news services that fly on them do. If there are not enough additional reporters to fill and pay for a second plane, then one is not made available.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 335):
Quoting RJdxer (Reply 332):
the fact here is that the Obama campaign is kicking three newspapers that endorsed his rival off the plane to make room for people who support him.

Exactly where is the untrue statement?

It is not true here: " to make room for people who support him". If you read the story in the DMN (the service that was kicked off and so would have an axe to grind if there was one)

Quote:
We've asked the Obama campaign to clarify why we will soon no longer have a seat on their plane. Campaign spokeswoman Linda Douglass told our Todd Gillman that "we just had to make some last-minute decisions" because the candidate's wife, Michelle, is coming on board, meaning more space for her staff and the Secret Service.

Additionally if your statement were to be true then the following wouldn't be:

Quote:
The News' recommendation of John McCain had nothing to do with our removal, Douglass insisted. "There are news organizations, as you look around you on the plane, whose editorial boards are never friendly to Senator Obama and whose coverage has been downright unfriendly, and they're on the plane." She didn't name names, but still on board are Fox News, considered to lean to the right, and the Wall Street Journal, whose editorial board is strongly conservative.

Tugg
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:16 am



Quoting Tugger (Reply 336):
And from your statement it appears that graduated taxes are not something that you consider as such. Thanks.

Correct. Government use of income taxation for the express purpose of redistribution is wrong.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 336):
So the person who can't afford insurance to the level you have just does not deserve it because they can't pay for it?

There is a lot of things I'd like to have but cannot afford. Why shouldn't the government provide them for me since wealthy people have them? BTW, exactly where did you pick up this piece of paper that says everything in life will be fair? Exactly where in our Constitution does it say your life will be equally as enjoyable as Bill Gates? That the government is responsible for making it so?

Quoting Tugger (Reply 336):
It was a mean spirited comment at the very least.

I give what I get.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 336):
So you must consider highways and air traffic control and FDIC insurance to be nannyish.

No, because they benefit all citizens equally. Under a fair tax system all citizens would pay an equal share unless they fall below the poverty line.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 336):
The campaign's don't pay for it, the news services that fly on them do.

Incorrect. The campaigns pay for them and charge the news services accordingly.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 336):
If there are not enough additional reporters to fill and pay for a second plane, then one is not made available.

In the article linked the Obama spokesman does not say that they can't afford another airplane, only that it slows the campaign down.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 336):
Additionally if your statement were to be true then the following wouldn't be:

The question still stands, which news papers, or media outlets that endorsed Sen. Obama are being kicked off the plane? Of the three being kicked off what do they have in common?
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 22324
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:09 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 335):

Exactly where is the untrue statement? Have or have not the NY Post, the Washington Times, and the Dallas Morning News been told they no longer have seats on the plane?

The untruth is the implication that it was done BECAUSE they endorsed McCain.

But that's OK, RJ. Feign innocence. I see through it. So do the rest of us.
 
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Dreadnought
Posts: 10201
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RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:15 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 338):
The untruth is the implication that it was done BECAUSE they endorsed McCain.

Clearly that is exactly why they did it.

After Joe the Plumber, we have Cory the Driller:

http://stix1972.typepad.com/stix_blog/2008/10/meet-cory-the-d.html

Quote:
Mr. Obama,

Given the uproar about the simple question asked you by Joe the plumber, and the persecution that has been heaped on him because he dared to question you, I find myself motivated to say a few things to you myself. While Joe aspires to start a business someday, I already have started not one, but 4 businesses. But first, let me introduce myself. You can call me “Cory the well driller”. I am a 54-year-old high school graduate. I didn’t go to college like you, I was too ready to go “conquer the world” when I finished high school. 25 years ago at age 29, I started my own water well drilling business at a time when the economy here in East Texas was in a tailspin from the crash of the early 80’s oil boom. I didn’t get any help from the government, nor did I look for any. I borrowed what I could from my sister, my uncle, and even the pawnshop and managed to scrape together a homemade drill rig and a few tools to do my first job. My businesses did not start not a result of privilege. It is the result of my personal drive, personal ambition, self-discipline, self reliance, and a determination to treat my customers fairly. From the very start my business provided one other (than myself) East Texan a full time job. I couldn’t afford a backhoe the first few years (something every well drilling business had), so I and my helper had to dig the mud pits that are necessary for each and every job with hand shovels. I had to use my 10-year-old, ½-ton pickup truck for my water tank truck (normally a job for at least a 2 ton truck).

A year and a half after I started the business, I scraped together a 20% down payment to get a modest bank loan and bought a (28 year) old, worn out, slightly bigger drilling rig to allow me to drill the deeper water wells in my area. I spent the next few years drilling wells with the rig while simultaneously rebuilding it between jobs. Through these years I never knew from one month to the next if I would have any work or be able to pay the bills. I got behind on my income taxes one year, and spent the next two years paying that back (with penalty and interest) while keeping up with ongoing taxes. I got behind on my water well supply bill 2 different years (way behind the second time… $80,000.00), and spent over a year paying it back (each time) while continuing to pay for ongoing supplies C.O.D. Of course, the personal stress endured through these experiences and years is hard to measure. I do have a stent in my heart now to memorialize it all.

I spent the next 10 years developing the reputation for being the most competent and most honest water well driller in East Texas. 2 years along the way, I hired another full time employee for the drilling business so that we could provide full time water well pump service as well as the well drilling. Also, 3 years along the path, I bought a water well screen service machine from a friend, starting business # 2. 5 years later I made a business loan for $100,000.00 to build a new, higher production, computer controlled screen service machine. I had designed the machine myself, and it didn’t work out for 3 years so I had to make the loan payments without the benefit of any added income from the new machine. No government program was there to help me with the payments, or to help me sleep at night, as I lay awake wondering how I would solve my machine problems or pay my bills. Finally, after 3 years, I got the screen machine working properly, and that provided another full time job for an East Texan in the screen service business.

2 years after that, I made another business loan, this time for $250,000.00, to buy another used drilling rig and all the support equipment needed to run another, larger, drill rig. This provided another 2 full time jobs for East Texans. Again, I spent a couple of years not knowing if I had made a smart move, or a move that would bankrupt me. For the third time in 13 years, I had placed everything I owned on the line, risking everything, in order to build a business.
A couple of years into this, I came up with a bright idea for a new kind of mud pump, a fundamentally necessary pump used on water well drill rigs. I spent my entire life savings to date (just $30,000.00), building a prototype of the pump and took it to the national water well convention to show it off. Customers immediately started coming out of the woodworks to buy the pumps, but there was a problem. I had depleted my assets making the prototype, and nobody would make me a business loan to start production of the new pumps. With several deposits for pump orders in hand, and nowhere to go, I finally started applying for as many credit card as I could find and took cash withdrawals on these cards to the tune of over $150,000.00 (including modest loans from my dear sister and brother), to get this 3rd business going.

Yes, once again, I had everything hanging over the line in an effort to start another business. I had never manufactured anything, and I had to design and bring into production a complex hydraulic machine from an untested prototype to a reliable production model (in six months). How many nights I lay awake wondering if I had just made the paramount mistake of my life I cannot tell you, but there were plenty. I managed to get the pumps into production, which immediately created another 2 full time jobs in East Texas. Some of the models in the first year suffered from quality issues due to the poor workmanship of one of my key suppliers, so an employee and I (another East Texan employed) had to drive across the country to repair customers’ pumps, practically from coast to coast. I stood behind the product, and made payments to all the credit cards that had financed me (and my brother and sister). I spent the next 5 years improving and refining the product, building a reputation for the pump and the company, working to get the pump into drill rig manufacturers’ product lines, and paying back credit cards. During all this time I continued to manage a growing water well business that was now operating 3 drill rig crews, and 2 well service crews. Also, the screen service business continued to grow. No government programs were there to help me, Mr. Obama, but that’s ok, I didn’t expect any, nor did I want any. I was too busy fighting to make success happen to sit around waiting for the government to help me.

Now, we have been manufacturing the mud pumps for 7 years, my combined businesses employ 32 full time employees, and distribute $5,000,000.00 annually through the local economy. Now, just 4 months ago I borrowed $1,254,000.00, purchasing computer controlled machining equipment to start my 4th business, a production machine shop. The machine shop will serve the mud pump company so that we can better manufacture our pumps that are being shipped worldwide. Of course, the machine shop will also do work for outside companies as well. This has already produced 2 more full time jobs, and 2 more should develop out of it in the next few months. This should work out, but if it doesn’t it will be because you, and the other professional politicians like yourself, will have destroyed our country’s’ (and the world) economy with your meddling with mortgage loan programs through your liberal manipulation and intimidation of loaning institutions to make sure that unqualified borrowers could get mortgages. You see, at the very time when I couldn’t get a business loan to get my mud pumps into production, you were working with Acorn and the Community Reinvestment Act programs to make sure that unqualified borrowers could buy homes with no down payment, and even no credit or worse yet, bad credit. Even the infamous, liberal, Ninja loans (No Income, No Job or Assets). While these unqualified borrowers were enjoying unrealistically low interest rates, I was paying 22% to 24% interest on the credit cards that I had used to provide me the funds for the mud pump business that has created jobs for more East Texans. It’s funny, because after 25 years of turning almost every dime of extra money back into my businesses to grow them, it has been only in the last two years that I have finally made enough money to be able to put a little away for retirement, and now the value of that has dropped 40% because of the policies you and your ilk have perpetrated on our country.

You see, Mr. Obama, I’m the guy you intend to raise taxes on. I’m the guy who has spent 25 years toiling and sweating, fretting and fighting, stressing and risking, to build a business and get ahead. I’m the guy who has been on the very edge of bankruptcy more than a dozen times over the last 25 years, and all the while creating more and more jobs for East Texans who didn’t want to take a risk, and wouldn’t demand from themselves what I have demanded from myself. I’m the guy you characterize as “the Americans who can afford it the most” that you believe should be taxed more to provide income redistribution “to spread the wealth” to those who have never toiled, sweated, fretted, fought, stressed, or risked anything. You want to characterize me as someone who has enjoyed a life of privilege and who needs to pay a higher percentage of my income than those who have bought into your entitlement culture. I resent you, Mr. Obama, as I resent all who want to use class warfare as a tool to advance their political career. What’s worse, each year more Americans buy into your liberal entitlement culture, and turn to the government for their hope of a better life instead of themselves. Liberals are succeeding through more than 40 years of collaborative effort between the predominant liberal media, and liberal indoctrination programs in the public school systems across our land.

What is so terribly sad about this is this. America was made great by people who embraced the one-time American culture of self-reliance, self-motivation, self-determination, self-discipline, personal betterment, and hard work, risk taking. A culture built around the concept that success was in reach on every able bodied American who would strive for it. Each year that less Americans embrace that culture, we all descend together. We descend down the socialist path that has brought country after country ultimately to bitter and unremarkable states. If you and your liberal comrades in the media and school systems would spend half as much effort cultivating a culture of can-do across America as you do cultivating your entitlement culture, we could see Americans at large embracing the conviction that they can elevate themselves through personal betterment, personal achievement, and self reliance. You see, when people embrace such ideals, they act on them. When people act on such ideals, they succeed. All of America could find herself elevating instead of deteriorating. But that would eliminate the need for liberal politicians, wouldn’t it, Mr. Obama? The country would not need you if the country was convinced that problem solving was best left with individuals instead of the government. You and all your liberal comrades have got a vested interested in creating a dependent class in our country. It is the very business of liberals to create an ever-expanding dependence on government. What’s remarkable is that you, who have never produced a job in your life, are going to tax me to take more of my money and give it to people who wouldn’t need my money if they would get off their entitlement mentality asses and apply themselves at work, demand more from themselves, and quit looking to liberal politicians to raise their station in life.
You see, I know because I’ve had them work for me before. Hundreds of them over these 25 years. People who simply will not show up to work on time. People who just will not work 5 days in a week, much less, 6 days. People always looking for a way to put less effort out. People who actually tell me that they would do more if I just would first pay them more. People who take off work to sit in government offices to apply to get free government handouts (gee, I wonder how things would have turned out for them if they had spent that time earning money and pleasing their employer?). You see, all of this comes from your entitlement mentality culture.

Oh, I know you will say I am uncompassionate. Sorry, Mr. Obama, wrong again. You see, I’ve seen what the average percentage of your income has been given to charities over the years of 2000 to 2004 (ignoring the years you started running for office - can you pronounce “politically motivated”); you averaged of less than 1% annually. And your running mate, Joe Biden, averaged less than ¼% of his annual income in charitable contributions over the last 10 years. Like so many liberals, the two of you want to give to the needy, just as long as it is someone else’s money you are giving to them. I won’t say what I have given to charities over the last 25 years, but the percentage is several times more than you or Joe Biden (don’t you just hate goggle?). Tell me again how you feel my pain.

In short, Mr. Obama, your political philosophies represent everything that is wrong with our country. You represent the culture of government dependence instead of self-reliance; Entitlement mentality instead of personal achievement; Penalization of the successful to reward the unmotivated; Political correctness instead of open mindedness and open debate. If you are successful, you may preside over the final transformation of America from being the greatest and most self-reliant culture on earth, to just another country of whiners and wimps, who sit around looking to the government to solve their problems. Like all of western Europe. All countries on the decline. All countries that, because of liberal socialistic mentalities, have a little less to offer mankind every year.

God help us…

Cory Miller
just a ordinary, extraordinary American, the way a lot of Americans used to be.

P.S. Yes, Mr. Obama, I am a real American… www.cmillerdrilling.com


And on the Obama side, we have this dimwit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6ikOxi9yYk

Quote:
“I never thought this day would happen. I won’t have to work on puttin’ gas in my car. I won’t have to work at payin’ my mortgage. You know. If I help him, he’s gonna help me.”

 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:16 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 338):
The untruth is the implication that it was done BECAUSE they endorsed McCain.

And your proof that is wasn't done for that reason is?
 
mdsh00
Posts: 4060
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 11:28 am

RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:08 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 339):
And on the Obama side, we have this dimwit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6ikO...i9yYk

Yeah because there are no dimwit supporters of McCain/Palin right? Every Republican has well thought out and intelligent reasons for voting McCain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjxzmaXAg9E

"Look at his name?" WTF?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fieGfc6DL7k

"Because he was born in Kenya?"

"Obama is an Arab?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRqcfqiXCX0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fieGfc6DL7k

Dimwit supporters exist on both sides. Get over it.

Tuesday cannot come fast enough, regardless of who wins. This election has really brought out the ugly side of this country.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 22324
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:42 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 340):

And your proof that is wasn't done for that reason is?

Did you read the link that was posted or are you still in that mode of being uninterested in such concepts as "truth" and "facts"?

Wait, who am I talking to? Of COURSE you're uninterested in truth and facts. You're RJdxer! Why would you even bother to read an article that might change your mind?

Quoting AirCop (Reply 333):

Perhaps you should have read the Dallas Morning News account of the action, before making an untrue statement..
http://trailblazersblog.dallasnews.c....html

READ, RJdxer. READ. You might learn something. If you're interested in learning.
 
RightRudder
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:04 am

RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:46 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 342):
Did you read the link that was posted or are you still in that mode of being uninterested in such concepts as "truth" and "facts"?

Don't believe the liberal media.
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:59 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 342):
Did you read the link that was posted or are you still in that mode of being uninterested in such concepts as "truth" and "facts"?

Yes, I've even made reference to it in reply 335 which you obviously did not bother to read elsewise you would have read the following:

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 335):
The reporter from the Dallas Morning News states that the editorial board decision was not something he had anything to do with. He says he "doesn't think" the editorial decision had anything to do with it but has no evidence to back that up. No newspapers that support Sen. Obama have been booted.

which I could have only gotten from the linked story. Again, what proof, other than Obama's spokesperson is there that these three papers were not singled out due to their endorsements of McCain? The reporter in the story doesn't have have any and neither do you.
 
User avatar
mbmbos
Posts: 2988
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 4:16 am

RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:09 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 344):
Again, what proof, other than Obama's spokesperson is there that these three papers were not singled out due to their endorsements of McCain?

They need not provide any proof. They are not the ones making accusations.

It's like asking a man for proof that he doesn't beat his wife.

It's illogical reasoning.
 
PSA727
Posts: 921
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:49 am

RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:46 pm

Well it looks like the cost of Obama's Berlin escapade is quite large: $700,000 for sound,
stage, and lighting. And then there's the cost of the free brauts and beer. So it looks like it's
well over $1 million for that "beautiful" speech to a foreign audience. At least Sarah Palin's
wardrobe purchases gave money to American businesses.

Oh, and it seems that the income tax hike level has been reduced now to $120K. Anyone
want to pick the date when it goes below $100K. YES WE CAN!!!
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:39 am

RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Sat Nov 01, 2008 10:07 pm



Quoting PSA727 (Reply 346):
it seems that the income tax hike level has been reduced now to $120K.

Source please..  confused 
 
PSA727
Posts: 921
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:49 am

RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Sat Nov 01, 2008 10:15 pm



Quoting AirCop (Reply 347):
Quoting PSA727 (Reply 346):
it seems that the income tax hike level has been reduced now to $120K.

Source please..

Bill Richardson, speaking on behalf of the Obama campaign in a radio interview on
Thursday (i believe).
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Official U.S. Election - Obama/Biden Plans & Policies

Sat Nov 01, 2008 10:40 pm



Quoting PSA727 (Reply 348):
Bill Richardson, speaking on behalf of the Obama campaign in a radio interview on
Thursday (i believe).

And the Obama campaign quickly put the wet blanket on that one.

http://www.abqjournal.com/abqnews/in...content&task=view&id=9227&Itemid=2

Interesting though that the newspaper now says that Obama is saying $200k or less, now what does that do to Joe the Plumbers ambitions? Of course HidinBiden is again off campaigning by himself, kept away from reporters and flying via teleprompter.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081101/...nm/us_usa_politics_biden_message_2

And to those who complained about Gov. Palin not being accessible to the media...

On the trail, Biden is kept largely away from the small group of reporters traveling with him and has not held a news conference since early September.

True he does do one on ones and I'm willing to bet that the Obama campaign staff cringes at every one.
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